Do You Consider Yourself A Feminist?: Why Or Why Not?

[chocolatine]

8 hours ago, supposebly said:

Interesting discussion. I wonder if there are local differences in the use? And how would womxn be pronounced?

Apparently it's supposed to be pronounced the same as woman or women depending on the context. Which makes even less sense to spell it that way. Some say it's to avoid the connection to man/men, but if it's still pronounced the same way, then there's still that connection, isn't there? Also, it's not in every language that he word for woman is the derivation of the word for man. Using your German example, man is Mann and woman is Frau.

Mostly, it just irks me that some people have nothing more productive to do than come up with cringy terminology and use it to terrorize the rest of us.

[ParadoxLost]

17 hours ago, chocolatine said:

The worst part is, the head of HR was "chief diversity officer" at a Fortune 500 company before he joined our company, so why is he using such outdated, and to many people, offensive, terminology?

I believe that most corporate DEI programs are just to tick the ESG box for an investment bank, sprinkled in with a few true believers.  My company has a number of DEI meetings and policies that manage to be simultaneously racist and sexist to everyone all at once, with a smattering of good and helpful trainings.

[chocolatine]

31 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I believe that most corporate DEI programs are just to tick the ESG box for an investment bank, sprinkled in with a few true believers.  My company has a number of DEI meetings and policies that manage to be simultaneously racist and sexist to everyone all at once, with a smattering of good and helpful trainings.

Yes, exactly like that. We've also had a high turnover of HR and DEI personnel because most of them create more division than inclusion.

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

I believe that most corporate DEI programs are just to tick the ESG box for an investment bank, sprinkled in with a few true believers.  My company has a number of DEI meetings and policies that manage to be simultaneously racist and sexist to everyone all at once, with a smattering of good and helpful trainings.

And people don't acknowledge that they're being racist/sexist/homophobic/whateverist or phobic.  I've tried to tell a group that they're not taking international perspectives into consideration (and that's important in a corporate environment...and even more so in the world of education).  When you bring that up, ohhhh....you're being too self-centred!!  You're being anecdotal!!!  What?  And here I thought I was being general (e.g. take into consideration people who speak English as a second/third/etc language.  Or different perspectives/ways of saying things even if they DO speak English, but are from another part of the world (the British "have a Chinese" situation comes to mind).

[Bethany]

Mansplainers.  Do not tell me how to do my job.  Unless you are my manager or the freaking National Librarian of Canada.  I'm sure women are guilty of doing this as well but IME anyway it's always men.  Deep breaths....

[JTMacc99]

On 5/19/2023 at 8:33 PM, Bethany said:

I'm sure women are guilty of doing this as well but IME anyway it's always men.

Women rarely mainspain things. The need to demonstrate competence all the time isn't built into the way you communicate with each other the way it is with us. (Women mainsplainers exist, but they have a different way of constantly telling people "look at how good I am at this.")

For what it's worth, the guy mainsplaining things to you also does the same thing to us. But we have a very different reaction to it, because demonstrating our competence in something is very much how we assign our status with each other.

Boys, pretty much from the start, are encouraged to develop our relationships with other boys through activities. Sports, scouts, school, video games, these are where boys make friends. And the currency we use to rank our status with our friends is competency in the activities.

As adults, where do men make new friends? Bowling league, other parents because our daughters have been on the same softball teams for years, maybe a Lions club, and again all of these relationships are based on proximity and not some other real bond. 

So we connect in circles of circles of competence, and we establish our pecking order by our levels of competence. Demonstrating that we don't know what is going on is undesirable. Hell, the stereotype that "men don't ask for directions" is based on exactly this. 

So for what it's worth, evolved men can both appreciate that a woman is highly competent in something AND also restrain himself from demonstrating that he is also competent in the same thing. 

Which is not what he would naturally do with another man. 

[PRgal]

Girls/women establish pecking orders as well.  And it starts as young as, well, daycare.  Can't do something?  Well, you suck.  It gets worse as girls get older, and often, it has to do with looks (same for boys.  I worry about my skinny, short-ish son, who may be seen as "not enough" due to size.  He might even develop an eating disorder because he's likely not going to be one of those bulky guys, ones girls are conditioned to like).  Some kids don't care, and that's probably a good thing.  I was likely at the bottom of the heap in high school thanks to interests and my pizza face (an issue that carried into my 20s).  However, the difference is we're culturally allowed to share our emotions.  But if a guy says he's angry, he's deemed more violent than a woman is doing the same thing.  I often feel for the guys who see themselves as "incels" - I was that, but a girl.  In university, I mostly hid in my dorm room, hanging out on musical theatre forums.  Those people were my "friends" - until made myself join a swing dancing club.  I thought that was the only way I could even come close to meeting men.  LOL.  It was really tough for me, but I did it.  Still didn't end up in a relationship, but at least I got to see guys??  I can't bring myself to openly talk about this in real life because I'd just be dismissed, but online is different.  

[peacheslatour]

Quote

 But if a guy says he's angry, he's deemed more violent than a woman is doing the same thing.  I often feel for the guys who see themselves as "incels" - I was that, but a girl.  In university, 

The difference is, that rage and general anger are not considered emotions to men. They can punch holes in walls and scream and rant at the top of their lungs but women are the emotional ones, right? And as for you sympathising with incels, hey women get lonely too but I bet you didn't decide to hate men, degrade them and blame them for your loneliness.

[PRgal]

23 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

The difference is, that rage and general anger are not considered emotions to men. They can punch holes in walls and scream and rant at the top of their lungs but women are the emotional ones, right? And as for you sympathising with incels, hey women get lonely too but I bet you didn't decide to hate men, degrade them and blame them for your loneliness.

No, but I did wonder what was wrong with ME.  Other than the skin issues I had, I didn't think I was ugly (hey, if those zits were covered, no one would know, right?  Truth be told, I didn't know how to approach men/boys and I really wanted THEM to approach me.  But they didn't).  I guess I was just very old fashioned (still am).  I eventually had success online.

[theredhead77]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

hey women get lonely too but I bet you didn't decide to hate men, degrade them and blame them for your loneliness.

And murder them when they don't want to date you. 

[Anela]

I used to sympathize with some incels, when I first found a message board about relationships, and all of these guys kept saying that women had no troubles finding a relationship, or getting sex or whatever. I commiserated, and told them I did, and I got really tired of them telling me I had to be lying (or exceptionally ugly, if I was telling the truth). 

There was one guy who, after one in the news went on a killing spree, decided that the State he lived in (the poster I knew), should help all men to get girlfriends, so that wouldn't happen anymore. 

[Bastet]

4 hours ago, PRgal said:

No, but I did wonder what was wrong with ME.

Which is the exact opposite of what incels do. 

If a group earns on a spot on the Anti-Defamation League's website, they certainly are not going to earn any sympathy from me.  They're a hate group.

[Anela]

The main thing I remember about one of the incel boards that I found, that was full of pick-up artist BS, was that most of the guys there, didn't respect or like girls when they wouldn't sleep with them, and they didn't like or respect them, once they did start sleeping with them. It was then too easy, and they said the girls didn't demand enough respect (or deserve it, one or the other). Be hard to get, but sleep with them. 🙄

[RealHousewife]

On 5/29/2023 at 7:05 PM, Anela said:

The main thing I remember about one of the incel boards that I found, that was full of pick-up artist BS, was that most of the guys there, didn't respect or like girls when they wouldn't sleep with them, and they didn't like or respect them, once they did start sleeping with them. It was then too easy, and they said the girls didn't demand enough respect (or deserve it, one or the other). Be hard to get, but sleep with them. 🙄

A lot of people shit on feminists. The biggest caricature of that angry, man-hating feminist is still so harmless compared to these incel men.

I’ve never understood men slut shaming women they would want nothing more than to quickly sleep with. These guys really think they must be oh so special? Please. 

[peacheslatour]

3 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

A lot of people shit on feminists. The biggest caricature of that angry, man-hating feminist is still so harmless compared to these incel men.

I’ve never understood men slut shaming women they would want nothing more than to quickly sleep with. These guys really think they must be oh so special? Please. 

They want you until you turn them down and then you're the ugliest sluttiest slut who ever slutted.

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 5/18/2023 at 9:51 AM, supposebly said:

As a woman approaching menopause, I might get annoyed with the term menstruating person, though. Older women are invisible enough as it is.

The other day I saw a bandit sign in Chattanooga on the side of the road, with "Support All Menstruators" hand-written on it.  Presumably the other 50% of the female population can shift for themselves.

[lasu]

On 6/5/2023 at 2:02 PM, StatisticalOutlier said:

The other day I saw a bandit sign in Chattanooga on the side of the road, with "Support All Menstruators" hand-written on it. 

I wonder if they realize they are accidentally supporting some trans men.

[SoMuchTV]

1 hour ago, lasu said:

I wonder if they realize they are accidentally supporting some trans men.

Maybe I misunderstood but I thought that was the point.

At any rate, as a former menstruating person, I have absolutely no problem with the idea of "Supporting all menstruators".  It can be a pain in the neck for the most fortunate of us, and there are any number of societal issues that can make it even worse.

[JustHereForFood]

On 5/22/2023 at 5:38 PM, JTMacc99 said:

Women rarely mainspain things. The need to demonstrate competence all the time isn't built into the way you communicate with each other the way it is with us. (Women mainsplainers exist, but they have a different way of constantly telling people "look at how good I am at this.")

For what it's worth, the guy mainsplaining things to you also does the same thing to us. But we have a very different reaction to it, because demonstrating our competence in something is very much how we assign our status with each other.

Boys, pretty much from the start, are encouraged to develop our relationships with other boys through activities. Sports, scouts, school, video games, these are where boys make friends. And the currency we use to rank our status with our friends is competency in the activities.

As adults, where do men make new friends? Bowling league, other parents because our daughters have been on the same softball teams for years, maybe a Lions club, and again all of these relationships are based on proximity and not some other real bond. 

So we connect in circles of circles of competence, and we establish our pecking order by our levels of competence. Demonstrating that we don't know what is going on is undesirable. Hell, the stereotype that "men don't ask for directions" is based on exactly this. 

So for what it's worth, evolved men can both appreciate that a woman is highly competent in something AND also restrain himself from demonstrating that he is also competent in the same thing. 

Which is not what he would naturally do with another man. 

As usual, archaic and toxic prejudices and stereotypes about gender harm everyone.

[RealHousewife]

I recently had a conversation with a man who couldn't come up with one way women have it harder. You bring carrying, delivering, and nursing babies, and he says it's not easy being a dad. You bring up what our bodies go through and how period can be painful , he brings up all his physical ailments. He even insisted the pressures women feel to have perfect looks come from women, and he said men feel the exact same pressure. Mind you, this man talks an awful lot about how women should look. So full of it. 

I know men have many problems, and I'd never dismiss them. But some of our struggles are unique. I wish I could find a young George Carlin to marry. 

 

[Laura Holt]

1 hour ago, RealHousewife said:

But some of our struggles are unique.

The big one for me isn't pregnancy or childbirth (after all this is not something every woman will experience) but almost all women have periods.  I just cannot think of anything that men have to experience that is in any way comparable.  Any man who handwaves this away is going on my list.

[RealHousewife]

27 minutes ago, Laura Holt said:

The big one for me isn't pregnancy or childbirth (after all this is not something every woman will experience) but almost all women have periods.  I just cannot think of anything that men have to experience that is in any way comparable.  Any man who handwaves this away is going on my list.

Yeah I’m not a mother myself, may never be. Periods are annoying and can be painful for many of us. But we have to keep it to ourselves, work the same hours, pay for products, all this stuff men don’t have to deal with. 

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

I recently had a conversation with a man who couldn't come up with one way women have it harder.

Give him a copy of Everyday Sexism.

He doesn't sound particularly open to enlightenment, but plenty of better men than him had their eyes opened by that project to the fact sexism is so pervasive women inhabit a completely different world than men, even if everything else about them is the same.

[RealHousewife]

58 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Give him a copy of Everyday Sexism.

He doesn't sound particularly open to enlightenment, but plenty of better men than him had their eyes opened by that project to the fact sexism is so pervasive women inhabit a completely different world than men, even if everything else about them is the same.

That sounds like a good read, thank you.

I shouldn't be surprised by this particular man's takes. If we discuss racism, his takes are very all lives matter. If we discuss the gay community, he says of course there's nothing wrong with being gay, but he doesn't think they face much discrimination these days. (I know we've made a lot of progress, but come on.) It's like because of all the stuff he's gone through as a straight white male, he can't admit some people might experience things he hasn't/doesn't. 

Edited July 8, 2023 by RealHousewife

[Annber03]

Yeah, just reading your description of him has me rolling my eyes. I've seen guys like this before, and I have zero time or patience for them and their willful ignorance (to put it mildly). 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Laura Holt said:

The big one for me isn't pregnancy or childbirth (after all this is not something every woman will experience) but almost all women have periods.  I just cannot think of anything that men have to experience that is in any way comparable.  Any man who handwaves this away is going on my list.

One of the more entertaining social media trends is men realizing just how painful periods are by using the period cramp simulator. 

1 hour ago, RealHousewife said:

It's like because of all the stuff he's gone through as a straight white male, he can't admit some people might experience things he hasn't/doesn't. 

This is one thing that really drives me up a wall. Mostly I can deal with different beliefs but I can’t understand the inability to even attempt to see another’s perspective. Although I suppose it makes sense when you live in a world that caters to your perspective. 

[Laura Holt]

What drives me crazy are the people who play gotcha in terms of feminism.  You know the type "She says she's a feminist but she took her husband's name" or "Some feminist she is all she does is office admin work"  The maddening thing is this usually isn't coming from women who consider themselves feminists and have set an impossible standard for what a "real" feminist should be.  It's from people trying to prove (I guess) that there is no such thing as feminism in the first place.

[Jaded]

[PRgal]

Something interesting popped into my feed this morning:

 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/06/europe/powerful-female-leader-ivory-lady-scn
 

If women did play more active roles like this back then, I wonder when things changed.  Like, did one guy suddenly say “ladies, you can’t do this anymore!! Stay home, cook and raise kids.”?  And how did it spread all over the world like that?   China’s most well-known philosopher even said that women and servants were hard to deal with, for example.

[Dianaofthehunt]

I’m a feminist because I have a functioning brain.

There is no “they;” if you’re talking about feminists, you’re referring to me.

Men:  Catch up to us. We won’t wait for you.

 

 

[JustHereForFood]

13 hours ago, PRgal said:

Something interesting popped into my feed this morning:

 

https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/06/europe/powerful-female-leader-ivory-lady-scn
 

If women did play more active roles like this back then, I wonder when things changed.  Like, did one guy suddenly say “ladies, you can’t do this anymore!! Stay home, cook and raise kids.”?  And how did it spread all over the world like that?   China’s most well-known philosopher even said that women and servants were hard to deal with, for example.

I'm not saying that Abrahamic religions are the sole culprit, but a huge chunk of the problem lies right there, IMO.

[PRgal]

18 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

I'm not saying that Abrahamic religions are the sole culprit, but a huge chunk of the problem lies right there, IMO.

And from Confucianism.  I doubt Confucius had any contact with Jews in, like, 500 BCE.

[theredhead77]

17 hours ago, PRgal said:

And how did it spread all over the world like that?  

In the same way, the "Indian Shooting Star is a free Tootsie Pop", and "Mikey from the Life Cereal commercial died by eating Pop Rocks and drink Coke" urban legends spread before the internet. Magic.

[isalicat]

If you read the article about the "Ivory Lady" all the way to the end, you get this:

"While the skeleton’s biological sex is not in dispute, Gowland cautioned that nothing is known about the Ivory Lady’s gender identity, and scholars shouldn’t impose modern gender norms onto past populations.

“It could be that they had some special status that was more significant than their gender identity or … there was not a binary gender system,” she noted."

So leaping to the conclusion that females generally were not of lesser status in that day/time may be just that, a leap of wishful thinking. I don't know of a non- technologically advanced society that elevated women to equal status (in things such as decision making for example) because before technology, strength and endurance were pretty much the priority for human survival. Please do correct me if you have an example that proves me wrong.

[peacheslatour]

This kind of shit. *sigh*

 

[Mondrianyone]

If you're having one of those days where everything seems like shit, you read this post and can say, "Well, at least I've never had that argument," and that's something to be grateful for.

[RealHousewife]

Lmao I can’t . . .

[Browncoat]

I want that guy to cite his sources.  Where on earth did he get that notion?

[Annber03]

....that...is a special kind of stupid, that is. WOW. That's sad. 

I would be reconsidering my relationship with a guy who was that dumb. 

[JustHereForFood]

She could get back at him and say that his dick gets blood clots or something when he gets hard. Then, let him prove her wrong.

[peacheslatour]

4 minutes ago, JustHereForFood said:

She could get back at him and say that his dick gets blood clots or something when he gets hard. Then, let him prove her wrong.

Or that's where he stores his poop. That's why it comes out sausage shaped!

[supposebly]

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

This kind of shit. *sigh*

 

I hope she dumped him. 

[RealHousewife]

I know men can be ignorant about women's bodies. Hell, we can be ignorant about our own bodies. But that's just a whole other level!

[supposebly]

There is ignorant and then there is refusing to believe facts because they think they know better. Better than science and better than the person who actually has said boobs. It takes mansplaining to a whole new level.

Such a waste of space and time, that one.

 

[Jaded]

What kind of take do the rest of you have about this? I wasn't very happy upon seeing it. I was trying to explain to a sweet guy why I was feeling that way and he didn't really get what I meant. Not in a bad way though. I told him to ask his Mom about how eating habits, dressing, body size, looks and etc. have been marketed towards women for decades to see what she'd say. 

Personally if I'm going to go to a Popeye's I'd never not get their chicken.

[theredhead77]

I'd prefer the trend they're referencing be called "snack dinner" or "whatever dinner" but they didn't coin the term. A bunch of female influencers did.

 

https://www.bonappetit.com/story/girl-dinner

[Laura Holt]

It's a silly trend that will probably die off in terms of special restaurant choices pretty soon but I know I'm not the only "girl" who eats differently when I eat alone.  My husband is going camping next week end and I am looking forward to eating what I want, when I want and some of that probably is "girl dinner" but probably not the chicken parm I am ordering from our local restaurant that is soooo soooo good.

[peacheslatour]

44 minutes ago, Laura Holt said:

It's a silly trend that will probably die off in terms of special restaurant choices pretty soon but I know I'm not the only "girl" who eats differently when I eat alone.  My husband is going camping next week end and I am looking forward to eating what I want, when I want and some of that probably is "girl dinner" but probably not the chicken parm I am ordering from our local restaurant that is soooo soooo good.

My husband is going to visit his sister this weekend so he bought me a Marie Callender's key lime pie for company while I watch "my" movies.

[Laura Holt]

1 minute ago, peacheslatour said:

My husband is going to visit his sister this weekend so he bought me a Marie Callender's key lime pie for company while I watch "my" movies.

Oh yes, special treats and full control of the TV.  Enjoy your week-end!!!

[PRgal]

I’m not a fried chicken kind of girl so no Popeye’s for me.  But boy oh boy am I glad I didn’t live in China in the 1930s as the daughter of a concubine.  I always knew that concubines had lower status but I didn’t realize that it was much lower - and likely the reason why my grandmother wasn’t in school long (in addition to war) while her older sister finished high school AND went to university.