S09.E02: Sex Work

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Main topic: Sex work

Also: Russian invasion of Ukraine; A Look Back at Notable Moments in History; A Fond Farewell to the Wendy Williams Show

Original air date 2022.02.27

[Annber03]

Oh, my fucking God, that "Moments in history" bit with the Applebee's ad XD. That, combined with John's commentary on that weird clip with the boys talking about wet dreams, had me in tears, I was laughing so hard. 

(Seriously, though, CNN, what the actual hell?)

That was a very welcome bit of levity, though, 'cause man, the clips of Russians being interviewed about their feelings regarding the war in Ukraine were very emotional and heartbreaking. Especially the woman who broke down in tears, and the other one who had someone she loved in Ukraine. I do agree with John's sentiments at the end of that segment, though - it is very heartwarming and moving indeed to see just how unified the world at large is in condemning Putin and his aggressive tactics. And I know how big a risk it is for people in Russian to protest in the streets, too, so much admiration to those who are taking that risk to make their voices heard and add their support to the people of Ukraine.

And it's been great to hear about just how defiant and tough the Ukrainans are in fighting back, too - that woman confronting that soldier. DAMN. Tell 'em! She ain't messing around. Here's to hoping all this effort, all this unity, all this fighting back, leads to a good outcome for everyone, and puts an end to Putin's horrific actions. And I hope everyone being directly impacted by the war is staying safe/able to get out if possible/what have you, too. My thoughts are with them. 

As for the main story, I'd always found it weird how the prostitutes would often get arrested and not the clients, but I appreciated John explaining the issues with doing the reverse, along with some of the issues involved in going the legalization route. I hadn't really considered the potential flaws in those options, so I appreciate getting another perspective and argument on that. I really like how New Zealand is responding to this issue, and if that's the best way to go, I'm all for implementing something like that. I agree, though, that whatever option states or countries choose to go with, they need to talk with sex workers themselves and let them have input. That should be a basic "no duh" suggestion for any laws being made, no matter what they're for. 

"In the transgender community, not carrying condoms is a death sentence." 

And frankly, I sense, for some of the people who make those stupid "no carrying condoms" laws, that's exactly what they want. Easy to not worry about dealing with the issue if the people affected are dead, after all. 

I seriously half expected John to reveal that that one politician laughing at the idea of "hookers", as he called them, meeting with lobbyists was caught up in a sex scandal of his own. Truly would not be surprised if that turned out to be the case someday, though, knowing how history tends to go with people who have that kind of attitude on these issues. 

Ending on a lighter note again, nice nod to our newest Supreme Court nominee in the opening credits :). 

[ahisma]

I’ve heard the story several times of the Ukrainian defenders on the island telling the Russian warship to go f—- itself. The sunflower seed lady was new to me, but, damn, she obliterated that soldier! 

The police arguing that they should be able to continue having sex with the sex workers they’re entrapping is one of the most horrifying things I’ve ever heard. 

Farewell, Wendy Williams. I wish her health.

[JustHereForFood]

Fuck this! I have expected to finally have some serious coverage of the Ukraine crisis after being disappointed by Colbert on Friday and really expected John to do better, but if this does not deserve a full segment, I don't think I will bother with John Oliver again. I am deeply saddened by that, because I really expected better from him.

 

edit: I did not bother to watch the "main" segment, so I have no comments on that. My time is better spent continuing to follow news about our Ukranian neigbors' courage in their fighting almost non-stop as I have done all weekend. but US, go ahead in caring about some BS instead.

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by JustHereForFood

[Ailianna]

John really should have updated his segment to note that New York repealed the loitering for purposes of prostitution law. 

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://decriminalizesex.work/why-decriminalization/briefing-papers/loitering-for-the-purpose-of-prostitution-lpp/&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiW_viOtqL2AhXMJjQIHfgKAVYQFXoECAUQAg&usg=AOvVaw3E_P-wSyAiB4Ns5hDOpt3z

[iMonrey]

Quote

Fuck this! I have expected to finally have some serious coverage of the Ukraine crisis after being disappointed by Colbert on Friday and really expected John to do better, but if this does not deserve a full segment, I don't think I will bother with John Oliver again.

I feel you. I really feel like the Ukraine story should have been the whole show. I get they have a formula here and that they probably were working on the sex worker story a long time, but we're talking about an historic event right now, and they had plenty of time to prepare it these last few days. The sex worker story could have waited.

Quote

The police arguing that they should be able to continue having sex with the sex workers they’re entrapping is one of the most horrifying things I’ve ever heard. 

But not surprising. Many years ago I saw a prostitution sting on Cops. One officer posed as a customer in a hotel room while two other cops sat behind a two-way mirror and watched. And watched. And watched. They let the two prostitutes put on a little show for them before busting in to arrest them. It was unbelievably lurid and atrocious.

[swanpride]

Well, I guess the show is more for covering things which don't get enough coverage, plus, things are moving that fast currently, it is actually pretty hard to make a good assessment. I mean, John Oliver saying that Putin priced the reaction in - I am actually not sure about this. Yes, Putin certainly had a plan and yes, he expected backlash, but I don't think that he expected THAT kind of backlash. I guess he was betting on a weak reaction from Europe, because Germany has a new government (which involves the SPD, which is closer to Russia than a lot of people feel comfortable with), France will have an election soon, and Great Britain has spend the last years being in constant conflict with the EU. But not only is the EU extremely united, even without Merkel at its helm, all the other European countries have joined in, too. Even Switzerland has now joined the sanctions...we are talking "Nazi Gold is Great" Switzerland which always emphasises how "neutral" they are. Nor do I think that he expected the German government after ages of hesitating to suspend Nord Stream 2 pretty much immediately, or the suspension of Swift, or that the other states would basically seize the Russian state money (a lot of which is apparently in Frankfurt), or that Germany would suddenly change a long standing policy and deliver weapons to the Ukraine while also raising their own military budget (temporarily). And then there is the attack itself, which was supposed to be some sort of Blitzkrieg with some nice Propaganda attack on the side, but neither really works out either, considering that Kiew ist still standing, Zelenski stayed in the city thus boosting morale and various videos showing how senseless this war is. Aside from the women with the sunflowers, there is also the guy who offered some soldiers whose tanks run out of gas to tow them back to Russia, there is the picture with the bleeding woman, and of children sitting in a subway station. 

Anyway, considering all this, it might be better to asses the situation one or two weeks down the line, when it is easier to see which sanctions had which effect and how the war is actually going...and if Belarus gets involved too, and what China decides to do.

About the main segment: Coming from a country where Sex Work is legalised (and taxed), it's not perfect by any means, but I still prefer it over the alternative to criminalise sex workers. It is the oldest business in the world after all. And I can't emphasise enough how idiotic it is to criminalize condoms of all things. Not that I am surprised, it's sooo American to do that. 

Oh and the applebee thing...frankly, I think the drew out the joke too much. But then, I find this a somewhat harmless blunder considering that we once a radio channel following the assassination attempt on the pope with the song "Im Leben, im Leben geht so mancher Schuss daneben" (In live, in live, some shots are a miss) and another time the news about the big Tsunami was followed up with "Das ist die perfekte Welle" (This is the perfect wave). (Though why you would put advertising in the end of a news program is a mystery to me anyway). 

 

[Annber03]

3 hours ago, swanpride said:

Anyway, considering all this, it might be better to asses the situation one or two weeks down the line, when it is easier to see which sanctions had which effect and how the war is actually going...and if Belarus gets involved too, and what China decides to do.

This. It's a fast moving, ever-changing situation that's still unfolding, and while, yes, the show's had some time to prepare to discuss what's happened, I think they tape on Saturdays, so they would've only had a couple days' worth of fighting thus far to try and discuss and analyze. I definitely think there will be an episode devoted completely to this conflict at some point, but it may take a while before that happens, because of all mentioned in the above quote. 

[peeayebee]

14 hours ago, ahisma said:

Farewell, Wendy Williams. I wish her health.

I just googled her because I thought the segment on her was simply because her show was cancelled.

I thought the segment on Ukraine was pretty long for a secondary segment. Things are moving so fast that for the show to devote its top story to it would be a misstep imo because new developments would require constantly updating their original story. Anyway, I was pleased with what they did. For instance, I didn't know that Putin had been setting things up for years in anticipation of economic sanctions.

The sex workers story was interesting. One question I have is what the difference is betw decriminalization and legalization.

[ahisma]

23 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I just googled her because I thought the segment on her was simply because her show was cancelled.

Yeah, I heard on NPR that she was stepping back from her show because she’s been dealing with Graves’ disease and it’s become too much. 
 

24 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

One question I have is what the difference is betw decriminalization and legalization.

Decriminalization means that they take away the laws already on the books making it illegal to engage in sex work. So you could just… go solicit and do your thing, and no one can arrest you for it.
 

Legalization means it’s legal to do but there are new laws around it. Like, “it’s legal if you work in a licensed brothel” with the attendant licensing system set up. Or, “it’s legal if you keep a current STD check card with you that you’ve been examined in the past three months.” Etc. Sometimes the legalization mechanism is extremely overbearing, like in the first example where the Nevada brothels take 50% of the earnings off the top.

[Victor the Crab]

Yeah, they should have focused the entire show on Ukraine. They devoted an entire show on Bret Kavanaugh's SCOTUS confirmation hearing, for fuck sakes, so Ukraine should have been a no brainer! Step up your game, Ollie. You're fucking better than that!😠

[swanpride]

I guess there are different levels of decriminalisation/legalisation. Like, you can say that being a sex worker is legal, but engaging with one isn't. That way it isn't exactly legal, but the sex workers don't have to fear prison. Or you can go all the way and say that sex work is just a legal business with regulations for those who work there and those who visit the establishments, and just criminalise sex trafficking. The risk you run if you do that is that sex trafficker hide behind legal businesses. I mean there are a lot of ways to pressure women into sex work. And it wouldn't exactly remove the street workers either. 

[Annber03]

43 minutes ago, Victor the Crab said:

They devoted an entire show on Bret Kavanaugh's SCOTUS confirmation hearing, for fuck sakes

That's a little different, though. We knew the nomination process would only last so long and that they'd make a definitive decision one way or another by a certain time. It's a lot easier to focus an entire episode on discussing and analyzing something that had an official end date and a guaranteed outcome (and, in that particular case, a rather foregone outcome at that).

The war in Ukraine, however, we truly have no idea when it will end, or how, or what it will mean for the future of that region, or anyone else. So it's hard to properly cover something like that for a full episode (especially since, again, at the time of their taping, the war had only been going for a couple days thus far), and try and make any kind of guess or proper analysis of where things will go next. 

[IvySpice]

Quote

Sometimes the legalization mechanism is extremely overbearing, like in the first example where the Nevada brothels take 50% of the earnings off the top.

I thought John's criticism of that rate was kind of ridiculous. Let's think about environments where a service worker conducts business within a larger operation that provides space, security, advertising, receptionist, etc. In which of those businesses does the worker NOT pay 50%? Ask your hairstylist or massage therapist what percentage of the retail price goes into her pocket. I think it's quite rare that the worker is keeping 50% of the fee. They usually get way less.

[swanpride]

...That doesn't exactly make it better. 50% of the earning is well too much for anyone. 

[wknt3]

On 2/28/2022 at 4:53 PM, Victor the Crab said:

Yeah, they should have focused the entire show on Ukraine. They devoted an entire show on Bret Kavanaugh's SCOTUS confirmation hearing, for fuck sakes, so Ukraine should have been a no brainer! Step up your game, Ollie. You're fucking better than that!😠

 

On 2/28/2022 at 5:43 PM, Annber03 said:

That's a little different, though. We knew the nomination process would only last so long and that they'd make a definitive decision one way or another by a certain time. It's a lot easier to focus an entire episode on discussing and analyzing something that had an official end date and a guaranteed outcome (and, in that particular case, a rather foregone outcome at that).

The war in Ukraine, however, we truly have no idea when it will end, or how, or what it will mean for the future of that region, or anyone else. So it's hard to properly cover something like that for a full episode (especially since, again, at the time of their taping, the war had only been going for a couple days thus far), and try and make any kind of guess or proper analysis of where things will go next. 

Plus with the hearing there was a pause on weekends and we knew the contours of events in general. Here we don't have that clarity, which is why John took the very rare (unprecedented?) step of mentioning when they were taping and that things could change by the time we were watching. I think it was perfectly reasonable to focus on those parts of the story that were in their wheelhouse and were not going to be completely eclipsed or irrelevant in a manner of days or hours. Putin is a larger and more complicated personality than Kavanaugh and Kavenaugh did not have ICBMs (unless that is a craft beer somewhere). The show is in the end, NOT a news show and there will be times they have to choose their topics for reasons other than their importance to the world.

Edited March 1, 2022 by wknt3
fix typos

[ebk57]

4 hours ago, wknt3 said:

The show is in the end, NOT a news show and there will be times they have to choose their topics for reasons other than their importance to the world.

This!  Thank you for this.  John does a great job with the news, but in reality, this is a comedy/talk/variety show (just ask the Emmys), so whatever issues he does bring to the general public that they didn't know about before is a bonus. 

[swanpride]

Also, if he covers Ukraine, it will be most likely from an angle. Not a general "that is happening" and more a "okay, this is the media narrative, and here is what you maybe missed so far". I don't think that there is currently much to miss in regard to the Ukraine. If anything, he did the important segment years ago, when he covered what kind of person Putin actually is. There is little to add to that, especially now that Putin's narrative is basically blown away by the excellent work the Ukrainian government does to keep the eyes of the world on the issue at hand. 

I would prefer a long segment about the Ukraine when there actually is some BS to cut through. 

[JustHereForFood]

He didn't have to focus an entire segment on the war itself, since as was mentioned, things are moving fast, but he could have had a segment about how we got there, I expected that last week (the CRT topic could have waited as well, IMO). There's more than enough material. There is going to be a LOT of confusion around, as everyone now wants to be an expert and there are still trolls on the internet confusing people, so some researched segment could have made some things clearer for a lot of people. I don't know how their team works, but I would have expected that they have a lot of topics prepared in advance, so it wouldn't be done all now. Things have been escalating for months, even if no one expected it would get this far, so I thought they are working on it.

[Hanahope]

16 hours ago, IvySpice said:

I thought John's criticism of that rate was kind of ridiculous. Let's think about environments where a service worker conducts business within a larger operation that provides space, security, advertising, receptionist, etc. In which of those businesses does the worker NOT pay 50%? Ask your hairstylist or massage therapist what percentage of the retail price goes into her pocket. I think it's quite rare that the worker is keeping 50% of the fee. They usually get way less.

I was also curious if the brothel provides health insurance or other benefits.  it is true that there are plenty of businesses that charge X dollars per hour for an employee's work and yet that employee's salary, when converted to an hourly wage, is much less than that X dollar (and sometimes 50%).  for example even in the law practice, a firm may charge an associate's billable hour to the client at $200 per hour, but the employee may only get a salary of $150,000. if that associate works 2000 hours a year, they get  $75 per hour, less than half that charged to the client.  of course, when you add in benefits, the associate is getting more.

[Ceindreadh]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

I was also curious if the brothel provides health insurance or other benefits.  it is true that there are plenty of businesses that charge X dollars per hour for an employee's work and yet that employee's salary, when converted to an hourly wage, is much less than that X dollar (and sometimes 50%).  for example even in the law practice, a firm may charge an associate's billable hour to the client at $200 per hour, but the employee may only get a salary of $150,000. if that associate works 2000 hours a year, they get  $75 per hour, less than half that charged to the client.  of course, when you add in benefits, the associate is getting more.

Didn't John say that the sex workers in the brothel had to be treated as 'independent contractors' rather than employees?   In that event, I presume they'd be responsible for their own health insurance. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

I thought the segment on Ukraine was pretty long for a secondary segment. Things are moving so fast that for the show to devote its top story to it would be a misstep imo because new developments would require constantly updating their original story.

As noted above, John has spent entire episodes on one topic before, especially when they are as timely as this. While the situation is certainly still in flux, there was plenty of material to cover nonetheless. I'm not convinced he should have waited to see things how play out. God willing he still has that chance. We're talking about an historic event here after all, not something that warrants a wait-and-see attitude. 

I usually record the show and watch it later but when I saw the recording light I switched over immediately because I wanted to hear what John had to say about Ukraine. Not what he had to say about sex workers.

[Hanahope]

3 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

Didn't John say that the sex workers in the brothel had to be treated as 'independent contractors' rather than employees?   In that event, I presume they'd be responsible for their own health insurance. 

that's a good point.  though the brothel pretty much supplies certain "tools of the trade" such as the bed (unless they make the worker buy it).  I don't know about current times, but certainly in the past, the workers lived at the brothel and presumably ate there most of the time too, so that may be a further cost the workers incur, depending on whether its "included" or if the workers have to pay rent.

[Lantern7]

Good episode. I'm okay that John hasn't covered the crisis in Ukraine in full yet. I don't think John is minimizing what's been going on there. I'm good with with the "coverage" we got this week, topped by the grandmother giving sunflower seeds to a Russian solider, hoping that something will grow after he dies. That was some hardcore shit.

The coverage on sex work was pretty thorough . . .no patronizing snark from John, unlike some news anchors and that one state official in New York. Yes, it's a topic that's both uncomfortable and easy to ridicule, but John did a great job. Also: Clown Cop. Even for back then, that was wrong.

I feel bad for Applebee's, in the sense that commercial really wasn't meant to be played after the announcement of an invasion. And it only got more mortifying with the one guy shaking his ass.

[Annber03]

30 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

I'm good with with the "coverage" we got this week, topped by the grandmother giving sunflower seeds to a Russian solider, hoping that something will grow after he dies. That was some hardcore shit.

Seriously, Ukrainians are a tough bunch. I wouldn't want to get on their bad side, they don't mess around. 

[Rlb8031]

On 2/28/2022 at 5:38 AM, JustHereForFood said:

Fuck this! I have expected to finally have some serious coverage of the Ukraine crisis after being disappointed by Colbert on Friday and really expected John to do better, but if this does not deserve a full segment, I don't think I will bother with John Oliver again. I am deeply saddened by that, because I really expected better from him.

 

edit: I did not bother to watch the "main" segment, so I have no comments on that. My time is better spent continuing to follow news about our Ukranian neigbors' courage in their fighting almost non-stop as I have done all weekend. but US, go ahead in caring about some BS instead.

 

But that's not how John's show works. The "main" long form segments take months to research, vet and clear. Those segments tend to be "evergreen" topics in that they can be bumped or moved around and still be relevant. I'm not surprised that he didn't do thirty minutes on the Ukraine with a six or seven day run up to the story. My guess is that you may see a long form piece later this season. 

[Victor the Crab]

2 hours ago, Rlb8031 said:

But that's not how John's show works. The "main" long form segments take months to research, vet and clear. Those segments tend to be "evergreen" topics in that they can be bumped or moved around and still be relevant. I'm not surprised that he didn't do thirty minutes on the Ukraine with a six or seven day run up to the story. My guess is that you may see a long form piece later this season. 

John did manage once to rush through an entire piece they did months on concerning air travel, that was humanly fast forward because of an important story that happened that week that took up most of the show. And this was just before the summer travel season was about to get under way. But they must have figured it was not that important by the way they handled it.

Just like they felt it was not that important for them to do an entire show on Ukraine which they should have!

[JustHereForFood]

23 hours ago, Rlb8031 said:

But that's not how John's show works. The "main" long form segments take months to research, vet and clear. Those segments tend to be "evergreen" topics in that they can be bumped or moved around and still be relevant. I'm not surprised that he didn't do thirty minutes on the Ukraine with a six or seven day run up to the story. My guess is that you may see a long form piece later this season. 

I take it you did not watch the entire line of Coronavirus videos in 2020.

[netlyon2]

On 3/6/2022 at 1:25 AM, Lantern7 said:

The coverage on sex work was pretty thorough . . .no patronizing snark from John, unlike some news anchors and that one state official in New York. Yes, it's a topic that's both uncomfortable and easy to ridicule, but John did a great job. Also: Clown Cop. Even for back then, that was wrong.

Have to post my agreement with this. I think it's pretty rare to see this topic covered at all, let alone treated seriously and respectfully. I also think the negative reactions to the show following its long-established format wouldn't be quite as . . . strong . . . had the planned topic been a different one. Just a hunch I have.

[angora]

I imagine that the show's coverage of Ukraine may be similar to how they handled "Stupid Watergate." While the investigation/hearings/impeachment was ongoing, it was frequently the focus of the recap of the week, sometimes the only story in that segment, and a few main stories were devoted to specific aspects of it. Coverage of Ukraine could go much the same way, a weekly "here's the latest" with occasional deeper dives.

[marina to]

On 3/10/2022 at 6:07 PM, netlyon2 said:

Have to post my agreement with this. I think it's pretty rare to see this topic covered at all, let alone treated seriously and respectfully. I also think the negative reactions to the show following its long-established format wouldn't be quite as . . . strong . . . had the planned topic been a different one. Just a hunch I have.

This. I have friends who are sex workers and I'm thrilled that this got the coverage it deserve. Quite frankly, their stories are always put on the back burner and I am so happy that they didn't do that here. You can get the Ukraine situation everywhere. 

Just wish that being in Canada I didn't have to wait weeks to watch it.

Edited March 21, 2022 by marina to