Dark Winds - General Discussion

[pasdetrois]

On 8/14/2023 at 9:55 PM, sugarbaker design said:

I'm betting the old Navaho lady is alive.

Me too. When they first met, I immediately thought "my money's on Navajo grandma."

I'm disappointed in this second season, although I will watch out of loyalty and for weekly exposure to the beauty and culture and the Native actors. There are too many sub-plots and I feel like they race from scene to scene without doing them justice or integrating them into the overall story.

For example, the young new mother barely appears in this season. And they use a kind of cultural references checklist. Cradle board, check. Medicine, check. Hogan, check. Sprinkling pollen, check. Ceremonies, check. (Although Emma repeatedly said they needed a ceremony, and then we never saw it.)

I appreciate the cultural references very much but they are handled clumsily.

I wonder if the actors' busy post-COVID schedules are partly responsible.

Quote

They keep drinking rc cola.

I watch a Navajo YouTube series "Natives React" and they claim it's "Bepsi."

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by pasdetrois

[nachomama]

They do say bepsi and go to the libarry and puppies are pubbies. I don’t see too many pointing with their lips. Like when they ask “which way did he go?” They point with their lips “ober derr” they have used “skoden”( “let’s go then”) on reservation dogs. Been waiting on both of those on this show. 

[possibilities]

This week on Adventures of Navaho and the White People Who Dominate Their Focus:

Leaphorn is thwarted by the laziness of the FBI and the psychological games of the psychopathic white guy he captured for them.

Psychological damage and thus motivation of Psychopathic White Guy interest the writers more than anything else! 

All The Navaho Ladies Except Emma trust and/or are enamored of the White Lady who wants to get them to tell her about their pain. Will Emma be proved right, and the White Lady is an exploitive piece of shit and All The Other Navaho Ladies are just naive dummies? Will the rest of the Navaho Ladies be shown to be savvy while Emma is just a bitter old bag? Will we ever get a story that doesn't make the White Lady the fulcrum on which the Local Ladies turn?

Chee risks his life to save the Sad White Lady With the Oxygen Tank And A Hateful Abusive Husband! He could be helping Leaphorn, but he prefers to take stupid jobs for the White Folks! Looking at the Psychopathic White Guy Who Almost Killed HIm is enough! Back to the White Folks, stat! Even though Leaphorn could use his help! He doesn't want to work for Leaphorn! Why the fuck not? Only The Shadow Knows!

Oh yeah, Manuelito wants to work for the White Border Patrol but will probably stay on the Rez to look after the Silent Family Of Sad Guy Who Got Drafted! And she dated Freaking Elvis Pressley! And nobody knows, even though she has his picture on display and will tell anyone who asks why! Now Chee has her secret! They will flirt but she's still mad at him for reasons unexplained! He came back to the Rez after working for the Feds and now she wants to leave the Rez to work for the Feds herself! So why is she mad at him, for Godsake?!

And hey! There was an eclipse! This is how they got Chee and Manuelito alone together to talk about Elvis! Because God Forbid they not put another White Guy into the story for no reason!!

P.S. Lots of Native folks have been in the military. Bet you whiteys didn't know that! Show just wanted to mention it in passing, and not get into that guy's story or whether he could get a deferment because of his family's dependence on him, or why not, or anything else about him until, probably, he comes home in a body bag. One slow Indian Tear Rolling Down A Cheek Like In That Stupid Commercial From When I Was A Kid, because misery porn is all the characterization this guy is gonna get this season.

Please, AMC, tell the people making this show to bring back the brains they had in Season 1, and stop this bullshit.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by possibilities

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

Please, AMC, tell the people making this show to bring back the brains they had in Season 1, and stop this bullshit.

Better yet, ditch the show, read Hillerman's books.  They are so much better than this.

[nachomama]

Not only do many serve, it’s a staple. In most high schools the asvab (military) test is optional. We all took it. Because generally college is not “expected”. And quite frankly every Navajo I’ve ever known are very freakin patriotic. They did mention the code talker guy  and obviously very huge thanks to them. But holy shit yes, I’m always amazed at how patriotic they are considering how much has been done to them. The most recent election I read about them riding their horses to the polls because is isn’t easy for them to vote. They have P.O. Boxes and rural route addresses. But they saddled up and 97% voted. 

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

One slow Indian Tear Rolling Down A Cheek Like In That Stupid Commercial From When I Was A Kid

You mean the ad with the Sicilian guy, right?  🙄

42 minutes ago, nachomama said:

Not only do many serve, it’s a staple. In most high schools the asvab (military) test is optional. We all took it. Because generally college is not “expected”.

Most of the AI/ANs I’ve worked with were past military - many because if a college scholarship wasn’t an option, military service was the only guaranteed way to get a job off-rez.

 

42 minutes ago, nachomama said:

The most recent election I read about them riding their horses to the polls because is isn’t easy for them to vote. They have P.O. Boxes and rural route addresses. But they saddled up and 97% voted. 

And not just Navajo; over the course of the last few years, the South Dakota legislature has gone full-court press on attempts to disenfranchise American Indians - and nontraditional mailing addresses have been one of their primary tools to do so.

[Zaffy]

Just do not take for granted that whiteys know things about the Native Americans, especially the younger whiteys.
I have to admit, that most of my initial knowledge did come from Tv and movies, ok I am European, but still.. For example, I had no clue about Navajo in WWII before I watched X-Files. Or the horrible boarding schools that I basically learned about recently from another series. And I also did not know about white ppl sterilizing the women before Dark Winds.
The stereotype (?) that we usually get from Tv and movies is that NA are only miserable, living in miserable rezs from previous centuries and just die from alcohol or their own hands. Not sure  how much truth is in this.
 

This season so far has been dumb. 
I really do not get the focus on the blonde dude. He is not interesting and he is not someone connected with the Native Americans, just a random assassin/bomber  hired to do a dirty job.
The Vines fella seems much more interesting, especially how a white man "embraces" whatever Indian culture he likes and plays it some kind of spiritual leader and even many natives follow him! That would be a good topic to explore, not the mindless "western" duels between Leaphorn and the white Terminator.

[tennisgurl]

This season is so weird, I am trying to keep up but its hard to get interested to turn on a new episode. There are way too many subplots, most of which are boring and don't have much to do with anything, and there are too many characters that I just cannot be invested in.

I know that last season ended on a pretty meh note and also ended up struggling with its villains not just being these seemingly unstoppable forces, but this season feels like it has totally different writers. 

[possibilities]

5 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

read Hillerman's books

I've read a few over the years and am thinking about doing a deep dive into all of them. Does it matter if you read them in order? If not, are there any folks would recommend first/best? The ones I've already read were kind of randomly selected.

[Jodithgrace]

They should be read in order because the the characters do grow and change over the years. The books are really good, and I feel like Anne Hillerman has done a respectable job of carrying on for her father, though her books are more Bernie centric than her father’s were. That doesn’t bother me though, since I love Bernie and Chee together. 
The Blessing Way is the very first book of the series, but you won’t recognize Jim Chee. Lol

[sugarbaker design]

5 hours ago, possibilities said:

I've read a few over the years and am thinking about doing a deep dive into all of them. Does it matter if you read them in order? If not, are there any folks would recommend first/best? The ones I've already read were kind of randomly selected.

I think reading them in order is important, the first three feature Joe Leaphorn, the next three feature Jim Chee, the remaining novels features them both working as a team. I first learned of the characters individually, and then as a team.  Joe, somewhat like the Joe in DW, is older, bitter and disconnected from his culture. Jim is nothing like DWs Jim, he's deeply spiritual and respects the old ways.  My personal fave is A Thief of Time, I've read it a couple of times.  One good thing about the Hillerman novels is they're nothing like the bloated, turgid messes being published today, the first several books are 225 pps and less.

[Dowel Jones]

I have never heard of an eclipse that lasted for  an hour and change, so I looked it up.  There was a solar eclipse in 1970 (March 7) but it lasted just over three minutes.  Hardly enough time for the peyote to have any real effect.  But, you know, it's part of the story.

Show of hands - how many people flashed on Silence of the Lambs when the Sheriff couldn't find his pen?  Me, at least.  Uber Blondie, of course, has skills and can pick his handcuffs with said pen, much to the discomfort of the Sheriff.  Somebody just kill him, who cares who he is working for.

Leaphorn continues to be the worst interrogator.  He's so wrapped up in the fact that Blondie killed his son he can't even think straight.  Too bad Raylan's stuck in Detroit.

[Nashville]

13 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

I have never heard of an eclipse that lasted for  an hour and change, so I looked it up.  There was a solar eclipse in 1970 (March 7) but it lasted just over three minutes.  Hardly enough time for the peyote to have any real effect.  But, you know, it's part of the story.

That 3+ minute timing is only taking the time of totality (when the moon completely blocks out the sun) into account; from First Contact (when the moon very first starts encroaching upon the sun) to Fourth Contact (when the moon completes its departure) takes about 2-1/2 hours, give or take.

https://www.exploratorium.edu/eclipse/what-to-see-during-eclipse

 

13 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Show of hands - how many people flashed on Silence of the Lambs when the Sheriff couldn't find his pen?  Me, at least. 

Not just you; Übermensch‘s escape was telegraphed a mile off.  Gordo is lucky to still have his liver intact.

[mythoughtis]

On 8/28/2023 at 8:31 AM, possibilities said:

They will flirt but she's still mad at him for reasons unexplained! He came back to the Rez after working for the Feds and now she wants to leave the Rez to work for the Feds herself! So why is she mad at him, for Godsake?!

Because he ghosted her between  last season and this one. He dated ( slept) around  and ignored her and now he wants to hook up after  Joe sent her to the hospital to get his statement after he was injured

[pasdetrois]

On 8/28/2023 at 10:36 AM, nachomama said:

I’m always amazed at how patriotic they are considering how much has been done to them.

A Native attorney explains it as: their inherent access to ancestral or reservation lands is - in cold stark terms - their most effective means of maintaining their rights as sovereign nations. Lose the land, such as to a foreign power, and they lose much of their ability to endure as nations. 

And there are internal threats. In 2020 the US Department of the Interior tried to reverse the Mashpee Wampanoag tribe's rights as a tribal nation. The tribe prevailed in court, but not without significant economic damage.

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by pasdetrois

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

A Native attorney explains it as: their inherent access to ancestral or reservation lands is - in cold stark terms - their most effective means of maintaining their rights as sovereign nations. Lose the land, such as to a foreign power, and they lose much of their ability to endure as nations. 

And there are internal threats. In 2020 the US Department of the Interior tried to reverse the Mashpee Wampanoag tribe's rights as a tribal nation. The tribe prevailed in court, but not without significant economic damage.

 

Without getting into the partisan politics of the situation - I don’t know this particular forum topic’s policy towards such discussions, and (based on past experiences in other topics) am not eager to find out - suffice it to say: depending upon the administration in power at any given time, existential threats such as this to the sovereignty of AI/AN Tribal nations are real, and ongoing.

ETA: Not just on the federal level, either.  The State of Texas has fought for years to attack the sovereignty of the Alabama-Coushatta Tribe of Texas in the courts for years, most recently in its attempts to block the Tribe from building a casino on reservation land. 
(Texas lost, btw)

Edited August 30, 2023 by Nashville

[AnimeMania]

S02.E06: Hózhó náhásdlįį (Beauty is Restored)
(Season Finale)

Leaphorn and Chee discover evidence that connects their cases, only for Leaphorn to realize justice won’t be easily served. Manuelito prepares for a big life change.

Premiere Date: Thursday, August 31, 2023   AMC/AMC+    OnDemand/Streaming 
Premiere Date: Sunday, September 3, 2023   AMC    9pm    

[nachomama]

 Only 6 episodes? I do hope it comes back for a third season but stay on track. 

[abbyzenn]

Just watched the finale and thought it's the best episode of this season (not that the bar would have been that high).   It made me think the previous episodes could have been much better - seems like alot of waste to get to the ending regarding blond killer and Mr. Vines although most of the story lines were tied up.

Unless I missed something we never do find out if the old lady survived.  And was it ever shown before that the blind lady was Emma's mother?

From the way it ended not sure if there will be a season 3 but theren't weren't any cliffhangers.  The spectactular scenery of Monument Valley got alot of attention in this episode. 

[buckboard]

abbyzenn, did you just give away a spoiler?

[proserpina65]

On 8/20/2023 at 9:22 PM, NeenerNeener said:

I couldn't figure out what was going on in that fight scene in the fog/dust...and my tv is calibrated so I could actually see what was going on in that episode of GoT where the Night King and the White Walkers stormed Winterfell.

 

ETA: I thought the old fart was going to strangle Jeri Ryan with that necklace. Glad to be wrong.

I thought I was the only one who had no problem with The Long Night.  Nice to know there's at least one other person who could see the action.

I'm finding the blond guy less interesting by the episode.  I'm more interested by Jim Chee's clients.  Also, Emma annoys me but I'm glad to see she's finally realized that her relationship with Sally was all for her benefit, not Sally's.

And while I still think Zahn McClarnon's performance is fantastic, his character's actions in the last two episodes are soooooo not Joe Leaphorn at all.  Joe is far more cerebral and methodical; Jim Chee is the one who acts more on impulse.

On 8/20/2023 at 11:01 PM, Dowel Jones said:

And, by the way, Reservation Council - buy a goddam repeater system for your radios. 

This is set in 1971 - would that have been an option then, or an affordable one at least?

On 8/21/2023 at 9:16 AM, Zaffy said:

I have no clue how this story is in the book(s), but they have definitely screwed this up in the series. 

Spoiler

In the books, Mary Landon is a teacher with whom Jim Chee is romantically involved until she finishes her term and moves back to Chicago, I think, and Joe and Emma Leaphorn never had children, so it's not bearing much resemblance at this point.  The storyline with the Vines and the killer is more like what I remember from People of Darkness.

 

On 8/21/2023 at 10:27 AM, abbyzenn said:

Why do they even have Jeri Ryan's character using oxygen?  Is there going to be some point to this?  I'm curious because I'm on oxygen 24/7 and I can't recall seeing a character on tv on oxygen in the hospital. 

Isn't she dying of cancer?  Possibly lung cancer?  I suspect caused by whatever's going on with the mine site.

[proserpina65]

On 8/28/2023 at 9:31 AM, possibilities said:

And she dated Freaking Elvis Pressley! And nobody knows, even though she has his picture on display and will tell anyone who asks why!

I'm guessing maybe she doesn't let very many people into her house so she hasn't had to explain it.  But yeah, that was a bit odd.

On 8/28/2023 at 3:52 PM, possibilities said:

I've read a few over the years and am thinking about doing a deep dive into all of them. Does it matter if you read them in order? If not, are there any folks would recommend first/best? The ones I've already read were kind of randomly selected.

A Thief of Time is my favorite and the one I recommend to people who don't care so much about reading them in order.  It's also the first one I read, entirely by accident.  (Found it in an English-language bookstore in Naxos, Greece, of all places.)  It's probably a good idea to read them in order, though, to get a better sense of each man's character, but if you want to start the first novel to feature both Leaphorn and Chee, that's Skinwalkers.

Back to the show: are we supposed to know that lady whom Jim Chee was trying to protect from the muscle?  He addressed her by name but I didn't recognize her from earlier episodes.

 

[Nashville]

On 8/21/2023 at 9:27 AM, abbyzenn said:

Why do they even have Jeri Ryan's character using oxygen?  Is there going to be some point to this?  I'm curious because I'm on oxygen 24/7 and I can't recall seeing a character on tv on oxygen in the hospital. 

I think the oxygen tank is supposed to be an allegory - both of Rosemary Vines’s life specifically, and the lives of her and B.J. in general:

• The general impression given of the Vines’s lives when they were young is that of a couple of rich jet-setters: lots of money, lots of partying with others of their social set, lots of fooling around - Rosemary with her local young studs du jour while B.J. was on his “hunting trips”, and I wouldn’t be surprised if B.J. wasn’t shooting off more than his rifle on those same trips.
• Those glory days are long past both of them now, though; they’re both in their 50s now and childless (VD or some other cause of sterility in their backstory, maybe?) - which means (for Rosemary at least) a family of their own is no longer an option, and hasn’t been for some time now.  
• So what are the Vineses to do with their lives now?  They still have beaucoup cash and a palatial home filled with objets d’art, but socializing no longer seems to be a priority.
• B.J. spends his days trying to amass greater wealth - but with no heir to whom he can leave his legacy, his motivations for doing so are unclear.
• Rosemary still dresses and acts (or tries to act) like a socialite (I fully expect her COPD / emphysema / whatever is a result of endless packs of cigarettes chain-smoked by Rosemary at countless cocktail parties, probably in a long Breakfast-At-Tiffany’s style cigarette holder because it “looked cool”), but the ever-present and ever-necessary oxygen tank is not an acceptable wardrobe accessory for entertaining; Rosemary rarely ventures out of the house any more, and when she does it’s not to go out much further than the nearest small town.  Rosemary tries to play the femme fatale with any attractive male who happens to wander into her sphere (witness her behavior any time she’s around Chee), which is probably a shoutout to her younger “hot chick” days - but that damn tank puts a definite crimp in her facade.
• And finally (I know, “thank god”) - although there appears to be little love lost between B.J. and Rosemary, I think they stay together simply because neither has any better options: the bloom was off Rosemary’s rose a while back, and B.J. doesn’t want to lose 50%+ of his net wealth in a nasty divorce settlement.  So they stay together for every reason except love, which means something (fear? anger? jealousy?) will eventually ferment into the poison of hatred.

In that sense, Rosemary’s O2 tank becomes an allegorical representation of the Vines’s current lives and relationship; an ugly clunky piece of baggage, symbolic of past excesses, which they have to drag around behind them wherever they go - but without which they cannot survive.

[lidarose9]

We both found season 2 very disappointing, in spite of many great actors. The writing just tried to shoe-horn in way too much stuff, which had nothing to do with the actual story, and much of it just made NO sense. Chee's character just seemed like a supreme dumbass, either bad writing or bad acting or both. Who goes on surveillance driving a car like that? The blond guy was supposed to be some superhuman monster who could voluntarily dislocate his shoulders to escape handcuffs and walk through a frozen desert with only one shoe -- yet is dumb enough to turn his back on the bad man with the gun? On the plus side, the music for season 2 was fantastic, though. We watched the one with Wes Studi last night and in spite of the lower budget, it was a much better show.

Edited September 2, 2023 by lidarose9

[susannot]

Things I enjoyed about this last episode:  the beautiful Navajo ceremony celebrating a baby's first laugh.  The baby. The Dylan song and the Credence song.

Everything else?  Not so much.

 

 

[possibilities]

If they do come back for another season (I agree this episode felt like a show finale), Bernadette has to come back! I think her absence would be a major loss. Also, I fail to see how working for Border Patrol solves the problem of "two kinds of justice".

[Raja]

Did the show really end with Sergeant  Manuelito joining the Border Patrol and Lieutenant Leaphorn going with a make him suffer murder because the judge set bail?

Chee's storylines added nothing really except to show up at the end to leave room for another season

 

[Dowel Jones]

I was waiting for the ghost of Blond Killer to appear before Vines out there in the desert, just as he was succumbing to hypothermia.

I didn't look too closely at the final scene with Joe and Emma, but I presume his arm had healed by then, because motorcycling is best done with both arms.   Nice ending.  He's quite the silversmith, too.

On 9/1/2023 at 12:22 PM, proserpina65 said:

This is set in 1971 - would that have been an option then, or an affordable one at least?

I think so.  I started with the US Forest Service in 1974, and the Forest had several repeaters set up.  What you need is a high point, an antenna, the repeater transmitter, and a power source.  The reservation PD  could obtain that through the BIA fairly easily, I would think.  I guess my reaction came from that TV trope of always having the radio fail at the most inopportune times.  

[Nashville]

On 8/31/2023 at 12:45 PM, abbyzenn said:

And was it ever shown before that the blind lady was Emma's mother?

The reference Margaret (the blind lady) made to Emma as “daughter” was generational, not biological - same as when Joe refers to Bernadette as “daughter”.

Remember, Margaret was the grandmother of Anna - Joe Jr.’s former girlfriend who was killed in S1Ep1.  If Emma had been Margaret’s biological daughter then that would’ve meant Emma and Helen Atcitty (Anna’s mother) were sisters, and THAT would’ve meant Joe Jr. was dating his first cousin - and (more significantly) dating within his own clan, which would’ve been REALLY no bueno.

 

1 hour ago, Dowel Jones said:

What you need is a high point, an antenna, the repeater transmitter, and a power source.

That last bit is what would be problematic on the res.  One thing you don’t see in those big sweeping panoramic shots of Monument Valley?  Lots of power lines.  And especially back in ‘74, when NiCads were the height of battery technology and commercially available solar cells were in their infancy.  

[Dowel Jones]

I was thinking more of a propane powered generator, but, no matter.

[buckboard]

I'm sure someone will know the answer to this, but how did the belt buckle, which seemed to be made of copper or brass, turn from a brownish look into the white feather?   Was it the heating process?

[nachomama]

Jim chee you moron. You wait until she’s leaving? You got no moves, no rizz on the rez. 

[sagittarius sue]

2 hours ago, buckboard said:

I'm sure someone will know the answer to this, but how did the belt buckle, which seemed to be made of copper or brass, turn from a brownish look into the white feather?   Was it the heating process?

I too thought the belt buckle appeared more golden in color, but perhaps it was silver as I thought the feather was silver.

[katenm]

I think the buckle was tarnished silver.

[Zaffy]

I like this cast, I like these characters, I like this world.
Hopefully, next season the show's writers will like them and appreciated them as well.

I enjoyed the last episode  more than most of this season, still there were some issues (like the stupid way the Blond Terminator dies or Leaphorn being a vigilante).
Initially I was a tad pissed off Bernadette left, but the showrunner told the character will stay in the series, so that calmed me down :D

In any case, this season messy and unfocused but I still love having this show.

p.s.
And please writers, no more omnipotent psycho killers that grew up with Hannibal Lecter as their role model, pretty please, with sugar on top?

[nachomama]

We had plenty of crimes on the rez that didn’t involve omnipotent blonde killers. My English teachers jeep was stolen from the high school. Pretty common knowledge around town you didn’t need a key to start it. He walked home all steaming mad and it was parked at his house. So they were polite. They only borrowed it. We think it was nutty (actual name Nathaniel Yazzie) or we made it on cops one time, dude set his coworker on fire. And they had to get a judge to sign the warrant in front of my house. The judge is the same English teacher whose jeep got stolen. He didn’t want his house shown so my bedroom window was on cops. 
I hope the writers strike doesn’t kill the show. I think Kiowa Gordon is growing his hair out so he can have a leap horn bun. It’s just in an awkward stage. 

[Nashville]

51 minutes ago, Zaffy said:

I like this cast, I like these characters, I like this world.
Hopefully, next season the show's writers will like them and appreciated them as well.

Echo echo.

 

51 minutes ago, Zaffy said:

I enjoyed the last episode  more than most of this season, still there were some issues (like the stupid way the Blond Terminator dies or Leaphorn being a vigilante).

Beg to differ, Leaphorn was NOT acting as a vigilante.  Vigilantes seek to take justice into their own hands, which is not what Leaphorn did; rather, he simply enabled a set of circumstances wherein a different (i.e., non-White) form of justice could come into play and assert its authority.  Leaphorn didn’t kill Vines, after all; Joe simply presented Vines to the Land - in a manner reflecting a significant trial the Navajo had previously endured at the hands of whites, no less (hence the Long Walk reference) -and let the Creator decide what should happen to Vines.  The land could save Vines if judged innocent, or destroy him if guilty - and guess what…?

 

ETA: IMHO it’s also important to note Leaphorn did not choose to pursue this extreme course of action until after the white justice system had already had its chance to administer justice, and had failed to do so.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Nashville

[Gobi]

Speaking of the Blond Terminator, did we ever find out who he was looking for? It couldn’t have been his mother since, presumably, he killed her when he was a kid. Did I miss something (quite possible)?

[nachomama]

Yes why was blonde terminator back of he did his job 4 years ago? Unless he wanted to get back at Vines? Vines wasn’t hiring him for another job? 

[possibilities]

I thought it was poetic justice that the guy who wanted to exploit and "play Indian" got a chance to genuinely be initiated into parts of the experience that he didn't pick and choose for himself. Bye bye faker.

I thought blond guy was hired to destroy the evidence of other white guy's involvement in the murders, but I couldn't figure out why other white guy kept the evidence in his safe all this time and couldn't destroy it himself. Killing his hired blond struck me as just another way of keeping his tracks cleared.

Or maybe blond guy returned to kill the guy other white guy's wife was having the affair with, because he also had the ability to testify about the murders. Plus, you know, wife was property and mustn't be "stolen" or allowed to show any independence from abusive hubby or allegiance to real Navajo instead of faker-colonizer husband agenda.

I stopped paying close attention to blond guy's screentime because it seemed to me to be just more glorification of the oppressor (he may be messy and mean and even depraved but he's superhuman and had a scary childhood, so ain't that fascinating and shouldn't we feel some sympathy?). It was making me really want to vomit. Oppressor Porn isn't my jam.

I was surprised to see the unhappy young mother change into happy mom. We didn't really get an explanation for that. She spoke her truth and that was enough? I'm impressed if it's that easy, but I really didn't see it coming. I was also expecting fallout for Emma for telling her story to the press. But I enjoyed seeing both women and also Joe seemingly happy at the end, even if I think they handwaved the journey in favor of showing blondie and other whitey being chased.

And of course Chee needed to work for Leaphorn. I thought his arc was utterly ridiculous all season.

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, Gobi said:

Speaking of the Blond Terminator, did we ever find out who he was looking for? It couldn’t have been his mother since, presumably, he killed her when he was a kid. Did I miss something (quite possible)?

Just the fact that Blondienator was crazier than a shithouse rat.  😆

Right up until Gordo&Co. arrived to take possession of him, Blondie was laboring under a very specific set of delusions:

1. His mother had annihilated her entire family (himself being the only exception).
2. She then somehow “escaped” - he doesn’t appear to have gone into very much detail in construction of this portion of his delusion, and (in hindsight) probably wasn’t overmuch invested in pursuing it.
3. Following her “escape”, Mommy Dearest was living out her remaining days “somewhere out west” under a false identity - hence the parade of (repeatedly unsuccessful) private investigators to track her down, with a succession of vague clues muddying the trail as they went.
    

It isn’t until after Leaphorn has taken Killer Ken Doll on his own eee-tiny mini-version of a Long Walk that Blondie can face the reality of his matricide - right about when Gordo and his goonies show up to take custody.

[proserpina65]

4 hours ago, Nashville said:

Echo echo.

 

Beg to differ, Leaphorn was NOT acting as a vigilante.  Vigilantes seek to take justice into their own hands, which is not what Leaphorn did; rather, he simply enabled a set of circumstances wherein a different (i.e., non-White) form of justice could come into play and assert its authority.  Leaphorn didn’t kill Vines, after all; Joe simply presented Vines to the Land - in a manner reflecting a significant trial the Navajo had previously endured at the hands of whites, no less (hence the Long Walk reference) -and let the Creator decide what should happen to Vines.  The land could save Vines if judged innocent, or destroy him if guilty - and guess what…?

 

ETA: IMHO it’s also important to note Leaphorn did not choose to pursue this extreme course of action until after the white justice system had already had its chance to administer justice, and had failed to do so.

Still acting as a vigilante.  And not like Joe Leaphorn at all.  He didn't even give the justice system a chance to act.  It's not like there was a trial or anything yet.  Vines just got out on bail, that was all.  It happens all the time.

That last episode was lousy.  None of the resolutions were earned at all and some of them (Sally suddenly happy to be a mother?) made absolutely no sense.  In fact, the whole season was weak as hell, although the performances were very good.  If there's another season, it better improve a LOT or I'm probably going to stop watching.

 

[Zaffy]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

Blondienator

Omg, I literally LOL when I read this!

4 hours ago, nachomama said:

Yes why was blonde terminator back of he did his job 4 years ago? Unless he wanted to get back at Vines? Vines wasn’t hiring him for another job? 

I think Vines called him to find the box his wife's lover stole. 
 

[mythoughtis]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Still acting as a vigilante.  And not like Joe Leaphorn at all.  He didn't even give the justice system a chance to act.

As Joe’s dad said, there are two justice systems in play: the white man’s and the Indian’s.  I would use the term Native American except that he didn’t.  (Because this was the 1970s.)

Joe hasn’t really been following his traditional tribal beliefs up until this episode.  Not wanting to participate in ceremonies, etc.   His only concession to it has been his hair.  This may have been a reaction to his son’s murder.  

In this episode, he embraced his tribal beliefs by submitting Vines to the tribal version of Justice ( per his Dad’s suggestion). Which he did on sovereign tribal lands. Besides the discussion of the forced walk across of tribes across states, there’s the fact that banishment was a traditional punishment.  Banishment meant almost certain death.      
 

He then went on to create a tribal type gift for Bernadette, and embrace a traditional ceremony for the baby.  Balance. That’s what the writers wanted us to take from this episode.    We aren’t really meant to focus on Vines.  
 

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Still acting as a vigilante. 

Only by White standards.

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

And not like Joe Leaphorn at all. 

To which Joe Leaphorn do you refer?

• The veteran Tribal officer whose job experience over the years has taught him (as evidenced by his conversation with Gordo about the possibility of arresting Vines) exactly how little true justice can be expected from White courts with regards to Tribal matters?
• Or the Navajo whose racial history is rife with discrimination and abuse meted out by the government system which is supposed to be the dispensary of impartial justice?

 

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

He didn't even give the white justice system a chance to act. 

FTFY - but with regards to your original statement? Sure, Joe gave it a chance - despite the warnings from Gordo that a hugely rich white man like Vines would never receive anything approaching justice in the white court system.  Joe gave it a chance when he relinquished custody.

And what was the result?  Betrayal by that same system - and not just simple betrayal, but betrayal in the most expeditious manner possible. Joe transferred Vines’s custody in the afternoon - and when he gets home and catches the evening news, what does Joe hear?  Joe hears about how not only has Vines already been released on bail, but released with a public statement from the hearing judge that bail was granted due to the lack of any direct evidence of Vines’s involvement.

 

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

It's not like there was a trial or anything yet. 

Maybe you didn’t catch it, but there’s not going to be a trial.

How often have you ever heard of a judge in a bail hearing say anything other than “bail granted” or “bail denied”?  In short, how often does a judge make ANY statement about why he is granting or denying bail?

Answer: you don’t - unless you’re telegraphing a message to the world at large, of course.  And the message THIS judge is telegraphing is, “Expect this case to be dismissed pre-trial, due to lack of evidence.”  

…and I’m sure B. J. Vines will be very grateful - especially when this judge starts his run for governor in a year or three, and is looking for contributors to finance his campaign.

Hell, at this rate Vines will be suing the Navajo Tribe for false arrest by the Tribal Police before the year is out - and in a white court, he’ll probably win.

Heck of a “justice system”, eh?  🙄

 

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Vines just got out on bail, that was all.  It happens all the time.

You’re right; rich white men beat the system all the time.

[Nashville]

On 9/4/2023 at 11:23 AM, Dowel Jones said:

I was thinking more of a propane powered generator, but, no matter.

What’s the normal tank size / run time on one of those?

(Not arguing the notion at all - just trying to alleviate my own ignorance)

ETA: I was originally thinking the run/fill time for most fuel-based power options would make them impractical on a reservation the size of Navajo’s - you’d have to have at least one staff position dedicated to doing nothing but driving around refilling genny tanks - but I wasn’t thinking about a whopping big propane tank being an option.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Nashville

[proserpina65]

19 hours ago, Nashville said:

You’re right; rich white men beat the system all the time.

Getting bail isn't necessarily beating the system.  It's actually a part of the system.  Yes, rich people are more likely to be able to pay the bail as set when less fortunate ones can't, but bail being granted is not an indication that the system isn't working.  Had the trial happened and Vines gotten off, then I'd have had more sympathy for Leaphorn's actions, but doing what he did before there was even a trial WAS acting as a vigilante.

19 hours ago, Nashville said:

And what was the result?  Betrayal by that same system - and not just simple betrayal, but betrayal in the most expeditious manner possible.

A suspect getting bail is not a betrayal by the system - it's how the system works.

And for the record, I prefer BOOK Joe Leaphorn, and very little of what we've seen in this show is him at all.  I think I've been pretty clear on that point.

[nachomama]

My soul will sleep fine with what joe leaphorn did. I wish he’d just killed old blondie is out in the desert. It definitely woulda been self defense. I think I’ve only read 1 hillerman book so I’m not married to who they are in print. 

[possibilities]

I wish Joe knew blondie is dead. It would be hard to rest, not knowing.

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Getting bail isn't necessarily beating the system.  It's actually a part of the system.  Yes, rich people are more likely to be able to pay the bail as set when less fortunate ones can't, but bail being granted is not an indication that the system isn't working.  Had the trial happened and Vines gotten off, then I'd have had more sympathy for Leaphorn's actions, but doing what he did before there was even a trial WAS acting as a vigilante.

A suspect getting bail is not a betrayal by the system - it's how the system works.

And for the record, I prefer BOOK Joe Leaphorn, and very little of what we've seen in this show is him at all.  I think I've been pretty clear on that point.

In response I will simply say I believe you DRASTICALLY underestimate the distrust - and in some cases, outright animosity - many American Indians have for the white man’s government (especially the federal side) and its institutions (such as the courts system), and leave it at that.