Figure Skating

[absnow54]

Yes! I hope Sakamoto can hold onto her podium position. It'll come down to how many quads Trusova lands...

[Hana Chan]

There is zero justification for these scores. None whatsoever. Everyone else is blatently underscored, and the PCS for all the Russian girls are far outside the realm of believability. None of them deserve to be in the top group, but here we are.

If this doesn't bring an outcry to revise the scoring system to prevent this kind of blatant abuse (like we had after the Salt Lake City fiasco) then any legitimacy this sport has is dead.

[Lady Whistleup]

Karen and Mariah had horrible skates. Talk about not seizing the moment.

Also, I hate to say it, but Kamila's skating skills are so far ahead of Trusova's and Anna's. She is a better skater, grandpa's heart medicaiton or no.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Lady Whistleup

[absnow54]

Just now, Lady Whistleup said:

Karen and Mariah had horrible skates. Talk about not seizing the moment.

I think Mariah can still sneak into the Top 10, but she'll probably play it safe and drop her triple-triple combo.

[galaxygirl76]

At least the danger of an all Russian podium seem less now because I can see these assholes demand a medal ceremony if they sweep.

[Lady Whistleup]

4 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

I think Mariah can still sneak into the Top 10, but she'll probably play it safe and drop her triple-triple combo.

This is what I dislike about Mariah's skating. Karen always keeps fighting in the LP, even though she's not a strong jumper. But I've noticed that once Mariah splats once, she tends to just double her LP.

Also, I really am sort of discouraged by the state of US ladies' figure skating. Like, our ladies our way behind the Japanese ladies, the Korean ladies ... It's disappointing. The days of Michelle vs. Tara are over. It's like now the fight is for one US lady to make the final skating group.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Lady Whistleup

[Minneapple]

Nobody learned anything after Salt Lake,. For fuck's sake. Even gymnastics has mostly cleaned up its scoring issues. As if the doping scandal wasn't bad enough.

[Lady Whistleup]

1 minute ago, Minneapple said:

Nobody learned anything after Salt Lake,. For fuck's sake. Even gymnastics has mostly cleaned up its scoring issues. As if the doping scandal wasn't bad enough.

It's not really that no one learned anything. it's that judges now know how to manipulate the system just as well as they used to with the 6.0. They can add or not add GOE or PCS to get the result they wanted.

And it's not just international meets. Nationals was full of this sort of manipulation -- they already decided that the team was going to be Nathan/Jason/Vincent so Vincent stayed in third place despite a horrendous free skate.

[Hana Chan]

This is always going to be issues with scoring since with the artistic element, figure skating is always going to be to a degree subjective. I've been arguing for years that while I often agreed with Nathan Chen winning his events that his PCs were pretty inflated compared to other skaters, but I have never seen such a divorce between the performance on the ice and the scores. Yes, Eteri's young girls always have inflated scores (which come back into some sense of reality once a new Eteri girl arrives on the scene) but this was ridiculous. 

And this is the kind of thing that critics of the sport point to when they want to argue that it's not a real sport. It's very disheartening for fans like us who follow it. Short of Kamila and Sasha biffing every single element in their FS, I don't see any scenario where they don't take the top spots on the podium. It's sad and it's gross and I'm so angry for the other young women who put in so much effort just to be thrown aside because they're not Russian and trained by the ISU darling, Eteri.

[ShellsandCheese]

I skipped the Russians but I thought overall this was a pretty good short program; Kaori was amazing! It’s unfortunate that the US Ladies seem to be falling further behind Japan and S. Korea; at this point it seems that it will be someone from one of those nations who will breakthrough and break up the Russian stranglehold. Also, really enjoyed Loena and Wakaba. Here’s hoping Kaori medals, preferably gold.

[Lady Whistleup]

1 minute ago, Hana Chan said:

This is always going to be issues with scoring since with the artistic element, figure skating is always going to be to a degree subjective. I've been arguing for years that while I often agreed with Nathan Chen winning his events that his PCs were pretty inflated compared to other skaters, but I have never seen such a divorce between the performance on the ice and the scores.

Patrick Chan of the "I always fall in every LP but I've won three WC's" has entered the chat ...

[ShellsandCheese]

Just now, Lady Whistleup said:

Patrick Chan of the "I always fall in every LP but I've won three WC's" has entered the chat ...

Yeah, I don’t understand why everyone thought a new scoring system would change things; the problem was never about the scoring system - it’s about the people doing the scoring and how scoring was done. I’ve never liked the new system (ditto Gymnastics). 

[Minneapple]

5 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

It's not really that no one learned anything. it's that judges now know how to manipulate the system just as well as they used to with the 6.0. They can add or not add GOE or PCS to get the result they wanted.

I mean no one has learned anything about making the sport more legit or credible. The people in charge don't care and the judges don't care. They'll manipulate the results to get the one they want and fuck everything else.

Just now, Hana Chan said:

This is always going to be issues with scoring since with the artistic element, figure skating is always going to be to a degree subjective. I

That was an issue with gymnastics too, but they changed the scoring system to almost zero out the artistic elements. Jade Carey won a gold medal on floor exercise at the last Olympics with the least artistic routine I've ever seen, but it was completely legitimate because her execution and her technical elements were better than anyone else's. And yeah, that's actual execution, with no underrotations or anything silly like that. (There's still the Simone issue, but she's such an outlier and I feel like nobody even knows what to do with her since her skills are far beyond anyone else's; still, her beam routine "only" won silver in Tokyo and it was a fair score. No judging controversy.) In the end I think it's mostly the people who run the sport that are the issue here. They really wanted to clean up gymnastics scoring. Figure skating, not so much.

[NUguy514]

3 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

(There's still the Simone issue, but she's such an outlier and I feel like nobody even knows what to do with her since her skills are far beyond anyone else's; still, her beam routine "only" won silver in Tokyo and it was a fair score. No judging controversy.) In the end I think it's mostly the people who run the sport that are the issue here. They really wanted to clean up gymnastics scoring. Figure skating, not so much.

Simone won bronze on beam, but your point is well-taken.

[Lady Whistleup]

4 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

That was an issue with gymnastics too, but they changed the scoring system to almost zero out the artistic elements. Jade Carey won a gold medal on floor exercise at the last Olympics with the least artistic routine I've ever seen, but it was completely legitimate because her execution and her technical elements were better than anyone else's. And yeah, that's actual execution, with no underrotations or anything silly like that. (There's still the Simone issue, but she's such an outlier and I feel like nobody even knows what to do with her since her skills are far beyond anyone else's; still, her beam routine "only" won silver in Tokyo and it was a fair score. No judging controversy.) In the end I think it's mostly the people who run the sport that are the issue here. They really wanted to clean up gymnastics scoring. Figure skating, not so much.

Gymnastics judging has its own issues though. One of them is how much certain gymnasts get hammered on form while other gymnasts get a pass. I mean, I think Simone is absolutely awesome but towards the end of her career she was getting a lot of execution gifts despite increasingly sloppy landings. Another gymnast with a lot of form breaks who got away with it is Nastia Liukin.

That's not to mention the universally abusive tactics of  gymnastics coaches. I mean, there have been severe sexual and physical abuse scandals in several big gymnastics countries.

[Hana Chan]

1 minute ago, Minneapple said:

In the end I think it's mostly the people who run the sport that are the issue here.

Bingo! It's frustrating because it's usually obvious when TPTB want a specific skater to win because the magic PCs show up to inflate their scores. As I said earlier, I had no issue with a lot of Nathan's wins over the past few years because he is a very good, technically proficient skater. But with the USFed and even ISU wanting him to get this big redemption from the last games, his PCs were clearly boosted more often than not. He clearly deserved his gold medal, but the margins were IMO a bit sus.

It's been noted before how often Eteri's girls see their scores markedly drop, not because they're not skating as well as they'd done in the past, but just because there's a new 15 year old from her stable who made the jump to seniors and excite the judges. It's less about actual performance on the ice and more about promoting the newest star.

[Lady Whistleup]

I always cringe when Nathan scores +4 GOE on his spin sequences. He's not a strong spinner and he'd probably be the first to admit that. His +4 GOE's are weird when you compare his spins to say, Jason Brown or Yuzuru Hanyu.

Another thing is Nathan is a toe jumper. He is not a strong edge jumper. But he gets +4 and +5 GOE's for his rather unimpressive triple axel.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Lady Whistleup

[Hana Chan]

11 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I always cringe when Nathan scores +4 GOE on his spin sequences. He's not a strong spinner and he'd probably be the first to admit that. His +4 GOE's are weird when you compare his spins to say, Jason Brown or Yuzuru Hanyu.

Another thing is Nathan is a toe jumper. He is not a strong edge jumper. But he gets +4 and +5 GOE's for his rather unimpressive triple axel.

Thank you! I'm glad that I'm not the only one who noticed this. Again, it's not that I don't think that he doesn't deserve to win often (which he does strictly on the technical difficulty of his programs) but his execution is pretty wonky on some elements and artistically... I find his artistical elements pretty bland.

He's a much more straightforward kind of skater than Jason, Yuzuru or Yuma and I'm curious to see how his dominance over the past quad would have played out if the US media and skating fed weren't so determined that he would have this remarkable "redemption" since he clearly should have won the OGM the last time around (since Yuzu was still injured) and would have if he hadn't spent his SP polishing the ice with his backside.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Hana Chan

[HartofDixie]

Vincent out of isolation! He’s on today’s Olympic Ice show.

[Lady Whistleup]

1 minute ago, Hana Chan said:

Thank you! I'm glad that I'm not the only one who noticed this. Again, it's not that I don't think that he doesn't deserve to win often (which he does strictly on the technical difficulty of his programs) but his execution is pretty wonky on some elements and artistically... I find his artistical elements pretty bland.

He's a much more straightforward kind of skater than Jason, Yuzuru or Yuma and I'm curious to see how his dominance over the past quad would have played out if the US media and skating fed weren't so determined that he would have this remarkable "redemption" since he clearly should have won the OGM the last time around (since Yuzu was still injured) and would have if he hadn't spent this SP polishing the ice with his backside.

I kind of think the skating world decided they needed a role model. And Nathan fit the bill. He is nice, uncontroversial, and his jumping passes get a lot of play on highlight reels.

But ... his edge jumps (loops, salchows, axels) are not as strong as his toe jumps, his interpretation of music pretty basic (a lot of arm-waving), and he also has the Russian habit of pre-rotating his jumps with that curved entrance. It makes sense since he's only had Russian coaches. But if fans are going to ding the Russians for pre-rotating Nathan does the exact same thing.

It's not to say Nathan doesn't deserve to win. He does. Just that he definitely gets a lot of Chen-flation.

[choclatechip45]

At least Gymnastics scoring is something you can understand. I can never understand the scoring in skating especially in singles. 

I do find it interesting the revamp in scoring helped USA Women's Gymnastics while it hurt the Men while skating it was the opposite. 

 

[Hana Chan]

Just now, Lady Whistleup said:

I kind of think the skating world decided they needed a role model. And Nathan fit the bill. He is nice, uncontroversial, and his jumping passes get a lot of play on highlight reels.

It also, IMO, has to do with how the US media promoted him as "The Quad King" in the run up to Pyeongchang and then watching him totally flub his SP. They trumpeted his "redemptive" FS (which basically was just him whizzing around the rink, throwing quads without any real program just to get the BV as elevated as possible). It's a good think that I follow other media channels who also noted that Yuzuru had a remarkable showing as he was coming off of what could have been a career ending injury and still managed to give a WR scoring SP.

[Hana Chan]

Ouch - The Daily Beast is pulling no punches: "Weeping Russian Drug Cheat Skates Straight Into Gold Medal Position"

https://www.thedailybeast.com/russian-figure-skater-kamila-valieva-in-gold-medal-spot-after-womens-short-program?ref=home

[anniebird]

I don't understand that whole tights-over-skates look - the Bulgarian skater looks as if her legs are eating her skates.

[Lady Whistleup]

Another thing I wish judges would stop doing is the national point inflation. Scores are always much more inflated at nationals. This sometimes gives people a false sense of security. An example is Jordyn Wieber. Her national scores were so inflated for combos that when she didn't get credit for them internationally she was shocked. They also don't call some of Karen Chen's or Alysa Liu's under-rotations at nationals.

[absnow54]

3 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Another thing I wish judges would stop doing is the national point inflation. Scores are always much more inflated at nationals.

Ha! Whenever I check skaters past scores to compare them with other skaters, I always skip over their nationals scores, because those don't count. 

[choclatechip45]

4 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Another thing I wish judges would stop doing is the national point inflation. Scores are always much more inflated at nationals. This sometimes gives people a false sense of security. An example is Jordyn Wieber. Her national scores were so inflated for combos that when she didn't get credit for them internationally she was shocked. They also don't call some of Karen Chen's or Alysa Liu's under-rotations at nationals.

Wieber incident is even worse because Martha would famously have her own judge next to her and Jordyn has said she was told at camp by Martha to keep the connections in. Alicia Sacramone also showed up once to Worlds without a requirement. 

[Jess14]

I’ve always been more of a gymnastics fan than a skating fan, but while I’ve soured some on both sports (Yuna Kim losing gold in 2014 disgusted me, and gymnastics has just lost all artistry), I still feel that gymnastics results are usually correct in the end, and I find the scoring system to be much easier to follow. With skating, I feel like it’s ridiculously complicated, and often times, it seems like the results are pre-decided. Given the comments that I’m seeing about the short program results, combined with the Russian cheating, this Olympics may be when I give up on figure skating all together.

[Minneapple]

Does anyone else think maybe Johnny feels personally betrayed by the Russians and blindsided by the doping? He's propped them up for years, always gushes over their skaters and says nice things about them despite the sketchy and abusive training methods. His comments today made it seem like he was holding back and trying not to say something awful. He and Tara hardly said anything during Kamila's skate, and at the end Johnny was all, "Well, that was a short program by Kamila Valieva and that's all I'll say about that."

[Maelstrom]

17 hours ago, SophiaD said:

I have to say, I am really disinterested in the women's competition now.  I've been wondering about this for years - why this one coach magically has young woman after young woman who can do quads, but no one else can?  I thought I was just being a jerk for suspecting cheating.  Guess I wasn't.

Yeah, same here. I charitably thought it was just a matter of gaming the scoring system and not caring what happens to those young women's bodies after they're discarded for the latest models. Eteri and her quad princess factory - and the endless praise and adoration they garnered both online and from commentators - drove me away from watching women's skating for many years. It's only been in the last year or two that I've come back, primarily for the outstanding talents of the Japanese skaters.

And now after this debacle I feel like, Fuck it. Why bother? Clearly they're not even going to bother pretending this competition isn't a joke anymore. It's criminally unfair to all of the other skaters there who haven't cheated. Think I'll just track down vids online of the Japanese skaters, maybe Karen and Mariah, and wash my hands of this blatantly rigged competition. Save myself some time and delete a big ol' block of time from my DVR.

ETA - just watched Kaori and wow, that was fantastic! She's such a beautiful skater. THIS is what figure skating should be all about!

Edited February 15, 2022 by Maelstrom

[choclatechip45]

23 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Does anyone else think maybe Johnny feels personally betrayed by the Russians and blindsided by the doping? He's propped them up for years, always gushes over their skaters and says nice things about them despite the sketchy and abusive training methods. His comments today made it seem like he was holding back and trying not to say something awful. He and Tara hardly said anything during Kamila's skate, and at the end Johnny was all, "Well, that was a short program by Kamila Valieva and that's all I'll say about that."

I think so. He's been obsessed with all things USSR/Russia his whole entire life and now they finally did something he can't defend. I think I read somewhere he's been obsessed since he was a 5 years old that is a long time!

[Jeddah]

4 hours ago, ChitChat said:

In all of the years I've watched ice skating, I've always seen the other skaters waiting in the backstage area.  I've never seen any of them out there cheering for the other skaters.  They're busy getting ready for their turn or winding down from a performance.

 It's a nice thought that they should cheer each other on, but it's a competition, and its game on when you're on the ice!  Not that anyone has to be mean, but I don't expect competitors to cheer each other on - except for when they're in the team competition.  

 

That’s not at all what I’m talking about. We were all discussing the team event where they have a designated cheering box for each country, and then the teammates all go to the Kiss and Cry. Every year there are people who aren’t skating in the team competition who still go cheer for their teammates. They aren’t going to get a medal from that event, but they’re still supportive. Personally, I think it shows great sportsmanship, and I really respect the skaters who do it.

It annoyed me this year to see Madison Hubbel specifically thank the skaters who did it, when she herself was unwilling to. Yay for the people who celebrate her! But don’t expect her to celebrate anyone else. There’s a reason she’s considered one of the entitlement twins.

[Lady Whistleup]

30 minutes ago, choclatechip45 said:

I think so. He's been obsessed with all things USSR/Russia his whole entire life and now they finally did something he can't defend. I think I read somewhere he's been obsessed since he was a 5 years old that is a long time!

In the figure skating world there are these fans who are American and named Karen or Jane but who go to all figure skating competitions in fur coats and give themselves a nickname like Natasha or Svetlana. It's incredibly weird. But Johnny Weir sounds like that type of fan.

[GeminiDancer]

3 hours ago, Minneapple said:

That was an issue with gymnastics too, but they changed the scoring system to almost zero out the artistic elements.

*cough* Mykayla Skinner winning a medal on vault *cough*

[blackwing]

39 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

That’s not at all what I’m talking about. We were all discussing the team event where they have a designated cheering box for each country, and then the teammates all go to the Kiss and Cry. Every year there are people who aren’t skating in the team competition who still go cheer for their teammates. They aren’t going to get a medal from that event, but they’re still supportive. Personally, I think it shows great sportsmanship, and I really respect the skaters who do it.

It annoyed me this year to see Madison Hubbel specifically thank the skaters who did it, when she herself was unwilling to. Yay for the people who celebrate her! But don’t expect her to celebrate anyone else. There’s a reason she’s considered one of the entitlement twins.

I am glad to hear that she is retiring.  Such a hypocrite.  I do hope that Chock and Bates stick around for another four years.  They are 32 and 29, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility, is it?  Have they said anything about this?

Since the women's competition has devolved into a farce, I think it would be incredibly awesome if multiple spectators or officials from other country contingents brought air horns and let them rip just before Grandpa Doped Me launches into her now-known-to-have-been-achieved-through-doping quads.  She deserves to go splat city as often as possible.  I would rewind the DVR over and over.

[choclatechip45]

22 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

In the figure skating world there are these fans who are American and named Karen or Jane but who go to all figure skating competitions in fur coats and give themselves a nickname like Natasha or Svetlana. It's incredibly weird. But Johnny Weir sounds like that type of fan.

That is strange. I remember him saying his whole USSR/Russia obsession started because of the cold war he didn't understand why America hated them.

[Good Queen Jane]

Interesting comments from the skaters about raising the minimum age. It would be nice to see women's figure skating instead of little girl's figure skating.

20 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

In the figure skating world there are these fans who are American and named Karen or Jane but who go to all figure skating competitions in fur coats and give themselves a nickname like Natasha or Svetlana.

As an American figure skating fan named Jane who has been to nine Worlds and 28 US Nationals, I want to say I have never worn a fur coat. Blue scarf, yes, but never a fur coat. And only a royal nickname, not a Russian one.

[choclatechip45]

Just now, blackwing said:

I am glad to hear that she is retiring.  Such a hypocrite.  I do hope that Chock and Bates stick around for another four years.  They are 32 and 29, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility, is it?  Have they said anything about this?

Since the women's competition has devolved into a farce, I think it would be incredibly awesome if multiple spectators or officials from other country contingents brought air horns and let them rip just before Grandpa Doped Me launches into her now-known-to-have-been-achieved-through-doping quads.  She deserves to go splat city as often as possible.  I would rewind the DVR over and over.

They said they aren't retiring and want to compete. They also don't plan on getting married until they are done competing. 

My impression is that they will compete as long as they are able too.  I know Madison has had some injuries. 

[blackwing]

Just now, choclatechip45 said:

That is strange. I remember him saying his whole USSR/Russia obsession started because of the cold war he didn't understand why America hated them.

That's strange too.  Ummm Johnny, the reason why there was hate/fear (on both sides) is because the threat of nuclear annihilation is something that most normal people would consider worrisome.

[Lady Whistleup]

1 minute ago, Good Queen Jane said:

As an American figure skating fan named Jane who has been to nine Worlds and 28 US Nationals, I want to say I have never worn a fur coat. Blue scarf, yes, but never a fur coat. And only a royal nickname, not a Russian one.

But you know what I'm talking about right? It's kind of nuts.

[choclatechip45]

Just now, Good Queen Jane said:

Interesting comments from the skaters about raising the minimum age. It would be nice to see women's figure skating instead of little girl's figure skating.

As an American figure skating fan named Jane who has been to nine Worlds and 28 US Nationals, I want to say I have never worn a fur coat. Blue scarf, yes, but never a fur coat. And only a royal nickname, not a Russian one.

I don't think raising the age will help. Gymnastics has a long history of underage gymnasts competing and no one caring. They only get punished when they file official paperwork. Russia will let 15 year olds compete. 

[GeminiDancer]

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

Does anyone else think maybe Johnny feels personally betrayed by the Russians and blindsided by the doping? He's propped them up for years, always gushes over their skaters and says nice things about them despite the sketchy and abusive training methods. His comments today made it seem like he was holding back and trying not to say something awful. He and Tara hardly said anything during Kamila's skate, and at the end Johnny was all, "Well, that was a short program by Kamila Valieva and that's all I'll say about that."

Oh absolutely. Considering how much he propped up Russian skating with having a Russian coach, many Russian choreographers, it's not surprising that he feels devastated by what happened. At the same time, I'm like Russia has been doping their athletes for years, what makes you think figure skating was above that?

[Lady Whistleup]

1 minute ago, choclatechip45 said:

I don't think raising the age will help. Gymnastics has a long history of underage gymnasts competing and no one caring. They only get punished when they file official paperwork. Russia will let 15 year olds compete. 

Also as I said, the issue is the abusive coaches. Gymnastics and figure skating coaches are notoriously abusive, and raising the age limit doesn't change the fact that the methods used to get athletes to perform are abusive.

[EllenB]

It would be nice if this site would give us a Mad as Fuck reaction button for occasions like the current Russians-cheating-again fiasco.

[choclatechip45]

4 minutes ago, blackwing said:

That's strange too.  Ummm Johnny, the reason why there was hate/fear (on both sides) is because the threat of nuclear annihilation is something that most normal people would consider worrisome.

Yup I think the Russia obsession for him started before he was a figure skater. 

1 minute ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Also as I said, the issue is the abusive coaches. Gymnastics and figure skating coaches are notoriously abusive, and raising the age limit doesn't change the fact that the methods used to get athletes to perform are abusive.

I agree. It's like putting a loose band-aid on the situation. If you want to stop abusive coaches start banning coaches. Start putting rules in place for boundaries. For some reason people forget Nassar was abusing college students. 

[blackwing]

12 minutes ago, choclatechip45 said:

I don't think raising the age will help. Gymnastics has a long history of underage gymnasts competing and no one caring. They only get punished when they file official paperwork. Russia will let 15 year olds compete. 

I don't think they need to raise the minimum age.  Female figure skaters mature as skaters quicker than males, isn't that why we never see 15 year old male skaters at the Olympics but plenty of 15 year old girls?  But then the females retire more quickly too. If you raise the minimum age then you decrease the window of competition years for a female skater.  I was a bit surprised to hear that at the ripe old age of 25, Mariah Bell is the oldest women's U.S. national champion since the 1920s.  At 25, a male figure skater might be just reaching his peak.

What CAS/IOC/whoever needs to do is to make 15 year olds accountable.  Just because you are legally a minor doesn't mean you aren't responsible for what you are taking.  Your body, your issue.  If creepy cult leader asks you to take a sip from Grandpa's glass, you should be aware of what is in it and have the right to say no.  If creepy cult leader is still forcing you to drink from Grandpa's glass, then either you do it and accept the consequences if you get caught, or you refuse and leave the cult.

Edited February 15, 2022 by blackwing

[Minneapple]

16 minutes ago, choclatechip45 said:

I don't think raising the age will help. Gymnastics has a long history of underage gymnasts competing and no one caring. They only get punished when they file official paperwork. Russia will let 15 year olds compete. 

Other than 2008 when the Chinese clearly cheated and had younger gymnasts on their squad, I don't think there have been any female gymnasts under the age of 15 competing (though some gymnasts, I think notably the Russians, were able to take advantage of the fact that the last Summer Games were delayed by a year). I think Kyla Ross turned 16 shortly after London. You can clearly see how gymnastics has changed since they raised the age limit and changed the scoring system. The gymnasts are now more powerful than balletic; they have muscles in their hips and shoulders. They're still short but they look like they pack a punch.

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I don't think they need to raise the minimum age.  Female figure skaters mature quicker than males, isn't that why we never see 15 year old male skaters?  But then the females retire more quickly too. If you raise the minimum age then you decrease the window of competition years for a female skater.  I was a bit surprised to hear that at the ripe old age of 25, Mariah Bell is the oldest women's U.S. national champion since the 1920s.  At 25, a male figure skater might be just reaching his peak.

What CAS/IOC/whoever needs to do is to make 15 year olds accountable.  Just because you are legally a minor doesn't mean you aren't responsible for what you are taking.  Your body, your issue.  If creepy cult leader asks you to take a sip from Grandpa's glass, you should be aware of what is in it and have the right to say no.  If creepy cult leader is still forcing you to drink from Grandpa's glass, then either you do it and accept the consequences if you get caught, or you refuse and leave the cult.

But they really don't mature quicker.  The problem is ladies figure skating values being a waif who somehow has the power to land impossible jumps.  This is terrible on the body and causes the skaters to have very short careers.  Gone are the days where female skaters could have bodies that could withstand skating for more than a couple of years.  Women like Surya Bonaly or Tonya Harding have no place in 21st century figure skating.  

[absnow54]

15 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I don't think they need to raise the minimum age.  Female figure skaters mature as skaters quicker than males, isn't that why we never see 15 year old male skaters at the Olympics but plenty of 15 year old girls?  But then the females retire more quickly too. If you raise the minimum age then you decrease the window of competition years for a female skater.  I was a bit surprised to hear that at the ripe old age of 25, Mariah Bell is the oldest women's U.S. national champion since the 1920s.  At 25, a male figure skater might be just reaching his peak.

What CAS/IOC/whoever needs to do is to make 15 year olds accountable.  Just because you are legally a minor doesn't mean you aren't responsible for what you are taking.  Your body, your issue.  If creepy cult leader asks you to take a sip from Grandpa's glass, you should be aware of what is in it and have the right to say no.  If creepy cult leader is still forcing you to drink from Grandpa's glass, then either you do it and accept the consequences if you get caught, or you refuse and leave the cult.

It's biology. A 15 year old girl may have not fully gone through puberty yet, and puberty is what kills a lot of women's jumps, because they develop curves and their center of gravity changes. Men are less impacted, so their jumps improve with age, until injuries and stamina get in the way. So raising the age limit won't shorten women's competitive windows, it will just shift the difficulty of their jumps. 

But I agree with you. They either have to raise the minimum age for international competition OR the age for a "Protected Persons" has to match the age eligibility to compete at a senior level. Everyone has to follow the same standards if they want to compete. 

[choclatechip45]

1 minute ago, Minneapple said:

Other than 2008 when the Chinese clearly cheated and had younger gymnasts on their squad, I don't think there have been any female gymnasts under the age of 15 competing (though some gymnasts, I think notably the Russians, were able to take advantage of the fact that the last Summer Games were delayed by a year). I think Kyla Ross turned 16 shortly after London. You can clearly see how gymnastics has changed since they raised the age limit and changed the scoring system. The gymnasts are now more powerful than balletic; they have muscles in their hips and shoulders. They're still short but they look like they pack a punch.

I'm talking about the 80s as well when Romania and the Soviet Union were using underage gymnasts. Marinescu, Silvas (was world champion at age 13) and Goegean are probably the most famous. 

There is also the case of 2000 Chinese Olympic Team.