S04.E05: This Be the Verse

[secnarf]

Quote

Dr. Fuentes continues in her quest to remake the hospital in her vision. Max goes the extra mile to help a patient in need. Dr. Sharpe and Iggy find themselves at odds over a serious issue. Reynolds discovers the importance of personal obligations.

Original air date: Oct 19 2021

[yourdreamer]

Wrong thread!

Glad to see Bloom’s mom come back; always enjoy Gina G. 
 

Didn’t care about Floyd’s storyline; ready for Max and/or Helen to just move. Or not. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by yourdreamer

[LexieLily]

Uh, didn't Lyn say last week that her husband needed to know about her/Floyd now? So what was with the "Reynolds telling Lyn they need to tell her husband the truth' this episode? I'm still thinking this is less of an open marriage and more of an affair, tbh.

[Cloud9Shopper]

This show is starting to lose me, and I’ll probably check out in a few weeks unless it gets dramatically better.

I was hoping Floyd would be pulled off the surgery as a means of earning a “consequences of my actions” trophy. And he and his mediocre lover still didn’t tell her husband? After all that? Where is this guy? He is so dense. 

The crazy mother and addict daughter trope has already been done on ER. Yawn. Pretty sure embarrassing your girlfriend at work and always arguing with her in open hallways (not to mention changing schedules around so she can work with you) isn’t part of the NA program, Lauren.  Also, I wonder if the bribe thing will ever be picked back up or if it will be ignored like Max’s custody battle. (I predict if the bribe does come back up that Fuentes will discover it somehow.) 
 

Helen looked pissed at Max on the roof. I hope they talk it out and she can at least understand he just got heated with Ice Queen Fuentes.

The Helen/Iggy fight was so random. I would’ve been invested in it if we’d seen the patient last season or even earlier this season. Picking it up in the middle of Helen’s testimony made no sense.

Just keep Helen and Max at NA already. It’s clear they’re either not going to go or they won’t last over there for more than a minute. 

The promos we get for next week are seriously terrible. I like Dr. Wilder, but that was the whole promo? 

 

 

[LittleIggy]

Helen acted as if Iggy’s expert opinion testimony was a personal affront to her. She was very unprofessional. As was Bloom (as usual). Gina Gershon looks great. 
I liked how the young official from the Myanmar consulate told Max that just because Max couldn’t see the gun pointing at his (the official’s) head didn’t mean it wasn’t there. 

[babyrambo]

Bloom’s storyline was the one I was most invested in this week. But her mother not saying anything about the way she treated Lauren as a kid was strange. She wasn’t exactly a model parent. Pain or not, parents have an obligation to their kids. Lauren was definately acting out but based on her history with her mother, I didn’t fault her for it. I thought Leyla could have been a bit more compassionate towards her, but I like that she called her out on her behaviour and that she doesn’t let Bloom walk all over her. Lauren’s been really over involved in her girlfriends affairs these past couple of weeks and sometimes she catches herself before going overboard, like last week, but not always. That bribe is going to hit their relationship like a ton of bricks and I like them together because she calms Bloom a lot, but I don’t think they will make it. 
 

Helen was the second most interesting and only just. I had little care for the patient and really only cared about her personal plot. Iggy was annoying, but I liked that he helped her unlock the memory. 
 

Max was too much, as usual and Floyd’s plot was a waste of time. I don’t care about his wife-friend and the more they oretend it’s interesting, the more they lose me. They are good actors but oh so bland together and I use their scenes to grab snacks. It might be Floyd though, he’s been a dullard in every single relationship, and maybe he should have left with Evie to San Francisco. 
 

Max and Helen need to get and go to London already. I don’t care for them together. The yearning was fantastic but this relationship is dry. 
 

They might need some fresh blood on this show.  

 

[LittlePeas3]

omg, if I had had a drink when I saw the NAH, I think I would have spat it out!  It was priceless and probably my only highlight of the episode.  I thought Max and Helen were going to raise hell in their last 6  weeks.  They didn't do anything!  Why, oh why, did they get my hopes up?  No one else has excited me on this show this season.  It was all I was holding on to.  

Such a poor episode.  

[judyri]

And i don't understand how endometriosis leads to a live of alcoholism and drug addiction. Self medicating?  I've known many women who suffered that and led a clean life.  And shouldn't her mother have gone through menopause already? Or is this an after-effect? Did not really explain the medicine really well here, in my opinion.  Not that I expect this show to make much sense. I think I'm done, don't really care about any of the characters any more.

[SunnyBeBe]

I’m really losing interest. Apparently, they are following many other shows who just give up before it’s cancelled.  It’s not that difficult to be creative for professional writers, is it?  Isn’t that why they have these positions?   What’s the appeal to make the viewer detest a character?  I don’t understand it.  
 

I actually missed a few parts, due to disinterest, but I didn’t realize endometriosis was such a rare and illusive disease.  Bloom is too annoying to watch.  The hospital affair involving Floyd…isn’t interesting to me.  Helen attacking Iggy for being a professional was so infuriating. Glad he proved her wrong.  
 

Well, I guess I’ll try again next week.  I have an idea. TPTB should get rid of the writers and apply that money to hire some new cast members to create some interest in the show.  Perhaps, they should bring in George Clooney to replace Max and Julianna Margulies to replace Helen.  🤣 They may be nearing retirement age, but it might be amusing to see them together on a medical show.  

[Cloud9Shopper]

27 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 

Well, I guess I’ll try again next week.  I have an idea. TPTB should get rid of the writers and apply that money to hire some new cast members to create some interest in the show.  Perhaps, they should bring in George Clooney to replace Max and Julianna Margulies to replace Helen.  🤣 They may be nearing retirement age, but it might be amusing to see them together on a medical show.  

I would support transplanting Doug and Carol from Seattle to save New Amsterdam. Maybe they could even get college-aged Tess and Kate to appear. 

I really feel like the writers who ruined late seasons ER somehow got their hands on this because it feels similar to how I felt while slogging through my rewatch of that around S12-S14. 
 

I’m not sure if Wilder’s return next week will be enough to renew my interest. It depends what goes on around that. 

[HerkyJerky]

I, for one, LOVED this episode. I found the theme of memory shaping your past & determining your future (but only if you let it) very interesting & intriguing.

[cathmed]

11 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Helen looked pissed at Max on the roof. I hope they talk it out and she can at least understand he just got heated with Ice Queen Fuentes.

The Helen/Iggy fight was so random. I would’ve been invested in it if we’d seen the patient last season or even earlier this season. Picking it up in the middle of Helen’s testimony made no sense.

Just keep Helen and Max at NA already. It’s clear they’re either not going to go or they won’t last over there for more than a minute. 

The promos we get for next week are seriously terrible. I like Dr. Wilder, but that was the whole promo? 

Agree with all your bolded statements and adding my ramblings two cents about this episode as well.

Flyn - simply don't care about them.  It appears yet another insufferable week before they finally tell Claude🙄😤.  Yeah, you'd think there might have been some consequences about pulling him from surgery but guess we're too smart for the writers!  Fuentes' banal reasoning was just silly.

Lauren finally exhibited some compassion for her mom, after 30 years of suffering--and being misdiagnosed--with endometriosis.

Iggy/Helen - OK, guess he helped her unlock the "mystery" BUT resolving repressed/recovered memories (from 20+ years) in a 5-10 minute conversation, after his weather research and the broken beads, seemed unrealistic and a bit outrageous.  Was anyone else surprised that it was Helen's mother and not father who harbored long-standing feelings of anger/resentment?  We saw a glimpse of her "character'  when Helen visited London and she was vehemently adamant of having any contact with Mina & still resented the husband/father for leaving.  I wonder if this is all the backstory we'll get on Helen??  Will Helen still leave for London to "resolve issues"?

Max - Loved his impassioned speech for the patients (they and their care matter) and how much the hospital means to him & reminding Fuentes of that--although SHE DOESN'T CARE!  I've already grown tired of this tedious ping-pong fight between them.

Sharpwin - Did Helen hear the entire conversation between Max and Fuentes or did she just hear the last part of him saying that "maybe he will stay"?   What was Helen on her way to the roof to tell Max?:  How important he was/is to her? that she can trust him and help her through this? that she knows he will NOT leave her? that she loves him with all her being?  That she has decided NOT to go to London after her realization of the actual relationship between her parents and, especially, her mother?   For me, it is IMPERATIVE that Sharpwin talk about what she heard before it festers and bubbles into another "obstacle" for them.   Who knows where the writers will take us as they seem to like angst and drama for these two (no other couple seems to have this issue - why is that!)

So once again, we have tension between Sharpwin with them at cross purposes which I just abhor.  I saw no indication of a Sharpwin "discussion" in next week's previews/episode.  I, too, like the new doctor but really - this is what we get for next week?

The writers are making Sharpwin messier than it has to be, imo.  I don't see this as drama but lazy writing.  Has the Moonlighting Curse struck?

 

 

.

[cathmed]

4 hours ago, LittlePeas3 said:

I thought Max and Helen were going to raise hell in their last 6  weeks.

Yeah, I wondered about that as well.  What happened to "getting into good trouble & how much trouble"?  It appears Max and Helen are only in trouble with each other!!   From the promo/preview for next week, I don't see that. 

And as another poster mentioned - what about Lauren's bribe; has that been forgotten or will Fuentes stumble upon that?  The writers seems to have forgotten what they wrote from week to week--let alone over the last 3 seasons!  If you rewatch S1, the foundation was laid for everything that is being portrayed now or will be.  However, imo, they are doing a poor job synthesizing it together.😢

[LittleIggy]

Chicago Med has been better this season with two very annoying characters leaving, two new characters added, better writing, and the addition of Steven Weber. Too bad NA is going in the opposite direction.

5 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by LittleIggy

[cathmed]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I’m really losing interest. Apparently, they are following many other shows who just give up before it’s cancelled.  It’s not that difficult to be creative for professional writers, is it?  Isn’t that why they have these positions?   What’s the appeal to make the viewer detest a character?  I don’t understand it.  

I'm baffled as to what transpired over the summer (after S3 ended).  I wonder if they do have new writers as something has been off since this season began, imo.   You, Cloud9Shopper and I seem to have that same viewpoint - something is simply not working this season, and they better fix it or they will lose viewers.   I thoroughly enjoyed S1-3 and realize they've been renewed through S5. But if this doesn't turn around quickly, they'll lose this viewers/ratings--no matter how much I or others like Sharpwin (and Ryan/Freema).  I mentioned above:  is this the Moonlighting Curser or lazy writing?  Now that they've gotten them together, do they really not know what to do with them--especially after fans have waited for 3 years??!!!

[Madding crowd]

I found Iggy very annoying here. Repressed memories may not be legally allowed but trying to prove Helen was wrong about her memories was just not his place . I remember things from my childhood but I can’t be sure of the exact day or weather. Maybe Helen got the day wrong or how the beads broke wrong. Remembering an entire rape and having it be imaginary is a whole different thing. In Helen’s case it wasn’t a false memory as much as not clearly remembering something that happened when she was a small child. What was his explanation for the rape memory? Maybe they were having tea and she falsely thought it was rape?

I hate the new  medical director and there was no real reason to pull Floyd off of that surgery. In real life you would have your best surgeon on this case not give it to a general surgeon as some kind of lesson. Also think a chief of surgery would be appointed and make that decision. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Madding crowd

[ams1001]

25 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I hate the new  medical director and there was no real reason to pull Floyd off of that surgery. In real life you would have your best surgeon on this case not give it to a general surgeon as some kind of lesson. Also think a chief of surgery would be appointed and make that decision. 

So it's like the opposite of Grey's Anatomy where the Chief of Surgery seems to run the entire hospital?

[txhorns79]

Hey Max, if you could look up the inscription on that item, the woman claiming it as her own could look up the inscription on that item.  Just saying, there are reasons that a person looking to have art that was looted returned often needs to show actual proof of past ownership. 

I also don't believe for a moment a prosecutor is going to bring a criminal charge against someone solely based on a recovered memory.  There have been questions raised about the accuracy of recovered memories for a long time.  I kind of wanted Iggy to read Helen the riot act given what a giant baby she was being over the whole thing.  I mean, she really had no idea what she was talking about, but she was certain she knew better than someone who actually would have been familiar with the issue. 

[catrice2]

two weeks in a row I had no interest in even hate watching.  Thanks for the recaps. 

[bros402]

It's time for...

WHO IS THE WORST DOCTOR

i hope this episode doesn't bore me as much as the rest of the season to date

 

i don't think Max is actually going to submit to Fuentes/accept changes she does. He'll last 5 minutes into the episode, tops.

 

why would anyone put a NAH sign on the hospital

 

wait how did that sign get made and installed so quickly

 

why would they paint the floor at the start of the day - i imagine they would put something around it to make sure they don't paint parts of the floor that are not intended to be painted

 

why would a hospital get reviews in the newspaper, seriously. I've been to MSK in Manhattan - they have a bunch of art around, some of the art is just annoying and dizzying.

ok, now we're looking at reynolds, um this patient would be using a pen right away, I don't know what surgery she had - but I imagine if she couldn't use a pen before, she would be seeing an OT or PT.

wow Reynolds, way to be rude to your patient, she clearly had a question - I bet this is gonna come back to bite him in the ass later in the episode

 

that artificial heart looks steampunk as hell

 

um, I am pretty sure it is not legal to donate to get your hospital as a site for a trial

 

oh hey it's bloom's mom again

 

ooh i wonder if this is gonna be that bloom doesn't believe her mom and her mom ends up dying/having severe medical issues because she isn't lying, or someone gives in and gives her pills and she is pill seeking

 

oh fun Sharpe in court

 

um lawyer you can't have an oncologist be an expert witness on why a memory was triggered, you need a psychiatrist for that (Although I think she is just acting as a regular witness, not as a expert witness in her capacity as an oncologist)

 

oh hey look the defense has Iggy, a psychiatrist, who can testify about that

 

and of course super max will be the right one in the argument with Fuentes, when the answer actually lies in the middle for once

 

um reynolds if you didn't want to get pulled from the surgery you should've told him weeks ago you were sleeping with his wife

 

i mean Bloom you can't kick her out, you need to at least get something in her file like your girlfrirend is telling you

 

and yeah it can't just be given away Max, pretty sure that has to go through the courts

 

so uhhh in this universe there's a Manhattan Museum of Arts - I am guessing it is our Metropolitan Museum of Arts

 

um, iggy that chair thing all depends on a person's recall

 

hey defense lawyer, Iggy is a doctor, not a lawyer or judge, he can't speculate as to whether or not he would send someone to jail based on a memory

 

sharpe, why are you getting mad, iggy is literally doing his job as an expert witness

 

ha ha reynolds dealing with that patient the way you did DID bite you in the ass, but uhhh he's a surgeon he isn't an internal medicine doctor, he just slices and dices

 

why would they page Reynolds for a non emergency

 

um max why are you meeting with this museum head in the hallway and VIOLATING HIPAA

 

um max you can't just hand him a piece of paper and claim it is an NDA, he'll need lawyers to review it, lawyers to revise it, it'll be months

 

sharpe, do not be pissy at Iggy for doing his job

 

um sharpe I would not be surprised if you mom told you that story many times and you formed a picture of it in your head

 

Bloom you don't just walk into a room and take out a patient's IV and how did she diagnose lyme on the basis of splenomegaly, you need blood tests to confirm that

 

um bloom I am pretty sure prescribing pills like that is illegal, or at least ill advised/worthy of a complaint to the medical board

 

of course there's bureaucracy involved in getting the harp

 

um you think the patient would've started out with "hey my adenoids are swollen" during the follow up

 

bloom's girlfriend, you are not a radiologist, a radiologist needs to review the ultrasound

 

a cyst above the spleen...how the hell are you diagnosing endometriosis just looking at a cyst

 

um sharpe, if he looked up the weather in a legitimate source, then that is the truth

 

oh look iggy harassing a colleague is making her remember

 

max you can't guarantee she would not need another surgery

 

blah blah blah reynolds caring about patients and going to talk to her boss

 

oh is sharpe going to back out of the move because now she remembers that stuff about her parents separating

 

yes max you have some of a point - it should be more inclusive, and Fuentes removing a COVID Memorial just seems ill advised

 

and of course Sharpe comes in right when you say you might not leave

 

I think the worst doctor of the episode might be Bloom, for letting her own bias impact the treatment of a patient.

 

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Hey Max, if you could look up the inscription on that item, the woman claiming it as her own could look up the inscription on that item.  Just saying, there are reasons that a person looking to have art that was looted returned often needs to show actual proof of past ownership. 

I also don't believe for a moment a prosecutor is going to bring a criminal charge against someone solely based on a recovered memory.  There have been questions raised about the accuracy of recovered memories for a long time.  I kind of wanted Iggy to read Helen the riot act given what a giant baby she was being over the whole thing.  I mean, she really had no idea what she was talking about, but she was certain she knew better than someone who actually would have been familiar with the issue. 

I believe Max had it on something the museum gave Fuentes

[circumvent]

21 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I found Iggy very annoying here. Repressed memories may not be legally allowed but trying to prove Helen was wrong about her memories was just not his place . I remember things from my childhood but I can’t be sure of the exact day or weather.

I'm with you. He was arrogant and trying to show how "fair and mature" his thought process was. It was just annoying. 

I sometimes remember snippets of things that happened to me and that caused real trauma, things that I mention to family members, things that they remember, but some of the details are always different. No memory is perfect and Iggy proved absolutely nothing with his weather comment, and threw the "maybe it wasn't in London", just to say that "It was dry everywhere" just to be able to say that he was "more right". It is called gaslighting. Any armchair therapist knows that this is not how you work with someone who may or may not be uncovering traumatic memories. You don't tell them how things happened (or didn't). It is their memory - but I stopped paying attention to their conversation after his weather "debunking")

13 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I also don't believe for a moment a prosecutor is going to bring a criminal charge against someone solely based on a recovered memory.  There have been questions raised about the accuracy of recovered memories for a long time.  I kind of wanted Iggy to read Helen the riot act given what a giant baby she was being over the whole thing.  I mean, she really had no idea what she was talking about, but she was certain she knew better than someone who actually would have been familiar with the issue.

I agree with the premise of a trial based solely on something that it is so hard to prove, unless it is to cast doubt on the jury and create a hung jury) but the way Iggy went after Helen to 'splain to her why she was so wrong was arrogant. 

Edited October 21, 2021 by circumvent
because trial and trail are not the same thing

[cathmed]

19 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I found Iggy very annoying here. Repressed memories may not be legally allowed but trying to prove Helen was wrong about her memories was just not his place . I remember things from my childhood but I can’t be sure of the exact day or weather. Maybe Helen got the day wrong or how the beads broke wrong. Remembering an entire rape and having it be imaginary is a whole different thing. In Helen’s case it wasn’t a false memory as much as not clearly remembering something that happened when she was a small child.

I think this episode was introducing and  telegraphing what is to come with the London arc and Helen's backstory between her parents and with her dad.  We'll have to wait to see if the writers remember to include this when Sharpwin is in London as, at times, the writers seem to have amnesia when it comes to character development.

[Cloud9Shopper]

7 hours ago, bros402 said:

It's time for...

WHO IS THE WORST DOCTOR

i hope this episode doesn't bore me as much as the rest of the season to date

 

i don't think Max is actually going to submit to Fuentes/accept changes she does. He'll last 5 minutes into the episode, tops.

 

why would anyone put a NAH sign on the hospital

 

wait how did that sign get made and installed so quickly

 

why would they paint the floor at the start of the day - i imagine they would put something around it to make sure they don't paint parts of the floor that are not intended to be painted

 

why would a hospital get reviews in the newspaper, seriously. I've been to MSK in Manhattan - they have a bunch of art around, some of the art is just annoying and dizzying.

ok, now we're looking at reynolds, um this patient would be using a pen right away, I don't know what surgery she had - but I imagine if she couldn't use a pen before, she would be seeing an OT or PT.

wow Reynolds, way to be rude to your patient, she clearly had a question - I bet this is gonna come back to bite him in the ass later in the episode

 

that artificial heart looks steampunk as hell

 

um, I am pretty sure it is not legal to donate to get your hospital as a site for a trial

 

oh hey it's bloom's mom again

 

ooh i wonder if this is gonna be that bloom doesn't believe her mom and her mom ends up dying/having severe medical issues because she isn't lying, or someone gives in and gives her pills and she is pill seeking

 

oh fun Sharpe in court

 

um lawyer you can't have an oncologist be an expert witness on why a memory was triggered, you need a psychiatrist for that (Although I think she is just acting as a regular witness, not as a expert witness in her capacity as an oncologist)

 

oh hey look the defense has Iggy, a psychiatrist, who can testify about that

 

and of course super max will be the right one in the argument with Fuentes, when the answer actually lies in the middle for once

 

um reynolds if you didn't want to get pulled from the surgery you should've told him weeks ago you were sleeping with his wife

 

i mean Bloom you can't kick her out, you need to at least get something in her file like your girlfrirend is telling you

 

and yeah it can't just be given away Max, pretty sure that has to go through the courts

 

so uhhh in this universe there's a Manhattan Museum of Arts - I am guessing it is our Metropolitan Museum of Arts

 

um, iggy that chair thing all depends on a person's recall

 

hey defense lawyer, Iggy is a doctor, not a lawyer or judge, he can't speculate as to whether or not he would send someone to jail based on a memory

 

sharpe, why are you getting mad, iggy is literally doing his job as an expert witness

 

ha ha reynolds dealing with that patient the way you did DID bite you in the ass, but uhhh he's a surgeon he isn't an internal medicine doctor, he just slices and dices

 

why would they page Reynolds for a non emergency

 

um max why are you meeting with this museum head in the hallway and VIOLATING HIPAA

 

um max you can't just hand him a piece of paper and claim it is an NDA, he'll need lawyers to review it, lawyers to revise it, it'll be months

 

sharpe, do not be pissy at Iggy for doing his job

 

um sharpe I would not be surprised if you mom told you that story many times and you formed a picture of it in your head

 

Bloom you don't just walk into a room and take out a patient's IV and how did she diagnose lyme on the basis of splenomegaly, you need blood tests to confirm that

 

um bloom I am pretty sure prescribing pills like that is illegal, or at least ill advised/worthy of a complaint to the medical board

 

of course there's bureaucracy involved in getting the harp

 

um you think the patient would've started out with "hey my adenoids are swollen" during the follow up

 

bloom's girlfriend, you are not a radiologist, a radiologist needs to review the ultrasound

 

a cyst above the spleen...how the hell are you diagnosing endometriosis just looking at a cyst

 

um sharpe, if he looked up the weather in a legitimate source, then that is the truth

 

oh look iggy harassing a colleague is making her remember

 

max you can't guarantee she would not need another surgery

 

blah blah blah reynolds caring about patients and going to talk to her boss

 

oh is sharpe going to back out of the move because now she remembers that stuff about her parents separating

 

yes max you have some of a point - it should be more inclusive, and Fuentes removing a COVID Memorial just seems ill advised

 

and of course Sharpe comes in right when you say you might not leave

 

I think the worst doctor of the episode might be Bloom, for letting her own bias impact the treatment of a patient.

 

I believe Max had it on something the museum gave Fuentes

I love that you do this every week. 

I used to like Bloom, but I’m worried that she’s heading in the direction that everything she’s going to do is going to be excused because she’s an addict/had a bad childhood, like Abby Lockhart 2.0. She certainly has no business being in charge of an ER in a major NYC hospital. I can’t imagine any of this (the way she treats Leyla at work, her inability to cope with the smallest challenge at the hospital) is going to end well for the character. 

I can only deal with “troubled” characters so long and empathize so much before they start to grate on me. Lauren needs to get therapy or work harder on her program because right now, she shouldn’t even be touching my cat. 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Cloud9Shopper

[txhorns79]

4 hours ago, circumvent said:

I agree with the premise of a trail based solely on something that it is so hard to prove, unless it is to cast doubt on the jury and create a hung jury) but the way Iggy went after Helen to 'splain to her why she was so wrong was arrogant. 

I don't know.  Helen was ready to throw away their friendship, and insisted that he was wrong because she had a similar experience to her patient.  I viewed it like: "How might Helen feel if Iggy insisted he knew more than she did about cancer treatment, and cited an anecdote as evidence that he knew more?" 

1 hour ago, cathmed said:

Remembering an entire rape and having it be imaginary is a whole different thing. In Helen’s case it wasn’t a false memory as much as not clearly remembering something that happened when she was a small child.

Iggy's testimony and argument wasn't that the rape could not have happened.  His argument was that recovered memories are inherently unreliable.

I also meant to note that if anyone is a fan of Mad Men, Dr. Reynold's patient was Henry Francis' mother on the show.

[circumvent]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't know.  Helen was ready to throw away their friendship, and insisted that he was wrong because she had a similar experience to her patient.  I viewed it like: "How might Helen feel if Iggy insisted he knew more than she did about cancer treatment, and cited an anecdote as evidence that he knew more?" 

 

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Iggy's testimony and argument wasn't that the rape could not have happened.  His argument was that recovered memories are inherently unreliable.

I agree that Helen wasn't as objective as she should have been as an expert witness (if any expert can ever be objective, since they usually get paid to sound reliable)

I agree with Iggy's testimony. What was annoying, to me, was that he went out of his way to check the weather of 30 years ago, in another country, to prove to Helen that she was wrong, in his opinion - or at least to show her how reasonable he was in casting doubts on memories of trauma and abuse. Not only he went out of his way to check the weather in one place, but he also covered all the possible areas where Helen could have been all those years ago, and presented his whole case to her by "debunking" her memory not once, but twice. He waited for her to say that maybe she was wrong about the place to come with with his "Aha! I checked the weather there too, so you are wrong again". That's gaslighting, when she clearly has some trauma, even if her memories are not as accurate as she believed

[txhorns79]

10 minutes ago, circumvent said:

That's gaslighting, when she clearly has some trauma, even if her memories are not as accurate as she believed

If he was right (and Helen agreed he was right that her initial recollections were wrong), and his intention was not to try and manipulate Helen, how is it gaslighting?   

 

15 minutes ago, circumvent said:

What was annoying, to me, was that he went out of his way to check the weather of 30 years ago, in another country, to prove to Helen that she was wrong, in his opinion - or at least to show her how reasonable he was in casting doubts on memories of trauma and abuse.

It isn't just Iggy's opinion.  The whole idea of recovered memories is very controversial in psychiatry.         

[circumvent]

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

If he was right (and Helen agreed he was right that her initial recollections were wrong), and his intention was not to try and manipulate Helen, how is it gaslighting?   

Because he ignored the trauma, which is real, even if her memories were inaccurate 

 

3 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

It isn't just Iggy's opinion.  The whole idea of recovered memories is very controversial in psychiatry.    

I didn't disagree that recovered memories are controversial. What was his opinion - at that moment - was that Helen had the wrong recollections about everything based on the weather of one day 30 years ago. AT THAT MOMENT being the key here, since he only had what she told him about the rain and that it hadn't rained that day. He didn't use any tools of a therapist to assess the events or unpack the memories. He only looked up old weather reports and came up with a whole theory about her childhood and her trauma

[txhorns79]

30 minutes ago, circumvent said:

Because he ignored the trauma, which is real, even if her memories were inaccurate 

That isn't gaslighting.  Gaslighting is a form of abuse where you try to manipulate someone into questioning their reality.  That isn't what Iggy was doing. 

[circumvent]

25 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

questioning their reality

That's exactly what Iggy was doing. Using her memory, as flawed as it was, to make her change the reason for her trauma - from blaming her father to questioning her mother. Even if it turns out to be true that her father was't the "bad guy" she thought him to be, Iggy just told her what to think, instead of allowing her to get to the conclusions. He did deny her her reality to prove a point in a clumsy way. To me, the worse was the premeditation of him expecting her to say that she mixed up the places, to which he has a comeback. 

 

[txhorns79]

23 minutes ago, circumvent said:

53 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

questioning their reality

That's exactly what Iggy was doing.

 Iggy was not trying to manipulate Helen, nor he was seeking to abuse her in any form.  Questioning her by itself is not gaslighting. 

[circumvent]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

 Iggy was not trying to manipulate Helen, nor he was seeking to abuse her in any form.  Questioning her by itself is not gaslighting. 

I disagree with his methods, and I disagree with your assessment.

[Johnny Dollar]

Iggy - “You can’t unlock memories. That’s not a thing.”

Helen - “Well what about my memory about my father pushing me and breaking my beads?”

Iggy - “Not a thing. Are you sure he wasn’t pulling you towards him when the beads broke?”

Helen - “Oh my God! He was pulling me towards him!  Thanks for unlocking that memory for me.”

Iggy - “Your welcome. What kind of a shrink would I be if I couldn’t help patient unlock repressed memories.”

Me - 😑😑😑

[bros402]

16 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I love that you do this every week. 

I used to like Bloom, but I’m worried that she’s heading in the direction that everything she’s going to do is going to be excused because she’s an addict/had a bad childhood, like Abby Lockhart 2.0. She certainly has no business being in charge of an ER in a major NYC hospital. I can’t imagine any of this (the way she treats Leyla at work, her inability to cope with the smallest challenge at the hospital) is going to end well for the character. 

I can only deal with “troubled” characters so long and empathize so much before they start to grate on me. Lauren needs to get therapy or work harder on her program because right now, she shouldn’t even be touching my cat. 

It's one way to enjoy a show I hate watch, especially once the characters started to get so ridiculous that I was ranking them mentally, so I figured others might enjoy it :P

I also used to like Bloom, sure, she was generic "tough new york woman who is soft underneath" but that worked - once they added the addict and bad childhood angle, it's just sent her on a bad course. Season 1 Bloom, you could see why she was in charge of one of the largest ERs in NYC - now she just seems like an abusive and manipulative department head. She could do with the treatment Reynolds is getting - leave the hospital for a bit, come back to having a lower position than she had. Reynolds not being a department head makes sense, even when his plots don't - he was only the head of cardiothoracic because he was the only doctor left in the department.

I'm guessing Bloom falling off the wagon will be one of the midseason finale cliffhangers - it'll probably be precipitated by either her girlfriend leaving her due to an argument (and the gf would probably come back the next morning, be like "i'm so sor--!" and find her on the floor and have to do medicine on her) or maybe something Bloom/Max related.

She definitely needs to see a therapist - they mentioned her sponsor a few times, but what Bloom needs is a therapist that specializes in substance abuse and she needs one yesterday. Even if it is just Iggy's husband (since he is a therapist, but I don't think we know what kind?) so they can avoid hiring another person.

Honestly, if you had told me last season that this would be my least favorite of the three I watch (The Resident, New Amsterdam, and The Good Doctor) I would be surprised - since The Good Doctor is usually the one that annoys me the most - but NA is just boring this season, not even the patients are memorable, as I am sure you can tell in my worst doctor ever posts. They need to dial back the drama a bit, have at least one patient that is interesting, even if it is just something generic! Scrubs rarely had "SUPER DUPER RARE DISEASE" and they did great with having memorable patients and having good character development.

[Cloud9Shopper]

6 hours ago, bros402 said:

It's one way to enjoy a show I hate watch, especially once the characters started to get so ridiculous that I was ranking them mentally, so I figured others might enjoy it :P

I also used to like Bloom, sure, she was generic "tough new york woman who is soft underneath" but that worked - once they added the addict and bad childhood angle, it's just sent her on a bad course. Season 1 Bloom, you could see why she was in charge of one of the largest ERs in NYC - now she just seems like an abusive and manipulative department head. She could do with the treatment Reynolds is getting - leave the hospital for a bit, come back to having a lower position than she had. Reynolds not being a department head makes sense, even when his plots don't - he was only the head of cardiothoracic because he was the only doctor left in the department.

I'm guessing Bloom falling off the wagon will be one of the midseason finale cliffhangers - it'll probably be precipitated by either her girlfriend leaving her due to an argument (and the gf would probably come back the next morning, be like "i'm so sor--!" and find her on the floor and have to do medicine on her) or maybe something Bloom/Max related.

She definitely needs to see a therapist - they mentioned her sponsor a few times, but what Bloom needs is a therapist that specializes in substance abuse and she needs one yesterday. Even if it is just Iggy's husband (since he is a therapist, but I don't think we know what kind?) so they can avoid hiring another person.

Honestly, if you had told me last season that this would be my least favorite of the three I watch (The Resident, New Amsterdam, and The Good Doctor) I would be surprised - since The Good Doctor is usually the one that annoys me the most - but NA is just boring this season, not even the patients are memorable, as I am sure you can tell in my worst doctor ever posts. They need to dial back the drama a bit, have at least one patient that is interesting, even if it is just something generic! Scrubs rarely had "SUPER DUPER RARE DISEASE" and they did great with having memorable patients and having good character development.

I feel like we’ve been spoiled from the early days of good medical shows like ER and Scrubs. I wasn’t even born in the 70s so I don’t have much desire to go way back and watch St. Elsewhere. I have never seen Grey’s (it just seems dreadful) and I didn’t even survive one season of Chicago Med. I did try a few episodes of The Resident but mostly didn’t get into it although I heard it gets better after a few episodes. 

I knew NA was no ER but I really enjoyed S1 and S2 of it. Running Max off the rails and giving him the exaggerated cause of the week in S3 was a huge mistake. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if Bloom relapses TBH. I don’t necessarily agree that it would be something to do with her and Max, as I don’t think they’ve interacted that much recently. And maybe he’ll actually go to London before 2025 since it seems like they’re dragging this out. It seems inevitable that nearly every TV character addict relapses, especially when they’re like Lauren and still showing destructive behavior patterns. I know that’s how real life is but people also stay sober. (ER had a minor character who was 12 years sober from alcohol so it CAN work, and I think that side of it would be nice to see on TV as well.) 

I do like Floyd other than the stupid decisions he and Lyn are making about their relationship/affair whatever it is. I don’t know why they had him go that course at all. Just seems like a lot of bad character decisions by the writers for unnecessary drama. 

[Merriwind]

Wouldn't a surgery to transplant an artificial heart be planned out to the minute? I can't imagine the lead surgeon could be pulled a matter of hours or minutes from scrubbing in due to an upset supervisor or non-emergency patient follow-up.

[Madding crowd]

Yes a ground breaking surgery would be highly publicized and the surgeon would be selected that had the most experience. There is no way it would be given to a random general surgeon at the last minute to teach a lesson to the intended surgeon. I am assuming Floyd was an assistant surgeon for this but every member of that team would be cherry picked.

[bros402]

17 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I feel like we’ve been spoiled from the early days of good medical shows like ER and Scrubs. I wasn’t even born in the 70s so I don’t have much desire to go way back and watch St. Elsewhere. I have never seen Grey’s (it just seems dreadful) and I didn’t even survive one season of Chicago Med. I did try a few episodes of The Resident but mostly didn’t get into it although I heard it gets better after a few episodes. 

I knew NA was no ER but I really enjoyed S1 and S2 of it. Running Max off the rails and giving him the exaggerated cause of the week in S3 was a huge mistake. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if Bloom relapses TBH. I don’t necessarily agree that it would be something to do with her and Max, as I don’t think they’ve interacted that much recently. And maybe he’ll actually go to London before 2025 since it seems like they’re dragging this out. It seems inevitable that nearly every TV character addict relapses, especially when they’re like Lauren and still showing destructive behavior patterns. I know that’s how real life is but people also stay sober. (ER had a minor character who was 12 years sober from alcohol so it CAN work, and I think that side of it would be nice to see on TV as well.) 

I do like Floyd other than the stupid decisions he and Lyn are making about their relationship/affair whatever it is. I don’t know why they had him go that course at all. Just seems like a lot of bad character decisions by the writers for unnecessary drama. 

With The Resident, it got much better after a bit into the first season, they work on a few characters, make it a bit better. I've never seen Grey's either.

Honestly, with S3 on NA, at least Max having his crusades was entertaining - it was usually driven by a patient or something in the hospital that was most likely interesting.

Yeah, I don't think Max would be the primary cause, but it could be due to a decision Max makes. I'd love if Bloom would stay on the wagon, but she seems like the kind of person who needs to hit rock bottom - like she said her mom was doing.

13 hours ago, Merriwind said:

Wouldn't a surgery to transplant an artificial heart be planned out to the minute? I can't imagine the lead surgeon could be pulled a matter of hours or minutes from scrubbing in due to an upset supervisor or non-emergency patient follow-up.

Yuup - and I imagine they would have backup surgeons ready to step in. I have to imagine their cardiac surgeon (Floyd) would at least be on call.

11 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

Yes a ground breaking surgery would be highly publicized and the surgeon would be selected that had the most experience. There is no way it would be given to a random general surgeon at the last minute to teach a lesson to the intended surgeon. I am assuming Floyd was an assistant surgeon for this but every member of that team would be cherry picked.

Yeah, even if the random general surgeon is the department head, from what we have seen/been told, he isn't a cardiac surgeon. I think they would've mentioned that - this show likes to do stuff like that.

[Jillybean]

In our household we're pretty much feeling the "NAH" when it comes to continuing to watch this show. 

[possibilities]

Why would they tell the husband at work, in the middle of a busy day? That's the kind of thing you discuss at a time when everybody has the time to process it and you do it off the clock, in a formal way. You don't blindside them.

I've been in non-monogamous relationships, and they're based on clear communication and caring about each other's feelings. It takes skill and consideration of the others involved.

--

Bloom's story with her mom illustrates why you arne't supposed to be a doctor for a family member, and probably also not for a friend, either.

---

Iggy browbeating Helen, trying to dismantle her memory to prove his point, was abusive. Whether or not he was right that she was getting all the details right, it was not his place to do that. He was doing it for his own ego, not out of any kind of therapeutic concern, and moreover even if it had been therapeutic concern, she didn't ask him for therapy.

Also, his example in court about "implanting" a memory in the test group is way different as a situation than someone spontaneously remembering something on their own. Brainwashing is different than someone being triggered to release a repressed experience. Also, your mundane memory of a table from 20 years ago is stored in an entirely different place and in a different way than the memory of a significant, charged event. Whether or not memories are accurate, the testimony Iggy gave was not relevant to the situation of the plaintiff in the case at hand.