S05.E04: And the Clerk Had a Firm...

[Cranberry]

Quote

When a comedy streaming network executive, Del Cooper, asks Liz to conduct a sensitivity read on one of his comedians, the entire firm ends up fighting over how comedy and 'cancel culture' collide. Meanwhile, FBI agent Madeline Starkey goes after Kurt for his alleged involvement in the U.S. Capitol insurrection.

Original air date: July 15, 2021

[bobbyjoe]

What Diane said to Kurt about games is important.  There are things they can disagree with or even have fun debating.  Insurrection and terrorism though crosses that line.  Which is why I’m having serious trouble if we’re meant to feel sorry for Kurt or if we’re supposed to see him as somehow noble for what he’s doing.

The way it’s currently cast on the show, it’s as though it’s a betrayal by Diane that she turned in that guy, and now because of that Kurt is facing serious consequences.   But it’s actually not because of that, and I hope the show truly does remember that Diane gave Kurt the chance to do the right thing in the first place, and if he had, he wouldn’t be in the position he’s in.  

Since the show is making it pretty clear that Dylan Pike (I believe his name is) is guilty, then what else was Diane supposed to morally do: let a terrorist run around loose because her husband wouldn’t step up to the plate?  And Diane tried her absolute best to keep Kurt out of it while still doing the right thing.  Kurt’s loyalty isn’t moral if his friends are genuinely guilty of crimes.

I hope they are smarter than this, but if the show is trying to make us feel like what Diane did was wrong then, sorry, I’m never going to feel that way.  It was Kurt— and Kurt alone— who caused the mess he’s now in.  He’s made terrible choices here.

Edited July 16, 2021 by bobbyjoe

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, bobbyjoe said:

 

I hope they are smarter than this, but if the show is trying to make us feel like what Diane did was wrong then, sorry, I’m never going to feel that way.  It was Kurt— and Kurt alone— who caused the mess he’s now in.  He’s made terrible choices here.

Diane was not wrong to tell.  Diane was wrong not to tell Kurt exactly what she intended to do, while apparently leaving him in the dark as to why the investigation was suddenly happening.  Really, she should also have spoken to a criminal lawyer before calling the FBI with her tip.   

I do wonder if they originally intended to have Patti Nyholm (Martha Plimpton) as the AUSA instead of Nancy Crozier.  I recall the pregnancy shtick was something Patti would use, while Nancy did more of a "I'm a newer lawyer and don't understand anything," act.

[Broderbits]

3 hours ago, bobbyjoe said:

It was Kurt— and Kurt alone— who caused the mess he’s now in.  He’s made terrible choices here.

Not just here, he's made terrible choices since we first met him on The Good Wife. I'll never understand why Diane married him; she could have just had a physical relationship with him and not bound herself to him legally.

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

do wonder if they originally intended to have Patti Nyholm (Martha Plimpton) as the AUSA instead of Nancy Crozier.

I don't think Patti Nyholm would take the pay cut or want to play by the rules required as an AUSA. Nancy "I'm a Michigan girl" Crozier makes more sense. Guess they couldn't get AUSA Josh Perotti either.

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Diane was not wrong to tell.  Diane was wrong not to tell Kurt exactly what she intended to do, while apparently leaving him in the dark as to why the investigation was suddenly happening.  Really, she should also have spoken to a criminal lawyer before calling the FBI with her tip.  

If Kurt was really so stupid that he didn't anticipate what Diane would do, it would be even more stupid from Diane to tell him beforehand, because then he would have time to warn his "friend" who had fled and Diane's tip would have been in wain.

About this group to who he "gave adcice": is Kurt really innocent or is he just stupid? 

As for the FBI, it it just to them to give immunity to anyone who wants to inform on his comrades, regardless who is most guilty?

[cardigirl]

12 hours ago, bobbyjoe said:

What Diane said to Kurt about games is important.  There are things they can disagree with or even have fun debating.  Insurrection and terrorism though crosses that line.  Which is why I’m having serious trouble if we’re meant to feel sorry for Kurt or if we’re supposed to see him as somehow noble for what he’s doing.

The way it’s currently cast on the show, it’s as though it’s a betrayal by Diane that she turned in that guy, and now because of that Kurt is facing serious consequences.   But it’s actually not because of that, and I hope the show truly does remember that Diane gave Kurt the chance to do the right thing in the first place, and if he had, he wouldn’t be in the position he’s in.  

Since the show is making it pretty clear that Dylan Pike (I believe his name is) is guilty, then what else was Diane supposed to morally do: let a terrorist run around loose because her husband wouldn’t step up to the plate?  And Diane tried her absolute best to keep Kurt out of it while still doing the right thing.  Kurt’s loyalty isn’t moral if his friends are genuinely guilty of crimes.

I hope they are smarter than this, but if the show is trying to make us feel like what Diane did was wrong then, sorry, I’m never going to feel that way.  It was Kurt— and Kurt alone— who caused the mess he’s now in.  He’s made terrible choices here.

 

10 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Diane was not wrong to tell.  Diane was wrong not to tell Kurt exactly what she intended to do, while apparently leaving him in the dark as to why the investigation was suddenly happening.  Really, she should also have spoken to a criminal lawyer before calling the FBI with her tip.   

I do wonder if they originally intended to have Patti Nyholm (Martha Plimpton) as the AUSA instead of Nancy Crozier.  I recall the pregnancy shtick was something Patti would use, while Nancy did more of a "I'm a newer lawyer and don't understand anything," act.

I don't think we're supposed to feel sorry for Kurt, but Diane could have given the information to the investigation anonymously in other ways. She might have thought a burner phone would have protected her from being traced, but apparently it did not. Betrayal is the topic and it's being looked at from all sides. Did Kurt knowingly betray his country? After the fact, before the fact?  Maybe he was trying to figure out just how culpable he was before doing anything. He didn't let Diane in on just what he had been doing, so there's a betrayal there, unless he's protecting her. Diane betrayed Kurt's trust because she believed that the right thing to do was more important than his request to leave it alone. She had options. She could have tried to talk to Kurt about it further, she could have investigated it further, she could have had someone else make the phone call, or send the letter, or inform the investigation. 

I love that the show is going here. I think this will be a great story line to follow.  

[txhorns79]

42 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

If Kurt was really so stupid that he didn't anticipate what Diane would do, it would be even more stupid from Diane to tell him beforehand, because then he would have time to warn his "friend" who had fled and Diane's tip would have been in wain.

I don't know what Kurt thought Diane would do with their conversation.  I'm not at the point where I'm ready to say Kurt is stupid unless he anticipated all her movements.  I mean, I think it says something that Diane realized how screwed she was when Nancy played the tape of her giving the tip.  I think if she believed Kurt would have anticipated her doing that, she wouldn't have clearly freaked out so much when she realized Kurt was going to hear the tape.    

34 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

I love that the show is going here. I think this will be a great story line to follow.  

I like the storyline as well.  There is real tension between Diane and Kurt, and it is not clear how they are going to reconcile this.  I don't think Kurt would purposefully train people with regards to the Insurrection.  However, I do wonder if his involvement may be deeper than he is currently letting on. 

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't know what Kurt thought Diane would do with their conversation.  I'm not at the point where I'm ready to say Kurt is stupid unless he anticipated all her movements.  I mean, I think it says something that Diane realized how screwed she was when Nancy played the tape of her giving the tip.  I think if she believed Kurt would have anticipated her doing that, she wouldn't have clearly freaked out so much when she realized Kurt was going to hear the tape. 

Good points.

Yet, it think it would have odd if Kurt hadn't at all suspected Diana after he learned that his comrade had been caught.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Diane betrayed Kurt's trust because she believed that the right thing to do was more important than his request to leave it alone. She had options. She could have tried to talk to Kurt about it further, she could have investigated it further, she could have had someone else make the phone call, or send the letter, or inform the investigation.

What if she though: it's urgent that this fellow who had guilty of insurrection was caught so swiftly as possibly.

[cardigirl]

23 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

What if she though: it's urgent that this fellow who had guilty of insurrection was caught so swiftly as possibly.

Oh, I think it's clear that's what she thought, but she wasn't smart about how she did it. She didn't stop to wonder why Kurt was so reticent, she thought he was just being stubborn?  As someone else said earlier, she should have consulted with other legal experts about her best course of action. 

Maybe Kurt is that kind of Republican, although he's not ever been portrayed that way before. And now, Diane's got a clearly creepy client who thinks the FBI is using Kurt's case as a means of getting at his files.  It's all so messy. 

Edited July 16, 2021 by cardigirl

[ifionlyknew]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I don't think Kurt would purposefully train people with regards to the Insurrection.  However, I do wonder if his involvement may be deeper than he is currently letting on. 

If I'm not mistaken I think Kurt burned the list of the names of people he trained in firearm use because he didn't want the FBI to investigate people Kurt thought had nothing to do with the insurrection.  

I remember at some point Diane asked Kurt if he had voted for Trump. I don't remember if it was after the 2016 election or the 2020 election.  He said no.  He did go on a hunting trip with Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum but there is no way Kurt would have been part of an insurrection.  

39 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Yet, it think it would have odd if Kurt hadn't at all suspected Diana after he learned that his comrade had been caught.

He had to have suspected.  Maybe he didn't want to believe it but I have a hard time believing he was shocked. Maybe surprised that Diane called the FBI herself but not that she was the one who gave them Pike's name.  

 

[txhorns79]

56 minutes ago, ifionlyknew said:

If I'm not mistaken I think Kurt burned the list of the names of people he trained in firearm use because he didn't want the FBI to investigate people Kurt thought had nothing to do with the insurrection.  

I might be wrong, but I thought he said it was a list of members of his gun club or something? 

Also, while I'm kind of enjoying Judge Wackner (and think Mandy Patinkin has a charm that makes the character easier to accept), I want someone to tell his investor that Wackner isn't disrupting anything in the legal system.  He's just doing arbitrations.  Wackner's methods and lack of training might make the process into something farcical, but in the end, it's just an arbitration with a wacky arbitrator.     

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, ifionlyknew said:

If I'm not mistaken I think Kurt burned the list of the names of people he trained in firearm use because he didn't want the FBI to investigate people Kurt thought had nothing to do with the insurrection.

But how could he know it for sure? After all, he knows that one of his group had done it, so why can't there be others?

Does he believe that FBI can't do its job - or that they don't care if people are guilty or innocent? Or does he think that the whole system is bent and only personal loyalty matters (even towards a "friend" who has informed on him in order to save himself - that is, if FBI talks the truth)?

[ifionlyknew]

10 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

But how could he know it for sure? After all, he knows that one of his group had done it, so why can't there be others?

I don't know what Kurt knows.  I would hope he wouldn't knowingly protect people who actively participated in the insurrection.  

[Hanahope]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

About this group to who he "gave adcice": is Kurt really innocent or is he just stupid? 

I do want to know what kind of advice Kurt did give, when, what context.  Kurt doesn't come across as stupid, nor a TFG loyalist (though he is definitely a republican loyalist - i could see him doing what he thinks is necessary to promote republican 'values').  I can't see Kurt giving advice on how to infiltrate a government office after the Nov. 20 elections - he had to know what that would involve.  but maybe the gun club guys got Kurt drunk one night and they were "joking" about what to do and caught Kurt with his guard down?

Agree that Diane either should have had someone else make the phone call, or disguise her voice (its pretty distinctive - especially since she had to know about prior wiretaps from TGW that the feds had her voice).  and then she should have told Kurt she reported Pike when they learned about his arrest and allegations against Kurt.  

Kurt is obviously thinking about McCarthyism and that's why he doesn't want to name names.  But like Diane said, a line has definitely been crossed and if a re-do (which at least seems quite plausible atm) is going to be avoided, those involved need to be found.   McCarthy never advocated an armed insurrection.  

I love how "judge" Wackner conducted his voir dire, sussing out liars.

 

 

[Roseanna]

On 7/16/2021 at 7:03 AM, Broderbits said:

I'll never understand why Diane married him; she could have just had a physical relationship with him and not bound herself to him legally.

Their relationship isn't just about sex, it's also emotional. Their commitment seems deep. F.ex. when that Ruth Balder Ginzburg died and Diane knew that a new Conservative judge would be appointed in the Highest Court, Kurt comforted Diane. He felt empathy towards her grief, although they disagreed. 

It's also possible that the marriage had practical reasons, but I don't know US laws.

[Roseanna]

On 7/16/2021 at 3:03 AM, bobbyjoe said:

The way it’s currently cast on the show, it’s as though it’s a betrayal by Diane that she turned in that guy, and now because of that Kurt is facing serious consequences.

I don't think so. I wholly agree with Diane.

However, loyalty vs. betrayal seem to be a general theme in this season since in ep. 1:

Adrian Boseman heard his girlfriend, the judge, speak in ZOOM and read her emails that about Julius' trial and told Diane who represented Julius. Adrian clearly betrayed her girlfriend's trust but she had first betrayed her duty as judge.

After Boseman left and Biden won White House, Diane's position in Lockhart & Reddick is shaky as the firm should be "black". Liz has promised to Diana to support her so long it depends on her, but Adrian reminded her about his father's heritage. What is more important to Liz: solidarity between women or solidarity between Afro-Americans?

[Broderbits]

10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Their relationship isn't just about sex, it's also emotional. Their commitment seems deep.

When they first met it was a case of "opposites attract" - Diane was a feminist and a Democrat, Kurt was a Sarah Palin supporter. It was an intense physical relationship. Diane asked him to marry her and he agreed, but it was pretty clear that he would have been ok with maintaining the status quo. And he had a least one affair after they were married, for which I do not recall an apology (whereas Diane was always apologizing for stuff, like trying to get Kurt more money for selling his business). A little comforting is the least he can do.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Jay is still hallucinating. Is that an actual symptom in long-haulers?

Did I miss something? How did Liz end up in bed with a potential client? I didn't like her doing that.

 

[Roseanna]

15 hours ago, Broderbits said:

When they first met it was a case of "opposites attract" - Diane was a feminist and a Democrat, Kurt was a Sarah Palin supporter. It was an intense physical relationship. Diane asked him to marry her and he agreed, but it was pretty clear that he would have been ok with maintaining the status quo. And he had a least one affair after they were married, for which I do not recall an apology (whereas Diane was always apologizing for stuff, like trying to get Kurt more money for selling his business). A little comforting is the least he can do.

Obviously it wasn't a perfect relationship, but who in the series have such? 

In the beginning of the show Diane lost her savings and she was advised that Kurt (they were separated because of his affair) should divorce her in order to avoid to lose his money too (I didn't fully understand the reason, didn't they have a pre-nuptial agreement?) But Kurt refused which IMO tells that he has feelings for Diane.

[Scout Finch]

I thought the show would end with the standard trope where Diane goes home and either it's empty or Kurt's packing a suitcase and leaves. By the way, they don't live in a regular apartment, do they? It looks much more like a hotel suite.

[ifionlyknew]

11 hours ago, Scout Finch said:

I thought the show would end with the standard trope where Diane goes home and either it's empty or Kurt's packing a suitcase and leaves. By the way, they don't live in a regular apartment, do they? It looks much more like a hotel suite.

I thought it was a house. A townhouse maybe?  Didn't we see Kurt one time seeing someone parked outside?

[Scout Finch]

8 hours ago, ifionlyknew said:

I thought it was a house. A townhouse maybe?  Didn't we see Kurt one time seeing someone parked outside?

It just seems strange to have an open concept bedroom/living room in a regular residence. There's no way to close off the bedroom when you have guests over.

[Irlandesa]

On 7/17/2021 at 9:56 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Did I miss something? How did Liz end up in bed with a potential client? I didn't like her doing that.

I just binged the series and the show seems to just jump into stories sometimes.  I think Liz was already sleeping with the guy before he became a client of the firm.  She was in bed with someone when Diane called her about the upcoming raid.  I think that's why he decided to go with her firm. 

I don't know what the ethics of that are but I imagine Wayne Brady's character choosing to go to a firm of the woman he was sleeping with is different than a lawyer starting to sleep with her client after he hired her.  But maybe not.

On 7/18/2021 at 2:16 AM, Roseanna said:

In the beginning of the show Diane lost her savings and she was advised that Kurt (they were separated because of his affair) should divorce her in order to avoid to lose his money too (I didn't fully understand the reason, didn't they have a pre-nuptial agreement?) But Kurt refused which IMO tells that he has feelings for Diane.

I think there were tax implications or something like that which is why a divorce was being recommended.

But IIRC, Kurt also saved Diane's biscuit when she fell in with that subversive group looking to hack the voting machines, among other things.

[Milburn Stone]

I can imagine Kurt saying to his gun trainees something like, "The 2nd Amendment is there for a reason, because the people have the right to defend themselves against their government," and one or more of them interpreting that this gave them permission to insurrect. He had no idea they would take it that far, but Dylan Pike might be telling his truth as well, because that's what he heard in Kurt's words.

Who knows what we'll find out, but that seems plausible to me.

I don't think for one minute that the show wants us to think that Diane was bad to do what she did. I do think the show is depicting Diane having second thoughts about what she did. That's different.

How many episodes do we have to look forward to?

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

I think Liz was already sleeping with the guy before he became a client of the firm.  She was in bed with someone when Diane called her about the upcoming raid.  I think that's why he decided to go with her firm. 

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was the Wayne Brady character who was in bed with Liz when Diane called. That's why later at the office they were giving each other knowing looks and making small double entendres. It looked to me like quid pro quo: she slept with him and then he decided to go with her firm. Note how easily he dropped her and her firm when things didn't pan out the way he wanted. (It was a dumb job anyway, IMO. How can you analyze humor on a legal basis?)

In the end I think Liz must've felt like she whored herself out for nothing. Not trying to be a prude here; I think Liz can have sex with whoever she wants as along as they're a consenting adult. But it in this case the timing and circumstances made it look like she exchanged sex for work for her firm. I'm thinking that's not a practice she wants to get into the habit of. Her firm could start getting a certain reputation that might cause problems for the other women in the firm when they're dealing with potential clients.

[Scout Finch]

On 7/19/2021 at 6:11 AM, ifionlyknew said:

I thought it was a house. A townhouse maybe?  Didn't we see Kurt one time seeing someone parked outside?

Okay, you're right. In the episode that just aired today there's a scene in their kitchen and a dining room in the background. Still, the bedroom is in a strange location.

[statsgirl]

In the first segment, there was a nice pan past Kurt's lit gun display to Kurt and Diane in bed.  The kind of display that is usually used for art.

It makes sende that Kurt would want Julius the Republican to represent him rather than his wife. It will drive Diane crazy being out of the loop.

I am really enjoying Mandy Patinkin and court 9 1/2. I want him to have a scene with Wallace Shawn though. (Other than his hair growing greyer, Shawn doesn't seem to have aged in the last 30 years.)

On 7/20/2021 at 8:29 PM, Milburn Stone said:

How many episodes do we have to look forward to?

10 for the season I think.

[Irlandesa]

On 7/21/2021 at 8:13 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Note how easily he dropped her and her firm when things didn't pan out the way he wanted. (It was a dumb job anyway, IMO. How can you analyze humor on a legal basis?)

Did he do any of those things?

[marinw]

Oh Diane. You tried to do the right thing. 

How did the FBI track down the identity of a person making a call on a "Burner" phone? Some sort of vioce-recognition? Or is Diane's vioce that recognizable? In retrospeck, Diane should have asked or paid some random person to make the call.

Edited July 24, 2021 by marinw

[statsgirl]

I love that Wackner is quite literally making elevator pitches.

2 hours ago, marinw said:

How did the FBI track down the identity of a person making a call on a "Burner" phone? Some sort of vioce-recognition? Or is Diane's vioce that recognizable?

I hope that it's one of the ridiculous things that the show does for plot. Anonymous tips should remain anonymous.

[Medicine Crow]

I dislike Wayne Brady & he isn't believable in any serious scenario, IMHO.  But the show was interesting.

[love2lovebadtv]

On 7/17/2021 at 1:34 AM, Roseanna said:

Their relationship isn't just about sex, it's also emotional. Their commitment seems deep. F.ex. when that Ruth Balder Ginzburg died and Diane knew that a new Conservative judge would be appointed in the Highest Court, Kurt comforted Diane. He felt empathy towards her grief, although they disagreed. 

It's also possible that the marriage had practical reasons, but I don't know US laws.

I remember The Good Wife episodes when they met and Diane was absolutely smitten. I think it's a realistic portrayal of loving someone whose politics are completely different. 

On 7/17/2021 at 10:56 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Jay is still hallucinating. Is that an actual symptom in long-haulers?

Did I miss something? How did Liz end up in bed with a potential client? I didn't like her doing that.

 

I think were already acquainted when he came to the firm for legal support. 

On 7/18/2021 at 3:16 AM, Roseanna said:

Obviously it wasn't a perfect relationship, but who in the series have such? 

In the beginning of the show Diane lost her savings and she was advised that Kurt (they were separated because of his affair) should divorce her in order to avoid to lose his money too (I didn't fully understand the reason, didn't they have a pre-nuptial agreement?) But Kurt refused which IMO tells that he has feelings for Diane.

I think they definitely love each other. I love that they don't agree because it's so realistic.

On 7/22/2021 at 2:34 PM, Scout Finch said:

Okay, you're right. In the episode that just aired today there's a scene in their kitchen and a dining room in the background. Still, the bedroom is in a strange location.

I thought they had a master suite in their home and that's why there seemed to be a living room off from their bedroom. 

But if that's not the case, then it looks like a studio apartment that's too small for 2 people - especially 2 mature, professional people who could use individual home offices or, at least a designated space for work. Is Kurt really keeping his gun display in the common area? Both Dian and Kurt have serious business that doesn't belong in the living room.

[ShellySelf]

On 7/16/2021 at 12:57 PM, Hanahope said:

I do want to know what kind of advice Kurt did give, when, what context.  Kurt doesn't come across as stupid, nor a TFG loyalist (though he is definitely a republican loyalist - i could see him doing what he thinks is necessary to promote republican 'values').  I can't see Kurt giving advice on how to infiltrate a government office after the Nov. 20 elections - he had to know what that would involve.  but maybe the gun club guys got Kurt drunk one night and they were "joking" about what to do and caught Kurt with his guard down?

Sorry for responding so late. I’m a few weeks behind.
 

Didn’t they do this type of story line in TGW with Cary Argos and Lemond Bishop’s men?  He was arrested and almost went to prison for telling drug carriers how to skirt the law…

[Anela]

I’m going to have to watch this again, because I was really stressed when I tried to watch. I rewound it three times. 
I can’t see Kurt being involved in insurrection, but I don’t know what much about his character.