Book 4: Drums of Autumn

[WatchrTina]

5 minutes ago, Grashka said:

My first reaction to seeing "Claire and Frank meet Bree" pic posted as a pre-Christman treat was a laugh and "Boy, people are going to LOVE it!"

Not gonna lie.  I HATE that photo. Seeing it felt like a punch in the guts.  But I think Tobias is a terrific actor (he broke my heart in S2:E01) so I look forward to seeing what he does with season 3 Frank.

[katville]

I have to admit, I did not like the photo either. I am not on the No Frank No Laoghaire train, but I find this part of the series to be incredibly sad.  

[Nire]

On 1/7/2017 at 5:01 PM, WatchrTina said:

The whole beginning of Book 4 felt slow to me as I listened to it on my drive.  I enjoyed it but it felt slow.  That's actually going to be good news when it comes time to film it.  It means they can cut out quite a bit (which they must do) without losing anything essential.

It took me such a long time to get into book 4.  I'm not sure why exactly but I just didn't feel as drawn in as I did at the start of the other books.  Perhaps because the book picks up where book 3 left off while the first three books start off at different and surprising point.  

I think I'm the odd one out because I really enjoyed Roger and Brianna.  I wanted to bash my head into a wall about all the confusion but I really liked watching their relationship deepen in the begininng.  I think Brianna at Lallybrook might be one of my favorites from the series so far (I just started book 5).  They definitely annoyed me with all the in my opinion forced confusion but overall there were some parts with them that I really enjoyed.  I also loved the slower more domestic pace especially compared to Voyager.  I do think more Fergus would have improved the book. 

[toolazy]

On 4/30/2017 at 6:59 PM, Nire said:

It took me such a long time to get into book 4.  I'm not sure why exactly but I just didn't feel as drawn in as I did at the start of the other books.  Perhaps because the book picks up where book 3 left off while the first three books start off at different and surprising point.  

I think I'm the odd one out because I really enjoyed Roger and Brianna.  I wanted to bash my head into a wall about all the confusion but I really liked watching their relationship deepen in the begininng.  I think Brianna at Lallybrook might be one of my favorites from the series so far (I just started book 5).  They definitely annoyed me with all the in my opinion forced confusion but overall there were some parts with them that I really enjoyed.  I also loved the slower more domestic pace especially compared to Voyager.  I do think more Fergus would have improved the book. 

There are a few - a very few - things I like about this book.  I like Brianna at Lallybroch. I like Brianna with LJG in Cross Creek, and I like Bree meeting Jamie and seeing Jamie again.

And that's about it.  I think this is by far the weakest book just because everyone asks like idiots and Roger pays the price for it. 

[Petunia846]

I don't mind and often really enjoy Bree and Roger's storylines (especially in the last few books), but for some reason I just can't handle their love scenes. :P

[LadyAmalthea]

I'm slowly making my way through the books, and I think DoA is my least favourite so far although I still enjoyed it.  I found it really lagged around the middle but picked up again once Brianna went through the stones.  

The sour note for me was Roger, and I see this is a bit of an unpopular opinion, but I hate Roger.  I didn't warm to him in DiA when his introduction consisted mostly of slobbering over Bree, but he was fairly unobjectionable for the rest of the book and in Voyager.  But I hated him in this book, it was hard to believe his love for Bree when he spent most of the time berating her and generally acting like a sexist pig - I suppose some allowances have to be made for the 60's but for me there was little charm to make up for it.

And while everyone shared some blame for the big misunderstanding, Roger definitely takes gold in the Moron Olympics.  At least with Claire, Jamie, Bree and Lizzy I could kind of understand the reasons behind why they thought what did and their actions.  All he had to do was tell Jamie his name (and tbh I would think the natural response to "are you Mackenzie?" would be, "Yes, Roger Mackenzie"), or try and explain himself in a logical way ("Bree and I handfasted" rather than "she wanted it"), or explain himself at all rather than trying to fight Jamie - and that he never even took responsibility for his part of the misunderstanding just boils my blood.  He does for leaving Bree to go chase gemstones (another idiot move) but never acknowledges that hey, maybe he shouldn't have come at Brianna's father, dick a-swinging, talking about claiming his wife and leaving out all the important details.  

[WatchrTina]

Two words:  "Testosterone poisoning."

Edited October 5, 2017 by WatchrTina

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, LadyAmalthea said:

And while everyone shared some blame for the big misunderstanding, Roger definitely takes gold in the Moron Olympics.  At least with Claire, Jamie, Bree and Lizzy I could kind of understand the reasons behind why they thought what did and their actions.  All he had to do was tell Jamie his name (and tbh I would think the natural response to "are you Mackenzie?" would be, "Yes, Roger Mackenzie"), or try and explain himself in a logical way ("Bree and I handfasted" rather than "she wanted it"), or explain himself at all rather than trying to fight Jamie - and that he never even took responsibility for his part of the misunderstanding just boils my blood.  He does for leaving Bree to go chase gemstones (another idiot move) but never acknowledges that hey, maybe he shouldn't have come at Brianna's father, dick a-swinging, talking about claiming his wife and leaving out all the important details.  

While I actually like Roger, his whole, "I've come to claim my wife" crap was so stupid. How about you introduce yourself first, dumbass. In fact, the whole thing was just downright stupid and contrived just to get Roger sold to the Natives so Ian could end up being lost, in the end. Just stupid.

[nodorothyparker]

It definitely is the Moron Olympics in that not one single character is willing to take 30 seconds and ask a followup question or two or at least try to explain themselves before they go charging off selling in-laws to the Indians or picking fights with a person you know from your own research is probably going to thoroughly kick your ass even if they don't kill you.  There's really no excuse for Roger, who knew full well who Jamie was and should have been picking and choosing his words much more carefully in introducing himself to the man who was his father-in-law.  But the whole ridiculousness exists so Bree can make her tortured comparisons of the Claire/Frank and Claire/Jamie marriages as love vs. duty and drag out the who's the daddy sweepstakes for Jem.  Also gotta get Ian traded off/lost to the Indians somehow.

I generally like Roger because as a modern academic, he's so completely out of his element when he goes back in time and having read once about how to use manual tools doesn't really help him much.  He's also pretty much on his own.  That would totally be me.  It's a nice contrast to Claire and Bree, who somehow always automatically figure out how to do things perfectly and have no shortage of helpful males about to cover for them when they don't.   I always also find it bit of interesting commentary on the changing roles and needed skill sets of men for as much talk as the series tends to inspire on women's roles.  I get that Roger's a bit of a tough sell here though.

[WatchrTina]

44 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Also gotta get Ian traded off/lost to the Indians somehow.

Weel now, let's not understate how important THAT is.  Because Mohawk Ian is AWESOME.

[nodorothyparker]

True enough.  But having him decide to go off and live with the Mohawk for awhile because he's already befriended some and regularly goes hunting with them, as we're told, isn't nearly dramatic enough.  Neither apparently is having him fall in love with a Mohawk girl.  No, we need a whole convoluted trading of a most beloved nephew for a shiny new son-in-law Jamie somewhat understandably doesn't like very much at the moment so DRAMA ensues.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I ADORE wee Ian. He wull always be Wee Ian to me! With his "Auntie Claire!"

[lianau]

11 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

While I actually like Roger, his whole, "I've come to claim my wife" crap was so stupid. How about you introduce yourself first, dumbass. In fact, the whole thing was just downright stupid and contrived just to get Roger sold to the Natives so Ian could end up being lost, in the end. Just stupid.

I always felt that Roger's background as a historian didn't do him anything good . He behaved like an actor in a living history village for most of the time and reality didn't set in until he was beaten up and sold to the Indians .  And then also came the realization that he doesn't have any skills to support a wife and kid in the 18th century .

[WatchrTina]

I'm betting that TV!Roger will be given precious little time to explain himself.  Jamie and Ian will have gotten the wrong end of the stick long before he shows up and I'm betting he'll hardly get a chance to get a word in before POW!

It will not be Jamie's finest hour (nor Ian's either.)  I look forward to the online outrage that will erupt because Richard Rankin is KILLING IT as Roger.  He's just adorable.  Jamie is my favorite but I anticipate being most displeased with him during that particular episode.

[toolazy]

On 10/3/2017 at 8:03 PM, LadyAmalthea said:

I'm slowly making my way through the books, and I think DoA is my least favourite so far although I still enjoyed it.  I found it really lagged around the middle but picked up again once Brianna went through the stones.  

The sour note for me was Roger, and I see this is a bit of an unpopular opinion, but I hate Roger.  I didn't warm to him in DiA when his introduction consisted mostly of slobbering over Bree, but he was fairly unobjectionable for the rest of the book and in Voyager.  But I hated him in this book, it was hard to believe his love for Bree when he spent most of the time berating her and generally acting like a sexist pig - I suppose some allowances have to be made for the 60's but for me there was little charm to make up for it.

And while everyone shared some blame for the big misunderstanding, Roger definitely takes gold in the Moron Olympics.  At least with Claire, Jamie, Bree and Lizzy I could kind of understand the reasons behind why they thought what did and their actions.  All he had to do was tell Jamie his name (and tbh I would think the natural response to "are you Mackenzie?" would be, "Yes, Roger Mackenzie"), or try and explain himself in a logical way ("Bree and I handfasted" rather than "she wanted it"), or explain himself at all rather than trying to fight Jamie - and that he never even took responsibility for his part of the misunderstanding just boils my blood.  He does for leaving Bree to go chase gemstones (another idiot move) but never acknowledges that hey, maybe he shouldn't have come at Brianna's father, dick a-swinging, talking about claiming his wife and leaving out all the important details.  

Or, you know, Bree could have mentioned the handfasting herself.  Imagine the heartache that would have prevented.  But no, this is the first in many examples of DG's lazy plotting.  As the books go on, this gets worse and worse until nothing at all would happen if it wasn't for increasingly weird coincidences of geography.  

 

Edit: And I say this as a person who LOVES these books.  Individual scenes are gorgeous works of art but DG just isn't that good at stringing them together in a way that makes sense. It's something that you just have to accept, which I do, even though I roll my eyes a lot.

Edited October 5, 2017 by toolazy

[Atlanta]

10 hours ago, toolazy said:

Or, you know, Bree could have mentioned the handfasting herself.  Imagine the heartache that would have prevented.  But no, this is the first in many examples of DG's lazy plotting.  As the books go on, this gets worse and worse until nothing at all would happen if it wasn't for increasingly weird coincidences of geography.  

 

Edit: And I say this as a person who LOVES these books.  Individual scenes are gorgeous works of art but DG just isn't that good at stringing them together in a way that makes sense. It's something that you just have to accept, which I do, even though I roll my eyes a lot.

I love DG and the series, but I agree. And stupid Stephen Bonnet. *pokes eyes out*

[LadyAmalthea]

I am actually liking Richard Rankin as Roger - if they can fix The Misunderstanding in the show so that it's not so contrived (although I could do without making it all Jamie and Ian's fault), and if they improve on the Roger/Bree setup in the 60's (less of Roger constantly judging Bree for being a vile temptress) I may love show!Roger.  To leave him with some flaws they can include him keeping the fire a secret from Bree for Teh Drama, since that won't seem like such a vile act without all his other Roger nonsense.    

[meatball77]

Just finished this book.

It seemed to have large sections where it was nothing but day to day boring trekking through the woods or farming with random bits of them jumping on each other.

Why did Claire and Jamie even go to find Rodger if they were just going to let him wander around almost to death after they got him from the Mohawks.  Claire couldn't even bother to fix his foot?  If they'd gotten him back faster then the two could at least decide if they wanted to go back to the future for her to give birth.

Ok, we get it already.  Claire has a great fat ass and Brianna is very large and tall.

Speaking of Brianna, I get that the girl is from the future but wearing mens clothes everywhere and following Bonnet into his room.  It's the 18th century what did the girl think was going to happen?

[Aleathiel]

Drums of autumn is in some ways one of books that have the bits I enjoy the least in the series so far. (I don’t like the Paris-parts of DiA and the parts of Voyager that takes place after young Ian has been kidnapped, either.) With this said, I still enjoyed many parts of it. As someone wrote earlier, the parts with everyday life on Fraser’s ridge reminds me of Little house on the praire, which I have always loved. I enjoyed that Claire and Jamie gets some regular day to day life, something we haven’t seen much of in the earlier books.

Some other moments I enjoyed in particular were Brianna at Lallybroch (and the reading of Jamie’s letters), of course the first meeting between Jamie and Brianna and when Bree and Claire meet again. And Jaime with Willie, and with Brianna (when he’s not being overprotective 18th century father-is).
 

I started reading the books after watching around half of season 3, therefore I had already encountered the tv-versions of Brianna and Roger. Generally, I very much enjoyed the 1950/1960-parts in the tv series and I really liked tv-Roger. Brianna… I didn’t dislike her, and some parts I even liked, but we don’t get to know her as deep as some of the other main characters so I'm more neutral about her.

Anyway, I don’t like book-Roger as much. He is much more man pig than I thought him to be in the tv series and it will be very interesting to see how it will be when we can watch season 4. And as many have pointed out, he’s a 1960-man and he is very conservatively raised, but still I think his thoughs/behaviour are a bit over the top.

 

Generally I miss the descripsions of what happens directly after they go back through the stones (Claire, Bree, Roger). Especially Bree, being a woman on her own and out of her time.

 

The whole idiot-plot about the misunderstaning about Roger/Bonnet is really annoying. Many of you have written that Brianna should just have told Jaime and Claire that she and Roger were handfasted, and I can agree to this, but wasn’t the reason for her not telling that she wanted Roger to have a way out of it, if he didn’t want her and the baby that possibly wasn’t his? That could explain why she didn’t tell.

 

What really bothers be is the name confusion about Wakefield/MacKenzie. First of all Brianna should have thought of that when noone had heard of Roger Wakefield, but also Claire, and maybe Jamie as well? Am I wrong to remember that Claire at some point told Jamie about Roger and that he is the grandgrandgrand-something-son of Dougal and Geilis? And he therefore should have made the connection when Lizzie (and then Roger himself) talked about MacKenzie?

 

Another thing is that Roger, who goes back in time because it’s dangerous for Brianna there, leaves her just because of a fight, when he finally found her. Sure, a nasty fight, but still! The stones could have waited a bit, at that moment they aren’t in a specific rush even if I understand that he wants to go back with her.

 

Now – on with The fiery cross! ?

[Atlanta]

Aleathiel, I think he left to go find gems so they could go back through the stones as safely as possible. IIRC, Jamie calls him out on that and Roger explains and earns J's respect. 

[Aleathiel]

17 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Aleathiel, I think he left to go find gems so they could go back through the stones as safely as possible. IIRC, Jamie calls him out on that and Roger explains and earns J's respect. 

Atlanta, I know that's what Roger left to do, but I still don't think it's logic for him to leave Brianna just after he finally has found her. 

[ruby24]

How does Joe Abernathy know the truth? I don't remember Claire telling him. And why would he just believe something like that with no evidence?

[DittyDotDot]

11 hours ago, ruby24 said:

How does Joe Abernathy know the truth? I don't remember Claire telling him. And why would he just believe something like that with no evidence?

I can't remember for sure right now, but did Claire tell him when she went back to Boston to settle her affairs before returning to the past in Voyager? I think she told him so he would understand and look out for Brianna. I can't remember what she offered up as proof, though. Maybe he's just that open minded and trusted her? Sorry, I'm blanking on the details a bit.

[toolazy]

55 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I can't remember for sure right now, but did Claire tell him when she went back to Boston to settle her affairs before returning to the past in Voyager? I think she told him so he would understand and look out for Brianna. I can't remember what she offered up as proof, though. Maybe he's just that open minded and trusted her? Sorry, I'm blanking on the details a bit.

Well, Joe knows that there is something special about Claire - he mentions her uncanny diagnostic skills at one point.  So he's sort of primed to accept it.

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, toolazy said:

Well, Joe knows that there is something special about Claire - he mentions her uncanny diagnostic skills at one point.  So he's sort of primed to accept it.

That's true. Claire is all sorts of strange in both the future and the past. ;)

[auntlada]

9 hours ago, toolazy said:

Well, Joe knows that there is something special about Claire - he mentions her uncanny diagnostic skills at one point.  So he's sort of primed to accept it.

And he knew that Frank wasn't Brianna's biological dad because he knew a little something (or a lot) about genetics.

[ruby24]

I know that Joe knew that Bree wasn't Frank's- I remember that conversation. I just don't remember Claire actually telling him the truth. I could have sworn she hadn't told him when she left.

The next thing I remember is that Roger was on the phone with him, talking about Brianna after she'd taken off, and all of a sudden it appeared that he knew everything. Did Roger tell him? Did Bree? What was his reaction? How could he just believe it? I was really annoyed at that being left out.

[auntlada]

I always thought Claire told him in the conversation that started with Bree still being in Scotland. She said something like, "That's where the favor comes in." Gabaldon just didn't write the actual conversation.

[Pingaponga]

I finished reading this last night. Well, 2am this morning, technically. I think it rates third of the four books, with the first book being at the bottom of the list.

I can forgive Jamie for his behaviour. He’s from the 1700s, where a woman’s virtue was the be all and end all of her value. He was an ass, but that’s by today’s standards.

I loved Claire, Ian, and the bits of Fergus that we saw.

But Roger. Oh Roger. You travel all that way, and through so much time and hardship, and insist on leaving Brianna right away to obtain gems so she and you can return home? What the hell is the rush? She has yet to see her mother, let alone meet her father, and as far as the two of them know they are going to have to take a boat back to Scotland and get to the standing stones before even attempting to return to their own time. No matter what, they won’t be needing the gems in the next two months, at least. There is absolutely no logical reason why he has to get those gems from that person now. And that’s the fault of the author for not explaining why Roger feels there will be absolutely no other opportunities to obtain gems.

And “I’m here to claim my wife!”? Wtf? Who would say this to the father-in-law one has never met?? It seemed completely out of character. 

And Brianna. How is this girl so dumb? She was studying History, and switched to Engineering. Clearly she is one smart cookie. How can someone so clearly intelligent be so ridiculously dumb? Again and again and again. From thinking she could easily get the ring from Bonnet, to not telling anyone from the get-go about the handfasting, to trying to blackmail Lord John...to refusing to see the reality of her situation in the 1700s, she just doesn’t think anything through or plan. My husband and his friends are all Engineers, and one thing they all have in common is their very annoying habit of analyzing before acting. Engineers are supposed to learn from their mistakes. Brianna just keeps making them, and with her knowledge of history she really shouldn’t be.

I do have two questions. At the end, Roger asks Claire about, I think, the people who adopted his ancestor who was the child of Geillis and Duncan - is that right? And was that the young couple/baby on the ship?

And my second question. I understand why they think they need gemstones to travel through the standing stones. Geillis’s research had turned up that fact, and everyone has lost a gemstone while travelling through time. But why did Brianna think Roger’s arrival meant she wouldn’t be able to travel back to the 1900s? She said something about needing someone she loved to be at the other end to help her travel. But when Claire first went through the stones, it was a complete accident on her part and she sure wasn’t thinking of anyone or any particular time when she went through. When Claire went back to the 1900s she went “for” her baby and to Frank, and when she returned to the 1700s it was “for” Jamie. But wasn’t the very first time sheer fluke? I’m confused.

[morgan]

PIngaponga Brianna believes having that tie helps you stear to where you want to go.  When Claire chose to go through the stones she was able to get back to Frank at the right time, same when she went back to Jamie.  The stones may help you survive the journey, but having someone to get to gets you to where you want to be.

I go back and forth with Claire’s first trip.  Did she somehow “know” Jamie subconsciously and stear that way, or was she somehow thinking about Jack after Frank’s stories?  

[DittyDotDot]

20 hours ago, Pingaponga said:

I do have two questions. At the end, Roger asks Claire about, I think, the people who adopted his ancestor who was the child of Geillis and Duncan - is that right? And was that the young couple/baby on the ship?

I don't remember the conversation you're asking about, but, yes, the couple with the baby on the ship were Roger's ancestors--Geillis and Dougal's son, his wife and his child.  

Spoiler

If you keep reading, they'll pop back up in a later book.

20 hours ago, Pingaponga said:

And my second question. I understand why they think they need gemstones to travel through the standing stones. Geillis’s research had turned up that fact, and everyone has lost a gemstone while travelling through time. But why did Brianna think Roger’s arrival meant she wouldn’t be able to travel back to the 1900s? She said something about needing someone she loved to be at the other end to help her travel. But when Claire first went through the stones, it was a complete accident on her part and she sure wasn’t thinking of anyone or any particular time when she went through. When Claire went back to the 1900s she went “for” her baby and to Frank, and when she returned to the 1700s it was “for” Jamie. But wasn’t the very first time sheer fluke? I’m confused.

They don't really know how the stones work, not exactly, but it does appear there is both a physical (gem stones and certain metals) and mental aspect (thinking of where you want to go) to being able to steer successfully while traveling. Remember Roger's first attempt failed because he was thinking of himself as a lad and started traveling back to that time--which apparently you can't travel back to a time when you already existed. So, IMO, Brianna is wrong that you need someone on the other side, but I do think you need to think of where you want to end up and having someone you think you're returning to might make that easier. 

BTW, I'm not so sure it was a total accident Claire ended up where she did. It does seem like 200 years is the default one travels if they aren't focused, but there had been lots of talk about Frank's ancestor over the days before she traveled and the night before Frank had talked about the Highlander ghost who is presumably Jamie's ghost. So, I do think it likely that Claire could've been thinking of these things when she traveled which could've drawn her to that time when both Jamie and Black Jack existed, as well. 

20 hours ago, Pingaponga said:

But Roger. Oh Roger. You travel all that way, and through so much time and hardship, and insist on leaving Brianna right away to obtain gems so she and you can return home? What the hell is the rush? She has yet to see her mother, let alone meet her father, and as far as the two of them know they are going to have to take a boat back to Scotland and get to the standing stones before even attempting to return to their own time. No matter what, they won’t be needing the gems in the next two months, at least. There is absolutely no logical reason why he has to get those gems from that person now. And that’s the fault of the author for not explaining why Roger feels there will be absolutely no other opportunities to obtain gems.

It's been a while since I read it, but, as I recall, Roger knew where this person he was stealing the gems from was going to be on a certain date and then this person was supposedly sailing back across the ocean. So, if Roger was going to get the gems, this was his only opportunity. However, I agree with you that it was really silly. It seems it would've been more prudent to go with Brianna and meet the in laws instead of heading off on a foolhardy errand that had little chance of succeeding anyway. More likely he end up dead, IMO, but what do I know! ;)

21 hours ago, Pingaponga said:

And “I’m here to claim my wife!”? Wtf? Who would say this to the father-in-law one has never met?? It seemed completely out of character. 

Don't even get me started... . ;)

[WatchrTina]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Don't even get me started... . ;)

Yeah the scene where Roger first meets Jamie and that massive misunderstanding that occurs (thanks for nothing Fanny, and Ian you were no damn help either) is one of the most frustrating moments in the whole series. It's worth it because the aftermath makes for some really great drama downstream but yeah, it's not a shining moment for Jamie or Roger or Ian.  I chalk the whole thing up to a massive case of testosterone poisoning.  As for Brianna's failure to tell Jamie & Claire that she and Roger are hand-fasted . . . well she IS Jamie's daughter and those Frasers know how to carry a grudge.  A grudge for what, you say?  The thing no one has mentioned yet -- the real reason Roger abandons his bride right after their weddinghand-fast-night.  Doesn't it come to light on the morning-after that Roger had learned where Jamie and Claire were living (in the past) and also when they were supposed to die (in a house-fire) and didn't he choose to NOT tell Brianna?  She discovers it for herself and runs off to the past to save them.  When she finds out that Roger already knew, but kept the information from her, she is FURIOUS.  Full-on, grand mal, Fraser furious.  Roger goes off after the gem-stones in part to make sure that they can safely return to the future but mainly he leaves in order to be somewhere else for a while because his new "bride" is really really pissed off with him (and he's pissed off too since he only kept the truth from her to protect her <insert additional self-righteous rationalizations that you just KNOW were fueling his anger as he stalks off> .  Brianna's  rage at Roger's lie-of-ommission is (I presume) the reason she doesn't tell her parents that she and Roger are hand-fasted.  She probably thinks he's buggered off back the the future after their huge fight and if she's never going to see him again there's no need to complicate her life by admitting to being hand-fasted to him.  That makes a bit of sense until, you know, she turns up pregnant.  That would have been a REALLY good time to mention the hand-fast ceremony to her parents.  But by then I think she's beginning to wonder if she's been left behind by Roger and she's got her own self-righteous streak (I'm a 1960's woman, hear me roar!) of BS going on.  They are quite the pair those two.  And Ian and Jamie are no better.  Morons!  The lot of them!

I really do wish Sophie Skelton the best of luck getting through season 4 without everyone hating her character for Brianna's failure to be forthcoming about her relationship with Roger and blaming her (and only her) for the horrible comedy of errors that ensues.  As I've said, Jamie, Roger and Ian (and Lizzy) also share the blame but I have a bad feeling that Brianna is going to take almost all the heat.  It will be interesting to see how the writers deal with this.

[toolazy]

See, I  blame Diana Gabaldon for the Grand Debacle.  In order to get people where she needed them to be for the plot, they had to act in stupid ways and make bad decisions.  As much as DG excels in writing scenes and characters, she sucks at plots.  Too many situations in these books require characters to behave, um, uncharacteristically.  She also depends too heavily on coincidences of timing and geography, especially the last two books.

I'm honestly not looking forward to seeing this play out in the show because it's my least favorite storyline in the entire series. 

[nodorothyparker]

Me too.  I've always found the whole excuse of "testosterone poisoning" - really? - to be a lazy cop out on Gabaldon's part and putting it in Claire's mouth doesn't make it any better.  I've long imagined her finally writing the ending of that book and then realizing gee, this is really nonsensical even for me but it got everyone where I needed them to be so I'll just have Claire, the narrator and supposed voice of reason throughout the series, tell us this is why all of this happened this way and everybody will shrug and be happy, the end.   It's funny to me that she writes such great characters and a great story overall but she continually goes to the well of incredible coincidences and illogical plotting that sometimes requires smart characters to suddenly do the dumbest things or act wildly out of character to make it work.

[Pingaponga]

Thanks to everyone for answering my questions.  I had forgotten that the argument between Roger and Brianna was over her realization that he had found out that her parents had died in a fire in 1776.  Quite possibly because he could easily, easily have said that yes, he had found out, and had debated whether or not to tell her, and had decided he wanted to tell her in person and not in a letter or over the phone.  He didn't have to cop to having found out over a year ago.  A little white lie to calm down your brand new wife who just lost her virginity in a barn 200 years before she was born would have been okay.  At least in my world.

[Cdh20]

On 2018-08-18 at 3:48 PM, morgan said:

PIngaponga Brianna believes having that tie helps you stear to where you want to go.  When Claire chose to go through the stones she was able to get back to Frank at the right time, same when she went back to Jamie.  The stones may help you survive the journey, but having someone to get to gets you to where you want to be.

I go back and forth with Claire’s first trip.  Did she somehow “know” Jamie subconsciously and stear that way, or was she somehow thinking about Jack after Frank’s stories?  

I always believe she was meant for Jamie, and that is why she landed where she did! 

 

I just started reading the book, so as to not get ahead of the show!

Edited December 28, 2018 by Cdh20

[toolazy]

51 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

I always believe she was meant for Jamie, and that is why she landed where she did! 

 

I just started reading the book, so as to not get ahead of the show!

I think we're supposed to think that it was BJR's Frankness that guided her to 1743.

[Cdh20]

54 minutes ago, toolazy said:

I think we're supposed to think that it was BJR's Frankness that guided her to 1743.

Yuck I have trouble with that! You think it was a coincidence she met Jamie & saved him? I wonder about Claire’s family tree because obviously they were time travellers, maybe one day Diana will explain that, & Claire’s destiny?

Edited December 29, 2018 by Cdh20

[auntlada]

1 hour ago, toolazy said:

I think we're supposed to think that it was BJR's Frankness that guided her to 1743.

I always assumed it was because of Jamie because she had actually been there (in her future, but in the past, so although she didn't know it, it had already happened)

Spoiler

because of the ghost in book 1.

If I think too hard about it, though, it gets into wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff.

[Kim0820]

On 7/12/2016 at 9:28 PM, toolazy said:

I blame Brianna almost exclusively for the Jamie/Ian/Roger fiasco.  If she would have just told her parents that she was handfasted with Roger and had been raped by Bonnet, end of problem.  Roger Mac doesn't get beaten, Ian doesn't go to the Indians, etc.  This is the point in the books that I begin to actively hate her. 

Also how Brianna acted as if they did it on purpose; that they knew they were beating the wrong man.  It was mistakes on their part, but reasonable ones given what they knew at the time.  So she didn't have to get so angry at them about it.  

[toolazy]

On 12/28/2018 at 5:07 PM, Cdh20 said:

Yuck I have trouble with that! You think it was a coincidence she met Jamie & saved him? I wonder about Claire’s family tree because obviously they were time travellers, maybe one day Diana will explain that, & Claire’s destiny?

The story of Outlander would be much different without freakish coincidences.  But it's definitely BJR that steered her to her destination because she was thinking about Frank. He's the first person she sees.  Murtagh only intervenes to save her from BJR.  And Jamie was some ways away from the stones - Murtagh took her away on a horse.  So it definitely wasn't Jamie. Or at least, not Jamie alone.

The books make a big deal about how who you're thinking about when you're in the stones guides you. 

[SassAndSnacks]

If you've been following along on other threads, you may know that I'm re-reading the whole book series for the third time while in Covid lockdown (which will actually be lifted for us on Friday), so I'll forego the lengthy prologue.

I started Book 4 last week and I'm currently 30% through, according to my Kindle.  This one has always been a "bridge book" for me.  I love Fiery Cross, ABOSAA, and MOBY.  I'm a Fraser's Ridge aficionado, so I appreciate the steps this book must take to get me there.  I've typically rushed through it to get to the other books, though.  I'm trying to be more deliberate with my pacing during this foray.

There are so many wonderful, complex Jamie moments in this book.  We see him doubt himself, feel inadequate, be merciful, be overly trusting, vengeful, awed, vulnerable.  I love it.  In particular, when he and Claire are taking their midnight boat ride after Jocasta's foiled dinner party and JQM's impromptu hernia surgery, we see the full range of emotions while he decides if he should manage River Run or strike out on his own.  I love the line from Claire - "Here was a man who had always known his worth."  

I also really empathize with and enjoy seeing Claire's vulnerability with the uncertainty of their future.  Her panic at losing Jamie again is so real and relatable, and it leads to their beautiful conversation about faith and thermodynamics.  

Finally, I read the chapters on the altercation between the slave and the overseer over the weekend, while protests here were turning from peace to literal fire.  It made me think of a sign I had seen raised during the coverage of one protest which said "I can't believe we are still doing this."  I had to stop reading for a bit, not able to focus on the pages in the book because I can't believe we are still doing this to our own people.  

We're back in 1969 Scotland right now, Rog is about to offer a failed proposal to Bree. Wah, waahhhhh.  Emotional whiplash, both in the book, and apparently in this post.  For that, I apologize.  

[SassAndSnacks]

Ok, I'm 70% of the way through.  The "Great Misunderstanding" is about to happen.  Blergh...

Some thoughts on the middle portion of this book - 

- So much Brianna and Roger.  SO MUCH.  SO. MUCH.  Too much.

- Thoroughly enjoyed Bree's time at Lallybroch during this read-through.  THIS is the Bree I want to see.  This is the Bree that is the daughter of JAMMF.  And, if she was like this all the time, I'd like her much more.  But, she isn't, so I don't.  

- I broke my "No Skimming, No Skipping" rule and completely paged through Roger's time on the Gloriana on the way to America.  He does some really eyebrow raising things here - lying to Stephen Bonnet, provoking him, kissing his umpteen-times great-grandmother.  Plus, the whole section is upsetting, throwing babies overboard.  And yeah, I'd kind of had enough of Roger and Bree at that point, so I skipped it.  

- This time through, I felt like Jamie meeting Brianna was rushed.  They meet and have some wonderful dialogue, but then DG has then rush through the immediate follow-up in a haze.  I wanted more.

And now, for the "Great Misunderstanding."  This plot line always loses and frustrates me.  For a couple that is so candid and honest and trusting of each other, I hate the lack of communication.  I'm hoping I can blow right through this and move on to Book 5.  

[toolazy]

5 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Ok, I'm 70% of the way through.  The "Great Misunderstanding" is about to happen.  Blergh...

Some thoughts on the middle portion of this book - 

- So much Brianna and Roger.  SO MUCH.  SO. MUCH.  Too much.

- Thoroughly enjoyed Bree's time at Lallybroch during this read-through.  THIS is the Bree I want to see.  This is the Bree that is the daughter of JAMMF.  And, if she was like this all the time, I'd like her much more.  But, she isn't, so I don't.  

- I broke my "No Skimming, No Skipping" rule and completely paged through Roger's time on the Gloriana on the way to America.  He does some really eyebrow raising things here - lying to Stephen Bonnet, provoking him, kissing his umpteen-times great-grandmother.  Plus, the whole section is upsetting, throwing babies overboard.  And yeah, I'd kind of had enough of Roger and Bree at that point, so I skipped it.  

- This time through, I felt like Jamie meeting Brianna was rushed.  They meet and have some wonderful dialogue, but then DG has then rush through the immediate follow-up in a haze.  I wanted more.

And now, for the "Great Misunderstanding."  This plot line always loses and frustrates me.  For a couple that is so candid and honest and trusting of each other, I hate the lack of communication.  I'm hoping I can blow right through this and move on to Book 5.  

I read the bit with Roger on the boat the first time and will never read it again.  I don't even remember all that happens - I just remember I hated it.

[Cdh20]

On 8/19/2018 at 4:35 PM, toolazy said:

See, I  blame Diana Gabaldon for the Grand Debacle.  In order to get people where she needed them to be for the plot, they had to act in stupid ways and make bad decisions.  As much as DG excels in writing scenes and characters, she sucks at plots.  Too many situations in these books require characters to behave, um, uncharacteristically.  She also depends too heavily on coincidences of timing and geography, especially the last two books.

I'm honestly not looking forward to seeing this play out in the show because it's my least favorite storyline in the entire series. 

Roger being sold to the Indians is indeed the worst plot of the first 5 books ( that is all I’ve read).

[SassAndSnacks]

16 hours ago, toolazy said:

I read the bit with Roger on the boat the first time and will never read it again.  I don't even remember all that happens - I just remember I hated it.

Three bits I always skip in the whole series - Helwater, Roger on a Boat, Dismal Swamp.

[Cdh20]

9 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Three bits I always skip in the whole series - Helwater, Roger on a Boat, Dismal Swamp.

I didn't hate Helwater (don't really remember reading it but it's one of my faves in the show actually)! I have no idea what Dismal Swamp is?? Something to not look forward to? LOL

I also didn't enjoy the Caribbean adventures in Voyager, I liked the whole first half, but the last 1/2, 1/3, whatever, was like a whole different book.  

[SassAndSnacks]

11 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

I didn't hate Helwater (don't really remember reading it but it's one of my faves in the show actually)! I have no idea what Dismal Swamp is?? Something to not look forward to? LOL

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be spoilery for you.  You might really enjoy it!!

I just hate the whole Geneva plotline, so I refuse to read it.  Helwater is my...

10 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

Roger being sold to the Indians is indeed the worst plot of the first 5 books

...I just absolutely loathe and hate it.  I actually have a physical reaction to even discussing/thinking about.  This probably means I'm far too invested in this story, but it is what it is.  

16 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

I also didn't enjoy the Caribbean adventures in Voyager, I liked the whole first half, but the last 1/2, 1/3, whatever, was like a whole different book.

Oh my goodness, YES!  I just read this two weeks ago and complained about on this very forum!  Clearly, I repressed those painful memories.  Yes, Outlanders of the Caribbean, not my fave.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

29 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Oh my goodness, YES!  I just read this two weeks ago and complained about on this very forum!  Clearly, I repressed those painful memories.  Yes, Outlanders of the Caribbean, not my fave.  

Aye, go back to that buik thread and you'll find it was dubbed a "French Farce" with all the ship shenanigans.

[toolazy]

4 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

I didn't hate Helwater (don't really remember reading it but it's one of my faves in the show actually)! I have no idea what Dismal Swamp is?? Something to not look forward to? LOL

I also didn't enjoy the Caribbean adventures in Voyager, I liked the whole first half, but the last 1/2, 1/3, whatever, was like a whole different book.  

The Dismal Swamp is in I think, book 7, maybe book 6.  It is the setting for one of the most grievous geographical coincidences in the entire series.