Smallville in the Media: Get Your News From Other Sources Besides The Torch Here!

[GHScorpiosRule]

I just found this yummy clip with Rosenbaum and Welling...I wish this special had been added to Season three or four's special features! Tom looks especially hawt in that black shirt; Michael is so very funny, and much more comfortable speaking. You can tell that Tom is, at some points, uncomfortable/shy, whatever, but he cracks a smile and laugh now and then, and that's due to Michael.

[SueB]

Screen Rant did a ranking on what made Smallville good: http://screenrant.com/smallville-ultimate-best-superman-story/

warning: comic-centric fans in the comments

[rue721]

On 1/13/2017 at 11:56 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I just found this yummy clip with Rosenbaum and Welling...I wish this special had been added to Season three or four's special features! Tom looks especially hawt in that black shirt; Michael is so very funny, and much more comfortable speaking. You can tell that Tom is, at some points, uncomfortable/shy, whatever, but he cracks a smile and laugh now and then, and that's due to Michael.

Interesting interview. It seems like it's from a different era, doesn't it? Tom especially comes off as so formal.

It's funny how ancient this show is. I was exactly the same year in school as the characters were supposed to be, IIRC. The early 2000s feel like a long time ago, but even still, it's jarring to see how dated things from that time are now.

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

Screen Rant did a ranking on what made Smallville good: http://screenrant.com/smallville-ultimate-best-superman-story/

warning: comic-centric fans in the comments

Ugh.  Chloe's presence on the show is mostly reduced to 'isn't it an honor that they added her to the comics even though they haven't really used her'   

I agree that Lex was great and the best version to date but I had a hard time giving much credibility to any article about the show that both reduced Chloe to a footnote and never even mentioned Lionel.  Half the entry she was mentioned in wasn't even about Smallville!  (And I love Diggle so don't get me wrong)

Edited January 16, 2017 by BkWurm1

[GHScorpiosRule]

So. A friend sent me a link to a podcast that you can listen to or watch, hosted by Michael Rosenbaum!!!! The latest one was entitled Inside of Tom Welling, a good 1.5 hour talk-fest with Clark Tom and Lex Michael! It's so wonderful to see that both have remained besties all these years. And that Rosenbaum looked out for Tom's best interests during the show. Both broke my heart when they revealed neither have any interest in reprising their roles from this show in Supergirl. Or Arrow, Flash.

BUT, I must now take back all my irritations and peevishness over Tom not giving any interviews during the course of this show. Turns out he was burned. That the media that was hounding him wanted to find dirt, so he basically said, "Fuck off," he wasn't going to do anymore, and was more than happy to have Rosenbaum do the press junkets. Of course, that doesn't explain why he wouldn't do the interviews for the show's dvds...that's different. 

And, and, and! Turns out that Rosenbaum TOLD Tom not to marry his now ex-wife, hee! They were both so young--only 22. It's a fun and lovely conversation. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[DittyDotDot]

On 9/13/2017 at 1:26 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

So. A friend sent me a link to a podcast that you can listen to or watch, hosted by Michael Rosenbaum!!!! The latest one was entitled Inside of Tom Welling, a good 1.5 hour talk-fest with Clark Tom and Lex Michael! It's so wonderful to see that both have remained besties all these years. And that Rosenbaum looked out for Tom's best interests during the show. Both broke my heart when they revealed neither have any interest in reprising their roles from this show in Supergirl. Or Arrow, Flash.

BUT, I must now take back all my irritations and peevishness over Tom not giving any interviews during the course of this show. Turns out he was burned. That the media that was hounding him wanted to find dirt, so he basically said, "Fuck off," he wasn't going to do anymore, and was more than happy to have Rosenbaum do the press junkets. Of course, that doesn't explain why he wouldn't do the interviews for the show's dvds...that's different. 

And, and, and! Turns out that Rosenbaum TOLD Tom not to marry his now ex-wife, hee! They were both so young--only 22. It's a fun and lovely conversation. 

That's funny, I randomly ran across this on YouTube today and came here to post it; here's a video link for ya! ;)

[Unclejosh]

So looks like the cult leader Keith Reiniere was arrested.  Could Allison be arrested too?

[Unclejosh]

Ok, I just read the official arrest warrant and Allison is getting arrested probably very shortly.  I know actors act but it is hard to reconcile that the Allison Mack who played Chloe Sullivan and seemed so honest and intelligent back during the show could fall to such depths.  Just wow.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Unclejosh

[screamin]

I'm shocked this hasn't been blowing up this topic: 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/03/27/feds-say-self-help-guru-coerced-followers-into-sex-had-them-branded-with-a-cauterizing-pen/?utm_term=.d1f44cd489f2

http://time.com/5217727/keith-raniere-nxivm-sex-slaves/

Allison Mack is rumored to have been both the cult's victim, and later his collaborator. I hope for her sake it was more the first than the second.

[BkWurm1]

I truly believe she has been his victim and brainwashed and beaten down to accept anything he said to do, but it reached levels where I would be surprised if she is not charged as well.  She's named as his co-conspirator in the criminal complaint against him, not by name but if you know her history it's clearly her. 

She did some awful things she should be held accountable for, but awful things also were also done to her.  Including an account that seemed likely to ber her of him sticking her in a cage and beating her with a paddle as punishment if she or her "slaves" under her didn't fulfill their directives.  That's not an excuse but part of the big picture that seems to show how much a threat and master manipulator this man is.  

All the women involved were required to provide "collateral" to ensure they would obey and never tell anyone about the group of which this Keith guy was the Grand Master over.  Somehow at the start, before anyone else was involved he got AM to swear if she didn't obey she would turn over to him her home, all her rights to her future unborn children, testimonials that would destroy the character of her parents and the threat of a letter to child services about her nephew.  A lot of the testimonials and letters apparently didn't have to be true, just sound so bad that true or not it would cause damage.  And that's just the stuff the police found out about.  Who knows if there was more he directly held over her head.  (Apart from the messed up love she had for him)

She, in turn, demanded "collateral" from other women including a lot of times nude photographs.  There are reports of her sending very intimate shots (and actually arranging for them to be taken) and KR texting back he needed them more graphic and to redo them or him wanting them to smile more or just being giddy that he had all these slaves that would feel compelled to do anything he said.  

All the women seemed to have at first willingly provided this "collateral" but then threat of it being released kept them involved and each month more dirt was required as well as acts of obedience and slave labor.  Many were kept sleep deprived (called in the middle of the night and told to stand for an hour or take a cold shower or respond to readiness drills) and on extreme low cal diets (cause he likes his women super thin). 

Again, I'm not saying that AM shouldn't be held accountable for her actions, she should and it may be the only thing that might break through the years of conditioning, but it's impossible to forget how much he controlled, manipulated and messed up her mind and impossible to know how much was free will and how much was extortion.  I'm sure whatever the percentage, he had her convinced anything he asked was good and right.  And like the criminal complaint said, if anyone questioned anything asked of them, they were reminded of the teachings of the group about how weak women were and how inclined they were to break promises and that this secret group was supposed to break them of their weaknesses.  So that even questioning the methods was proof they were weak and needed to comply.  

Everything about it is severely messed up and tragic for all involved.   Right now he's being held without the option of bail since he's such a flight risk AND because of how dangerous he is deemed for his skill at manipulation.  I really hope the charges stick.  

Edited March 28, 2018 by BkWurm1

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Again, I'm not saying that AM shouldn't be held accountable for her actions, she should and it may be the only thing that might break through the years of conditioning, but it's impossible to forget how much he controlled, manipulated and messed up her mind and impossible to know how much was free will and how much was extortion.  I'm sure whatever the percentage, he had her convinced anything he asked was good and right.  And like the criminal complaint said, if anyone questioned anything asked of them, they were reminded of the teachings of the group about how weak women were and how inclined they were to break promises and that this secret group was supposed to break them of their weaknesses.  So that even questioning the methods was proof they were weak and needed to comply.  

THIS. I mean it's not a black and white issue. I've read where some just blindly believe that Allison was his "right hand man," ignoring how she got sucked in. I'm trying not to blame her, but it was Kristen Kreuk who got her in. I'm glad that Kristen got out, but Allison is not this EVUHL Monster as she's being portrayed or talked about. It's sad all around. Because I never thought that she would become a victim, and then someone who would turn around and do the things she's accused of doing. And that no one could pull her out in time.

[BkWurm1]

I was reminded that she was another one of those child actors.  She seemed to have made it to adulthood whole but I can't help but think now about all the unseen cracks probably ready to be exploited.  Growing up in a business that is always tearing you apart and already playing mind games combined with probably a naiveness that comes from not living in the real world, it's all a recipe for disaster.  

[blueray]

It's really sad what happened. I don't know much about the case but it's possible she was also a victim. She got involved in the cult and then he controlled her. Then she under threat or brainwash became a collaborator.

[screamin]

One hopes for her sake that she'll shake the brainwashing and turn state's evidence on him.

[DittyDotDot]

It's so sad to hear that Allison ended up in a cult. I don't know what she did or what was done to her--and TBH I don't really want to know; cult behavior is extremely unsettling to me--I just hope she, and everyone else who found themselves in the cult, can find themselves in a better place in the future. 

[Twilight Man]

On 3/28/2018 at 11:26 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

THIS. I mean it's not a black and white issue. I've read where some just blindly believe that Allison was his "right hand man," ignoring how she got sucked in. I'm trying not to blame her, but it was Kristen Kreuk who got her in. I'm glad that Kristen got out, but Allison is not this EVUHL Monster as she's being portrayed or talked about. It's sad all around.

and now Kristen is commenting stating that she never recruited anybody.  This story is just getting more weird by the minute.  SAVE ME, SUPERMAN!!!

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Twilight Man said:

and now Kristen is commenting stating that she never recruited anybody.  This story is just getting more weird by the minute.  SAVE ME, SUPERMAN!!!

Holy Cults, Batman! I thought Allison didn't get involved until her post-career, but both Kristen and her got involved during the fifth and sixth seasons! It's all so horribly sad, like I said; because she seemed to have a great support system, career wise from the directors/producers on Smallville. Because we learned she wanted to direct more. I think even Tom helped her out or something, from the dvd interviews. And that she felt so alone that she got sucked into this. I agree with @BkWurm1-that she should pay for what she did, but she's not the leader of this cult. And when so many people have empathy for normal people who get brainwashed and sucked in, it seems there is none for famous people who do.

Edited March 30, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[DisneyBoy]

http://torontosun.com/news/world/how-allison-mack-went-from-smallville-to-accused-sex-cult-recruiter/amp

 

I am stunned.

According to this report, she participated in girls being physically branded with her own initials....!!

 

.....

 

 

!!!!!

[Locutus]

I can't help but think all this insanity will taint rewatching smallville episodes. I used to love the naked gun movies, but now all I see when viewing it, is OJ. Takes me right out of the films. 

[BkWurm1]

I figure the first half of the show gets a pass because neither she nor KK were at all involved with the group and the later season they still were just at the stage of it being a self help group and the crazy came later.  Plus, why should I suffer for the actress's mistakes?  For me the difference between like the Naked Gun movies is I feel that the evil in OJ was probably always there, just hidden whereas with AM, I think even now at her worst, she thought/thinks she was doing it to help people or at least was brainwashed to not notice the harm. 

That isn't to say I didn't have to work through it before I could separate the two.

Edited April 1, 2018 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

She was convinced that the special women's group would empower and set its members free from their weaknesses and even the victims have explained they were told or it was implied that the pain they suffered during the branding process would strengthen their character and prove they could keep their vows.  Yes, it's all very twisted but there was real belief behind the madness.  And from descriptions of how closely she was controlled by KR, he very well might have been the one that decided what to brand the women with.  

I've repeatedly said that I think AM should be held accountable for her actions that have brought harm to others and I wonder if being arrested might be the best way to possibly wake her up, but there is hard evidence that she's been systemically brainwashed and basically tortured for years.  Kept starved to the point where apparently she stopped having her monthly cycles any more.  Kept sleep deprived and only even allowed to sleep if given permission by KR.  Physically punished by being beaten with a paddle and or locked in a cage. (And that's just what we know of)  And that's not even touching on any of the phycological warpings of her mind from his intensive teaching sessions.  

She's been under his control longer than I had any clue.  It's now come out that HE MADE her quit being a regular on Smallville in season 10 and only allowed her to do the few guest spots.  And kept her from ever doing too much acting before eventually having her quit completely, I'm guessing because that would take her OUT of his sphere of influence for too long.  

Borne out of past interviews, cast and fan interactions, I don't believe that there is evidence that AM is naturally inclined toward even speaking unkindly about people let alone that she had some deep evil just waiting to be set free.  But anyone under years of systemic abuse can be brought low and twisted and I despair over the cracks in her life that let this guy and his teachings get the first foothold but she's not alone.  Thousands of others were vulnerable to the monster that was set on preying on as many victims as he could.  Her celebrity, limited as it was, did probably mean she got even more of his personal attention and thus making it likely she was targeted even harder than a normal person.   

I'm not excusing the lines she's crossed, but I think it's smart to try and understand what really happened rather than dismissing it as a simple case of good vs evil.  

[JKL845]

• Please stop with the justification. Just because she once played a character you loved, it's hurtful and a disservice to the victims. No doubt he could point to something in his childhood, too. Kristen made her choices and Allison made hers. Let's hope the truth comes out and the victims get justice. If she is not found to be culpable and no charges brought against her, great. But if she is guilty her victims deserve justice without people excusing their pain. If she was convinced it would help the women he probably was too. Can't excuse either of them. If he's a monster, so is she. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by JKL845

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, JKL845 said:

• Please stop with the justification. Just because she once played a character you loved, it's hurtful and a disservice to the victims. No doubt he could point to something in his childhood, too. Kristen made her choices and Allison made hers. Let's hope the truth comes out and the victims get justice. If she is not found to be culpable and no charges brought against her, great. But if she is guilty her victims deserve justice without people excusing their pain. If she was convinced it would help the women he probably was too. Can't excuse either of them. If he's a monster, so is she. 

 

Knowledge isn't justification.  It's about trying to understand how this horrible mess could have happened.  So I do think it's perfectly valid to share the whole story. 

I'm not pointing to distant trauma in her childhood, but to systematic and ongoing stuff happening leading up in the last several years to what has happened now.  

I think KR is a monster and AM was one of his victims and in turn, AM has had her own victims.  But it's doesn't stop AM's story from also being incredibly sad and horrible.  Knowing the one doesn't IMO diminish the others who she hurt. 

And talking about the mess AM was involved in I think also brings to light what likely many of the unnamed victims in the DOS group went through.  But we have more specific information about AM because she was the clearly identifiable co-conspirator named in the 22-page criminal complaint brought against KR.  It does also say that beating slaves with a paddle is something that happened to some of them.  And that many also were put on a starvation diet.  And that they were kept sleep deprived and constantly told what to do in their lives.  The graphic photos, the blackmail material that was willing given at least at first, it's all a part of the same story.  

I don't believe that AM is inherently evil.  Others might think she is.  I'm ok if someone disagrees with me.  I don't know if AM will get arrested (though that's the rumbling) and if so, I don't know if she will get convicted or not.  I think even without a trial, I'll still believe the reports I read and the harm she's caused but I'll also believe what it said about the harm she has had done to her.  I have enough empathy for all involved. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, doram said:

@BkWurm1 : Do you have sources that all these things happened to Allison Mack? It sounds like the narrations of her victims's experiences.

 

2

It's in the criminal complaint filed against KR and from articles published by Artvoice, a site that has been working to expose this group for a long time.  And if her victim's experiences sound similar, it's probably because it's all from the same playbook.  

[BkWurm1]

Quote

.Allison portrayed a popular character for 10 years and it's easy to trick oneself into thinking that Allison is Chloe and one can know the inner workings of Allison's mind by knowing her character. The reality is that Allison Mack was just an actress doing her job in Smallville. Whatever innate evil that led her to join forces with this man and influence this cult is something that we can't be privy to.

I'm not saying anything based on the character she portrayed. Chloe Sullivan is a fictional creation. AM was never Chloe. 

 I'm basing saying that I think AM thought she was trying to do good based on what AM said and did in the past and present.  And also in the reasonableness of seeing that if she was subject to the same kind of physical conditioning as her future victims, it's also likely that she bought into the same mental conditioning that let them think that by joining the group and enduring punishments and pain like the branding, they were getting rid of the weaknesses KR preached were inherent in all woman.  It's what she was taught and so what she taught.  

If I was to say that only some kind of innate evil must have existed inside of her to allow her to buy into what this man said and did, then I'd be painting everyone that also was brainwashed into the group as well.  I believe that KR is the dangerous victimizer that the criminal complaint calls him when they asked for no bail because of the ongoing danger he brings to those he comes in contact with. 

Now i don't know the demons in AM's mind that let him in in the first place or let her continue the cycle of abuse on others or even if she developed some perverse pleasure in controlling or even in causing other's harm but I feel there is as much evidence that whatever she became sprang first from wanting to help as there is that she was just harboring evil. 

Quote

No doubt her lawyers will spin a convincing story to paint her as equal to the women she tortured and branded, and because she's an actress she'll probably sell it. That doesn't mitigate the impact that her evil actions had on her victims or make them any less deserving of justice.

What sets her apart from other victims is the power she wielded.  Power that she used to perpetuate and expand the circle of abuse even if she didn't see it like that.  And for that, she needs to be held accountable.  So I don't see how also acknowledging what happened to her suggests letting her off the hook or depriving victims of justice. 

I think that some people just need to process this disturbing tale differently.  I think it's easier perhaps to see it as a clear case of good or evil as opposed to seeing it as someone normal who became this awful nightmare.  If AM was a normal person than anyone could be broken and warped like that and that's a scary concept. 

For me, I find trying to make sense of what happened helps even if I likely will never know all the reasons why.  Believing this is a tragedy all around doesn't mean I find AM blameless but this kind of cult mentality brainwashing stuff is serious stuff and should be a warning for everyone how insidious they can be and how they can warp and twist even people with the best of intentions.  It would be simpler if she was just another evil villain, or that we found out she'd always been a domineering sadist, but I just don't think that's the case.  

Edited April 3, 2018 by BkWurm1

[JKL845]

That's just it, you don't know. You are just speculating. But these are real women in real pain due to her actions. You already condemn him before his trial but coming up with excuses for her without all the facts. Maybe she was the one who escalated things and influenced him. You never know. The combination of the two of them working together made things worse. I don't think either of them are evil, but both of their actions are. 

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, JKL845 said:

That's just it, you don't know. You are just speculating. But these are real women in real pain due to her actions. You already condemn him before his trial but coming up with excuses for her without all the facts. Maybe she was the one who escalated things and influenced him. You never know. The combination of the two of them working together made things worse. I don't think either of them are evil, but both of their actions are. 

1

His history and stuff in the criminal complaint very much suggest otherwise.  He is though already claiming total innocence and nothing to do with the group despite the victim's statements and the cops pulling his emails that say otherwise.  But given the rabid devotion of his followers (The Mexican group put out something that implied KR is just like Jesus being wrongly persecuted), I would not be surprised if his people didn't try to shield him.  

I understand that you see what I see as learning details surrounding AM and the case and presenting those parts of the horror show as making excuses.  I don't see it that way.  We'll just have to agree to disagree about the benefit or harm of talking about those details while we both can agree that it's a very good thing that real steps against this criminal exploitation group are finally happening after years of mere rumor or inaction.    

[Flyingwoman]

Jesus, I just happened to be scrolling through another site and came across this news. I remember when I first heard about Raniere months ago I thought "Eh, some people like it kinky and have terrible taste in men," but now that I'm finally reading more I'm nauseated, but also just stunned at the colossal waste. This is literally the plot of every godawful "Voldemort won" Potterfic in existence and HOW does someone's real life end up like that? HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN.

 

(I'm divided on whether that's a rhetorical question. I know (Bkwurm has outlined reasons above) but... no, I really don't know. How does someone become Barty Crouch Jr?)

Edited April 3, 2018 by Flyingwoman
ugh my phone

[wingster55]

Allison isn't a victim in my eyes. At some point she has to own her actions, even if she was manipulated.

[galleta]

I was so shocked when I read the headlines about AM's involvement in this cult. I was a big fan back in the days of TWOP and used to read her blog on her website.  I remember her writing about trying to find her place in the industry and how it was working with someone as beautiful as Kristin Kreuk. To go from that to cult Co conspirator is wild. 

Another thing that struck out at me was how Keith was able to get the Seagram sisters to fund him with $100 million dollars.  Just absolutely mind boggling. 

[MissL]

On 3/30/2018 at 10:00 PM, DisneyBoy said:

http://torontosun.com/news/world/how-allison-mack-went-from-smallville-to-accused-sex-cult-recruiter/amp

 

I am stunned.

According to this report, she participated in girls being physically branded with her own initials....!!

 

.....

 

 

!!!!!

Yikes. Kinda funny but not really...the article has a picture of Allison and KK but the caption just refers to KK as "a friend".  So whoever wrote the article for real didn't know who KK was or was trying to be kind and leave her out of it. Man this is awful. 

[BkWurm1]

7 hours ago, galleta said:

Another thing that struck out at me was how Keith was able to get the Seagram sisters to fund him with $100 million dollars.  Just absolutely mind boggling. 

 

From what I read like $75 mil of that was just covering his bad investments on the stock market.  Not that it was his fault.  Apparently, his haters conspired to sabotage him, lol.  The ignorance and the arrogance remains mindboggling.  

Edited April 5, 2018 by BkWurm1

[Unclejosh]

Apparently Allison and Nikki Clyne are married.  I guess for Visa reasons.

[Flyingwoman]

On 4/4/2018 at 3:56 PM, galleta said:

  I remember her writing about trying to find her place in the industry and how it was working with someone as beautiful as Kristin Kreuk. To go from that to cult Co conspirator is wild. 

I read some of her blog after season 8 or 9 ended - and she was writing about having made a commitment to do something really out of her comfort zone and how scary that was, and also that she was eating a lot to cope - which was making her more stressed. It was right before she worked on "Marilyn" and so at the time I thought it might have been about accepting that role, and general industry pressure to keep weight down . Now I wonder if it was cult-related, particularly the anxiety around her eating.

[greenbean]

Apparently Allison's parents have worked for NXIVM and defended them after being told to get Allison out. This doesn't surprise me one bit. I've been wondering where they are while their daughter's life is taken over and destroyed. Seeing as Allison is now co-conspirator #1, I guess we'll eventually learn what happened.

[Unclejosh]

Allison Mack arrested today.  Will be charged with sex trafficking among other charges.

[BkWurm1]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/krystieyandoli/smallville-allison-mack-arrested-keith-rainere-sex-nxivm?

Quote

Mack and Raniere were both charged with sex trafficking, sex trafficking conspiracy and forced labor conspiracy. The two face a minimum sentence of 15 years imprisonment and could potentially receive a lifetime imprisonment sentence if convicted.

[screamin]

Well, holy shit...

[Winston Wolfe]

On 4/3/2018 at 4:14 AM, BkWurm1 said:

It would be simpler if she was just another evil villain, or that we found out she'd always been a domineering sadist, but I just don't think that's the case.  

Just read the whole indictment and detainment memo.  Can't possibly understand how anyone can view AM's behavior - even if the result of brainwashing - as anything other than evil.  As well as hurtful and life-scarring to the victims.

[xtwheeler]

On 4/2/2018 at 9:42 PM, JKL845 said:

• Please stop with the justification. Just because she once played a character you loved, it's hurtful and a disservice to the victims. No doubt he could point to something in his childhood, too. Kristen made her choices and Allison made hers. Let's hope the truth comes out and the victims get justice. If she is not found to be culpable and no charges brought against her, great. But if she is guilty her victims deserve justice without people excusing their pain. If she was convinced it would help the women he probably was too. Can't excuse either of them. If he's a monster, so is she. 

 

On 4/4/2018 at 10:45 AM, wingster55 said:

Allison isn't a victim in my eyes. At some point she has to own her actions, even if she was manipulated.

I have to agree with both of these. I wouldn't excuse the serial rapes and molestations that have come to light in the Catholic Church in the past few years by saying "those men were abused as children, too." That is absolutely abhorrent. While we are greatly shaped by our experiences, particularly ones as profound as these, none of is without free will. Of course this kind of grooming and brainwashing can be devastatingly effective, but we all have personal responsibility at the end of the day. It isn't terribly morally comple to know that branding someone against their will, holding blackmail information on someone in order to control their behavior, extorting money, particularly beyond a person's financial means to survive, and knowingly, intentionally crossing people's clearly stated sexual boundaries in order to "make a point" are morally wrong. The difference is those participating in this cult, like AM knew absolutely it was wrong, but let themselves get convinced to participate anyway. I'm sure she is suffering deeply somewhere inside on many levels, and I'm sure there will be a personal reckoning for her, but the legal reckoning is coming first. What a ride that will be.

[Winston Wolfe]

1 hour ago, xtwheeler said:

I'm sure there will be a personal reckoning for her, but the legal reckoning is coming first. What a ride that will be.

This strikes close to home on a personal level.  I read recently that AM had moved to my beloved home town of Brooklyn, NY and was holding frequent recruitment meetings here.  The thought of her and KR preying on eager millennials looking for mentoring makes me sick to my stomach.  Hope the Judge throws both of them under the jailhouse.

[xtwheeler]

5 minutes ago, Winston Wolfe said:

This strikes close to home on a personal level.  I read recently that AM had moved to my beloved home town of Brooklyn, NY and was holding frequent recruitment meetings here.  The thought of her and KR preying on eager millennials looking for mentoring makes me sick to my stomach.  Hope the Judge throws both of them under the jailhouse.

Wow, that actually wasn't even a piece I had thought about. I HOPE that it was too expensive for many millennials to afford if they were looking for mentoring. But more broadly, just like every other exploitative cult, their bread and butter has been finding the people who were the most vulnerable to their specific brand of bullshit and laying it on thick. Being taken advantage of is unfortunately epidemic when people start looking outside themselves to find things like empowerment, confidence, motivation, etc. You can't borrow that from other people (which is still no excuse for other people abusing those who are seeking it). What a mess.

[Winston Wolfe]

33 minutes ago, xtwheeler said:

I HOPE that it was too expensive for many millennials to afford if they were looking for mentoring.

It actually was.

https://pagesix.com/2018/04/09/alleged-sex-cult-recruits-hipsters-in-brooklyn/

Incredible - $10,000 to join a cult.  What scares me the most about that article is the young people who took that BS seriously and decided to stay for the entire presentation.  I remember being 24, 25 years old, searching for answers.  Really sad that there are folks out there willing to seriously exploit young people who are just looking for some guidance.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Winston Wolfe

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Just read the whole indictment and detainment memo.  Can't possibly understand how anyone can view AM's behavior - even if the result of brainwashing - as anything other than evil.  As well as hurtful and life-scarring to the victims.

I can view the behavior as evil without assuming that's all there is or ever was to AM.  Brainwashing at the level she was getting and for how long it had been going on, it muddies the black and white of things. It makes people believe wrong is right and she might never be deprogrammed but I hope that isn't the case. 

Yes, people are still accountable for their actions in the end I think her arrest was a good step in the right direction, but the truth is the same horrible mind control techniques AM used on her victims to get them to hand over their blackmail material and stick around to be branded and to hold other women down when it was their turns to be branded were also used on AM.  The brainwashing wasn't a trauma from her distant past, it was what had been going on since she was one of those searching young people who got snared by a really bad group. I don't see having compassion for a life gone really horribly wrong as letting her off the hook. 

I am fully behind her facing the full force of whatever punishment is merited but yeah, ten or fifteen years from now I'd love to hear that AM was deprogrammed and living a normal life.  I'd hope that for the victims in DOS as well.  Even with KR in jail, reports say that 40 out of the 50 women were still "loyal".  How disturbing it that?  But for me, tracing back what led to this disaster with AM doesn't lessen my compassion for her victims.  One can exist alongside the other.  

I've been following AM's involvement with the cult for many years so chances are I am in a different stage of grief about it than some people.  I'm not trying to dismiss anyone's rage.  But I think it's important to let everyone process and react in their own way and pace without judging them too harshly.    

So I'm saying it's ok to mourn for everyone involved in this horrible mess, including ourselves as fans of Smallville. It's also ok to simply hate AM.  I don't mean to try to deny someone's right to feel that way.  But I would hope then that I wouldn't be denied my right to feel a different way which includes talking about how sad a lot of the details about all of this are for everyone involved.  

[Katsullivan]

5 hours ago, Winston Wolfe said:

Can't possibly understand how anyone can view AM's behavior - even if the result of brainwashing - as anything other than evil.  As well as hurtful and life-scarring to the victims.

If half of what she's accused of is true - she received money in exchange for recruiting this women into this sex cult - a far cry from a young, brainwashed puppet who was just as much a victim as the real victims  - then evil does not begin to describe her. 

She wasn't being motivated by some dark perversion that Rainer had tapped into ---- but mundane greed. 

[kikaha]

I just saw about ten seconds of Allison interviewing Raniere.  He was mouthing psycho-babble, while she gazed adoringly into his eyes.  My first thought was "Charles Manson." 

[SueB]

It's a nightmare.  Just a nightmare. I hope they get to each of the victims, get them help, and somehow develop a long term recovery path.  Having read the indictment, I think they have no intention of cutting any deals for either Raniere or AM.  Looking at the brand, I see BOTH of their names.  KR may have roped AM in at the start, but you don't burn your initials into another human being and think it's a good thing.  Even if she's living in some mental fantasy construct, she's allegedly done some serious evil in the name of that construct and was making a living off of it.  

And honestly, it makes me personally feel kinda gross.  I haven't followed AM for years on SM, but I can remember what she stated as her beliefs and they are so in conflict with this indictment.  And yet that is the insidious element of a cult: wolf in sheep's clothing. Again, these are still allegations only but fairly consistent with past reports.  That they indicted her, rather than seeing her as a victim, is very telling.  

[Bercilak]

She's been formally charged.  I'm not surprised that she pleaded not guilty, but her career is destroyed regardless of the ultimate outcome.  Such a shame, too.  She was really charming on screen.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43846243

[Rina99]

4 hours ago, Bercilak said:

She's been formally charged.  I'm not surprised that she pleaded not guilty, but her career is destroyed regardless of the ultimate outcome.  Such a shame, too.  She was really charming on screen.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43846243

 

I'm sure that comforted her victims as she burned her initials into their flesh.

[Chas411]

This is just insane. Last thing I saw her in ironically was an episode of The Following.