S19.E29: Stevie Van Zandt; Matt Taibbi; Katherine Mangu-Ward

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Quote

Bill opens this week's show interviewing musician and activist Stevie Van Zandt. For the panel, he's joined by journalist and podcaster Matt Taibbi alongside Editor-in-Chief of Reason magazine Katherine Mangu-Ward.

Original air date 2021.10.01

[Pike Ludwell]

Looks to be an interesting show this week. Matt Taibbi, Katherine Mangu-Ward (editor of Reason), and musician Stevie van Zandt.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Pike Ludwell

[Victor the Crab]

Ugh! The guest list looks like a reason NOT to watch it!

[JeanJean]

The rant at the end bothered me. I don't watch many influencers (I'm old) but how is it different than being a salesperson? And also, he's a comedian; it's sort of on the same level. It boils down to "I like to think up funny things and then I like to be paid for it." Now I appreciate comedians; I just don't see the huge difference. Entertainment is important - life would be hard without it. Entertainment has helped people get through the pandemic when we couldn't do anything else.  I just didn't understand why he was picking on this newfangled thing the kids are doing.

[aghst]

All 3 of them, who probably are college graduates, were Pooh poohing college education.

Then Bill talked about the poorly educated Trump followers.  So which is it, you don’t need college education or the poorly educated are politically unsophisticated?

I would guess all the writers are on the show are college educated.

You may not need to have gone to college to be a standup comic but would Bill be the same topical comic if he didn’t go to Cornell?

In any event, the data is very clear, a wide gulf in earning power between college and non college graduates.  Sure there are some trades and routes to success without college degrees.  

But they discussed it, 60% of those entering college are women and when they graduate, they increasingly  don’t want to date men without college education.  Even men who own their own construction or plumbing companies who make a lot of money.  Is it elitism?  Or It that some of these college-educated women want to know men with some intellectual curiosity or those who can converse on some topics?  Or maybe men who went through similar experiences going through college, maybe grad school, maybe did some traveling, etc?

 

Then Taibbi with his nonsense about there was no collusion.  Um political campaigns can’t have ANY contacts with foreign powers, end of story.  If it wasn’t for Republican obstruction, Trump and many in his circle would have been prosecuted though not in the US.  France just sentenced their former president Sarkozy for a year.

 

The libertarian chick — “libertarians are fun at parties” — with her nonsense.  She’s skeptical of FDA and CDC.  If it were up to libertarians, there would be no such agencies and there would be snake oil salesmen still.

Yeah “read Brazilian studies on Ivermectin on your own and take them!” 

STFU.

Morons in Idaho are threatening to shoot doctors for not giving their relatives horse dewormer.  Individual choice?  If doctors gave that shit and their relatives died, there would be malpractice suits or maybe they carry out the threat to kill doctors.

The covid pill they talked about is associated with birth defects so men in the trial were told not to have sex because the pill could deform sperm.  There may be other side effects.

But this bitch says bureaucracy is going to block or delay the pill.  Vaccine is still the better choice because it reduces the chance of hospitalization and death by a greater factor than the pill, not to mention reduce the chance of infection in the first place.

 

 

[Mldyold]

7 hours ago, aghst said:

All 3 of them, who probably are college graduates, were Pooh poohing college education.

Then Bill talked about the poorly educated Trump followers.  So which is it, you don’t need college education or the poorly educated are politically unsophisticated?

I would guess all the writers are on the show are college educated.

You may not need to have gone to college to be a standup comic but would Bill be the same topical comic if he didn’t go to Cornell?

In any event, the data is very clear, a wide gulf in earning power between college and non college graduates.  Sure there are some trades and routes to success without college degrees.  

But they discussed it, 60% of those entering college are women and when they graduate, they increasingly  don’t want to date men without college education.  Even men who own their own construction or plumbing companies who make a lot of money.  Is it elitism?  Or It that some of these college-educated women want to know men with some intellectual curiosity or those who can converse on some topics?  Or maybe men who went through similar experiences going through college, maybe grad school, maybe did some traveling, etc?

 

Then Taibbi with his nonsense about there was no collusion.  Um political campaigns can’t have ANY contacts with foreign powers, end of story.  If it wasn’t for Republican obstruction, Trump and many in his circle would have been prosecuted though not in the US.  France just sentenced their former president Sarkozy for a year.

 

The libertarian chick — “libertarians are fun at parties” — with her nonsense.  She’s skeptical of FDA and CDC.  If it were up to libertarians, there would be no such agencies and there would be snake oil salesmen still.

Yeah “read Brazilian studies on Ivermectin on your own and take them!” 

STFU.

Morons in Idaho are threatening to shoot doctors for not giving their relatives horse dewormer.  Individual choice?  If doctors gave that shit and their relatives died, there would be malpractice suits or maybe they carry out the threat to kill doctors.

The covid pill they talked about is associated with birth defects so men in the trial were told not to have sex because the pill could deform sperm.  There may be other side effects.

But this bitch says bureaucracy is going to block or delay the pill.  Vaccine is still the better choice because it reduces the chance of hospitalization and death by a greater factor than the pill, not to mention reduce the chance of infection in the first place.

 

 

Thanks for this detail, I am going to erase it instead of wasting the hour. 

[DoctorAtomic]

Community colleges offer a ton of options for people who don't want or need a BS degree that qualify them for good paying, skilled jobs. I am literally seeking funding to create a community college curriculum for this. It's the height of arrogance for Bill and the panel to punch down on community colleges.

We have a significantly aging workforce in techical positions and with the rise of automation, community colleges is where the next generation of skilled workers is going to come from. 

And I tend to agree with Bill on people going into majors where all they can do is wait tables. 

Community college students are working at least one job because they are paying their own way and busting their ass to rise up. 

[DoctorAtomic]

What reality is this woman living in? I know plenty of people who disagree with me politically. 

 

[iMonrey]

Matt Taibbe. I used to like him, and then something happened to him. I tried to listen to one of his podcasts (he's had a least two, without much success apparently) and I could not stand the sound of his voice. He has the worst case of vocal fry I've ever heard in a man. His voice just croaks out of his throat without any force whatsoever.

Then there's this "both sides suck equally" false equivalency thing he has adopted. That seems to make him think he's just superior to all of it. He doesn't think there was any collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

The "discussion" about the infrastructure bills was shockingly superficial. There's a reason everything Democrats want is in one bill, it's because the arcane Senate rules would never allow them to pass a bunch of separate bills and reconciliation is the only way it will ever happen. But apparently nobody on this panel understood that. It's like the extent of their political knowledge is whatever sound bytes they hear on Fox News, or at best, MSNBC.

I've never heard of Katherine Mangu-Ward before, and I never want to again. She doesn't trust the FDA or the CDC. OK then. But are she and Bill actually advocating for Ivermectin?? WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.

This was the worst episode in a long time, and that's saying a lot. And of course Bill had to get his usual dig in about cancel culture because he cannot go one week without bitching about it.

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't know what they were going on about with the limitless spending either. I take the point that all spending bills have some creative accounting, but 1 it's actually a ten year plan, and 2 they are raising taxes to pay for it. Now, you can argue that they're not raising taxes enough, which I would, but they aren't just printing money either. 

I also take the point that upper middle class doesn't need two grand per kid, but that's a policy debate. Just for all the other stuff, broadband, etc., I'd still vote for it, and I won't be voting for my representatives is they don't. Certainly, that final number will come down, but again, that's policy. 

I don't mind difference of opinion, but there was too much just factually incorrect information in this episode. 

Edited October 2, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[aghst]

It should be noted that the Debt Ceiling issue is about all PREVIOUS spending.

McConnell and other Republicans whine about the $3.5 trillion but the debt ceiling is to pay for all the money THEY spent under Trump and all other previous presidents.

Republicans have repeatedly threatened to cause the US to default when they're out of power.

This is why filibuster needs to be eliminated.  I think Bill spoke in favor of getting rid of the filibuster but I'm not sure.

[DoctorAtomic]

There are plenty of jobs out there. They require degrees, which the panel all were derisive on. 

So which is it? 

[DB in CMH]

10 hours ago, aghst said:

All 3 of them, who probably are college graduates, were Pooh poohing college education.

Then Bill talked about the poorly educated Trump followers.  So which is it, you don’t need college education or the poorly educated are politically unsophisticated?

I would guess all the writers are on the show are college educated.

You may not need to have gone to college to be a standup comic but would Bill be the same topical comic if he didn’t go to Cornell?

In any event, the data is very clear, a wide gulf in earning power between college and non college graduates.  Sure there are some trades and routes to success without college degrees.  

But they discussed it, 60% of those entering college are women and when they graduate, they increasingly  don’t want to date men without college education.  Even men who own their own construction or plumbing companies who make a lot of money.  Is it elitism?  Or It that some of these college-educated women want to know men with some intellectual curiosity or those who can converse on some topics?  Or maybe men who went through similar experiences going through college, maybe grad school, maybe did some traveling, etc?

 

Then Taibbi with his nonsense about there was no collusion.  Um political campaigns can’t have ANY contacts with foreign powers, end of story.  If it wasn’t for Republican obstruction, Trump and many in his circle would have been prosecuted though not in the US.  France just sentenced their former president Sarkozy for a year.

 

The libertarian chick — “libertarians are fun at parties” — with her nonsense.  She’s skeptical of FDA and CDC.  If it were up to libertarians, there would be no such agencies and there would be snake oil salesmen still.

Yeah “read Brazilian studies on Ivermectin on your own and take them!” 

STFU.

Morons in Idaho are threatening to shoot doctors for not giving their relatives horse dewormer.  Individual choice?  If doctors gave that shit and their relatives died, there would be malpractice suits or maybe they carry out the threat to kill doctors.

The covid pill they talked about is associated with birth defects so men in the trial were told not to have sex because the pill could deform sperm.  There may be other side effects.

But this bitch says bureaucracy is going to block or delay the pill.  Vaccine is still the better choice because it reduces the chance of hospitalization and death by a greater factor than the pill, not to mention reduce the chance of infection in the first place.

 

 

This bugged me to no end. Talk about your privilege showing. And not knowing what community colleges teach? Come the fuck on. And at last count, less than half of Americans actually go to college.

I still watch because there's a grain of truth to what Maher says. But it's so wrapped up in his own privilege, personal axes-to-grind, and out-of-touchness, that it's hard to take him seriously.

Edited October 2, 2021 by DB in CMH

[bobbyjoe]

Quote

In any event, the data is very clear, a wide gulf in earning power between college and non college graduates.  Sure there are some trades and routes to success without college degrees.  

True, but Berkeley was mean once to Bill, so college is bad.

[millennium]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

This was the worst episode in a long time, and that's saying a lot. And of course Bill had to get his usual dig in about cancel culture because he cannot go one week without bitching about it.

I watched before coming here.  Called it quits at the 44 minute mark.   It was boring, the guests were annoying (especially Matt Taibbi) and Bill didn't have anything terribly interesting or funny to talk about.   As he went down his list of topics, he reminded me of Cliff Clavin's stand-up comedy routine:  Anybody had a chance to call a TV repairman lately?  What's up with that?   The Avon Lady -- ding dong.  What's up with that?

I can't understand the point of Steven Van Zant as a guest -- possibly the segment might have been saved if Little Steven did his Silvio-impersonating-Al-Pacino Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in bit.  But Sun City?  Really?  And not a single question about the just-released Sopranos movie?

Edited October 2, 2021 by millennium

[arachne]

16 hours ago, millennium said:

I can't understand the point of Steven Van Zant as a guest

He was there presumably to plug his new book, Unrequited Infatuations, coming out now. 

[millennium]

1 hour ago, arachne said:

He was there presumably to plug his new book, Unrequited Infatuations, coming out now. 

I get that, but how is he relevant to anything else going on today?  Not a single question about the current political climate (vs. the past), nor observations/comments about the Sopranos movie.  He may not be in the movie himself but he's certainly in a position to have thoughts about it.  Instead the takeaway of the interview was "Bill has friends in Bruce Springsteen's band."

[Hanahope]

Bill:  aren’t kids a choice?

What someone should have said:  Not in Texas.

 

it used to be, 30 years ago, that any employer wanted people with college degrees.  Bank teller?  Need a degree.  Store manager?  Need a degree.  So where’s the blame on businesses that required even low level people to have a degree?  
My father was able to work as an electrical engineer at xerox never finishing college.  That’s was 60 years ago.  But businesses changed and now we have debt laden young adults.

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by Hanahope

[ahpny]

On 10/2/2021 at 3:39 AM, aghst said:

She’s skeptical of FDA and CDC.  If it were up to libertarians, there would be no such agencies and there would be snake oil salesmen still.

Exactly. The "we know better than the FDA" argument is ridiculous. FDA exists precisely because ordinary people cannot be expected to understand the complexities of whether prescription drugs work. While FDA makes mistakes, and should be questioned about many things, to suggest that we'd all be better off deciding these issues on our own is an absurdly non-serious argument. Even with all its flaws and limitations, FDA is the envy of the world and relied upon by myriad other countries and regulatory agencies across the globe. This rant sounds like an enervated "government is inherently evil" argument drudged up from the Reagan years.

Edited October 4, 2021 by ahpny

[Hanahope]

so in regards to Bill's rant about 'van-life' people.  

Bill refers to "retirees" who would get in an RV and travel the country.  Did he see Nomadland?  Sometimes its not a choice.  these people are barely making ends meet.  

Certainly, young people exploring 'van-life' seems to be a relatively recent thing.   I tend to think its a fairly upper-middle class thing, since it does cost money to buy these vans, completely out-fit/renovate them, then afford the food/gas to travel around the country.  Maybe Bill should have explored more how these people are affording this kindof lifestyle.  

[DoctorAtomic]

15 hours ago, Hanahope said:

it used to be, 30 years ago, that any employer wanted people with college degrees.  Bank teller?  Need a degree.  Store manager?  Need a degree.  So where’s the blame on businesses that required even low level people to have a degree?  
My father was able to work as an electrical engineer at xerox never finishing college.  That’s was 60 years ago.  But businesses changed and now we have debt laden young adults.

This is a very good point. My rant before was about focusing strictly on a technical workforce development, which I do think you need some degree. I would still encourage people to go to community college at the least because you may learn about jobs you didn't know were out there or that you have skills you didn't know. I'm not seeing bank teller or shop manager necessarily needing a degree. 

I think the free community college would be a huge benefit for the country though. There's still trade school type programs at the community colleges. Over here, there's a successful machinist program and they place nearly everyone in gainful employment. 

 

[Hanahope]

8 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm not seeing bank teller or shop manager necessarily needing a degree. 

I don't think they need one either, but most do.  almost any job that paid more the minimum wage seems to need a college degree. and this is why parents made their kids go to college.  sure you can start some places without one, but most that are interested in some sort of promotion up the ladder, the employer wants to know if you have a college degree.  sometimes, it has nothing to do with having an education in any particular field, but just having a well-rounded education.

 

[Tara]

If there was any real evidence at all of Trump colluding with Russia, it would have been clearly and unequivocally explained. Instead, as Bill mentioned, we are to believe that Trump and Putin planned to get him elected by posting on Facebook. Seriously? It’s like believing Clinton was guilty with Whitewater.

I get what Bill was saying about a college education. Because so many more kids go to college today than 50 years ago, and so many treat it like a 4 year party, thousands of graduates finish with no job and have difficulty getting one. I see it all the time. I think what Bill was saying is that college is not a free ticket to success, and much less so than in the past.

Van Zandt was an awkward guest, to put it kindly. But once he warmed up a bit, he became somewhat interesting. The guy has led such an interesting life.

[Hanahope]

1 hour ago, Tara said:

If there was any real evidence at all of Trump colluding with Russia, it would have been clearly and unequivocally explained. Instead, as Bill mentioned, we are to believe that Trump and Putin planned to get him elected by posting on Facebook. Seriously? It’s like believing Clinton was guilty with Whitewater.

Except the Mueller report does have a lot of evidence of collusion.  And what is missing is because Mueller’s investigation was blocked (witnesses refused to testify, documents were not produced and he didn’t seek to enforce subpoenas) and he wanted to stop before it got too close to the 2018 election.  Then Barr lied about the report and refused to produce it to the public until his lies had spread so much the media had focused on the next shiney object. 

So it’s ok to crime as long as you win, obstruct and bury the investigation ?

 

[Mr. R0b0t]

On 10/8/2021 at 7:14 PM, Hanahope said:

Except the Mueller report does have a lot of evidence of collusion.  And what is missing is because Mueller’s investigation was blocked (witnesses refused to testify, documents were not produced and he didn’t seek to enforce subpoenas) and he wanted to stop before it got too close to the 2018 election.  Then Barr lied about the report and refused to produce it to the public until his lies had spread so much the media had focused on the next shiney object. 

So it’s ok to crime as long as you win, obstruct and bury the investigation ?

 

If I could like this comment 1000X I would.  There is enough in the Mueller report and through verifiable reporting to see what happened between the Russians and 45's campaign.  The administration also threw enough obfuscation into the mix (along with certain infotainment tv channels) to distract those who didn't want to bother with knowing the whole story.  Tiabbi has been a bit of a zamboni trying to whitewash over these things and I cannot figure out why. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by Mr. R0b0t

[Tara]

Mueller on collusion:
“We did not address ‘collusion,’ which is not a legal term,” Mueller added. “Rather, we focused on whether the evidence was sufficient to charge any member of the campaign with taking part in a criminal conspiracy. It was not.”

I think it is easy to make anything into what you want, as Bill and Tiabbi demonstrated.

[heatherchandler]

23 hours ago, Tara said:

If there was any real evidence at all of Trump colluding with Russia, it would have been clearly and unequivocally explained. Instead, as Bill mentioned, we are to believe that Trump and Putin planned to get him elected by posting on Facebook. Seriously? It’s like believing Clinton was guilty with Whitewater.

 

Right.  Tiabbi made some great points, and he’s obviously done the research into this.

I agree with Katherine, the CDC should be questioned, questioning authority is what intelligent people do.  I trust that they post factual info, but they can be purposely ambiguous. 

Edited October 9, 2021 by heatherchandler

[Hanahope]

9 hours ago, Tara said:

Mueller on collusion:
“We did not address ‘collusion,’ which is not a legal term,” Mueller added. “Rather, we focused on whether the evidence was sufficient to charge any member of the campaign with taking part in a criminal conspiracy. It was not.”

I think it is easy to make anything into what you want, as Bill and Tiabbi demonstrated.

Only because neither tfg nor Don jr would sit for questioning.  And Manafort, who worked with Russians, breached his plea deal and would not cooperate.  Mueller was hamstrung in his ability to investigate.  More evidence may very well have been found had the DOJ fully supported mueller and enforced subpoenas.  It’s not that there is no evidence, it’s that they could not get to it.

[heatherchandler]

On 10/9/2021 at 6:15 PM, Hanahope said:

Only because neither tfg nor Don jr would sit for questioning.  And Manafort, who worked with Russians, breached his plea deal and would not cooperate.  Mueller was hamstrung in his ability to investigate.  More evidence may very well have been found had the DOJ fully supported mueller and enforced subpoenas.  It’s not that there is no evidence, it’s that they could not get to it.

Or, because there is nothing to find.  

[Hanahope]

1 minute ago, heatherchandler said:

Or, because there is nothing to find.  

Well, we will never fully know will we because of the refusal to cooperate, refusal to support and then the pardons.  if there was nothing to find, then why hamstring the investigation?  wouldn't it have been better to have a full and complete investigation that absolutely proves there was nothing to find?  by refusing to cooperate and support the investigation, that must mean they were hiding something.  Hillary sat for 11 hours of questioning for Benghazi.  

[heatherchandler]

12 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Well, we will never fully know will we because of the refusal to cooperate, refusal to support and then the pardons.  if there was nothing to find, then why hamstring the investigation?  wouldn't it have been better to have a full and complete investigation that absolutely proves there was nothing to find?  by refusing to cooperate and support the investigation, that must mean they were hiding something.  Hillary sat for 11 hours of questioning for Benghazi.  

Ehhh if someone wanted to interview me for something I didn't do, I would not be interested in sitting around for questioning for 11 hours.

I am with Taibbi, I don't think there is anything there, and if there was anything it was probably ineptly done.  It's not like they were asking for the Russians to break into the voting system, it sounds like they were just interested in general support, nothing really wrong with that, and there was nothing these Russian people could do to change the outcome no matter what anyone intended.

 

[Hanahope]

5 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

it sounds like they were just interested in general support, nothing really wrong with that, and there was nothing these Russian people could do to change the outcome no matter what anyone intended.

Uh, yeah, that is a crime to accept foreign assistance in a federal election.  so maybe you need to read up on federal election laws.  

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Folks, 

Watch your tone.  Points have been made and opinions expressed.  Time to move on. 

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

Ehhh if someone wanted to interview me for something I didn't do, I would not be interested in sitting around for questioning for 11 hours.

 

I mean...I'm sure people who did do the thing are even less interested in being questioned? That's why we don't leave it up to them being into it.

Edited October 15, 2021 by sistermagpie

[heatherchandler]

15 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I mean...I'm sure people who did do the thing are even less interested in being questioned? That's why we don't leave it up to them being into it.

Apparently we do indeed leave it up to them.  No one pursued it.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

Apparently we do indeed leave it up to them.  No one pursued it.

I think that's one of the reasons it was such a sign of danger, yes. The differences between law, norm, enforced law etc. came up a lot and are still coming up again. ETA: And of course, it encourages everyone to just decide who they want to be guilty and that's all that matters.

Edited October 15, 2021 by sistermagpie

[Hanahope]

34 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

Apparently we do indeed leave it up to them.  No one pursued it.

yup its a problem when such things are left up to the witnesses and not pursued.