S06.E07: Sticks and Stones

[Athena]

Quote

Claire struggles with her demons as a nefarious rumor begins to spread on the Ridge. Tensions rise as the residents fear there is a dangerous person in their midst.

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This may include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

[cardigirl]

Well, at least Claire finally told Jamie what she has been going through emotionally and mentally this season. 
 

I was not as mesmerized by this episode as I was by the last one. I guess it was build up for the finale. Lizzie and the twins were supposed to be comic relief?

And Brianna is still not showing? Unbelievable!  My guess is that they filmed so many scenes out of sequence they forgot or didn't know where in the time line her scenes would be. 
 

Looks like things are going to get ugly next episode. 😩 Sad there's only one episode left. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by cardigirl

[GHScorpiosRule]

That was just horrible. I’d rather Jamie catching Claire dosing herself and then have her confessing and THEN Jamie bring up Wentworth.

PLEASE God. Let this be the LAST I see or hear that FUCKWIT Lionel.

And unless the show deviated from the buik, STFU Allan. Didn’t let kill Malva? 
Jamie should kick all of them coming with pitchforks (because of COURSE!🤬🤬🤬) for giving them land and ALL the fisher folk and Christie too.

Marsali and Fergus NEEDED to be there.

And I never gave any bluedilly FUCKS about Lizzie and the Beardsley twins’ in the buiks, and I DEFINITELY don’t in the show.

Edited April 24, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[Quickbeam]

I found this episode really bleak. Everyone is knocked up or dying. Did Caitriona give birth around this time? They were either doing the pregnancy hide thing or she looked really exhausted. Even in the book these story lines were skim worthy. Looking at you, Lizzie. 

[jqdeco]

Thank God for fast forward. I skipped all the Claire-ether-Lionel Brown crap plus Malva’s church “confession”.  I don’t know.  Choosing to paint the living room ceiling over watching this show is a sign I might be done.  It’s sad but I like everyone except Jamie and Claire right now..

[Eureka]

Please remind me how in the book do we find out Allan killed Malva? It’s been quite a while since I read this one.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Eureka

[dbklmt]

1 hour ago, Eureka said:

Please remind me how in the book do we find out Allen killed Malva? It’s been quite a while since I read this one.

Here's your answer from Wiki...

 

While Malva's murderer still remains unidentified, Richard Brown rides with his Committee of Safety onto the Ridge with the intention of having Claire tried and executed for the murder. However, Brown is thwarted by Tom Christie, who insists on coming along to ensure Claire's safety en route to the trial in New Bern.[8]

Tom later confesses to Malva's murder, although he did not do it; he tells Claire privately that he knew the girl was like her mother, a witch and a siren, luring men. He also tells her he found the remainder of Ephraim's bones in Malva's work basket, beating her for the truth. She confessed that when the love charm failed she became desperate. On a chance occasion, searching for plants, she had gone to help the sin-eater with illness and was present when the man died. Inspired by her training about germs, she collected blood and mucus from the dead sin-eater, let the mixture grow in a bottle placed in her dress, and contrived a way to get it into both his and Claire's food. She hoped that their deaths would be viewed as casualties of the existing epidemic, and with Claire out of the way, she could manipulate Jamie into providing shelter and money for her child. Tom believed that even though she had gotten away with the attempted murder, that there would be more attempts whereby she would eventually kill someone. Because of this and his love for Claire, he takes Claire's place as Malva's murderer.[9]

Later, after Claire has returned to the Ridge, she is confessor to Allan Christie, who explains that he was the one that fathered Malva's child, and then murdered her. He admits that Malva wished to come clean to Claire about the deception. Although Claire tries to convince Allan not to kill himself, to just leave and never come back, Young Ian takes the decision out of either of their hands by shooting Allan in the back with an arrow, killing him.[10]

[Haleth]

Well, that will be fun to watch next week. 

Ugh, I am soooooo sick of Claire's hallucinations and self medicating.  We get it, she's traumatized.  Enough.  Geez, the actor who plays Lionel got more lines than Fergus or Marsali this season.  Maybe combined!

Edited April 25, 2022 by Haleth

[aemom]

14 hours ago, dbklmt said:

Here's your answer from Wiki...

 

While Malva's murderer still remains unidentified, Richard Brown rides with his Committee of Safety onto the Ridge with the intention of having Claire tried and executed for the murder. However, Brown is thwarted by Tom Christie, who insists on coming along to ensure Claire's safety en route to the trial in New Bern.[8]

Tom later confesses to Malva's murder, although he did not do it; he tells Claire privately that he knew the girl was like her mother, a witch and a siren, luring men. He also tells her he found the remainder of Ephraim's bones in Malva's work basket, beating her for the truth. She confessed that when the love charm failed she became desperate. On a chance occasion, searching for plants, she had gone to help the sin-eater with illness and was present when the man died. Inspired by her training about germs, she collected blood and mucus from the dead sin-eater, let the mixture grow in a bottle placed in her dress, and contrived a way to get it into both his and Claire's food. She hoped that their deaths would be viewed as casualties of the existing epidemic, and with Claire out of the way, she could manipulate Jamie into providing shelter and money for her child. Tom believed that even though she had gotten away with the attempted murder, that there would be more attempts whereby she would eventually kill someone. Because of this and his love for Claire, he takes Claire's place as Malva's murderer.[9]

Later, after Claire has returned to the Ridge, she is confessor to Allan Christie, who explains that he was the one that fathered Malva's child, and then murdered her. He admits that Malva wished to come clean to Claire about the deception. Although Claire tries to convince Allan not to kill himself, to just leave and never come back, Young Ian takes the decision out of either of their hands by shooting Allan in the back with an arrow, killing him.[10]

It's been years and years since I read the book, so I can't remember if Book-Malva was present in the house nursing Claire back to health as she was on the show.  If she was, it really doesn't make any sense, because she would have had ample opportunity to make sure that Claire didn't survive the illness.

[SassAndSnacks]

Hi All, 

My name is Sassy and I love Outlander.  But I dinna love it last night (or this morning).  Not one little bit.  I almost started rage typing here around 11:00 pm EST, but I held off.  Now, I realize that I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed. (Read that in your best "Mom Voice.")

I've always said that a bad hour of Outlander is better than a lot of good hours of other shows, and I suppose that still holds true.  But in a season of 8 episodes, I don't think you can afford to have, nor should you actually have, a bad hour of Outlander.  And let's be real, we've sat through some bad hours of Outlander in the past - 

Season 1 - The Search --> But at least we had Murtaugh, and Claire was so clearly in love with Jamie.

Season 2 - The Fox's Lair --> But Jamie and Claire are together and working together, so the more stupid parts of the plot are palatable.

Season 3 - Creme de Menthe --> But Jamie and Claire are newly reunited, so let's overlook the whole unnecessary lobotomy. 

Season 4 - Most of It --> Eh....but we're building a new life on the Ridge, so...

Season 5 - Mercy Shall Follow Me --> Yeah, it's a lot of Bree, but at least we get rid of Stephen Bonnet by the end.

 

This episode...shit.  I don't even know.  Who are these people!!!!

Random Confluence of my Episodic Thoughts (Please note, I just pulled my hair into a ponytail because shit's 'bout to get real) - 

- Jamie --> This is NOT my JAMMF.  WTAF! Why does he have no emotion?  Get effing emotional!!  This is not the guy who yelled at Claire that she was ripping his guts out.  This is not the guy who sobbed as she relayed to him how their baby was lost.  This is not the guy who sobbed as he was leaving his son.  Who TF is this guy?  Your wife is standing in front of you, having a total emotional breakdown, and you stare at her wide-eyed?  People are making gross accusations about your wife and you just stand there and take it?  No thank you, sir. 

BuikJamie WOULD NEVER.  And this portrayal of a cooler Jamie pisses me off.  BuikJamie wrote a resignation note to the one and only George Washington in Claire's blood because he couldn't stand to be parted from her.  BuikJamie senses something was wrong with Claire after she saw her rapist and hunted the man down and killed him.  ShowJamie...THIS guy...can't tell that something is up with her for weeks?  THIS guy, after hearing her tell him that she has been taking ether to help her sleep, lets her go downstairs by herself for a cup of tea AGAIN?! WTAF! I don't understand these choices, and I hate them.  

- Jamie, again --> I get that Sam is gorgeous.  And has Jamie, I find him to be incredibly attractive, bad wigs and all.  But I feel like occasionally, he's objectified on this show, especially now that Cait is pregnant (during filming).  The views of him laying on the bed, perfectly lit, they're just odd.  It feels a little fetish-y.  I know, this is Outlander, there are a lot of fetishy things.

- Cait --> My goodness.  This woman.  She blows me away.  While I strongly feel that Sam has phoned it in a lot this season, she hasn't.  In an episode that I largely hated, I loved her. 

- Bree --> I strongly suspect that the lack of Bree interactions with other people has little to do Covid protocol and a lot to do with the actress just being completely unable to carry a scene.  She wasn't good last night, and I don't mean to harp on her, but c'mon.  She has so few lines every week, and even those aren't delivered well.  I did a total facepalm during the dinner scene when she said something to Jamie like "Is she <Claire> alright?"  Is sounded so forced and wooden.  That's your mother, honey, have some feeling.  And her interactions with Roger were so cringe.  

- Malva --> The intro with her in the church was a good choice.  It was creepy to see her brother in the background continuously, which was also a good choice.  Her words were so earnest because they were true, only they were about Allan and not Jamie.  

- The Truple --> It's a funny storyline, but it fell really flat for me.  Lizzie and Bros. are no Angus and Rupert.  There's a lot of traumatic shit going on at the Ridge right now, and throwing this storyline in there as comedic relief felt really misplaced.  Also, the final scene with Bree, Roger, Jamie, and Claire when they put together that Lizzie married two men was odd.  They were all like, "Welp, that's weird!  Gotta go!"  

- Lionel Brown --> Pretty sure we've seen him more than Fergus and Marsali this season, which is just wrong.  He was creepy as hell, and that was done in such a great way.  The moment where Jamie sees Claire distraught, rushing from her surgery because she sees Lionel in there, and then Jamie leads her back in, when Jamie turns and Lionel comes into the frame...wow...highlight of the episode.  

20 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

That was just horrible. I’d rather Jamie catching Claire dosing herself and then have her confessing and THEN Jamie bring up Wentworth.

YES!!  Why is he not paying more attention to her?!!  Literally, me screaming at the tv in with my best Nancy Kerrigan impression "Why God, Why?????"

17 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

I found this episode really bleak. Everyone is knocked up or dying. Did Caitriona give birth around this time? They were either doing the pregnancy hide thing or she looked really exhausted. Even in the book these story lines were skim worthy. Looking at you, Lizzie. 

I think this was one of the first episodes they filmed, so no, she wasn't close yet.  She would have been in early pregnancy, which from my experiences, can be really awful, so maybe it was for her.  The exhausted look was probably accurate though given that she isn't really sleeping.  

And yes, the Truple is completely skim-worthy.  It added nothing to this.  

44 minutes ago, aemom said:

I can't remember if Book-Malva was present in the house nursing Claire back to health as she was on the show.  If she was, it really doesn't make any sense, because she would have had ample opportunity to make sure that Claire didn't survive the illness.

She was, but she's also the one that made Claire sick.  Malva counted on Claire dying and was surprised when she didn't.  That's when the whole Baby Daddy plot came about.  

[aemom]

9 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

She was, but she's also the one that made Claire sick.  Malva counted on Claire dying and was surprised when she didn't.  That's when the whole Baby Daddy plot came about.  

I remembered very well that she made Claire sick.  What I don't get, is if Malva was one of the people nursing Claire back to health and she saw that Claire wasn't actually dying as expected, why didn't Malva finish her off?  She could have even suffocated her with a pillow and nobody there would have been able to tell that Claire was murdered and hadn't actually died from the illness.

[GHScorpiosRule]

38 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Jamie --> This is NOT my JAMMF.  WTAF! Why does he have no emotion?  Get effing emotional!! 

PREACH!!!! And Sam tweeted this and the finale are his favorite episodes? What's he smokin'?

MALVA!MALVA!MALVA! Like she's some beloved character who got shockingly kilt off. Give Me a Fucking BREAK.

27 minutes ago, aemom said:

I remembered very well that she made Claire sick.  What I don't get, is if Malva was one of the people nursing Claire back to health and she saw that Claire wasn't actually dying as expected, why didn't Malva finish her off?  She could have even suffocated her with a pillow and nobody there would have been able to tell that Claire was murdered and hadn't actually died from the illness.

Well, because Claire is the HEROINE of the series and buiks and Gabaldon wouldn't do that.

[aemom]

53 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Well, because Claire is the HEROINE of the series and buiks and Gabaldon wouldn't do that.

I realize that, but it's such a big plot hole.

 

As for Jamie not reacting when Claire is having her breakdown: I actually understand that Jamie didn't have much of a reaction.

I had a similar experience myself, where I just finally had to pour out everything to my husband - and he just sat there and listened without any reaction.  And I needed that.  I didn't need him to react, I just needed him to hear everything that I was saying and by him not reacting, I could tell that he was genuinely listening to everything that I just needed to say.

To me, it showed that Jamie wanted to hear everything from start to finish - that everything that she was saying was important - and that Jamie realized that Claire needed him to be strong - because they couldn't both fall apart at the same time.

[cardigirl]

2 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

 

Random Confluence of my Episodic Thoughts (Please note, I just pulled my hair into a ponytail because shit's 'bout to get real) - 

- Jamie --> This is NOT my JAMMF.  WTAF! Why does he have no emotion?  Get effing emotional!!  This is not the guy who yelled at Claire that she was ripping his guts out.  This is not the guy who sobbed as she relayed to him how their baby was lost.  This is not the guy who sobbed as he was leaving his son.  Who TF is this guy?  Your wife is standing in front of you, having a total emotional breakdown, and you stare at her wide-eyed?  People are making gross accusations about your wife and you just stand there and take it?  No thank you, sir. 

BuikJamie WOULD NEVER.  And this portrayal of a cooler Jamie pisses me off.  BuikJamie wrote a resignation note to the one and only George Washington in Claire's blood because he couldn't stand to be parted from her.  BuikJamie senses something was wrong with Claire after she saw her rapist and hunted the man down and killed him.  ShowJamie...THIS guy...can't tell that something is up with her for weeks?  THIS guy, after hearing her tell him that she has been taking ether to help her sleep, lets her go downstairs by herself for a cup of tea AGAIN?! WTAF! I don't understand these choices, and I hate them.  

I hear you, but I did appreciate Jamie's calm tone with Claire, when she was flagellating herself about her selfish choices creating so much trouble. He was supposed to be the voice of reason and calm, I think, saying without her choices there would be no Brianna, no Fergus, no Jemmie, and that those are great things that came out of her choices.   I did enjoy that scene.  Maybe it's played differently in the book. 

As a side comment that I forgot to mention earlier, I do not care for either Mr. or Mrs. Bug.  

And while Lionel is creepy, the actor is really doing a good job of playing that awful man.   

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

I hear you, but I did appreciate Jamie's calm tone with Claire, when she was flagellating herself about her selfish choices creating so much trouble.

I'm not saying that Jamie needed to be raging, but for fuck's sake, he should have clued in to what was going on with her months ago. That he was utterly clueless and wasn't aware of what she was feeling or going through is just not believable, when we saw how he saw her reaction and having PTSD leading up to Culloden; and knowing she was pregnant with Bree a few months later.

Or is Show and the writers trying to tell me, after over 20 years, Jamie doesna ken Claire as well any longer? BOLLOCKS to that, I say.

Or as stated above, after Claire finally tells him, when she says she's just going to go and have a cup o' tea, he thinks nothing of it.

I wasn't paying attention to the credits, so whoever wrote this piece of dreck, needs tae be slapped upside the heid.

And considering that Claire was raped AFTER the whole Malva nonsense, we can't refer to the buik to confirm this conversation.

Edited April 25, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[SassAndSnacks]

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

4 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

 

Random Confluence of my Episodic Thoughts (Please note, I just pulled my hair into a ponytail because shit's 'bout to get real) - 

- Jamie --> This is NOT my JAMMF.  WTAF! Why does he have no emotion?  Get effing emotional!!  This is not the guy who yelled at Claire that she was ripping his guts out.  This is not the guy who sobbed as she relayed to him how their baby was lost.  This is not the guy who sobbed as he was leaving his son.  Who TF is this guy?  Your wife is standing in front of you, having a total emotional breakdown, and you stare at her wide-eyed?  People are making gross accusations about your wife and you just stand there and take it?  No thank you, sir. 

BuikJamie WOULD NEVER.  And this portrayal of a cooler Jamie pisses me off.  BuikJamie wrote a resignation note to the one and only George Washington in Claire's blood because he couldn't stand to be parted from her.  BuikJamie senses something was wrong with Claire after she saw her rapist and hunted the man down and killed him.  ShowJamie...THIS guy...can't tell that something is up with her for weeks?  THIS guy, after hearing her tell him that she has been taking ether to help her sleep, lets her go downstairs by herself for a cup of tea AGAIN?! WTAF! I don't understand these choices, and I hate them.  

Expand  

I hear you, but I did appreciate Jamie's calm tone with Claire, when she was flagellating herself about her selfish choices creating so much trouble. He was supposed to be the voice of reason and calm, I think, saying without her choices there would be no Brianna, no Fergus, no Jemmie, and that those are great things that came out of her choices.   I did enjoy that scene.

I did too, actually.  

Someone in the Show Only thread gave a great take on Claire's personality type and why this is so much harder for her.  I wont copy it, because I don't want to inadvertently bring them to the Spoiler thread, but basically, Claire is a Type A "doer" and when you are a doer, you're a fixer and if you can't fix something, you take it much harder than you maybe would otherwise.  Anyway, that viewer said it much more eloquently than I just said it, but you get the gist.  

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

And while Lionel is creepy, the actor is really doing a good job of playing that awful man. 

Agree 100%.  It cant be easy to play that person, so I have a great deal of respect for him.  

12 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I'm not saying that Jamie needed to raging, but for fuck's sake, he should have clued in to what was going on with her months ago. That he was utterly clueless and wasn't aware of what she was feeling or going through is just not believable, when we saw how he saw her reaction and having PTSD leading up to Culloden; and knowing she was pregnant with Bree a few months later.

YES!!!

I just said this to someone else (so if you are reading this again, I'm sorry for being redundant) but Claire's family really bothered me.  She has no support system.  It frustrates me that no one could see or cared to see that she hasn't been ok.  No one bothered to take her aside and ask her a simple "How are you?" 

I'm sure I'm just sensitive to it, but it really bothers me.  No one said a word until she came to them, to Jamie, and even then his initial response to her admission that she was huffing ether was so unemotive.  He had a stronger reaction to Fergus's alcoholism, which I realize was more noticeable, but this is CLAIRE.  This is the woman who, when reunited with her, he told her that the best part of having her there was that he could talk to her and tell her anything.  Don't you think she deserves the same?

This is different from the book, because she didn't act this troubled and adrift in the book, so there would have been no reason for someone to be particularly attuned to her, unless she was having one of her flashbacks. In the show, they made her dependent upon the ether and made her have a greater, more realistic reaction to her trauma. And it's like no one cares.  Claire is abducted, meh. Raped, ok. Is betrayed by a loved one, who cares. Accused of murder, so?  It makes me so sad for her and so angry at everyone for being this unfeeling about it.  I want someone to be mad for her!

Marsali would care.  Marsali would have asked and been raging pissed at everyone for accusing her of this.

[cardigirl]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Or is Show and the writers trying to tell me, after over 20 years, Jamie doesna ken Claire as well any longer? BOLLOCKS to that, I say.

Or as stated above, after Claire finally tells him, when she says she's just going to go and have a cup o' tea, he thinks nothing of it.

I know I'm in trouble when GHScorpiosRule and SassAndSnacks reply to one of my posts. 😁

I have been upset all season that no one was aware that Claire was dosing herself. Brianna, of all people, should have some concern, having been through a brutal attack herself.   

About the cup o' tea comment, this might explain that exchange.  Ads for this tea appeared in my social media accounts on Sunday, and it was the first I'd heard of them, and thought it was product placement in the show.  Next we'll see Brianna and Roger carrying home supplies in a Target bag.  👀

[Cdh20]

On 4/24/2022 at 7:25 AM, cardigirl said:

Lizzie and the twins were supposed to be comic relief?

And Brianna is still not showing? Unbelievable!  My guess is that they filmed so many scenes out of sequence they forgot or didn't know where in the time line her scenes would be. 
 

 

Unfortunately the addition of this Lizzie plot was ill placed directly after Malva’s murder, so did not really add comic relief.

I thought Bri was showing a bit of a baby bump. Remember in these clothes they don’t always show until they are quite far along. Remember Claire in Paris - one day she was in normal clothes, then all of a sudden she was huge. We only saw that little bump when she was in her shift in her bedroom. 

 

I liked this episode, apparently more than most people.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Cdh20
Spelling

[Cdh20]

There was stuff to love in this episode: 

Jamie’s quiet restraint in the face of accusations from around the ridge. Couldn’t you tell he was just trying to keep it all together. Sam says a great deal without saying anything! And clearly worrying, with the finger tapping!  The tears in his eyes while Claire was having her breakdown. I liked him actually listening to her, it reminded me of 111 where she tells him she’s from the future. Then he had all the right words! ♥️ And as usual Cait deserves an award for that scene. I did not think Jamie was ignoring Claire’s problem, he knew there was one, (she even said she was taking the ether),  but he was waiting for her to come to him about it, instead of badgering her. Ok- maybe he could have kept asking her if something was wrong, but let’s face it, Claire likes to keep it all in, under control, it was really about high time that she was unable to compartmentalize. Jamie knows what it’s like to deal with trauma, he’s been doing it for how long? 30 years? 

Malva’s speech at the beginning! She told the truth, it’s just that it was not about Jamie. Allan grabbing that baby casket from Claire was a great addition, & hopefully a good clue to Nonreaders.

 

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

did not think Jamie was ignoring Claire’s problem, he knew there was one, (she even said she was taking the ether),  but he was waiting for her to come to him about it, instead of badgering her. 

Maybe if Show had indicated in any way that Jamie knew something was going on with Claire. But he didn’t. Stupidass writers had him totally ignorant and unaware.

No one will convince me Jamie knew and was just waiting for Claire to tell him.

[Cdh20]

4 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Maybe if Show had indicated in any way that Jamie knew something was going on with Claire. But he didn’t. Stupidass writers had him totally ignorant and unaware.

No one will convince me Jamie knew and was just waiting for Claire to tell him.

We can agree to disagree! 
 

And I will add that her family could also have been a bit more observant. I do wonder if Covid rules helped the show make some of the choices they did on what to include this season? 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Cdh20

[Noneofyourbusiness]

13 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

THIS guy, after hearing her tell him that she has been taking ether to help her sleep, lets her go downstairs by herself for a cup of tea AGAIN?! WTAF! I don't understand these choices, and I hate them. 

And yes, the Truple is completely skim-worthy.  It added nothing to this.  

She was, but she's also the one that made Claire sick.  Malva counted on Claire dying and was surprised when she didn't.  That's when the whole Baby Daddy plot came about.  

Claire's going down for tea was before her confession, not after, and it only happened once.

Disagree, the throuple is great.

I'm quite sure if you add up their lines, Fergus and Marsali have had many more than Lionel this season. Other than this episode, he tends to say one thing and vanish.

11 hours ago, aemom said:

I realize that, but it's such a big plot hole.

As for Jamie not reacting when Claire is having her breakdown: I actually understand that Jamie didn't have much of a reaction.

I had a similar experience myself, where I just finally had to pour out everything to my husband - and he just sat there and listened without any reaction.  And I needed that.  I didn't need him to react, I just needed him to hear everything that I was saying and by him not reacting, I could tell that he was genuinely listening to everything that I just needed to say.

To me, it showed that Jamie wanted to hear everything from start to finish - that everything that she was saying was important - and that Jamie realized that Claire needed him to be strong - because they couldn't both fall apart at the same time.

I don't think Malva could have known Claire was going to get better until literally the moment she woke up, at which point it was too late to pillow her without it looking suspect.

Yeah, I don't think Jamie's been unemotional at all. His eyes have been all about quiet but heartfelt intensity.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[SassAndSnacks]

16 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I know I'm in trouble when GHScorpiosRule and SassAndSnacks reply to one of my posts.

I think we generally, agree, right?  No?  

16 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I have been upset all season that no one was aware that Claire was dosing herself

Same!  

16 hours ago, cardigirl said:

About the cup o' tea comment, this might explain that exchange. 

Interesting!  I have felt that there was a lot of "tea" talk this season, but I chalked it up to historical fan-service to the Boston Tea Party. In reality, there would have been shortages due to British blockades of Colonial ports during that time.  But, I think you're on to something.  And also, as a fan of tea, I think I need this stuff!

12 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

Unfortunately the addition of this Lizzie plot was ill placed directly after Malva’s murder, so did not really add comic relief.

Agree.  I remember thinking it was outrageous when I read the book and at one point being like "SHE DID WHAT!!"  It didn't feel right here.

10 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

I'm quite sure if you add up their lines, Fergus and Marsali have had many more than Lionel this season.

I was speaking figuratively. I'm just missing them and want them to have more screen time.  

12 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

Jamie’s quiet restraint in the face of accusations from around the ridge. Couldn’t you tell he was just trying to keep it all together. Sam says a great deal without saying anything! And clearly worrying, with the finger tapping!  The tears in his eyes while Claire was having her breakdown.

 

10 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Yeah, I don't think Jamie's been unemotional at all. His eyes have been all about quiet but heartfelt intensity.

Ok ok.  As much as I didn't enjoy this one, I'm willing to go and check it out again.  I do recall Jamie doing some hard swallows, like clearing a lump in his throat, during Claire's breakdown.  

But I still agree with the statement below, too...

12 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Maybe if Show had indicated in any way that Jamie knew something was going on with Claire. But he didn’t. Stupidass writers had him totally ignorant and unaware.

No one will convince me Jamie knew and was just waiting for Claire to tell him.

 

[rxpert14]

19 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

I did too, actually.  

Someone in the Show Only thread gave a great take on Claire's personality type and why this is so much harder for her.  I wont copy it, because I don't want to inadvertently bring them to the Spoiler thread, but basically, Claire is a Type A "doer" and when you are a doer, you're a fixer and if you can't fix something, you take it much harder than you maybe would otherwise.  Anyway, that viewer said it much more eloquently than I just said it, but you get the gist.  

Agree 100%.  It cant be easy to play that person, so I have a great deal of respect for him.  

YES!!!

I just said this to someone else (so if you are reading this again, I'm sorry for being redundant) but Claire's family really bothered me.  She has no support system.  It frustrates me that no one could see or cared to see that she hasn't been ok.  No one bothered to take her aside and ask her a simple "How are you?" 

I'm sure I'm just sensitive to it, but it really bothers me.  No one said a word until she came to them, to Jamie, and even then his initial response to her admission that she was huffing ether was so unemotive.  He had a stronger reaction to Fergus's alcoholism, which I realize was more noticeable, but this is CLAIRE.  This is the woman who, when reunited with her, he told her that the best part of having her there was that he could talk to her and tell her anything.  Don't you think she deserves the same?

This is different from the book, because she didn't act this troubled and adrift in the book, so there would have been no reason for someone to be particularly attuned to her, unless she was having one of her flashbacks. In the show, they made her dependent upon the ether and made her have a greater, more realistic reaction to her trauma. And it's like no one cares.  Claire is abducted, meh. Raped, ok. Is betrayed by a loved one, who cares. Accused of murder, so?  It makes me so sad for her and so angry at everyone for being this unfeeling about it.  I want someone to be mad for her!

Marsali would care.  Marsali would have asked and been raging pissed at everyone for accusing her of this.

Yes, thank you. Maybe it's just me, but I'm seeing a stark change in how Jamie's emotions are portrayed in seasons 5 and 6, and now that I think about it, it really goes back to the latter half of season 3. Maybe the writers, showrunner, directors and/or Sam are trying to show older Jamie as more measured, and less impulsive with his reactions, which is not a bad thing. But... it's not consistent with previous moments of high emotion, like Murtagh's death or the First Wife fight with Claire.

In 512 and these past 2 episodes I've expected utter devastation from Jamie, since these events directly involved Claire. Showing heightened emotion doen't have to be melodramatic with a raised voice or flailing arms or wailing. In 606, it could have been demonstrated by a disheveled appearance from keeping a bedside vigil (more facial stubble, undereye circles from lack of sleep, untied stock or waistcoat, strands of hair escaping its ribbon, etc) but instead he was dressed impeccably with no hair out of place the entire episode. The monotone of his voice in 512 when he was preparing to rescue Claire from the Browns, the discussion with Claire in the barn, and now Claire's breakdown....Jamie seemed so emotionally distant (for lack of a better word). At the end of Claire's breakdown, I just wanted to give the woman a bone-crushing hug and not a hug that looks like I don't want to get my shirt wet from her tears.

 

Many here like the more reserved Jamie and I wish I did, but I just needed more from him.

 

Thanks for this discussion y'all. 

[kwnyc]

On 4/25/2022 at 10:23 AM, SassAndSnacks said:

I strongly suspect that the lack of Bree interactions with other people has little to do Covid protocol and a lot to do with the actress just being completely unable to carry a scene.

I totally agree with this. One of the things that I hold against the actor is that in the buik, Bree is said to stand around six feet tall. She's literally head and shoulders above most of the women around her (and Roger is just a little taller than she is). I'd think that when you saw Jamie and Bree standing next to each other, you'd go Ohhhh...of COURSE, she's his daughter.

[cardigirl]

17 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I know I'm in trouble when GHScorpiosRule and SassAndSnacks reply to one of my posts. 😁

 

 

43 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

I think we generally, agree, right?  No?  

Oh yes! I'm not nearly as thoughtful or complete in my responses to the show as you are though. I appreciate your posts very much! 

About the tea, Claire even says something that was almost a direct quote from the ad on my social media, I think.  Something about a good cup of tea for solves a lot?  I'll have to rewatch the episode to get it. If I hadn't seen the ad before the episode, I probably would have thought nothing of her comment.  ☕

[GHScorpiosRule]

I don't mind a measured Jamie, when he's filled with rage. As he was when they saved Claire, and he looked up at Wee Ian, Roger and Myers and said "Kill them all." There was plenty of emotion coming from Sam through the cold, yoke-hold on his rage and eyes.

Like I said, I don't expect yelling, or arms flailing. But I needed something. And the way Sam was directed, just demonstrated that Jamie was too busy with aught else to know what was going on with his own wife. Aye, Sam is wonderful emoting without speaking. So the shock was there, when Claire finally told him what was going on.

My issue, and I ken I've stated it all season in practically each episode thread, it seems, is Jamie not even sensing something was off. Remember, whatever "it" is between them, it's specific to them, and not something that everyone has, according to Gabaldon, and the way this show has presented them. So damn straight I'm peeved.

Nothing would please me more if Jamie were to kick off every single person off the Ridge who comes for Claire. It's been almost five years, but sure, they're quick to blame Claire for that besom Malva's murder. Someone who's only been there a few months, if that.

 

[SassAndSnacks]

On 4/26/2022 at 10:39 AM, rxpert14 said:

Maybe it's just me, but I'm seeing a stark change in how Jamie's emotions are portrayed in seasons 5 and 6, and now that I think about it, it really goes back to the latter half of season 3.

First, I agree with and appreciate your entire post.  You conveyed what I've been feeling so well, so thanks!  I agree, I feel like it is a striking change and it has to be a choice that was made to show a wiser Jamie.  

On 4/26/2022 at 10:39 AM, rxpert14 said:

But... it's not consistent with previous moments of high emotion, like Murtagh's death or the First Wife fight with Claire.

Yes! Spot on.  Or even him frantically running to light the Fiery Cross in Journeycake.  

On 4/26/2022 at 10:39 AM, rxpert14 said:

In 512 and these past 2 episodes I've expected utter devastation from Jamie, since these events directly involved Claire. Showing heightened emotion doen't have to be melodramatic with a raised voice or flailing arms or wailing. In 606, it could have been demonstrated by a disheveled appearance from keeping a bedside vigil (more facial stubble, undereye circles from lack of sleep, untied stock or waistcoat, strands of hair escaping its ribbon, etc) but instead he was dressed impeccably with no hair out of place the entire episode. The monotone of his voice in 512 when he was preparing to rescue Claire from the Browns, the discussion with Claire in the barn, and now Claire's breakdown....Jamie seemed so emotionally distant (for lack of a better word). At the end of Claire's breakdown, I just wanted to give the woman a bone-crushing hug and not a hug that looks like I don't want to get my shirt wet from her tears.

Yes, YES, and YASSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! Messy Jamie is the best Jamie, both physically and emotionally.  

On 4/26/2022 at 11:14 AM, cardigirl said:

About the tea, Claire even says something that was almost a direct quote from the ad on my social media, I think.

Thank you!  I'm passionate about my OL.  I tend to get overly fiery about things, it's just who I am.  I'm a little bit Claire.  And also, since we typed about tea on Tuesday, every ad on my social media is from the Art of Tea.  Every.  Single.  Ad.

On 4/26/2022 at 1:21 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

And the way Sam was directed, just demonstrated that Jamie was too busy with aught else to know what was going on with his own wife.

Hear hear!

On 4/26/2022 at 1:21 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

It's been almost five years, but sure, they're quick to blame Claire for that besom Malva's murder. Someone who's only been there a few months, if that.

This is a terrible DG plot hole that the show didn't fix.  It was stupid in the Buik, and it is stupid here.  Many of these people owe their lives to Jamie and Claire.  Further, there had to be gossip about Malva running around.  It's not like she was being discreet.  These people have no problem gossiping about Claire, but no one knew anything about Malva's behavior? 

Edited April 28, 2022 by SassAndSnacks

[GHScorpiosRule]

I never do this, but I saw a Tweet that there was going to be an interview with Sam and Cait, I think, Tuesday evening? or maybe last night, and the person said to "drop your questions here" and I did! I asked why was Jamie so beyond CLUELESS with what was going with Claire and her ether dosing? Don't know if it was asked of them or not, but hey, they ASKED!

[jacourt]

I rewatched the scene with Claire telling Jamie about the ether use because of the reaction of others. When  I first watched it I was very moved by how Sam reacted. I saw it as he was taking everything in that Claire was saying and it was tearing him up inside. I saw pain on his face because he wanted to make Claire ok. This wasn’t a situation where being the man of action was needed. I felt his response was so thoughtful and that hug just broke my heart. He just wanted to protect her. 

[WatchrTina]

On 4/24/2022 at 8:12 PM, Haleth said:

Ugh, I am soooooo sick of Claire's hallucinations and self medicating.  We get it, she's traumatized.  Enough.  Geez, the actor who plays Lionel got more lines than Fergus or Marsali this season.  Maybe combined!

Oh AMEN!  

Let me say first that I love this book series.  LOVE it.  But every now and then Diana takes us down a dreary plot line that I just cannot WAIT to be over.  The whole damned, dysfunctional, toxic "Christie Family Saga" is the worst example of that phenomenon.  I can't wait until it is over.

That being said . . . if Jamie and Claire were just happy, healthy, hardworking settlers -- benevolent landlords overseeing a group of trusted and treasured neighbors/tenants -- the book would quickly get boring.  Drama, alas, requires some kind of conflict. So I'll gird my loins and stay tuned through this ugly shit-storm of a plot-line.

Thank goodness we have the serenity and joy of the AMERICAN REVOLUTION to look forward to <insert sarcasm emoji>.

Edited April 30, 2022 by WatchrTina

[Noneofyourbusiness]

13 hours ago, jacourt said:

I rewatched the scene with Claire telling Jamie about the ether use because of the reaction of others. When  I first watched it I was very moved by how Sam reacted. I saw it as he was taking everything in that Claire was saying and it was tearing him up inside. I saw pain on his face because he wanted to make Claire ok. This wasn’t a situation where being the man of action was needed. I felt his response was so thoughtful and that hug just broke my heart. He just wanted to protect her. 

Yes, exactly.

[SassAndSnacks]

11 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Let me say first thatI love this book series.  LOVE it.  But every now and then Diana takes us down a dreary plot line that I just cannot WAIT to be over.  The whole damned, dysfunctional, toxic "Christie Family Saga" is the worst example of that phenomenon.  I can't wait until it is over.

Same, girl.  Same.  

11 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Thank goodness we have the serenity and joy of the AMERICAN REVOLUTION to look forward to

I'm really excited for the Revolution bits in the next two books.  I hope we get to them!  Show me the chaos of the Ticonderoga evacuation.  Let me see Ian go at it with an Abenaki at Monmouth.  Let's do this!

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

I'm really excited for the Revolution bits in the next two books.  I hope we get to them!  Show me the chaos of the Ticonderoga evacuation.  Let me see Ian go at it with an Abenaki at Monmouth.  Let's do this!

I also want tae see Jamie shootin' off arrogant man-boy Willie's hat.

Wot??

[SassAndSnacks]

16 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I also want tae see Jamie shootin' off arrogant man-boy Willie's hat.

We like the same things.

[Cdh20]

21 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

That being said . . . if Jamie and Claire were just happy, healthy, hardworking settlers -- benevolent landlords overseeing a group of trusted and treasured neighbors/tenants -- the book would quickly get boring.  Drama, alas, requires some kind of conflict. So I'll gird my loins and stay tuned through this ugly shit-storm of a plot-line.

Thank goodness we have the serenity and joy of the AMERICAN REVOLUTION to look forward to <insert sarcasm emoji>.

My hubby keeps asking when the war is actually coming, he should be thrilled with next season. I did not really love Echo, far too many battles for me. But I did like both 210, 301, & especially 507 so 🤞🤞. I quite enjoy the personal stories. I cannot wait to meet Grown up William ( unlike many readers I like him a lot). 
 

I certainly do not want Little House on the Prairie so I feel bad for saying I loved this book, which sincerely shit all over Claire. And honestly did not have a lot of Jamie storylines, besides standing by Claire, & rescuing her time & time again. These books are a whole lot of recycling plots after the first  2 & 1/2 books unfortunately. Those first ones had completely fresh take on an adventure time travel  historical romance. It’s how we got hooked. 

 

As to Sam’s portrayal of Jamie - I think he is more BookJamie this season than ever. Did we all forget BookJamie is one to keep his emotions off his face!? I’ve always been so grateful that Sam played him much more expressive than the books do. As a producer when he talks about this season, he talks a lot about Cait, & his younger co-stars’ having a chance to shine so I think he understood the assignment. And He might get a bit more riled up in the finale! 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Cdh20
Added a thought!

[nodorothyparker]

Finally getting around to watching this after putting it off for forever just because this whole section of the book really drags for me. By this point of the story, it's just too much Perils of Pauline melodrama. Mostly what I'm coming away with is the same thing I think about this book, as well as the most recent book: Why on earth does Jamie continue to tolerate all these dour super religious assholes being so openly hostile or at least disrespectful to them all as the landowning family? It really makes him look weak. Sure, I know they need tenants to work the land so he can keep up with taxes and whatever and he is committed to the idea of providing a community of mostly Scottish refugees somewhere to go. but it still feels like there should be a normal pause point where he can say if you can't be decent and helpful to the people who gave you a place to live and the clothes on your backs, the trail back down the mountain is thataway. Best of luck to you.

I had a lot of the same feeling about Jamie's lack of reaction to Claire fessing up about the ether. I mean, she told him the first time and got basically nothing more than a mild "Really?" It was only in the later much more drawn out confession speech that he seemed to have any feeling about it at all. Again, I get that with everything going on in this episode that Jamie's mostly just over it all, but it still feels like there should be some kind of acknowledgement that for a guy who's supposed to be so very in tune with Claire that there's this whole huge thing he didn't pick up on.

Roger needing to go get ordained RIGHT NOW and everybody else suddenly finding errands they just had to do elsewhere right this second is wholly plot dictated so Claire and Jamie will be isolated without any real backup when the Brown posse rolls up. Even if the placement of the story isn't the greatest, I still enjoyed Lizzie's wide-eyed waaay too much information telling of how she and Beardsleys became a throuple.

[Cdh20]

On 4/29/2022 at 3:21 PM, SassAndSnacks said:

I'm really excited for the Revolution bits in the next two books.  I hope we get to them!  Show me the chaos of the Ticonderoga evacuation.  Let me see Ian go at it with an Abenaki at Monmouth.  Let's do this!

Look at you, history girl, all excited about the war battles! I hope the season will be good! 

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 5/30/2022 at 8:04 PM, nodorothyparker said:

Finally getting around to watching this after putting it off for forever just because this whole section of the book really drags for me.

FINALLY!!!! 🤪

On 5/30/2022 at 8:04 PM, nodorothyparker said:

Why on earth does Jamie continue to tolerate all these dour super religious assholes being so openly hostile or at least disrespectful to them all as the landowning family? It really makes him look weak. Sure, I know they need tenants to work the land so he can keep up with taxes and whatever and he is committed to the idea of providing a community of mostly Scottish refugees somewhere to go. but it still feels like there should be a normal pause point where he can say if you can't be decent and helpful to the people who gave you a place to live and the clothes on your backs, the trail back down the mountain is thataway. Best of luck to you.

This is wot I've been saying ever since they set up on Fraser's Ridge. And since I only read the buik, but once, I don't recall if the buik characters were this awful, ungrateful, superstitious lot. Either way, Jamie should have shown them ALL the way off his land. Where is the Jamie from "The Devil's Mark" where he stormed in to defend Claire? Yeah, Yeah, he was over 20 years younger. But him just letting these arseholes insult and threaten Claire, and just stand by and say and do NOTHING? That is NOT my Jamie.

On 5/30/2022 at 8:04 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I had a lot of the same feeling about Jamie's lack of reaction to Claire fessing up about the ether. I mean, she told him the first time and got basically nothing more than a mild "Really?" It was only in the later much more drawn out confession speech that he seemed to have any feeling about it at all. Again, I get that with everything going on in this episode that Jamie's mostly just over it all, but it still feels like there should be some kind of acknowledgement that for a guy who's supposed to be so very in tune with Claire that there's this whole huge thing he didn't pick up on.

Again, this is what I've been saying all season long--how Jamie couldn't see what was going on with Claire-for two people who are and have been shown to be so in tune with each other. A big GIANT fail. And I just have to roll my eyes, when I read that these last two episodes were Sam's favorite. Whatever, dude.

[nodorothyparker]

11 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I don't recall if the buik characters were this awful, ungrateful, superstitious lot.

They are. These are the same people whose kids tossed Henri Christian's basket in the river to see if a dwarf baby could float. They're shitty to Bree because she's nominally Catholic, and there's multiple references to them making devil's horns with their hands behind aprons and coats whenever they see Claire, who they mostly refuse to let treat them or be civil to at all because they're too busy muttering "witch" under their breaths. They also don't get any better in the latest book where Jamie looks like an absolute putz for still failing to follow through in telling them to get the hell out after they again behave badly toward their benefactors.

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

They also don't get any better in the latest book where Jamie looks like an absolute putz for still failing to follow through in telling them to get the hell out after they again behave badly toward their benefactors.

Da Fook?🤬🤬🤬
What has happened to Jamie?!!! I don’t plan on reading the latest buik and will depend on my fellow posters to let me know if the show is deviating from it or not should the show catch up to them.