S06.E07: Plan and Execution

[Razzberry]

This should be a wake-up call, but it wouldn't surprise me to see Kim and Jimmy at least partially blaming Howard for his own death by being there to confront them.   From what I've seen they have problems owning up to their own culpability in things.

Soda update:  I just tried it on a can of rootbeer, this time only turning it about 10 times.  Got a little spray, but not too bad.  

Edited May 25, 2022 by Razzberry

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I MIGHT agree with 'thoughtlessly cruel,' but I would still give Howard a lot of sympathy because of his state of mind. Now, Jimmy saying "That's your cross to bear," was deliberately cruel. Jimmy could see that Howard was suffering, completely blaming himself for Chuck's death. Jimmy twisted the knife, basically to deflect from his own feelings of guilt. 

2 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Jimmy's were more cruel (crueler? Now I'm hungry...). 

If we're assessing severity, cruelty is all about intention, the intentional infliction of emotional distress, if you will.

Howard was clearly relieving some of his own distress, yes, but he was also, in his mind, trying to do the right thing. He was also under tremendous duress and probably not thinking as clearly as he could (same for Jimmy, of course), so that needs to be part of our assessment as well. 

I've had the very unfortunate circumstance of having close family members die under somewhat mysterious circumstances that required probing very upsetting facts to attempt to get at the truth, not unlike what Howard reveals here (though suicide was not in the mix). I wouldn't blame Howard or Jimmy under those circumstances during that conversation, and maybe I'd let them both off the "You are being cruel" hook. But, as outsiders, we have to admit that only one of them was intentionally trying to tell the whole truth, and only one of them intentionally omitted facts to make the other person suffer more.

2 hours ago, Penman61 said:

I agree. Howard's tragedy is how close to grace he was ("Maybe there's more to life than being a smart lawyer"), and Jimmy's is how much further away from it he goes with every episode.

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

Agreed. We can't forget Howard can be something of a drama queen. I mean, calling Kim and Jimmy "Leopold and Loeb" without irony.*

Leopold and Loeb murdered a child for fun and entertainment. Kim and Jimmy might be on their way there, from Howard's POV, but...come on. Howard even conceded that he would land on his feet.

*The irony is that BCS's actual Leopold and Loeb, Lalo, was likely listening quietly outside the door and heard this--and grinned.

** Forgot about Meth Damon, this universe's true L&L.

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Howard can certainly be a bit on the dramatic side, but I don't think he was comparing their crimes so much as their motivations. Obviously murdering a child is worse than anything Saul and Kim have done, but Howards point was that they did all of this for fun and to feel clever, which is why Leopold and Loeb murdered a child. I don't think that Saul and Kim are actual clinical sociopaths or that their next scheme will involve kidnapping and murdering a kid, but the reasons for the murder were that Leopold and Loeb thought they were smarter than everyone else and wanted to prove it with a "perfect" crime and because they were thrill seekers who saw murder as something exciting to try. What Kim and Saul did was certainly nothing as horrible as murder, they did absolutely did this because they like the idea of running a con that makes them feel smarter than all the rubes out there, and because they love the thrill of being bad. Also, much like Leopold and Loeb, the two of them bring out the worst in each other, encouraging each others worse behavior, validating the awful things they do. 

1 hour ago, Adiba said:

I don’t know, I think Jimmy may have felt stronger negative feelings about Chuck, but not necessarily more positive ones than Howard. Howard listened to Chuck, looked up to him as a mentor—and seemed to be more affected by Chuck’s death than Jimmy. Jimmy feigned grief at Chuck’s graveside and dumped his guilt in Howard’s lap. 
I’m not saying that Jimmy has no feelings or grief over Chuck’s death or that he hasn’t internalized them. But I do not think that all of his actions against Howard have to do with Chuck’s death. 

58 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think Jimmy's feelings for Chuck were deeper than Howard's in every possible way, positive, negative, complicated. Jimmy's grief wasn't feigned at all, imo, it was complicated and too much for him to deal with. Chuck was, imo, one of the most if not the most important forces in Jimmy's life and could hurt him like no one else could--which I think he nearly if not totally intentionally did by killing himself.

People have been questioning "Why does Kim hate Howard so much?"

I think a bigger question is "Why does Jimmy hate Howard so much?"

Sure you can understand having contempt for the guy but at one time Jimmy hated Howard with the fire of a 1,000 suns. He seemed to hate Howard even more after Chuck's death.

I remember a theory in Breaking Bad that Walt Jr. was Walter's son and Jessie was Heisenberg's son. They went on to say that because of Walt Jr's condition that Walt could not be rough with his son (probably the way a father should be in his warped mind) and he took that out on Jessie. 

Chuck was an older brother/father figure to both Howard and Jimmy. I know a little about this because I am much older than my younger brother. I am literally a hybrid between a parent and sibling to him.

Jimmy had contempt for his real father who he saw as weak. He admired the Hell out of Chuck and desperately wanted his love and respect.

The problem was that Chuck did not want a brother like Jimmy. He thought he was trash and was envious of how Jimmy's natural charisma let him get away with terrible behavior.

Howard was the brother/son Chuck wanted. He was well-mannered, sophisticated, polished, and possessed a moral compass. It also did not hurt that Howard would never be as brilliant as Chuck and therefore always put him on a pedestal and make him top dog.

After Chuck dies, it is Howard that celebrates his legacy and keeps his memory alive. All Jimmy has are the words that he never meant very much to Chuck. This causes Jimmy to hate Howard with a vengeance. 

What I have written is probably something that Jimmy probably does not even understand himself. He does not realize that he totally envies Howard's relationship with Chuck and thinks he just hates Howard because he is Howard.

[PeterPirate]

46 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, I think you're right-haven't seen the scene in a while. But still, that's Jimmy deflecting and pushing things onto Howard that he can't deal with the same way as Howard feels the need to dump his guilt to others to feel better. It's not surprising to me that Howard is ultimately going to be able to deal with Chuck's death in a healthy way where Jimmy is not. 

Sure, I think Jimmy has other motivations in his life beyond Chuck, but he tried to get that guy's love for practically his whole life and Chuck hated him. I think he was the most important relationship in his whole life, and it was a mostly painful one. And vice versa, unfortunately for Chuck.

I like this post, but I don't think Chuck "hated" Jimmy.  I think Chuck feared what Jimmy could do with a law degree.   

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, qtpye said:

People have been questioning "Why does Kim hate Howard so much?"

I think a bigger question is "Why does Jimmy hate Howard so much?"

Sure you can understand having contempt for the guy but at one time Jimmy hated Howard with the fire of a 1,000 suns. He seemed to hate Howard even more after Chuck's death.

I remember a theory in Breaking Bad that Walt Jr. was Walter's son and Jessie was Heisenberg's son. They went on to say that because of Walt Jr's condition that Walt could not be rough with his son (probably the way a father should be in his warped mind) and he took that out on Jessie. 

Chuck was an older brother/father figure to both Howard and Jimmy. I know a little about this because I am much older than my younger brother. I am literally a hybrid between a parent and sibling to him.

Jimmy had contempt for his real father who he saw as weak. He admired the Hell out of Chuck and desperately wanted his love and respect.

The problem was that Chuck did not want a brother like Jimmy. He thought he was trash and was envious of how Jimmy's natural charisma let him get away with terrible behavior.

Howard was the brother/son Chuck wanted. He was well-mannered, sophisticated, polished, and possessed a moral compass. It also did not hurt that Howard would never be as brilliant as Chuck and therefore always put him on a pedestal and make him top dog.

After Chuck dies, it is Howard that celebrates his legacy and keeps his memory alive. All Jimmy has are the words that he never meant very much to Chuck. This causes Jimmy to hate Howard with a vengeance. 

What I have written is probably something that Jimmy probably does not even understand himself. He does not realize that he totally envies Howard's relationship with Chuck and thinks he just hates Howard because he is Howard.

I pretty much agree, but I just put it this way: Jimmy is consumed with a mixture of anger, grief, and guilt,  with regard to Chuck, that he has little conscious inkling of. Chuck's dead, and Howard's the convenient vessel into which to pour that poisonous brew.

[PeterPirate]

49 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

Soda update:  I just tried it on a can of rootbeer, this time only turning it about 10 times.  Got a little spray, but not too bad.  

That is awesome.  I heard one online reviewer point out Chuck had a lot of experience with that trick because his little brother often shook the cans for laughs.  

[Adiba]

14 minutes ago, qtpye said:

Howard was the brother/son Chuck wanted. He was well-mannered, sophisticated, polished, and possessed a moral compass. It also did not hurt that Howard would never be as brilliant as Chuck and therefore always put him on a pedestal and make him top dog.

After Chuck dies, it is Howard that celebrates his legacy and keeps his memory alive. All Jimmy has are the words that he never meant very much to Chuck. This causes Jimmy to hate Howard with a vengeance. 

You just gave me an “aha” moment. What you have written makes perfect sense to me as to why Jimmy hates Howard so much. More than anything else that Howard did, more than the fact that Howard was a privileged jerk — your take is onto something, imo.

[Emma Snyder]

42 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I don't think Chuck "hated" Jimmy.  I think Chuck feared what Jimmy could do with a law degree. 

I think Chuck "hated" (I use quotes because I don't think it was hate hate) Jimmy because he was Slippin' Jimmy, who managed to charm his way through life so that people didn't actually see him for who he was...heck, even Chuck said he got Jimmy out of some bad situations (like that "sunroof" thing). It bothered Chuck that Jimmy was the one who their mother asked for before she died. "Bad" Jimmy who was everybody's little darling. It was, to use Chuck's words, the "chicanery" that he most disliked about his brother.

[Joimiaroxeu]

What kind of store also provides showers to rent?

Interesting to me how Lalo was walking in that drain pipe without a mask. Even if it didn't smell bad down there must have been a chance of his breathing in something dangerously unhealthy.

Lol, the look on Howard's face when he saw the mediator.

Farewell, Howard. We hardly knew ye. Patrick Fabian got a fantastic exit scene. Vince G. did right by him.

My favorite comment from reddit:

Quote

"Who knew the mushroom cloud on the d-day post it note would be symbolic of Howard’s brains"

[aghst]

And what did he find out from that sewer surveillance?

Not much it seems.

[Eulipian 5k]

6 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Howard telling Jimmy that Chuck suffered before he died was intentionally and exceptionally cruel. It would be hard to forgive him for that.

Did Howard say any of that? Or did Kim put it that way during her rant? It was Kim that said "screaming in agony" about Chuck, even though she wasn't there and we saw no screaming. (smoke gets you before the flames, usually) Howard in fact gave Jimmy the let off he needed. Jimmy's whole mood changed when he had Howard to put in the Blame-it-on box.

Howard was grieving someone who raised him professionally and is the center of his chosen life's work. Few can control what they do/say when in deepest grief. They should both let that pass; but Kim just ran with her own grief/revenge/malice colored interpretation.

[Lalo Lives]

On 5/24/2022 at 11:19 AM, scenario said:

Lalo is a serial killer. He's killed a lot of people. It's almost certainly not the gun used in Europe, But I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he's killed other's with this gun or will kill others with it like some of Gus's men. 

Will Howard's body even be found?

If Mike cleans it up he'll have questions. Lalo may make sure Jimmy keeps his mouth shut by using Kim as insurance. Jimmy certainly can't clean up a crime scene. Even if the bullet did not exit there will be all kinds of liquid evidence. If it DID exit there will be much much more.

I'm guessing, probably incorrectly, that this is where Lalo and Kim take a trip down to Chihuahua. Saul will keep quiet.

[PeterPirate]

35 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Did Howard say any of that? Or did Kim put it that way during her rant? It was Kim that said "screaming in agony" about Chuck, even though she wasn't there and we saw no screaming. (smoke gets you before the flames, usually) Howard in fact gave Jimmy the let off he needed. Jimmy's whole mood changed when he had Howard to put in the Blame-it-on box.

Howard was grieving someone who raised him professionally and is the center of his chosen life's work. Few can control what they do/say when in deepest grief. They should both let that pass; but Kim just ran with her own grief/revenge/malice colored interpretation.

All Howard said was he thought Chuck committed suicide.  

The horror, the horror.  

[scenario]

10 minutes ago, Lalo Lives said:

Will Howard's body even be found?

If Mike cleans it up he'll have questions. Lalo may make sure Jimmy keeps his mouth shut by using Kim as insurance. Jimmy certainly can't clean up a crime scene. Even if the bullet did not exit there will be all kinds of liquid evidence. If it DID exit there will be much much more.

I'm guessing, probably incorrectly, that this is where Lalo and Kim take a trip down to Chihuahua. Saul will keep quiet.

Jimmy can't clean it up but Mike's crew can get it clean enough that it would be difficult to find evidence. They could also plant drugs in Howard's home. From what I remember from BB Saul has more dealings with Mike than the Salamancas. 

When the police investigate, people will tell them that Howard has been acting strangely ever since his partner died. He's been paranoid and accusing his former partner's brother of all sorts of stuff. Several of his lawyer friends were with him when several street walkers accused him of stealing from them. And another lawyer friend saw him with drugs. He totally messed up a case by making wild accusations while he appeared to be on drugs. He's living in the guest house. His wife lets them search his house and they find drugs. 

It's not surprising that he's disappeared right after he nuked his career by getting stoned out of his mind and accusing the judge of a crime. He's probably on a bender right now and he'll be home in a few days. 

58 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

What kind of store also provides showers to rent?

Interesting to me how Lalo was walking in that drain pipe without a mask. Even if it didn't smell bad down there must have been a chance of his breathing in something dangerously unhealthy.

Lol, the look on Howard's face when he saw the mediator.

Farewell, Howard. We hardly knew ye. Patrick Fabian got a fantastic exit scene. Vince G. did right by him.

My favorite comment from reddit:

A lot of full service truck stops have showers. 

[Starchild]

2 minutes ago, scenario said:

He's living in the guest house. His wife lets them search his [guest] house and they find drugs. 

I can see this. In fact, it could be the reason the writers had Howard volunteer this to Jimmy and Kim. If they pass this on to Mike, this could actually happen.

[Irlandesa]

6 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Yep, some (mostly men) thought Skyler’s smoking a cigarette and “cheating “ on Walt (even though they were separated and she was desperate to get him away from the kids) was worse than Walt’s constant lying, making  and selling a drug that poisons people and ruins their lives, trying to poison a child, and putting his own family (including a special needs child and an infant) into grave danger.

Also raping her.  It's something that gets overlooked because it was so short but the distracted hand job in the pilot is often used as an used as an example of her awfulness while the sexual assault is ignored. Skylar's role was more Stockholm than Bonnie to Walter's Clyde.

6 hours ago, Bannon said:

As Kim later berates Howard, going out of his way to clearly state that Chuck purposely set himself on fire and died in burning agony, and did not die in his sleep of smoke inhalation, was an extremely cruel and despicable thing to do, for completely selfish reasons.

He never painted a detailed gorey picture. 

This is Kim's point if view.  We don't have to accept her POV just because she has it.  It's her opinion but I don't think it was presented as the truth. I always thought she had a questionable protectiveness of Jimmy.  Time has shown she has made questionable choices elsewhere. 

3 hours ago, aghst said:

Leopold & Loeb sounds like an entertainment pair.

They have become an inspiration/metaphor in entertainment.   That's why I felt the comparison was apt even if the crimes were different. 

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

I think a bigger question is "Why does Jimmy hate Howard so much?"

I agree with you about the sibling rivalry aspect but am I the only one who doesn't think that Jimmy actually hates Howard?  He was the one who gave Howard the pep talk after Chuck's death.  He's the one who told Howard in this episode that "he'd be fine" as if genuinely believed it. He had a visible reaction to Howard's failing marriage. 

He certainly enjoyed poking Howard but I don't think he had a fiery hatred. He would've gotten bored and given up if it weren't for Kim because he didn't have enough hatred to propel him. Or even greed.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Irlandesa

[Lalo Lives]

12 minutes ago, scenario said:

Jimmy can't clean it up but Mike's crew can get it clean enough that it would be difficult to find evidence. They could also plant drugs in Howard's home. From what I remember from BB Saul has more dealings with Mike than the Salamancas. 

When the police investigate, people will tell them that Howard has been acting strangely ever since his partner died. He's been paranoid and accusing his former partner's brother of all sorts of stuff. Several of his lawyer friends were with him when several street walkers accused him of stealing from them. And another lawyer friend saw him with drugs. He totally messed up a case by making wild accusations while he appeared to be on drugs. He's living in the guest house. His wife lets them search his house and they find drugs. 

It's not surprising that he's disappeared right after he nuked his career by getting stoned out of his mind and accusing the judge of a crime. He's probably on a bender right now and he'll be home in a few days. 

A lot of full service truck stops have showers. 

On 5/24/2022 at 11:19 AM, scenario said:

Lalo is a serial killer. He's killed a lot of people. It's almost certainly not the gun used in Europe, But I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he's killed other's with this gun or will kill others with it like some of Gus's men. 

Will Howard's body even be found?

If Mike cleans it up he'll have questions. Lalo may make sure Jimmy keeps his mouth shut by using Kim as insurance. Jimmy certainly can't clean up a crime scene. Even if the bullet did not exit there will be all kinds of liquid evidence. If it DID exit there will be much much more.

I'm guessing, probably incorrectly, that this is where Lalo and Kim take a trip down to Chihuahua. Saul will keep quiet.

What would Jimmy and Kim's story be for Mike?

Lalo is on the loose!?

Btw, all replies to my question were spot on. I just can't wrap my small brain around the idea that Lalo would leave them free to flap their gums about him being alive.

[scenario]

20 minutes ago, Lalo Lives said:

Will Howard's body even be found?

If Mike cleans it up he'll have questions. Lalo may make sure Jimmy keeps his mouth shut by using Kim as insurance. Jimmy certainly can't clean up a crime scene. Even if the bullet did not exit there will be all kinds of liquid evidence. If it DID exit there will be much much more.

I'm guessing, probably incorrectly, that this is where Lalo and Kim take a trip down to Chihuahua. Saul will keep quiet.

What would Jimmy and Kim's story be for Mike?

Lalo is on the loose!?

Btw, all replies to my question were spot on. I just can't wrap my small brain around the idea that Lalo would leave them free to flap their gums about him being alive.

Lalo needs a lawyer at some point. And once he's got the evidence against Gus, he doesn't need to hide from his family and friends anymore. He'll disappear back to Mexico. 

[Starchild]

23 minutes ago, Lalo Lives said:

What would Jimmy and Kim's story be for Mike?

Lalo is on the loose!?

Btw, all replies to my question were spot on. I just can't wrap my small brain around the idea that Lalo would leave them free to flap their gums about him being alive.

He wants them to know he's alive, that's why he announced himself on the bugged line.

As for Mike, they just have to tell the truth. Mike's the one that told Kim that Lalo was out there.

Question is, what will Kim say to Jimmy about why she didn't tell him. 

After the horror of Howard's death, I wonder if they will start blaming each other for what happened.

[Eulipian 5k]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

And what did he find out from that sewer surveillance?

Not much it seems.

First, he saw the guards' positions. And Second, he saw them react to his phone call, confirming the bug and that Gus suspects he's alive. Plus he's close to the showers! All he needs is a pedicure and cucumber water.

I notice Lalo wears overalls, but no sewer dirt dares mess them up.

[Constantinople]

Why is everyone assuming Mike will dispose of Howard's body and steam clean Chez Wexler-McGill?

People mention Jane, but Mike didn't dispose of her body. He picked up some items, including some drug paraphernalia and Jesse's money, and did some minimal cleaning. Then Mike told Jesse what to say to the EMTs or whoever would take Jane's body away. It could easily be passed off as a drug overdose (I would argue Walt was at least guilty of manslaughter, but that's neither nor there).

Since Mike worked for Gus by this time, the only reason I can think of why Mike helped out then was because they didn't want Jesse getting arrested after Jesse and Walt sold blue meth to Gus.

Disposing of Howard's body and the attendant clean up is much more difficult. What's in it for Mike when he's short staffed protecting Gus from Lalo, and already had to pull men from lower priority targets? Unless it helps him kill Lalo, why would he help Kim and Jimmy? And how would they tip him off about Lalo? I'm assuming whoever was watching Kim and Saul for Mike were among those pulled off to guard Gus's house.

[millennium]

7 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Yep, some (mostly men) thought Skyler’s smoking a cigarette and “cheating “ on Walt (even though they were separated and she was desperate to get him away from the kids) was worse than Walt’s constant lying, making  and selling a drug that poisons people and ruins their lives, trying to poison a child, and putting his own family (including a special needs child and an infant) into grave danger. They probably would’ve applauded Walt had he had an affair. And in BCS, I think they would applaud many of the characteristics they dislike in Kim if she were male. 

I never understood the criticism of Skyler.   It was like "Are we watching the same show?"  I posted a heartfelt defense of her several years ago in the Breaking Bad forum.  

Definitely agree with your observation re: Kim.

[Starchild]

11 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Why is everyone assuming Mike will dispose of Howard's body and steam clean Chez Wexler-McGill?

People mention Jane, but Mike didn't dispose of her body. He picked up some items, including some drug paraphernalia and Jesse's money, and did some minimal cleaning. Then Mike told Jesse what to say to the EMTs or whoever would take Jane's body away. It could easily be passed off as a drug overdose (I would argue Walt was at least guilty of manslaughter, but that's neither nor there).

Since Mike worked for Gus by this time, the only reason I can think of why Mike helped out then was because they didn't want Jesse getting arrested after Jesse and Walt sold blue meth to Gus.

Disposing of Howard's body and the attendant clean up is much more difficult. What's in it for Mike when he's short staffed protecting Gus from Lalo, and already had to pull men from lower priority targets? Unless it helps him kill Lalo, why would he help Kim and Jimmy? And how would they tip him off about Lalo? I'm assuming whoever was watching Kim and Saul for Mike were among those pulled off to guard Gus's house.

I agree that there's nothing saying they should expect Mike to help. But they know he's a fixer, that he knows Lalo is alive, Kim at least knows that Mike's guys were actually watching over them, and I don't think there's anyone else they'd call first.

There's also the vet, but he's probably call Mike.

Saul doesn't lose his license to practice so something must help them out of this.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Starchild

[Crashcourse]

2 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

What kind of store also provides showers to rent?

Yes, I wondered about that myself.  That place looked like a 7-Eleven type place and, while I can understand having bathrooms, I thought it was strange to have showers. 

[Starchild]

Maybe something along the highway, intended for long haul truckers and the like?

[scenario]

7 minutes ago, Crashcourse said:

Yes, I wondered about that myself.  That place looked like a 7-Eleven type place and, while I can understand having bathrooms, I thought it was strange to have showers. 

Google Truck stops of America

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

Also raping her.  It's something that gets overlooked because it was so short but the distracted hand job in the pilot is often used as an used as an example of her awfulness while the sexual assault is ignored. Skylar's role was more Stockholm than Bonnie to Walter's Clyde.

He never painted a detailed gorey picture. 

This is Kim's point if view.  We don't have to accept her POV just because she has it.  It's her opinion but I don't think it was presented as the truth. I always thought she had a questionable protectiveness of Jimmy.  Time has shown she has made questionable choices elsewhere. 

They have become an inspiration/metaphor in entertainment.   That's why I felt the comparison was apt even if the crimes were different. 

I agree with you about the sibling rivalry aspect but am I the only one who doesn't think that Jimmy actually hates Howard?  He was the one who gave Howard the pep talk after Chuck's death.  He's the one who told Howard in this episode that "he'd be fine" as if genuinely believed it. He had a visible reaction to Howard's failing marriage. 

He certainly enjoyed poking Howard but I don't think he had a fiery hatred. He would've gotten bored and given up if it weren't for Kim because he didn't have enough hatred to propel him. Or even greed.

Jimmy is smart enough to grasp that if Chiuck's death was suicide, it very likely means he was burned alive, and did not did not die in his sleep from smoke inhalation. It was a thoughtlessly cruel thing to tell Jimmy, done for entirely self- centered reasons. Jimmy, of course, gave a cruel response.

[Irlandesa]

14 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Jimmy is smart enough to grasp that if Chiuck's death was suicide, it very likely means he was burned alive, and did not did not die in his sleep from smoke inhalation. It was a thoughtlessly cruel thing to tell Jimmy, done for entirely self- centered reasons. Jimmy, of course, gave a cruel response.

If Jimmy is smart enough to know that, then he's smart enough to know that his fastidious brother didn't accidentally leave out a lit lantern.

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

Question is, what will Kim say to Jimmy about why she didn't tell him. 

I can easily imagine something like, "I didn't want to worry you." I think the bigger question is, How will Jimmy react. Kim doesn't trust me? Kim thinks I'm weak? Kim doesn't respect me? Nothing positive.

Quote

After the horror of Howard's death, I wonder if they will start blaming each other for what happened.

That sounds very plausible to me.

38 minutes ago, Starchild said:

I agree that there's nothing saying they should expect Mike to help. But they know he's a fixer, that he knows Lalo is alive, Kim at least knows that Mike's guys were actually watching over them, and I don't think there's anyone else they'd call first.

I can't see what they'd do except call Mike. Maybe Kim will actually scream at Mike. "You were supposed to be protecting us!" Although Mike didn't really have much choice but to pull his guys, he might feel responsible and take care of the body.

2 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

What kind of store also provides showers to rent?

You haven't had the pleasure of visiting a Stuckey's or a Buc-ee's? 

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

If Jimmy is smart enough to know that, then he's smart enough to know that his fastidious brother didn't accidentally leave out a lit lantern.

Yes, and that has nothing to with whether it was cruel to tell the sibling of someone, who just burned himself alive, that this is what happened.

[Adiba]

10 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I can easily imagine something like, "I didn't want to worry you." I think the bigger question is, How will Jimmy react. Kim doesn't trust me? Kim thinks I'm weak? Kim doesn't respect me? Nothing positive.

That sounds very plausible to me.

I can't see what they'd do except call Mike. Maybe Kim will actually scream at Mike. "You were supposed to be protecting us!" Although Mike didn't really have much choice but to pull his guys, he might feel responsible and take care of the body.

You haven't had the pleasure of visiting a Stuckey's or a Buc-ee's? 

Jimmy may also be angry at Kim for not telling him about Lalo because she did not give him the opportunity to protect himself. He may not have opened the door so easily nor left it unlocked once Howard entered the apartment.

I can’t see Lalo just leaving Kim and Jimmy to clean up the mess without any sort of insurance that things will be taken care of properly. What explanation will they give Lalo about Mike if they call him?

[PeterPirate]

Saul still has the key to the Namastemobile.  Maybe they will drive it out to the desert with Howard's body in the trunk.   Or maybe they will call the vet.  I doubt Saul and Kim will call Mike.  Kim, at least, knows that Mike and Lalo are on opposite sides. 

[scenario]

9 minutes ago, Adiba said:

Jimmy may also be angry at Kim for not telling him about Lalo because she did not give him the opportunity to protect himself. He may not have opened the door so easily nor left it unlocked once Howard entered the apartment.

I can’t see Lalo just leaving Kim and Jimmy to clean up the mess without any sort of insurance that things will be taken care of properly. What explanation will they give Lalo about Mike if they call him?

Maybe they don't call him. Mike had someone watching the place but he pulled all but one of them away. The one guy didn't see Lalo go into the apartment but did see him come out but couldn't catch him or kill him. Mike wants to talk to Saul and Kim if they talked to Lalo so he goes over. They are still in shock and tell him everything including the recording Lalo gave them. The recording gives Mike and Gus the information they need to figure out Lalo's plan. Lalo's dead a few hours later and Mike can afford to send a clean up crew to help Kim and Saul. 

Now Kim and Saul have Howard's body there. They could kill Kim and Saul but there's going to be a big investigation and if Howard, Kim and Saul all disappear the State Police and probably the Feds are going to get involved. Its safer to dispose of Howards body for them, clean up and plant evidence to make Howard look like a drug addict. 

If they decide to kill Saul and Kim it's better to wait a while. 

[SimplexFish]

2 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

Yes, I wondered about that myself.  That place looked like a 7-Eleven type place and, while I can understand having bathrooms, I thought it was strange to have showers. 

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

Maybe something along the highway, intended for long haul truckers and the like?

Love's Trucks Stops all have these and I assume many others do as well.

2 hours ago, Starchild said:

I agree that there's nothing saying they should expect Mike to help. But they know he's a fixer, that he knows Lalo is alive, Kim at least knows that Mike's guys were actually watching over them, and I don't think there's anyone else they'd call first.

There's also the vet, but he's probably call Mike.

Saul doesn't lose his license to practice so something must help them out of this.

Once they tell Mike that they have a dead Lalo in their apartment, Mike will have plenty of time on his hands to clean up the mess.

[SimplexFish]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

If Jimmy is smart enough to know that, then he's smart enough to know that his fastidious brother didn't accidentally leave out a lit lantern.

Can someone tell the Episode number of Chucks death in the fire please?

Edited May 25, 2022 by SimplexFish

[Adiba]

1 hour ago, SimplexFish said:

Can someone tell the Episode number of Chucks death in the fire please?

Season 3 Episode 10 shows Chuck kicking the “Lantern”

The next season deals with the aftermath 

[Constantinople]

6 hours ago, aghst said:

And what did he find out from that sewer surveillance?

Sewerveillance.

I'll see myself out.

[SimplexFish]

48 minutes ago, Adiba said:

Season 3 Episode 10 shows Chuck kicking the “Lantern”

The next season deals with the aftermath 

Thank you

[Lalo Lives]

51 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Sewerveillance.

I'll see myself out.

This sort of humor is respected in my house. Just not by my wife and kids.

Kudos.

[Lalo Lives]

5 hours ago, Starchild said:

He wants them to know he's alive, that's why he announced himself on the bugged line.

Facepalm. My bad. Duh.

[Starchild]

3 hours ago, scenario said:

Maybe they don't call him. Mike had someone watching the place but he pulled all but one of them away. The one guy didn't see Lalo go into the apartment but did see him come out but couldn't catch him or kill him. Mike wants to talk to Saul and Kim if they talked to Lalo so he goes over. They are still in shock and tell him everything including the recording Lalo gave them. The recording gives Mike and Gus the information they need to figure out Lalo's plan. Lalo's dead a few hours later and Mike can afford to send a clean up crew to help Kim and Saul. 

Now Kim and Saul have Howard's body there. They could kill Kim and Saul but there's going to be a big investigation and if Howard, Kim and Saul all disappear the State Police and probably the Feds are going to get involved. Its safer to dispose of Howards body for them, clean up and plant evidence to make Howard look like a drug addict. 

If they decide to kill Saul and Kim it's better to wait a while. 

We're spinning too hard on this. G&G shows follow character logic religiously. If I put myself in Jimmy and Kim's shoes, knowing them and their circumstances, I would wait for Lalo to finish his business, and then I would call Mike. I just can't see it going any other way. Occam's Razor.

[peeayebee]

3 hours ago, Adiba said:

I can’t see Lalo just leaving Kim and Jimmy to clean up the mess without any sort of insurance that things will be taken care of properly. What explanation will they give Lalo about Mike if they call him?

Why should Lalo care? What would he need 'insurance' for? That they would rat him out? Would YOU let Lalo think you'd turn on him? Jimmy and Kim were scared out of their wits. They're going to do whatever Lalo wants. They're going to get rid of the body so he's not implicated at all, and that means not involving the police. I don't think Lalo would care if they called Mike. His number 1 priority now is getting proof about Gus's Super Lab. I don't see how J&K getting Mike involved would derail that plan. Lalo knows that Mike knows he's alive. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the problem.

Of course it's possible that J&K will get rid of the body themselves, but that seems highly implausible.

[scenario]

2 minutes ago, Starchild said:

We're spinning too hard on this. G&G shows follow character logic religiously. If I put myself in Jimmy and Kim's shoes, knowing them and their circumstances, I would wait for Lalo to finish his business, and then I would call Mike. I just can't see it going any other way. Occam's Razor.

You may be right that they won't call Mike. But what would happen if Mike called them. Would they say their fine with a dead body in their living room?

[Irlandesa]

15 minutes ago, Starchild said:

I would wait for Lalo to finish his business, and then I would call Mike. I just can't see it going any other way. Occam's Razor.

Plus, story wise, it's a way to bring Mike more back into Jimmy's orbit for BB time lines.

[Adiba]

10 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Why should Lalo care? What would he need 'insurance' for? That they would rat him out? Would YOU let Lalo think you'd turn on him? Jimmy and Kim were scared out of their wits. They're going to do whatever Lalo wants. They're going to get rid of the body so he's not implicated at all, and that means not involving the police. I don't think Lalo would care if they called Mike. His number 1 priority now is getting proof about Gus's Super Lab. I don't see how J&K getting Mike involved would derail that plan. Lalo knows that Mike knows he's alive. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the problem.

Of course it's possible that J&K will get rid of the body themselves, but that seems highly implausible.

No idea what Lalo would think or do,  he is unpredictable. But I thought Saul wasn’t supposed to even know Mike, as far as Lalo knows? That’s why I wondered. I can’t see Lalo just letting things hang— he shot Howard because he wanted no witnesses.So I guess we’ll see what the writers have in store for us .

[SimplexFish]

Well whatever Saul & Kim do with the body they better do it quickly...that's not an air refresher laying there on the floor

[SimplexFish]

31 minutes ago, Starchild said:

We're spinning too hard on this. G&G shows follow character logic religiously. If I put myself in Jimmy and Kim's shoes, knowing them and their circumstances, I would wait for Lalo to finish his business, and then I would call Mike. I just can't see it going any other way. Occam's Razor.

When you hear hoofbeats think horses not zebras

Edited May 26, 2022 by SimplexFish

[Armchair Critic]

14 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

And the things she (Skyler) was often criticized for were little things, instead of the truly despicable ones

I liked Skyler, this is my favorite scene of hers when she acts like a ditz with the IRS to cover for Ted. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cifA_6Oh1mQ

[Starchild]

47 minutes ago, scenario said:

You may be right that they won't call Mike. But what would happen if Mike called them. Would they say their fine with a dead body in their living room?

No, no I said I thought they would call Mike. Jimmy knows he's a fixer, and Kim just met him so he'd be top of mind.

[scenario]

3 minutes ago, Starchild said:

No, no I said I thought they would call Mike. Jimmy knows he's a fixer, and Kim just met him so he'd be top of mind.

Misread, My apology's. I wonder if Kim would make the call. 

[PeterPirate]

Lalo doesn't need to care about what happens to the body.  He plans to visit Launderia Brilliante that night and videorecord the underground dig.  Once he accomplishes his mission he can go back to Mexico, leaving Kim and Jimmy behind to deal with the consequences.  

I've read posts about how Lalo wants them to deliver the video to Don Eladio.  That means he plans to go back to their apartment before vanishing into the night.  

But the tape never makes it to Eladio.  So Lalo doesn't make it out of the lauderia alive, but Saul doesn't know that.      

I am also remembering that Lalo did not believe Saul's story about what happened in the desert.  Lalo may still want to talk about that, as well as query Saul about his contacts with Nacho.  That might be why Saul thinks Lalo is still out to get him when Walt and Jesse kidnap him, and why he throws Nacho under the bus. 

Howard's murder would also explain why, four years after the event, Saul thinks of Lalo first.