S00.E159: Legend of the Sea Devils

[DanaK]

Quote

In a swashbuckling special adventure, the Doctor, Yaz and Dan come face to fin with one of the Doctor’s oldest adversaries, the Sea Devils. Why has legendary pirate queen Madam Ching come searching for a lost treasure? What terrifying forces lurk beneath the oceans of the 19th century? And did Yaz really have to dress Dan up as a pirate?

So sorry about not creating this before the special started. With all the stuff happening, I forgot

Very enjoyable special and some good Thasmin content

AMC+ let me down again, as I couldn’t find the special on the network, so I watched via BBC America

[Lantern7]

Not bad . . . though I'm willing to bet a lot of people got more from the teaser of this Doctor's finale than from two eras of China and the return of the Sea Devils.

I'm assuming "Thasmin" (thanks, @DanaK) means Doctor/Yasmin. With the Doctor and her history, it gets really, really complicated. Would Yasmin like the Doctor if she becomes something else? Would that lead to a situation where Clara got irritated her Doctor turned into an old grumpy Scotsman? I don't hate the idea, but I'm guessing there are tons of posts detesting the idea. Also . . . did the Doctor bring up River and more or less rank Yasmin up there? Or at least near there? I'm thinking Chibnall is content to anger as many people as he can on the way out. I'm not one of them, though.

I'll keep saying it . . . Jodie does a great job as the Doctor. The role can be filled by anyone of any gender, and she's gotten a good handle on it. Or maybe she looks a little better because I bristled with Capladi's Doctor before Moffat went, "Okay, he's a rock-n-roll rebel now!" She does the dramatic moments, she does the funny moments, and she's good at all the other stuff. I can't ask for much more.

I'll probably have to rewatch. Sea Devils looked good . . . but with the underwater monsters, was anyone else listening for the word "Myrka"?

[Llywela]

Well, that was a romp. Some of the emotional beats were a bit perfunctory, especially among the guest characters, but it was entertaining enough for an Easter evening. Almost makes me want to revisit Pertwee's tussle with the Sea Devils!

The trailer was definitely the most exciting thing about it, though.

As far as the Doctor and Yaz go...I'm never a fan of romantic entanglements between the Doctor and any companion, and I'm kinda disappointed that Yaz has become yet another NuWho companion who has fallen in love with the Doctor to the point where she can't see anything else. I miss the Yaz of season one who had ambition, who knew she wasn't going to be a probationary constable forever, the Yaz who wanted to work her way to the top. I might appreciate her falling for the Doctor more if we'd seen more of the tension involved in having to let go of the life she had before in order to stay with the Doctor, if we'd seen her make that choice, or at least realise that she'd already made it and face up to the consequences. I can't remember the last time she even mentioned either her family or her job.

Dan's little phone call with Di at the end there seems to signal his leaving story - he'll go home to try to make it work with her.

[DoctorAtomic]

How is it on already? I thought it started in 15 minutes. 

[DanaK]

8 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

How is it on already? I thought it started in 15 minutes. 

BBC America simulcasted it with the BBC at 2:10pm ET, and will repeat at 8pm ET. I posted that in the specials thread. I guess you missed the endless BBC America promos too?

[PWHCHCH]

Terrible episode but that next time trailer blew my mind! 

Yaz has done nothing on screen to justify the praise the Doctor keeps giving her. 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

I usually watch online, so I didn't see any advertisements. My tivo guide didn't have it listed and I only saw it was on now. I don't like to be spoiled so I didn't look in the other threads. It's not a big deal. I thought I missed it, that's all. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Well, I'm certainly not going to turn down anything pirate related. The sea devils looked kind of scary for kids. They were creeping me out a little. The ships looked gorgeous though. The Doctor's getup too. I had no idea the Sea Devils were from the Classic Era. 

Poor Dan though. Yaz totally sent him up. The actor is brilliant at the unintentional humor though.

2 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

She does the dramatic moments, she does the funny moments, and she's good at all the other stuff. I can't ask for much more.

She also does the sheer ridiculous amount of words the Doctor belts out like Ten and Eleven did. The sign of a good Doctor is that I wished they had just one or two more adventures before they go. I'd like to see some more of Thirteen. 

Is the Doctor still married to River then? It's all timey-whimey. I did like the Doctor saying that time always run out. 

 

 

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, Llywela said:

As far as the Doctor and Yaz go...I'm never a fan of romantic entanglements between the Doctor and any companion, and I'm kinda disappointed that Yaz has become yet another NuWho companion who has fallen in love with the Doctor to the point where she can't see anything else.

I could take it or leave it. It doesn't bother me that much. I would question the 'romantic' part overall though. The Doctor was still 900 by the time Nine met Rose, and her being 19, you can see her becoming enamoured of him. It's not unreasonable that with some Companions that's going to happen. I couldn't see the Doctor actually returning the feelings, and being so alien and so much older, I can't imagine any relationship the Doctor might entertain would be more than a dalliance at best. 

What does bother me is the Companions having a tragic ending. I don't know who is sticking around after Fourteen or not, but I want them to go home to a better life for having traveled with the Doctor. 

[DanaK]

2 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Not bad . . . though I'm willing to bet a lot of people got more from the teaser of this Doctor's finale than from two eras of China and the return of the Sea Devils.

I'm assuming "Thasmin" (thanks, @DanaK) means Doctor/Yasmin. With the Doctor and her history, it gets really, really complicated. Would Yasmin like the Doctor if she becomes something else? Would that lead to a situation where Clara got irritated her Doctor turned into an old grumpy Scotsman? I don't hate the idea, but I'm guessing there are tons of posts detesting the idea. Also . . . did the Doctor bring up River and more or less rank Yasmin up there? Or at least near there? I'm thinking Chibnall is content to anger as many people as he can on the way out. I'm not one of them, though.

I'll keep saying it . . . Jodie does a great job as the Doctor. The role can be filled by anyone of any gender, and she's gotten a good handle on it. Or maybe she looks a little better because I bristled with Capladi's Doctor before Moffat went, "Okay, he's a rock-n-roll rebel now!" She does the dramatic moments, she does the funny moments, and she's good at all the other stuff. I can't ask for much more.

I'll probably have to rewatch. Sea Devils looked good . . . but with the underwater monsters, was anyone else listening for the word "Myrka"?

The Thasmin ship is a combo of the Thirteenth Doctor (Thirteen) and Yasmin, thus Thasmin

[DanaK]

AMC+ finally has the special available, though I don’t know exactly when it went up

[ichbin]

I am so ready for Russell T Davies to take over. I've watched every episode including this one hoping my enjoyment in doing so will return, but no, my boredom only increases.    I have no issue with the current cast. The actors are fine.  It's the material they are given to work with. It's just not fun anymore and hasn't been for a very long time.  I hope Davies can bring back what he brought to the franchise when he revived it with the Ninth Doctor.

[John Potts]

I read that the Sea Devils hadn’t been seen for over 40 years and thought “That can’t be true – I've seen them in (new) episodes before and… oh, right" (unlike the Doctor, time creeps up on most of us!). Overall, I thought it was fine - not great, but not bad either.

7 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Sea Devils looked good . . . but with the underwater monsters, was anyone else listening for the word "Myrka"?

Yes! I thought the giant sea serpent was going to be revealed to be an updated Myrka, even if it looked nothing like it did when Five confronted it (must be the distorting effect of being underwater).

I'm generally not a fan of shipping, but I liked how it was handled here. I wasn't clear if the Doctor was shutting it down here because of the power (and age!) differential or because she (believes she) is dying, though I suppose it could be both. And why was Yaz so surprised the Doctor had a wife before? She knows she's old (even if the Doctor hasn't mentioned she actually millennia old), it shouldn't be much of a surprise she has a (long!) history.

Spoiler

Wow! Ace is back! Sometimes I'm glad I don't read Spoilers.

 

 

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

Dan's little phone call with Di at the end there seems to signal his leaving story - he'll go home to try to make it work with her.

I do wish that successive showrunners wouldn't feel the need to change the whole cast, but I like it when Companions leave because they want to, not because they're forced out.

[QuantumMechanic]

8 hours ago, PWHCHCH said:

Terrible episode but that next time trailer blew my mind! 

Yaz has done nothing on screen to justify the praise the Doctor keeps giving her. 

 

Yeah really! Ridiculous to compare Yaz to River, for example.

And totally agree about the episode being quite dire. Lots of wonky editing, too.

I was kinda hoping the critter would turn out to be a/the skarasen :)

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by QuantumMechanic

[Llywela]

10 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

How is it on already? I thought it started in 15 minutes. 

 

10 hours ago, DanaK said:

BBC America simulcasted it with the BBC at 2:10pm ET, and will repeat at 8pm ET. 

Also, some of us are in the UK and so just watch the initial BBC airing. 😉

[PWHCHCH]

I can’t help think that the comments by Dr and Yaz regarding Dans outfit in the beginning should have been switched around. It makes way more sense for the Dr to think that was a perfectly normal thing to wear and for yaz to be like wtf. 

[John Potts]

For a celebrity historical, I’m glad we got a real pirate Queen (Madam Ching) as a main character. I did wonder if we would get a mention of the Chinese Emperor essentially allowing his own navy to rot (Zheng He – at about the right time period, too) in response to this, though that would be hard to incorporate into a story (and keep under budget!)

[Eulipian 5k]

This seemed like a regular one-off adventure that got put into a "Special Episode" slot. It wasn't that special, except for the nostalgia factor for Classic Who fans. Are Sea Devils native to Earth, or just refugees who came here before "land crawlers"?

[HauntedBathroom]

Shite, and worse than that, dull as fuck. Sling your hook Chibby, and make room for someone who remembers that Doctor Who is supposed to be fun. As long as he doesn't bring Rose back, anything RTD does has to be better than this. Even if he does being Rose back, it'll still be better.

[DanaK]

3 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

This seemed like a regular one-off adventure that got put into a "Special Episode" slot. It wasn't that special, except for the nostalgia factor for Classic Who fans. Are Sea Devils native to Earth, or just refugees who came here before "land crawlers"?

Native to Earth, which is why they don't like humans because the Sea Devils want to be in control

[Starchild]

I found that to be a confusing mess. It seemed to be merely a vehicle for confirming that Yaz' love is requited.

About that, I can understand how Yaz might fall for the Doctor, honestly who wouldn't, even a little bit, in some form.

But what does the Doctor see in Yaz? 

Sticking with nuWho, where it's been overt, some of the companions the Doctor has fallen for, I can kind of see it. I can see how enthusiastic, optimistic Rose would be alluring to a damaged, war-weary Nine/Ten.

I can see how a confident, adventurous Clara could be a draw for a Doctor who is sullen and misanthropic. Donna would have worked very well for him too, what with her unrelenting compassion.

And I can see pretty much every iteration of the Doctor (not just Eleven) being attracted, intellectually if not always physically, to River.

But Yaz is one of the blandest companions I've ever watched (and I'm including classic Who). There's absolutely nothing unique about her personality. And there's nothing about this Doctor's emotional self (that I've seen) that would seem to need whatever Yaz has going.

I'm sorry, but Yaz is no River Song, that was just insulting.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Starchild

[benteen]

I liked the design of all things Sea Devils, there was some fun to be had, good guests, a fun performance by John Bishop and some good stuff between The Doctor and Yaz at the end. But I felt that this episode was rushed and Covid-affected and felt it showed throughout. 

I am really looking forward to the next episode though. Very exciting stuff.

[Llywela]

4 hours ago, Starchild said:

I found that to be a confusing mess. It seemed to be merely a vehicle for confirming that Yaz' love is requited.

About that, I can understand how Yaz might fall for the Doctor, honestly who wouldn't, even a little bit, in some form.

But what does the Doctor see in Yaz? 

Sticking with nuWho, where it's been overt, some of the companions the Doctor has fallen for, I can kind of see it. I can see how enthusiastic, optimistic Rose would be alluring to a damaged, war-weary Nine/Ten.

I can see how a confident, adventurous Clara could be a draw for a Doctor who is sullen and misanthropic. Donna would have worked very well for him too, what with her unrelenting compassion.

And I can see pretty much every iteration of the Doctor (not just Eleven) being attracted, intellectually if not always physically, to River.

But Yaz is one of the blandest companions I've ever watched (and I'm including classic Who). There's absolutely nothing unique about her personality. And there's nothing about this Doctor's emotional self (that I've seen) that would seem to need whatever Yaz has going.

I'm sorry, but Yaz is no River Song, that was just insulting.

I think she is drawn to Yaz's loyalty. This is a Doctor who has had her world shattered - her sense of self, even. She's got her world back only to see it destroyed again. She no longer knows who she truly is or where she came from. She has unearthed devastating truths about her past, a past she doesn't even remember. But through it all, there has been Yaz, quietly supportive even when she doesn't understand what's wrong, full of care and concern, doggedly determined never to leave the Doctor's side no matter what. I can see how that loyalty would be appealing to this Doctor, would be a thing she wishes she could reward. (And Yaz has been so eager to learn from the Doctor, and although they've not made a big show of it with this Doctor, they do have their ego, every Doctor likes to be flattered).

And the Doctor does like to get attached to whoever is with them at the time, despite their protestations. They don't like saying goodbye, don't like having to start again. So she'll be looking for reasons to want to keep this one longer than she should.

Plus, there's an element of mollification. She is saying what she knows Yaz needs to hear. Letting her down gently. I do like you, Yaz, honest, but it can't ever happen.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Llywela

[Starchild]

Agree to disagree I suppose.

But I find absolutely nothing compelling about Yaz, so I find it hard to swallow that a millennias-old entity who has literally met tens of thousands of compelling people across the universe over the centuries would find Yaz to be someone they would spend the rest of their lives with if it were possible.

[DanaK]

Overnights: 2.2 million viewers, 7th for the night (or 11th if you include regional news). Not a great figure but there was stiff competition from ITV's Britain's Got Talent. Viewership overall was down given it was Easter Sunday

[DanaK]

BTS on the sword fights:

 

[Llywela]

Speaking of the sword fights, one thing that struck me was the Doctor's vehement reaction when Ji Hun killed a single Sea Devil contrasted with Dan taking down about four with one swipe (with the poisonous Sea Devil sword) and it being treated as a humorous moment. Inconsistent show is inconsistent.

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Speaking of the sword fights, one thing that struck me was the Doctor's vehement reaction when Ji Hun killed a single Sea Devil contrasted with Dan taking down about four with one swipe (with the poisonous Sea Devil sword) and it being treated as a humorous moment. Inconsistent show is inconsistent.

Maybe because they were still in the midst of the battle when Dan killed them, while it was pretty much over when Ji Hun executed the last one. I only watched once though, so I could absolutely be misremembering that.

[DanaK]

44 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Maybe because they were still in the midst of the battle when Dan killed them, while it was pretty much over when Ji Hun executed the last one. I only watched once though, so I could absolutely be misremembering that.

I think you got them in the wrong order. Ji Hun killed the leader first, after he was down, which the Doctor protested, then a little later Dan killed a few of them that were advancing on him and Ji Hun. But the Doctor wasn’t around to witness that

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, DanaK said:

I think you got them in the wrong order. Ji Hun killed the leader first, after he was down, which the Doctor protested, then a little later Dan killed a few of them that were advancing on him and Ji Hun. But the Doctor wasn’t around to witness that

Ah, okay thanks - I wasn't sure.

[NeenerNeener]

On 4/18/2022 at 1:06 AM, QuantumMechanic said:

Yeah really! Ridiculous to compare Yaz to River, for example.

Or Queen Elizabeth I, since Eleven married her too. Or even comparing her to Susan's grandmother, although as far as I know, Susan's gran has never been in an episode.

Edited April 19, 2022 by NeenerNeener

[benteen]

I don't think The Doctor has ever mentioned his Gallifrey wife, other than mentioning he had been married.

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

I don't think The Doctor has ever mentioned his Gallifrey wife, other than mentioning he had been married.

I believe the Doctor (maybe 12) said at one point he ran off with the President's wife or daughter or something and there was the implication (maybe thought so by fans) that he married her

[libgirl2]

On 4/19/2022 at 12:58 PM, Starchild said:

Agree to disagree I suppose.

But I find absolutely nothing compelling about Yaz, so I find it hard to swallow that a millennias-old entity who has literally met tens of thousands of compelling people across the universe over the centuries would find Yaz to be someone they would spend the rest of their lives with if it were possible.

I didn't want to spend time with her on the series! 

[DanaK]

7-day UK ratings: 3.47 million, 3rd for the day overall (1st for the BBC) and 25th for the week overall (10th for the BBC)

Edited April 25, 2022 by DanaK

[sharifa70]

Delayed viewing here: 22 minutes in and the editing has been a hot, confused mess. No fun whatsoever and I hate to say this but I think I’m going to end up fast-forwarding quite a lot. Judging by all the choppy nonsense I’ve been subjected to so far, it won’t matter.

I know Chibnall didn’t direct this but he did co-write it and I cannot wait for him to exit. Jodie Whittaker is a good Doctor but Chibnall’s writing has done her a disservice; I would have liked to see what she could have been with Davies at the helm.

Also: I cannot for one second buy that Yaz is the greatest person The Doctor has ever known when that group includes Rose, River, and Donna. Nothing in the writing of Yaz as a character comes even close to those three. Hell, she doesn’t stand up to Martha either. Or Amy. 

Edited May 1, 2022 by sharifa70

[Llywela]

9 hours ago, sharifa70 said:

Also: I cannot for one second buy that Yaz is the greatest person The Doctor has ever known when that group includes Rose, River, and Donna. Nothing in the writing of Yaz as a character comes even close to those three. Hell, she doesn’t stand up to Martha either. Or Amy. 

The Doctor didn't call Yaz the greatest person she has ever known. She called her one of the greatest people she has ever known. The Doctor tends to feel that way about everyone they travel with, so it really isn't out of keeping. Especially in a scene where she was well aware of Yaz's feelings for her and was trying to let her down gently.

[tennisgurl]

I'm a sucker for pirates and sea monsters, so I had fun with this one, even if I wish that one of 13's last adventures had been more memorable. Besides the sea devils nostalgia and the further relationship between Yaz and the Doctor, there was nothing to make this feel very special. It felt disjointed at times, just a bunch of scenes happening, it left me wishing it had used its cool premise more. It just felt like another regular, pretty unmemorable, episode, not an Easter special and not one of a Doctors last outings. Jodi did great as always at least, I will miss her and her particular kind of manic energy, but I think that's the sign of a good Doctor. Always leave them wanting more. 

I am generally not fond of romantic relationships between the Doctor and his companions, both because it can never really work out long term and because I just prefer the Doctor and his companions to just be good friends with the complications of romance, but I especially don't care about Yaz and the Doctor. Its really taken Yaz and made her less of her own character and more into just a love interest, which is a real disservice to her. She used to have all of these motivations about her family and wanting to move up in her career, but now she is all about the Doctor and how much she wants her. I do get why the Doctor is interested in Yaz, I think she admires her loyalty and how she was there for her during a hard time when she has struggled to trust people, but I am really not that invested in their love story, especially if their relationship ends up taking over 13's big ending. 

I found the "don't let the sword touch your skin!" line to be hilarious. Even without being coated in poison, keeping swords away from your flesh seems like pretty obvious advice.

I was definitely on Ji-Hun's side about killing the head Sea Devil, while I really can respect the Doctor wanting to end problems without killing whenever possible, when done well its one of the Doctors best traits, sometimes I find their stands against killing to be rather ridiculous. For me, leaving someone trapped forever in the bottom of the sea doesn't exactly sound better than killing them, in fact it sounds a lot worse than giving them a quick death. Its like when the Doctor threw a fit when that corrupt businessman shot those giant spiers in the head in Arachnids in the UK instead of trapping them and leaving them to starve like The Doctor wanted, how is that more merciful? I guess the Doctors reasoning tends to be more about motives for killing than the actual killing, so because the corrupt businessman was killing the spiders for shady reasons, it was bad, like Ji-Hun wanting to kill the Sea Devil because of everything he did to him, instead of because it needed to be done. I guess? But from an ethical perspective, how much does that matter? They're still dead, no matter the motive behind the person who did it, and isn't that the bigger issue the Doctor should have? But Ji-Hun made a lot of really good points about why he should kill the Sea Devil beyond what it did to him personally, plus it was a real threat to the whole world if it got out again, I think it was the right call and the Doctor was being rather annoying inconsistent about how to appropriately deal with bad guys. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by tennisgurl

[DanaK]

 

[JustHereForFood]

So I finally watched it, I liked it even though I am not a fan of anything about pirates. A self-contained fun adventure, which includes both monsters in ridiculous masks and real historical figures -> good Doctor Who episode.

On 4/18/2022 at 12:36 AM, DoctorAtomic said:

I could take it or leave it. It doesn't bother me that much. I would question the 'romantic' part overall though. The Doctor was still 900 by the time Nine met Rose, and her being 19, you can see her becoming enamoured of him. It's not unreasonable that with some Companions that's going to happen. I couldn't see the Doctor actually returning the feelings, and being so alien and so much older, I can't imagine any relationship the Doctor might entertain would be more than a dalliance at best. 

What does bother me is the Companions having a tragic ending. I don't know who is sticking around after Fourteen or not, but I want them to go home to a better life for having traveled with the Doctor. 

I am not a fan of Doctor-companion relationships for similar reasons, even though I understand why a young companion would fall for them. The only Doctor's relationship from the series that made sense to me (other then a confirmed relationship with Master, which we'll most likely never get) was with River Song, who felt more mature and the nature of their relationship when they met only occasionally made it work for me. But I don't consider her to be the most amazing character that some seem to, so I don't mind Doctor comparing Yaz to her.

Agreed with the wish for no horrible fate for companions.

 

On 4/19/2022 at 9:24 PM, Llywela said:

Speaking of the sword fights, one thing that struck me was the Doctor's vehement reaction when Ji Hun killed a single Sea Devil contrasted with Dan taking down about four with one swipe (with the poisonous Sea Devil sword) and it being treated as a humorous moment. Inconsistent show is inconsistent.

Yeah, Doctor's attitude to killing is often changing depending on the episode.

Personally, I'm a huge fan of killing in self defence or defence of others. You attack someone, you get what you want to dish out.

[DanaK]

28-day ratings: 3.698 million viewers