S01.E05: Tragically Hip

[ifionlyknew]

45 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Is this "Tinderbox"?

Yes.  I'm almost done with it.  It is a good read.

[RedHawk]

On 1/10/2022 at 12:57 PM, LegalParrot81 said:

I get the sense that Kim has wanted to distance herself from all things SATC for a long time.  She's closed that chapter of her life and wants everyone else to also.  JMO

And she left before the iconic character she played could be completely destroyed. The way they wrote the character in the second movie was bad enough, can't imagine what they'd have done for AJLT. (Well, there have been rumors about Brady, OMG.) Kudos to KC for being smart, tough, and professional. 

[Black Knight]

Back to discussion of this episode, please.

[TaurusRose]

On 12/30/2021 at 12:36 PM, RedHawk said:

The writers need to "check the box" on that, but this being SATC/AJLT we'll still see the gals (and guys -- "Hot Buns" delivery or whatever that company Anthony runs, sure it's cute and typical but UGH) acting like times haven't changed.

If “Hooters” is still “Hooters,” I’m not going to get too upset about “Hot Buns.”

On 12/31/2021 at 11:53 AM, Maysie said:

From that article linked above: 

Parker, 56, was particularly upset by the claims against the man who played Carrie Bradshaw’s longtime love interest and eventual husband.

“She is fiercely protective of Carrie Bradshaw and livid that she and everyone else at the show has been put into this position,” an insider recently told Us. “It is not about the money, but rather her legacy. Carrie was all about helping women and now, under her watch, women are saying that they have been hurt.”

On the page before, ifionlyknew mentioned that the lines between Carrie and SJP are a little blurry, and the quote above seems to make that line fuzzier. It’s like the character and the actress are interchangeable, and if this is a real quote, I think that’s weird and a little creepy. I understand it is poorly worded, but still, whose money and legacy are they talking about and who was all about helping women? I figure they’re actually referring to SJP, but it reads like Carrie which almost implies they’re one in the same.

It occurs to me that in a way, the Chris Noth mess is kind of giving them an out. I get the feeling that they’re going to use that as an excuse for tepid fan response and criticism of the show.

I call BS on SJP’s “upset,” and they can try to spin their failure to catch on on Noth, but I deal in facts and reality. The two have nothing to do with each other.

On 1/2/2022 at 2:26 PM, Tattooeddancer said:

As far as the possibility of Aiden returning, I never understood why Aiden would WANT Carrie back. She consistently treated him terribly. The reason the second movie was so unbelievable to me was "Why would Aiden want to kiss someone who treated him badly in not one but two relationships and he seemingly moved on from?"

Those scenes with Aiden and Carrie made me cringe.  Their only purpose was to make Carrie think she was all that and a bag of chips while endangering everything she’d been chasing for years.  That’s when I knew there was no coming back from my Carrie hatred.

[RealHousewife]

20 minutes ago, TaurusRose said:

If “Hooters” is still “Hooters,” I’m not going to get too upset about “Hot Buns.”

I call BS on SJP’s “upset,” and they can try to spin their failure to catch on on Noth, but I deal in facts and reality. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Those scenes with Aiden and Carrie made me cringe.  Their only purpose was to make Carrie think she was all that and a bag of chips while endangering everything she’d been chasing for years.  That’s when I knew there was no coming back from my Carrie hatred.

Honestly, where I live, there's Hooters and other "breastaurants" and not one establishment where men are the ones being objectified for women. It would be more fair if there were a "Hot Buns."

[b2H]

49 minutes ago, TaurusRose said:

I call BS on SJP’s “upset,” and they can try to spin their failure to catch on on Noth, but I deal in facts and reality. The two have nothing to do with each other.

Me, too.  The show was in the can, every episode of it, long before these revelations came out.

[mansonlamps]

20 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

Honestly, where I live, there's Hooters and other "breastaurants" and not one establishment where men are the ones being objectified for women. It would be more fair if there were a "Hot Buns."

Honestly,  I saw a forum where a man was angry with his wife only "taking him" there once a year for his birthday and all the other men were totally sympathizing.   I'm glad I'm not married to such a loser that he would want me to spend his birthday watching him ogle young girls and not even realizing they are just laughing at him behind his back🙄

[Rai]

Anthony's bakery is actually called Hot Fellas, but I've been saying it should be Hot Buns, and I will die on this hill. 😃

PS, and I would order from it at least once.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Rai

[Aulty]

16 minutes ago, Rai said:

Anthony's bakery is actually called Hot Fellas, but I've been saying it should be Hot Buns, and I will die on this hill. 😃

It is a better name, but there probably is a, or even several, Hot Buns bakeries or delivery services out there and TV shows have to be really careful not to run into legal trouble with that sort of thing.

 

[Rai]

Yes, true, and also I'm mainly making a joke since I know I won't have any effect on what the showrunners name a fake bakery. 😉

[RealHousewife]

9 hours ago, mansonlamps said:

Honestly,  I saw a forum where a man was angry with his wife only "taking him" there once a year for his birthday and all the other men were totally sympathizing.   I'm glad I'm not married to such a loser that he would want me to spend his birthday watching him ogle young girls and not even realizing they are just laughing at him behind his back🙄

I totally understand young girls working there for the $, but it's weird to me when families dine there together. The place is literally more or less called boobs. So fucking tacky. Why don't they at least make a place with a sexy vibe that has an elegance to it? I digress . . . 

[paramitch]

I'm coming into this with a little different perspective, so I'm aware I may be sitting at a very lonely table.

BUT.

I never really loved SATC to the extent that I felt like the characters had to be or stay certain people. I feel kind of lucky for that. So I am not married to some idea that Miranda has to stay the person she was 20 years ago, honestly. Or any of them. The irony is that for me, Carrie is still the bitchy entitled woman she always was (with those moments of intelligence and compassion -- which SJP acts really well), and Charlotte hasn't changed a beat.

But Miranda always felt to me like the person struggling against who she was supposed to be versus who she wanted to be. So that's interesting and moving to me. Even when she finally got together with Steve, it felt like she was giving in, in some ways, like "Oh well okay, he loves me."

I like Che. And I like the effect Che has had on Miranda. I thought the kitchen scene was cringeworthy because it wasn't private (poor Carrie), but I also thought it was pretty scorching hot. And Cynthia Nixon absolutely killed me in the conversation after with Carrie -- her total embarrassment, her bright facade, and then the absolute sadness, the little gasps that she gives when she's absolutely lost it and admits, "I'm unhappy." And it's Unhappy, capital U. Which I buy. Even when they got together, I never got Miranda and Steve together. What do they have to talk about? Steve is a nice guy but that's also the curse of Steve's character. He's nice. He is all wrong for Miranda and always was (to me). Is it any surprise that her marriage to a "nice" guy who likes to sit in a chair and watch TV was doomed? Seriously?

I admit that I've always kind of hated Carrie even though I cared about her (for me the nadir was her screeching bloody murder at that goddamn squirrel with Aidan, like she'd never fricking seen a squirrel before in NY). I cared about the characters, too, and loved how it dared to ask some interesting questions about life and relationships. Even though I always felt (and still do) that if Carrie couldn't find a great guy after, what, hundreds of beautiful leading men, that maybe she would never be happy with anyone (or of course we got the irony that it was Guy #1 all along, in Big).

I just think the show is at least daring to ask complicated questions about sexuality, which (for a show called "Sex and the City" it really didn't do much before). As a middle-aged woman who over the past year has come to realize that I am not 100% heterosexual, I like and respect that it is entirely possible that Miranda may have new realizations about herself, and that this is not a betrayal of the show, even if CN herself has experienced that journey.

On 12/30/2021 at 1:02 PM, EdnasEdibles said:

I liked Steve but I never liked or understood Steve & Miranda together. They never felt like a great love affair to me. They dated and had issues from the start with money (his corduroy suit) and then she got pregnant and didn't even want to tell him or partner wish him for a bit. She had more chemistry with Blair Underwood and it seemed like she and Steve didn't get together until he had prostate cancer and she was worried about him. And even then he wanted Brooklyn and she did not but relented. She complained about his mom a lot and while she did eventually agree to let mom move in and cared for her, she was always so long-suffering about it. He cheated on her. She forgave him. They never had sex even back then. They don't have sex now. She drinks too much because she's miserable. 

This. I feel like a lot of people are romanticizing Steve, and he is a sweet guy but also seriously problematic in so many ways upon reexamination.

On 12/30/2021 at 11:29 AM, Rai said:

I've said it before, so I'll take the UO that Steve is my least favorite. Miranda's whole story arc on SATC always made me feel that she had to be brought down a peg or two for daring to be outspoken and ambitious and using her brain ahead of her body (in contrast to Samantha who used both). I never minded her and Steve being friends, that part was pretty great actually. But as a romantic partner, I felt like he dragged her down. That said, I don't think Miranda means literally the whole thing has always made her miserable. As noted, there's been a lot of time since his affair and their reconciliation and sometimes, it's hard to pinpoint when dissatisfaction sneaks in. Watching Miranda switch from her sex high into raw emotion was pretty affecting, and I think there's more heartbreak ahead because yeah, Che doesn't come off as looking for romance with "Rambo."

Because this arc probably does has personal significance to Cynthia Nixon, I'm in favor of letting her share that. People do grow apart and come out later in life and go through weird journeys.

Still, skipping THREE WHOLE MONTHS of these questions just to see Carrie in heels again is not a good use of limited time. I hope we'll be looping back, otherwise, that was a terrible way to wrap up the episode because there's a lot that just got unpacked.

100% this on Steve.

Meanwhile, I know the show is for some reason in love with the idea that Carrie is not Carrie without the ginormous ridiculous heels, so that I'm sure to the show (and to many) Carrie's return to heels was triumphant. But to me it just felt so silly. There is nothing good about those things or what they do to your body. Yes, they can be beautiful, and fashion is important to Carrie. But still -- it would be kind of cool if she'd had a realization that, "Hey, these flats are beautiful too."

On 12/30/2021 at 6:29 PM, EvergreenLove said:

Unpopular opinion - I don't mind Che.  I appreciate Sara Ramirez' portrayal, and they are the only one making their character believable (even though I find some facets potentially problematic). 

I like what SR brings to Che—I think they're charismatic and beautiful, and I like that Che's a complicated character -- the writers could have presented Che as MUCH more likable and as an easy savior for Miranda and they haven't, which I respect. No, the day drinking probably wasn't cool, but it was meant as a funny get-well present, not "let's all drink this now." And to Che's credit, we have them openly asking permission multiple times -- does Miranda accept this, can they touch her, does she want them to keep going, etc. It is a verbal element of the entire scene repeatedly. So no, despite the booze, I never felt the scene removed Miranda's agency. And I appreciated that.

On 12/30/2021 at 7:18 PM, txhorns79 said:

I like the character of Steve, but I have seen similar couples, where they work initially, but cannot sustain things in the long term.  I've thought back to the original show, and aside from their child, what are Miranda and Steve's shared interests?  What keeps them together?   

This has been my main problem with them all along. I have trouble imagining conversations between Miranda and Steve that last more than 5 minutes or center on what they're having for dinner that night. I always felt like it was a spectacularly bad match. I realize and believe Steve loves her -- I think he's a simple guy who thinks love is enough. I also think Miranda is NOT a simple person and that it takes more than just "he really loves me" for a relationship to work.

On 12/30/2021 at 8:20 PM, luna1122 said:

And I'm shallow, but the last thing I want when I'm  at my weakest and most vulnerable is a hot physical therapist, male or female. It shouldn't matter, obviously, but that'd make me feel even worse. Gimme the cuddly looking guy who takes my insurance. 

Does CN identify as bi or pan or lesbian? Che is non binary so its not really correct to call this a lesbian fling for Miranda. I am torn about Che. I think SR is a good actor, with considerable charisma, but I don’t really like Che. For one, and this is me being shallow again, I really really hate that haircut on anyone.

I agree with those who thought the "ugly therapist" thing was just weird and shallow and silly. I've been dealing with serious illness this past year and believe me, I don't care what my therapists look like. I care about how they can help me heal. It just reinforced that at heart, Carrie remains shallow.

Meanwhile, I think CN herself now identifies as bi, but I agree that the fling makes Miranda pansexual, not bi.

I think SR is gorgeous, and I've loved them since they won a Tony for "Spamalot" (before Grey's), but while I get the ambivalence of some toward their haircut, it is empowering and a statement that also goes beyond fashion.

Last but not least, I know many are not happy with AJLT as a SATC continuation, but I would question the use of "woke" like it's a negative thing or a swear word. While the right wing have weaponized the term, at its best, being "woke" simply means being awake to issues of diversity and inclusivity. It's about caring about social justice and change -- being awake, and listening.

So I'm happy the show is attempting, however awkwardly, to admit that the world isn't just rich white women (and a few token gay male friends), and that it takes all sizes, shapes, genders,  races, and orientations. Sorry (jumps off soapbox).

Last but not least, I miss Samantha, although I don't understand where the show's going with this storyline approach (especially given the silly reason Sam isn't speaking to Carrie), as if it's going to bring KC back? I mean, I just don't see that happening. Period.

Edited January 25, 2022 by paramitch
Forgot therapist note

[RedHawk]

Moved to Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered thread.

Edited January 25, 2022 by RedHawk
Moved to different episode thread

[retired watcher]

On 12/30/2021 at 4:31 PM, Linda956 said:

Okay, it's reached the point where I don't know if I can continue watching this show.  I've come to hate all the characters.  I don't recognize them anymore.  Carrie was always a bitch, but she's become an uber bitch.  It's all me me me! Thankfully, they didn't have her being attracted to her therapist but really, who cares what he looks like?  As long as he's good at his job.  I don't recognize Miranda anymore and I hate to be petty, but SJP has not aged well at all!  Every time they go in for a closeup, I cringe.  The lines, the hair.  Good God, they need to avoid closeups!

Why do women have to age well? I give her credit for not having a frozen face like so many actresses. It is hard to age naturally when so many are going under the knife.

[ivygirl]

@paramitch—just now reading your post. I appreciate that you added your perspective (and especially that you did so without calling all of us who found fault with the direction the show took “haters” or afraid of change). Thank you. 

For me, it’s not so much that Miranda changed; it’s that we didn’t get to understand how the changes happened in a way that felt like the character we “knew.” As someone has said, you can get a reader/viewer to go along with almost anything so long as you make it believable and demonstrate HOW that character development came about. For me, that was lacking. 

And I agree that Steve and Miranda were not a great fit—AND that Steve’s main character quality (or one of them) is his niceness. That’s what makes how Miranda handled the situation so painful to me. She just kind of dropped things in his lap. And yeah—I can see how she might find his idea of a good time boring… bur she also kind of treated it like a character fault, which it isn’t (in and of itself… I mean if he’s completely unwilling to break out of a rut, or address other issues… that’s something else). But his crimes seemed to be 1. enjoying hanging out on the couch for movie and ice cream night and 2. Not being Che. Had they handled things more like they did in the first movie—with struggles and conversation—it would have felt different. My guess is that Steve may have still been very hurt, but perhaps not so blindsided. It was like he had no agency. So we have a nice guy who gets this very life-changing news just kind of dropped on him… It’s kind of natural to feel for him. 

 

[paramitch]

On 2/20/2022 at 9:18 PM, ivygirl said:

@paramitch—just now reading your post. I appreciate that you added your perspective (and especially that you did so without calling all of us who found fault with the direction the show took “haters” or afraid of change). Thank you. 

For me, it’s not so much that Miranda changed; it’s that we didn’t get to understand how the changes happened in a way that felt like the character we “knew.” As someone has said, you can get a reader/viewer to go along with almost anything so long as you make it believable and demonstrate HOW that character development came about. For me, that was lacking. 

And I agree that Steve and Miranda were not a great fit—AND that Steve’s main character quality (or one of them) is his niceness. That’s what makes how Miranda handled the situation so painful to me. She just kind of dropped things in his lap. And yeah—I can see how she might find his idea of a good time boring… bur she also kind of treated it like a character fault, which it isn’t (in and of itself… I mean if he’s completely unwilling to break out of a rut, or address other issues… that’s something else). But his crimes seemed to be 1. enjoying hanging out on the couch for movie and ice cream night and 2. Not being Che. Had they handled things more like they did in the first movie—with struggles and conversation—it would have felt different. My guess is that Steve may have still been very hurt, but perhaps not so blindsided. It was like he had no agency. So we have a nice guy who gets this very life-changing news just kind of dropped on him… It’s kind of natural to feel for him. 

 

Hey, @ivygirl! Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

First off, you're very welcome, and I'm really not here to spoil anyone's fun. I just wanted to point out that the show seems to be trying to listen in ways that it didn't previously (sometimes, glaringly).

I mean, look, I didn't hate SATC, although as someone who is demi and pansexual (lately realized), I never understood why it wasn't sexy to me, although I do now. I just found the constant instant hookups unappealing, the (primarily) heterosexual POV a turnoff, and honestly, most of the sex just looked boring and unimaginative to me. And very male-gaze-oriented. 

But yes, my initial reaction to Miranda's actions with Che was, "Oh, but she's married." And then we had her outburst to Carrie, and got to see what she was feeling. So I was angry at Miranda, but understanding.

Meanwhile, I think you may be referring plotwise to much later events with Steve, but yes, I do feel bad for him. But also happy because this union is doomed and needs to end for both their sakes.

In which case, yes, (SPOILERS) 

Spoiler

I agree that leaving Steve unaware and oblivious is somewhat cruel, if also realistic. And I admit, it's so typical that Steve never had a clue. It made me angry at him. It's a great encapsulation of everything that is wrong with their marriage. And why he will be so much happier with someone else -- I do wish him well.

It's not about him committing "crimes." It's about a profound lack of connection or empathy or attempt at connection. I get that you like him and want to show "ice cream on the couch" as this special thing, but it isn't and wouldn't be for everyone. Some people would scream internally that this is all there is, at the lack of intelligent connection or conversation.

 

Anyway. Steve just assumes everyone's okay. As he always has. All of which have been hallmarks of "nice guy" Steve. He loves her. I'm just not sure he wants to WORK at it. He's done zero as of this series. He just seems to think his love for Miranda is enough. And this episode's incredibly dramatic revelation that it is not enough for Miranda moved me deeply.

Thanks for the discussion -- cheers.

Edited February 23, 2022 by paramitch
messed up spoiler!

[WendyCR72]

16 hours ago, paramitch said:

Anyway. Steve just assumes everyone's okay. As he always has. All of which have been hallmarks of "nice guy" Steve. He loves her. I'm just not sure he wants to WORK at it.

I have to take issue here. Steve didn't know there was anything to work on, because Miranda never told him. Communication in a marriage is a two-way street.

Steve seemed more than willing to spice up their marriage in the scene where Miranda wanted Steve to do her like Che did. She is the one that did not try.

So my anger with Miranda still burns hot and remains. Speaking for myself only, I'd be more than happy to never see her again. Let her wallow out in California.

[paramitch]

8 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I have to take issue here. Steve didn't know there was anything to work on, because Miranda never told him. Communication in a marriage is a two-way street.

Steve seemed more than willing to spice up their marriage in the scene where Miranda wanted Steve to do her like Che did. She is the one that did not try.

So my anger with Miranda still burns hot and remains. Speaking for myself only, I'd be more than happy to never see her again. Let her wallow out in California.

To be clear -- I'm not defending Miranda and I'm not trashing Steve.

I can't stand cheaters, and hate what she did. But for me, the show has attempted to give us a complex demonstration of Miranda's journey enough so that I can understand what she did (and why) even if I don't condone it. And I found it surprising and moving.

Meanwhile, I don't dislike Steve, I just think they are a spectacularly bad match. I don't really see any way that the two of them could ever work out. The best thing for Steve is for Miranda to go and for him to find someone who shares more of his ideologies and general life approaches.

But I get that YMMV. Like I said, I'm aware that mine is a minority opinion on this here. But I thought it would be worth sharing. 

[circumvent]

On 12/25/2021 at 12:02 PM, Hanahope said:

its not that unusual for a woman in her 50s to need hip replacement surgery

In the US, that is. Hip replacement is one of the most overused procedures because out system is about making money for everyone, while delivering bad care for people who need it. It cost us all every time someone has one, even if the person does not pay that much or nothing at all. Most of the hip and knee replacement cases, and spine surgery are totally unnecessary.

[Not4Me]

On 5/31/2022 at 4:01 PM, circumvent said:

In the US, that is. Hip replacement is one of the most overused procedures because out system is about making money for everyone, while delivering bad care for people who need it. It cost us all every time someone has one, even if the person does not pay that much or nothing at all. Most of the hip and knee replacement cases, and spine surgery are totally unnecessary.

These types of surgeries should typically be the last resort if someone has exhausted all other non-invasive and minimally invasive procedures, like physical therapy or a cortisone shot, etc. 

I assume with Carrie, being the idiot that she is with gobs of money and no sense of priorities, she never tried/considered non-invasive treatments (or even bothered to monitor her use of high heels over the years) and just settled for the highest priced surgeon who saw her and then they realized they hit paydirt.