S01.E10: The Leap

[paulvdb]

Quote

An unexpected ally helps Salvor broker an alliance. A confrontation between the Brothers leads to unthinkable consequences.

Premiere date: November 19, 2021

[AnimeMania]

Season Finale

[AnimeMania]

I was going to say how did Salvor learn how to fly a spaceship after only one lesson, but I guess the answer was that she didn't.

[Zonk]

Oh where to beging? This episode was chock full of bullshit.

So I guess the beginning... So Hari's cofin transformed into a vault of super-technology and even with all the time the construction would have taken it made it to Terminus before the settlers? Sure. And it made a hologram of Hari that is completely independant from the one we've already seen? Why couldn't those sync through hyperspace communication? Also where did the vault-cofin get the data from the hologram from? By the time the foundation put the body in there the brain should have been too degraded and the data was in the knife that Gaal has with her.

 

How could Hari predict how the crisis would play out if he didn't know about Salvor and her special abilities? She was instrumental for that to happen. Otherwise that would have been a shitshow of epic proportions. I guess we are back to psychohistory being magic.

 

The woman on Terminus saying "Gaal never made it to Terminus" to Hari. Maybe she should have added "We thought she and Raach murdered you. We executed him for that crime. You colossal asshole."

 

And after a few exposition dumps hari fucks right back off into the vault?! What the actual fuck?! I guess there is a massive timejump anyway, but the writers better get him out of there for next season the moment that episode starts or I am out of here. Enough is enough.

 

Is the empire really not going to check up on a colony of "terrorists" they still talk about to this day? It's not like it's a thousand year journey. It's a short jump. I think the writers kinda screwed themselves when they introduced jump technologie. If there were only "slow" (still way faster than light) ships I could buy it. Of course then the empire would have no grasp on the galaxy... So never mind, I guess...

So I guess you could finally say this is a reason for Terminus to orbit a red dwarf. Such megaflares you wouldn't get from less volitile stars. Of course the red dwarf also should have sterilised that planet multiple times over for real and there shouldn't be life on it, but whatever, I guess. Also it still doesn't look red... and Terminus has a day night cycle, which means it wouldn't be in the habitable zone... but whatever, I guess.

Also why would empire not check up on the other two planets full of dummies, just because they faked the sterilisation of terminus? Empire bombed them just a few decades ago. You'd think they would at least from time to time check up on them to see that they don't mount a resistance...

 

The biological determinism these writers espouse really grinds my gears. The Nazis would be super-fans. We are always a combination of our DNA and our experiences, also hormones we got blasted with in the womb and other environmental factors.

I saw it coming from a mile away that Demerzel would kill Dawn to resolve the conflict. Because that is what hack writers would do. So predictable. I think I should just start thinking "what is the worst way I could write this" and my predictions about this story will become way more accurate. Of course it's total bullshit, because she has always said she was loyal to Empire, meaning the Cleons who are currently alive and not "the cleonic dynasty", like she said here. Also she just broke the first law of robotics. Somewhere Asimov is rotating in his grave near the speed of light.

So they really keep all their DNA in that guy in a glass box? They don't have some in cryo somewhere? And that change was made before current Day was made? That is exactly the opposite of what rebel lady told us last episode. Why would she lie? She was doing her evil monolouge and was sure she was going to kill Dawn soon. Also where did the rebels have the DNA for their replacement dawn from? They said he was genetically pure. Did they smuggle it out a hundred years ago? And if the Cleon in a box is corrupted, what would the palace even have to compare the DNA to? Do they actually have it on file? If so why don't they use that for cloning? It gets worse and worse the more you think about it.

Also if Day isn't a perfect clone, shouldn't he have gotten a vision, if we take that religious bullshit seriously?

 

Should I really root for the megalomaniacal, ruthless Emporer, who kills thousands just because they knew a rebel? Because I do. He is the only interesting and relateable character in this whole show (well and Demerzel, maybe). Ironic considering how much the writers want to tell us that he isn't his own person.

 

My congratulations to the cryopod-wizard again. His magic is strong indeed! Not only can it fly faster than light, it can also preserve life for hundrets of year, not only in space but also in saltwater, after a crash landing. Also it crashlands exactly at the childhood home of one of our heroins! What precision! What a great luck-enchantment! Only thing he skimped out on a bit was the magic life boat. It constructed itself fine, and looked super fake while doing it, like any good magic should, but then it doesn't have a magic outboard motor? You have to use the magic paddles? Really that's just lazy, cryopod-wizard!

 

I think the writers thought we would be surprised by Salvor being Gaal's daughter and, at the end of the episode, it being Salvor who was in the pod, considering the whole blanket reveal bullshit? Guys, you explained the embryo harvesting for hours and when Gaal dragged Salvor to the surfice we could see her hair. Nobody else has that hairstyle.

 

Up until now I kinda had fun hate-watching this show. But I think this episode just broke me. I'm broken.

[Hanahope]

Hari thought it would be Gaal opening his vault.  Salvor obviously has Gaal's DNA and that's why it worked for her.  Lucky for Hari that Salvor's mother opted to have Salvor implanted in her, though it sounded like the vault might have opened anyway once the Anacreans landed on Terminus (it was programed into the vault).  in any event, i figured out Salvor was Gaal's daughter several episodes ago.  it was pretty obvious with the coin that both had future premonitions and when Salvor's mother pushed the math device into Salvor's hands thinking she could work it (because she knew Gaal had).  

I do agree that if Terminus is a relatively short jump for the Empire, there's no reason why they wouldn't go check it out "just to be sure."  but maybe Hari thought that Empire would actually be fine with Terminus blowing up and so not bother.  And we don't know that the Anacreans and the other race are actually going back and forth to their home planets (which were already decimated by the Empire's attack that Empire probably believes they are no threat individually and doesn't consider they might team up against Empire), as opposed to just moving forward with the people in Terminus and building only there.  

I admit to being a little confused with the corrupted DNA story, exactly how that occurred.  was the corruption done "in the lab"? or was it done to the original body?  do they actually go to the body to collect more DNA?  If its just from a source saved "in a lab", I presume the rebels took some original DNA to make their "pure" clone, then corrupted the remaining DNA in the lab so that any future clones would be corrupted.  and how far back did this go?  it sounded like it only occurred right before the current Dawn was born, but now they are suggesting there was corruption going back further?  Was that intended corruption or just accidental, as what could happen as a matter of course with constant clones?  If its accidental/matter of course, it would seem that corruption is minor (though it might compound over the years, i.e. the copy of copies get continuously 'fuzzy'), but the rebels introduction of more corruption created the major changes in Dawn.

So maybe Day's act of breaking the  glass of Cleon 1 is not only intended to go back to 'pure DNA' but also be an outlet for his rage.  Guess we'll see what has happened to the clones after 138 years next season.  we will get completely new Dusk, Day and Dawn.

Now, Demerzel's actions are somewhat explained.  she has always said she is loyal first to Empire/Cleon, which are one and the same at his point.  so it would make sense she would put the good of original "empire/cleon" over an imperfect clone.  but she was obviously very upset and conflicted by this decision, which was shown in her final scene tearing her face off.  will this cause some internal breakdown for her?  again, we'll see what 138 years has caused.  

I wonder though if Day was just mentally torturing the girl, or if he really did kill her entire family line, people she knew and their entire families?  we have no way of knowing, but it sure had an effect on her as she clearly believed he would do such a thing.  and he may have, or he may not have.

I don't know what Gaal expected to see when she returned to Synnax after 138 years.  of course the water had risen, and not only her family, but her entire village was gone.  did the village relocate?  maybe.  I don't think that was her house, per se, I thought it was probably the village's main meeting place, probably the church.  and I'm not surprised Salvor made it there first.  her ship probably did have faster travel capability than Gaal's' cryo pod (and love all the accoutrements that came with it.  How convenient! - but maybe its some device that molds itself to what the operator, Gaal, has subconsciously already indicated she will probably need) and clearly Salvor was in a similar cryopod that landed on the planet (but didn't open - by design perhaps - programed to wait until someone arrived) because she was looking for Gaal, so natural that she would end up on Gaal's home planet.  maybe her ship was able to discern that Syntax was Gaal's most likely goal, and whatever happened to the ship required Gaal to also use a cryopod.   

 

I have no real familiarity with the original story to opine on the adaption 'per se,' but i like how the writers have figured out how to keep the main characters in the story despite the time jumps.  

 

 

 

[Zonk]

4 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Hari thought it would be Gaal opening his vault.

Holo Hari on the ship to Helicon a few episodes ago revealed that he had no idea that Gaal could see the future or was special in that way.

Holo Hari on Terminus didn't seem very surprised that everything went off without a hitch, without Gaal.

Besides so much had to go right for them to get that giant warship to terminus, I think we can safely come back to "Psychohistory is magic".

8 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

And we don't know that the Anacreans and the other race are actually going back and forth to their home planets (which were already decimated by the Empire's attack that Empire probably believes they are no threat individually and doesn't consider they might team up against Empire), as opposed to just moving forward with the people in Terminus and building only there.  

Hari's plan called for the resources of their planets. They are going to build warships. The mini settlement on Terminus can't do that alone. Also they said something about "sticking to the outer reaches of the galaxy to not be noticed", not sticking to terminus.

And as for the Empire not believing them to be a threat. Empire doesn't seem to be stupid enough for that.

Maybe Dusk would be arrogant enough to believe that, but current Day doesn't seem the type. So what is it? Is psychohistory magic and can predict everything or not? Or are they going to write Day out of character next season and show that he really doesn't check up on the planets? Or will they do a 138 year time skip immediatly and just basically reset the empire storyline?

12 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

I admit to being a little confused with the corrupted DNA story, exactly how that occurred. 

It's not confusing, just badly written.

11 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

was it done to the original body?

Body, although they said something different last episode.

12 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

do they actually go to the body to collect more DNA?

Seems like it. Which is the dumbest part about it (but not the only dumb part).

15 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Now, Demerzel's actions are somewhat explained.  she has always said she is loyal first to Empire/Cleon, which are one and the same at his point.  so it would make sense she would put the good of original "empire/cleon" over an imperfect clone.  but she was obviously very upset and conflicted by this decision, which was shown in her final scene tearing her face off.  will this cause some internal breakdown for her?  again, we'll see what 138 years has caused.  

They are somewhat explained, but again very badly. That's how I saw it coming. Just ask yourself "what is the most cliched, boring direction this could go that fits the worst?" and you got what these writers are going for.

It doesn't fit with what she said before. The writers even had to change the wording to somehow cram it in there. She said multiple times before "I'm loyal to Empire", this time she said "I'm loyal to the cleonic line". Not the same thing. That might not make a big difference to a human, but it would mean a world of difference to a robot.

Dawn is also Empire, until Day decides he's not, no matter his DNA.

Also first rule of robotics. It has never been brought up on this show, but if you are adapting an asimov work, you know...

20 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

and clearly Salvor was in a similar cryopod that landed on the planet (but didn't open - by design perhaps - programed to wait until someone arrived) because she was looking for Gaal, so natural that she would end up on Gaal's home planet. 

Why would it not open by design? Other than plot convenience? Salvor had no way of knowing Gaal would show up there a hundred years later.

And yeah, the home planet at least makes a little sense, but Gaals house (or tiny village, whatever)? Buh humbug!

32 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

I have no real familiarity with the original story to opine on the adaption 'per se,' but i like how the writers have figured out how to keep the main characters in the story despite the time jumps.  

I could do without these main characters and if they'd do it, they really could have done it much better.

[Hanahope]

3 hours ago, Zonk said:

Holo Hari on the ship to Helicon a few episodes ago revealed that he had no idea that Gaal could see the future or was special in that way.

True, but he probably programed the vault to react to certain DNA, which only Salvor shared with Gaal.

 

3 hours ago, Zonk said:

Besides so much had to go right for them to get that giant warship to terminus, I think we can safely come back to "Psychohistory is magic".

Sure, but getting the warship to terminus wasn't solely based on Salvor either.  it made it there due to the guy who died navigating it.  it could have been anyone who learned how to get through certain doors/security systems.

3 hours ago, Zonk said:

And as for the Empire not believing them to be a threat. Empire doesn't seem to be stupid enough for that.

there's no evidence Empire ever considered that the other two groups would ever put aside their differences enough to join forces, especially with Hari's foundation group.  Empire probably believed, as one would expect, that the two other groups would continue to blame each other for the attack on the star bridge and never reconcile.  

 

3 hours ago, Zonk said:

Why would it not open by design? Other than plot convenience? Salvor had no way of knowing Gaal would show up there a hundred years later.

maybe I should have said by "programming".  perhaps Salvor programed the cryopod (or asked the ship to) to not open until someone else opened it for her.  and true, she didn't know it would take Gaal 100 years to show up, but even if it was 100 months or 100 days, maybe Salvor didn't want to be awake for all that time, maybe she didn't know whether she'd be able to survive waiting all that time.  maybe they will do a flashback next season and explain it better.

  

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Hanahope

[KarenX]

Plot aside… I thought the scene with Day and the gardener/rebel was beautiful and suspenseful, and it was a perfect touch that her feet dangled in that chair and on that bench. Of course everything everywhere was in ergonomic proportion to Day. They truly have every physical discomfort seen to.

THAT is some world-building.

[gibasi]

23 hours ago, Zonk said:

Also first rule of robotics. It has never been brought up on this show, but if you are adapting an asimov work, you know

This was unforgivable as far as I am concerned. 
I kept checking the time during the episode. Because it seemed like it was at least 2 hours long. So much I didn’t care about. I did appreciate the lengths Day went to exact retribution. Pretty impressive. 

[marinw]

7 hours ago, gibasi said:

I kept checking the time during the episode. Because it seemed like it was at least 2 hours long. So much I didn’t care about. I did appreciate the lengths Day went to exact retribution. Pretty impressive.

Azura's punishment is nighmare fuel. So cruel, even if I question if Day really has the power to track down and kill all those people, or if he was just BSing.  Hope she had something akin to a suicide pill hidden somewhere. 

So there are alien animals? Or gentically altered animals?

Despite my better judgement, I kind of loved the final scene, and now I want season two! Damn you, Apple!

Edited November 21, 2021 by marinw

[ribboninthesky1]

As a non-Asimov reader, I enjoyed the season.  Thankfully for me, several episodes were available by the time I came across the show.  I found the 1st episode really hard to follow, and almost didn't continue.  For me, it didn't get really interesting until around episode 4.  And given how the season ended, I'm certainly interested in the next.  

During the previous episode and particularly after the garden scene with Day and Azura, I wondered how anyone would have gotten access to corrupt Empire DNA.  When Demerzel killed whiny Dawn, it occurred to me that she's probably the only one who could have done it without detection.  The question is when. They didn't confirm whether Dusk's DNA was modified in this episode.  Maybe we'll find out next season. 

After all she's seen, maybe it came to her to try and give the Empire a soul, some humanity, some compassion.  And yet the callous cruelty inherent in Cleon's clones persists.  I'm not yet sure she's part of a wider conspiracy, although it is certainly possible.  She would be the ultimate mole.  Day authorized the murder of some 1500 people to kill Azura's legacy, and I thought his actions were as much to quell any further uprising as it was to torture Azura.  If it is Demerzel, his actions would be ultimately futile and that's even not counting the rebellion that presumably grows on Terminus. 

I think Hari and Empire are two sides of the same coin, seeing people as disposable chess pieces.    

  

[ferjy]

On 11/19/2021 at 5:10 AM, Zonk said:

And after a few exposition dumps hari fucks right back off into the vault?! What the actual fuck?! I guess there is a massive timejump anyway, but the writers better get him out of there for next season the moment that episode starts or I am out of here. Enough is enough.

I threw in a few more f’s at that. I started watching The Expanse when it came out because Jared Harris was in it. It ended up a fantasy series. I began watching The Foundation for the same reason, but after a promising first episode, what a disappointment it turned out to be. 

 

[ferjy]

2 hours ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

And yet the callous cruelty inherent in Cleon's clones persists. 

The sentence Day handed down to Azura was horrific. When he took her to the garden I thought he was going to banish her to a mystical garden to live with flawed Dawn so he would have his happily ever after. Did I ever read that wrong!

 

[ferjy]

On 11/19/2021 at 5:10 AM, Zonk said:

He is the only interesting and relateable character in this whole show (well and Demerzel, maybe).

Demerzel was the most interesting to me. I found she had more soul than the humans and I liked every scene she was in. The actress was very good in the part. She shone no matter who she was acting opposite. I’d watch a spin-off with Demerzel. At the very least, she could host a fashion show so we could see her in a different dress, stiff elbows and all! 

 

[marinw]

So I'm still not sure sure if Day actually did kill all those people. On one hand, he really is that vengefull and cruel. One the other hand, it's bad governing. Some of those people would have important roles keeping Trantor running, such as it is. At the very least The Palace gardens are going to look like hell in a couple of years if Day killed all the gardeners who knew Azura and someone needs to train/recruit new gardeners from literally outside of Azura's orbit. Unless Dusk wants to putter around in the gardens instead of at the mural.

I REALLY need to stop thinking about what Day said he was going to do to Azura. My wish is that she is somehow able to off herself before the guards get her or that she won't survive long in those conditions or if some brave person on the inside rescues her. NO ONE deserves that.

As for poor Dawn, why would a freshly-decanted Dawn be any more "Pure" than the one he's replaceing? Also, talking about genetic purity makes me feel kind of gross.🤢

Edited November 21, 2021 by marinw

[marinw]

One more thing: The three groups on Terminus would not have made peace with each other if Phara was still alive. So how would Holo Hari know that this is what would happen?

[Melina22]

5 hours ago, marinw said:

I REALLY need to stop thinking about what Day said he was going to do to Azura. My wish is that she is somehow able to off herself before the guards get her or that she won't survive long in those conditions or if some brave person on the inside rescues her. NO ONE deserves that.

For once I came here to read the comments before watching the episode. Now I'm not sure I even want to watch it. Just reading about it is disturbing. Maybe I'll just go watch people get spaced or attacked by protomolecule on The Expanse. It seems cheery by comparison. 😒

ETA I should note that the comments here prompted me to look further online for details about what happened to Azura, and now I can't get it out of my head even though I didn't even watch! What a nightmare. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Melina22

[pezgirl7]

8 hours ago, marinw said:

As for poor Dawn, why would a freshly-decanted Dawn be any more "Pure" than the one he's replaceing?

Because the new Dawn was supposed to be a genetic copy of Cleon I, but then they found out that wasn't the case. Too bad for Dawn that they found out that info just a little too late. Is Demerzel going to want to kill Day and Dusk now, since they've both been genetically modified? I wonder if we'll ever find out, due to the time jump in season 2. There are definitely a few of characters I am going to miss.

I really enjoyed season 1. I went into it knowing nothing about the source material, so I had no expectations.

[marinw]

On a more positive note, that was a very cool boat Gaal happened to have in her magic cyro pod. That thing is a TARDIS.

 

[Glade]

I kept thinking the Gardener turned revolutionary could have jumped into the pond and breathed in water/tried to off herself the minute Day left her sitting there alone.  It was brutal, but I was afraid for a second it would be more sadistic, like her memory would be wiped and she'd be sex-trafficked.  It will be interesting to see how the differing generations of Cleons play out.

I do wish that they replaced the apparently indestructible/invisible space-shuttle crypods with something less easy/more interesting and world-specific as a means of taking Gal and Salvor into the future and having them meet up.  Overall I liked season 1 enough to look forward to season 2.   And while I might hope it's a bit better in some areas, I don't like the toxic responses that this show and ST: DISCO tend to get. I don't care about 'hardness,' and I will never watch the expanse after seeing conservatives praising it all over the internet because it keeps the minorities they feel threatened by silent and in the background, 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Glade

[AnimeMania]

2 hours ago, marinw said:

On a more positive note, that was a very cool boat Gaal happened to have in her magic cyro pod. That thing is a TARDIS.

 

It was the exact same size and shape as her cyropod, she could have just pulled out her magic oars and used the cyropod as the boat.

[Mrs. Stanwyck]

On 11/19/2021 at 11:26 AM, Hanahope said:

I do agree that if Terminus is a relatively short jump for the Empire, there's no reason why they wouldn't go check it out "just to be sure."  but maybe Hari thought that Empire would actually be fine with Terminus blowing up and so not bother.

I feel like a few episodes back, Day or Dusk brought up Hari and the other asked why even think about him anymore - he was long dead and I think they implied his followers were no threat without him.  Knowing he was dead long before they made it to Terminus, I can see why they may not be too worried about them or even check to make sure the group was wiped out. 

Did I miss it, or did we ever figure out why first Holo-Hari and Raach were supposed to go to Hari's home world?  Are there consequences to Hari's plan since Raach isn't going to make it there?

Does the 138 year time jump mean we get new characters next season?  I guess we keep Gaal, Salvor, Lee Pace, Demerzel and Holo-Hari but won't everyone else have to be new?  

[Zonk]

On 11/19/2021 at 9:38 PM, Hanahope said:

True, but he probably programed the vault to react to certain DNA, which only Salvor shared with Gaal.

He didn't. He programmed it to open once Anacrians show up. He said so himself.

On 11/19/2021 at 9:38 PM, Hanahope said:

Sure, but getting the warship to terminus wasn't solely based on Salvor either.  it made it there due to the guy who died navigating it.  it could have been anyone who learned how to get through certain doors/security systems.

It kinda was solely based on her and even with her it was a longshot. Either psychohistory is magic or this isn't predictable, is the point.

On 11/19/2021 at 9:38 PM, Hanahope said:

there's no evidence Empire ever considered that the other two groups would ever put aside their differences enough to join forces, especially with Hari's foundation group.  Empire probably believed, as one would expect, that the two other groups would continue to blame each other for the attack on the star bridge and never reconcile.  

There is Evidence that Empire isn't a dumbass. Surely he has heard of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

It's nice that you are enjoying this show despite it's massive flaws, but those are some pretty heavy acrobatics you are doing there to defend the indefensible.

On 11/21/2021 at 6:53 PM, marinw said:

One more thing: The three groups on Terminus would not have made peace with each other if Phara was still alive. So how would Holo Hari know that this is what would happen?

It comes back to psychohistory being magic.

22 hours ago, Melina22 said:

For once I came here to read the comments before watching the episode. Now I'm not sure I even want to watch it. Just reading about it is disturbing. Maybe I'll just go watch people get spaced or attacked by protomolecule on The Expanse. It seems cheery by comparison. 😒

Actually, that scene was probably the best one in the episode. You don't see anything. He just says what he's doing or going to do. It's also not quite clear if he really did half the things he said. It's kinda neat in that way.

18 hours ago, pezgirl7 said:

I really enjoyed season 1. I went into it knowing nothing about the source material, so I had no expectations.

So did I and I still thought it was horrible for the most part. But ymmv of course.

14 hours ago, Glade said:

I kept thinking the Gardener turned revolutionary could have jumped into the pond and breathed in water/tried to off herself the minute Day left her sitting there alone.  It was brutal, but I was afraid for a second it would be more sadistic, like her memory would be wiped and she'd be sex-trafficked.  It will be interesting to see how the differing generations of Cleons play out.

Tbh getting your memory wiped and sex trafficed seems like a tropical vacation in comparison to what Day said he was going to do to her.

1 hour ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:

I feel like a few episodes back, Day or Dusk brought up Hari and the other asked why even think about him anymore - he was long dead and I think they implied his followers were no threat without him.  Knowing he was dead long before they made it to Terminus, I can see why they may not be too worried about them or even check to make sure the group was wiped out. 

But they even talked about him in this very episode. Clearly he is still very much on their mind. If they had completely forgotten about him, I could buy it, but it's somebody who they talk about all the time and they won't even send one ship?

1 hour ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:

Did I miss it, or did we ever figure out why first Holo-Hari and Raach were supposed to go to Hari's home world?  Are there consequences to Hari's plan since Raach isn't going to make it there?

Hari wants to build a second foundation there, one that works (more?) in the shadows. The explaination was that the first foundation should be the public front and the one on Helicon in the shadows, but I guess that went out of the window with the season finale, so no idea what the second foundation is supposed to be good for.

1 hour ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:

Does the 138 year time jump mean we get new characters next season?  I guess we keep Gaal, Salvor, Lee Pace, Demerzel and Holo-Hari but won't everyone else have to be new?  

I mean, who else is there, really?

[Melina22]

38 minutes ago, Zonk said:

Tbh getting your memory wiped and sex trafficed seems like a tropical vacation in comparison to what Day said he was going to do to her.

This is exactly what I thought when I read this comment. I actually woke up in the middle of the night last night, thinking about Azura's punishment. It seems to be hitting some very specific phobia buttons for me. I had to yell at myself, "It's fiction!" 😁

I read an interview yesterday about Foundation and how it was supposed to stretch over 8 seasons, and I was sad that I wasn't happier at the prospect. I'll probably give it at least one more season, though, if only because I enjoy the production values. And because I'm an optomist. 

[AnimeMania]

47 minutes ago, Zonk said:

1 hour ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:

Does the 138 year time jump mean we get new characters next season?  I guess we keep Gaal, Salvor, Lee Pace, Demerzel and Holo-Hari but won't everyone else have to be new?  

I mean, who else is there, really?

My favorite character is the Shadowmaster.

[xaxat]

47 minutes ago, Zonk said:

It comes back to psychohistory being magic.

That, I think, is the biggest problem with this adaptation. The book concept of psychohistory is not magic. The idea that the behavior of large numbers of people can be used to to predict actions in the future was not only a cool concept when mainframe computers were first being developed, it's became a pillar for the development of algorithms used by companies like Netflix, Google and Amazon.

I think the reason it feels more like magic on the show is that it introduced several individuals (Hari, Salvor, Gaal) who shape the future. Pretty much eliminating the idea of predicting the future based on the actions of large groups.

Spoiler

Feel free to correct me, it's been a long time since I read the original trilogy, but I think there was only one person with unique powers, The Mule. And his ability was crucial to the books, and almost broke the idea of psychohistory.

 

[edhopper]

So what's the plan Gael? Go back to the planet that hates you a hundred years after everyone you knew was dead, land in the middle of nowhere, and hope there is something there. Oh yes, your planet was also dying from climate change. You were suppose to be the smart one.

I shan't return for Second Foundation.

[marinw]

One more question: Dawn's replacement in the tank has all of the now-deceased Dawn's Memories. So will Demerzel edit out the past few months of memories, including Dawn's affair with Azura?

Edited November 28, 2021 by marinw

[MissLucas]

Well, that was a mess. A beautiful mess but still a mess. 

Good thing the Expanse is coming back in a couple of days. 

[TV Anonymous]

On 11/22/2021 at 2:57 PM, Melina22 said:

This is exactly what I thought when I read this comment. I actually woke up in the middle of the night last night, thinking about Azura's punishment. It seems to be hitting some very specific phobia buttons for me. I had to yell at myself, "It's fiction!" 😁

 

As far as fictional non-capital (towards the punished) punishment goes, this is as cruel as it goes. I even argue that this is crueler than Cersei Lannister forces Ellaria Sand to watch Tyene dies and her corpse rots away, without being able to touch her.

[Melina22]

1 minute ago, TV Anonymous said:

even argue that this is crueler than Cersei Lannister forces Ellaria Sand to watch Tyene dies and her corpse rots away, without being able to touch her.

And this is one of the reasons I couldn't watch GoT. 😬

[Ottis]

On 11/20/2021 at 8:39 PM, ribboninthesky1 said:

As a non-Asimov reader, I enjoyed the season.  Thankfully for me, several episodes were available by the time I came across the show.  I found the 1st episode really hard to follow, and almost didn't continue.  For me, it didn't get really interesting until around episode 4.  And given how the season ended, I'm certainly interested in the next.  

I read Asimov, decades ago, but I don't hold the show to that standard. And I (eventually) enjoyed it as well. Some parts were very slow, but in the end a number of threads came together. And I liked the basic archetypes, i.e. the all-knowing but doomed Empire (and its vengeance, yikes), the agents of change who don't even understand themselves, the religious fanatics (women again, like Dune, hmmm), etc. 

I try not to let esoteric issues get in the way of enjoying Foundation. I could puzzle over the circumstances that would suddenly kill more than 1,000 people, who must have been in different settings of their lives and who either were seen die, discovered dead or disappeared, and no one anywhere would wonder what happened to any of those individuals. The implications are many (is Empire really, really good at making that many deaths look like accidents? Do so many people disappear that way, and Empire is suspected, that populaces everywhere are terrified to ask why? Does Empire just snatch people off the streets? etc.). 

I felt the dread of the "different" Dawn, and of the woman rebel. I also felt the fear and discomfort of the "infallible" Empire at its end and, later, at its imperfection. When the robot guessed that Day made up the whole religious vision thing, I was disheartened at his manipulation and apparent constant focus on his own genetic success after what briefly appeared to be evolution. I cared about some of what happened on the screen, which is rare on TV these days. 

I didn't understand why Gaal would think anyone would be around on her home planet years later, given she was the one who warned of coming environmental catastrophe. I guess it didn't matter, since she found her daughter (and I don't quite follow that, but OK). The Huntress was an impressive, hate-filled character. 

I'll watch season 2, for sure.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Ottis