Gymnastics

[choclatechip45]

6 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Didn't Nastia stay with her parents? I remember them saying Shawn stayed in the village and Nastia at a hotel.

This article says they were roommates in Beijing https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2018/08/24/nastia-liukin-shawn-johnson/

[Lady Whistleup]

1 minute ago, choclatechip45 said:

This article says they were roommates in Beijing https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2018/08/24/nastia-liukin-shawn-johnson/

Oh guess I remembered wrong. But I do know that the chemistry issues of the 2008 quad were talked about back then. They're friends now but back then it was a lot of bitchiness.

[choclatechip45]

Just now, Lady Whistleup said:

Oh guess I remembered wrong. But I do know that the chemistry issues of the 2008 quad were talked about back then. They're friends now but back then it was a lot of bitchiness.

I remember that too. That team definitely seemed super cliquey. In 2012 they actually seemed to like each other. 

[Lady Whistleup]

4 minutes ago, choclatechip45 said:

I remember that too. That team definitely seemed super cliquey. In 2012 they actually seemed to like each other. 

I think Nastia was a bit of a mean girl and Shawn probably was too. Doesn't mean they're bad people, just that their teenage selves weren't that nice.

[Jeddah]

Oh, sheesh. These are athletes. They don’t have to hug and like each other all the time. Sure, it’s lovely when they do encourage each other. If the genders were reversed I doubt anyone would say the men were cliquish and had lots of bitchiness or call them mean girls just because they had awkward hugs or kept to themselves.

ETA: And this is mostly based on rumors.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Jeddah

[OnePlusOne]

2 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Omg Guan's parents watching her beam. Parents are the same everywhere:

 

Aww, I love this! So much enthusiasm (especially from her dad).

Her family also get bonus points for wearing masks. In most of the US "back home" videos, no one is masked (even when at Universal Studios or in a large group)--it makes me nervous.

[Conotocarious]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

It was all over the webs but Nastia lost to Chellsie in the 2005 worlds by a tiny margin and called Chellsie "fat."

Shawn and Nastia explained their 8 year feud here.

OOOOh, thats’s bitchy as HELL.

[KittenPokerCheater]

Dammit the video is blocked for me!

[JTMacc99]

17 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I doubt anyone would say the men were cliquish and had lots of bitchiness or call them mean girls just because they had awkward hugs or kept to themselves.

They definitely wouldn't use those terms, but there are endless examples of teammates who dislike each other across all sports, and the media always made sure to let us know about it.  Fans love that crap. 

Regardless of the sport, when male athletes don't like each other, it's usually good for ratings, fan interest, and the sport in general.  We celebrate it and call it a rivalry.  

[choclatechip45]

44 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I think Nastia was a bit of a mean girl and Shawn probably was too. Doesn't mean they're bad people, just that their teenage selves weren't that nice.

Well Shawn was definitely the outsider. I remember in one of the profiles before the 2008 Olympics Chow had to send tapes to Martha to get her invited to camps. 

[Lady Whistleup]

There was actually a lot of chatter online about the perceived frostiness between Michael Andrew and the rest of the swim team, especially over the vaccination issue. I think Caeleb Dressel said he was "Team Moderna" in response to Andrew not getting vaxxed.

And in the NBA there's chatter about frosty teammates all the time. Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid, Luka Doncic and Kristap Porzingis, were discussed endlessly this year.

[Minneapple]

31 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

Oh, sheesh. These are athletes. They don’t have to hug and like each other all the time. Sure, it’s lovely when they do encourage each other. If the genders were reversed I doubt anyone would say the men were cliquish and had lots of bitchiness or call them mean girls just because they had awkward hugs or kept to themselves.

Yeah, they're human beings. Nobody gets along with, for example, all of their coworkers. Some people will like each other and some won't. Same thing on TV/movie sets, same deal in sports.

[Jeddah]

7 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

There was actually a lot of chatter online about the perceived frostiness between Michael Andrew and the rest of the swim team, especially over the vaccination issue. I think Caeleb Dressel said he was "Team Moderna" in response to Andrew not getting vaxxed.

And in the NBA there's chatter about frosty teammates all the time. Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid, Luka Doncic and Kristap Porzingis, were discussed endlessly this year.

Then use the term frostiness when you talk about female athletes too. Not bitchiness.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Jeddah

[Lady Whistleup]

If your response to losing the WC's is to call your rival "fat" then I'm sorry, that's bitchiness.

[choclatechip45]

I really loved Suni fangirling Guan Chenchen. Such a nice change from the 2008 American team's relationship with the Chinese team. 

[BrindaWalsh]

Quote

 I remember back in the day Steve Nunno's students were not allowed to mix with Bela Karolyi's gymnasts. It was ridiculous. 

LOL I remember that.  Shannon vs. Kim.  Then there was little Dominique just happily flipping all over the place with a big ass smile on her face.  

I also remember when suddenly everybody had to dress and do their hair like Shannon.  I'm not sure how that happened, because the Karolyis were certainly still on the scene.  It was when Kerri Strugg was coming on up and after Kim had retired, so the time between 92 and 96 I guess?  

I read some click bait article today about some Olympic gold medalist (I think a Russian wrestler?) saying that Simone needed some tough love or some such thing like that and should never have bowed out and the come back in.  Sure, shithead, the girl who was sexually abused for years by the team doctor and went on to win Olympic all around gold, and all other medals over the past several years, needs "tough love."  I hate these people, keep your damn mouths SHUT.  

 

 

[Lady Whistleup]

I think Suni is one of those people where she wanted to win and wanted a medal, but if she didn't, it wouldn't destroy her. Like she just shrugged after a subpar bars routine in the EF. MyKayla I think would have been crushed had she left Tokyo without a medal (and that almost was what happened until Simone got the yips/twisties). I was happy for her sake when she ended up having a strong vault event final.  

[Lady Whistleup]

9 minutes ago, BrindaWalsh said:

LOL I remember that.  Shannon vs. Kim.  Then there was little Dominique just happily flipping all over the place with a big ass smile on her face.  

I also remember when suddenly everybody had to dress and do their hair like Shannon.  I'm not sure how that happened, because the Karolyis were certainly still on the scene.  It was when Kerri Strugg was coming on up and after Kim had retired, so the time between 92 and 96 I guess?  

Ah, the era of the white leos with the white scrunchies and crimped bangs.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Lady Whistleup

[Jeddah]

58 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

If your response to losing the WC's is to call your rival "fat" then I'm sorry, that's bitchiness.

Personally, as an adult I don’t think it’s okay to use words like “bitchiness” to describe a 16 year old. And I don’t believe people would call a 16 year old boy that. That’s just my opinion though! 
 

ETA: This Olympics really has made me think about the way I talk about athletes, and what the expectations I have of them are.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Jeddah

[scarynikki12]

18 minutes ago, BrindaWalsh said:

I also remember when suddenly everybody had to dress and do their hair like Shannon.  I'm not sure how that happened, because the Karolyis were certainly still on the scene.  It was when Kerri Strugg was coming on up and after Kim had retired, so the time between 92 and 96 I guess?  

There was a brief period when they kind of retired between 92 and 96 so that was part of it. The other part was Shannon winning silver in the all-around and 5 medals in 92 quickly followed by back to back all-around golds at Worlds so of course the other coaches tried to get some of that Shannon shine for their gymnasts by going for the same look. It didn't work because a lot of them failed to emulate her precision as well. For Shannon herself I think it was a thing where she had her early success with the scrunchie and kept it as a superstition even though it was a bit too big.

[choclatechip45]

24 minutes ago, BrindaWalsh said:

LOL I remember that.  Shannon vs. Kim.  Then there was little Dominique just happily flipping all over the place with a big ass smile on her face.  

I also remember when suddenly everybody had to dress and do their hair like Shannon.  I'm not sure how that happened, because the Karolyis were certainly still on the scene.  It was when Kerri Strugg was coming on up and after Kim had retired, so the time between 92 and 96 I guess?  

I read some click bait article today about some Olympic gold medalist (I think a Russian wrestler?) saying that Simone needed some tough love or some such thing like that and should never have bowed out and the come back in.  Sure, shithead, the girl who was sexually abused for years by the team doctor and went on to win Olympic all around gold, and all other medals over the past several years, needs "tough love."  I hate these people, keep your damn mouths SHUT.  

 

 

Kerri was coached by Nunno after Barcelona. The Karolyi's retired after Barcelona and Moceanu brought them out of retirement. Funny enough Kerri was coached by Tom Forester and left him when Bela came out of retirement. 

I think the timeline for Kerri was Nuno, Akopian, Forester. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by choclatechip45

[Lady Whistleup]

Here is the beam final.

https://ok.ru/video/2723970025994

[Conotocarious]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/olympics/how-simone-biles-came-back-to-win-the-bronze-of-her-life/ar-AAMTiqA?ocid=winp1taskbar

Really good Simone article with more details about the timeline.

[BlackberryJam]

1 hour ago, Jeddah said:

Then use the term frostiness when you talk about female athletes too. Not bitchiness.

I don't think I've ever used "frosty" to describe male athletes. And there are plenty of athletes who hate each other's guts. The ongoing hate war of Nick Kyrgios and Novak Djokovic amuses me to no end and I hate myself for being #TeamNick in that one. There are NFL players who actually throw punches at each other full Gallagher brother style during games. 

One male athlete calling another "fat" wouldn't have the same sting as when one woman says that to another. It's a different type of insult that certainly doesn't fall under the category of "frosty." I understand not liking the term "bitchy" but there are ways women can insult another than lends itself to a gendered characterization. 

I once fell into the scrunchie/bangs trap. *shudder* All the local gymnastics teams had matching scrunches as part of team uniform. 

There just was a period of time when these athletes were taught to fight each other to win, rather than to support each other so they could all rise. It will take a long time to change that culture, especially considering some of it comes from the parents, but I have hope. 

[AuntieDiane6]

Quote

Personally, I believe it's due to lack of time. College gymnasts usually attend regular K-12 school, so they have time to actually take dance classes as opposed to those who are elite. When you add that to the fact that they aren't allowed to practice more than 20 hours a week in NCAA, it leaves more time for dance.

The choreography is just so AWFUL--techno elevator music, grim determined demeanor and moves that are downright ugly.  

We're not expecting them to do a grand jete, but some of the moves are so ugly they could be easily improved.  You only need to look at figure skating, where a male who skates "like an oak tree with blades" (my favorite skating review quote EVER) improves immediately with choreography from a decent choreographer.  It's ONE event and geez, there are no compulsory routines to take up your time.  

[Conotocarious]

14 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I don't think I've ever used "frosty" to describe male athletes. And there are plenty of athletes who hate each other's guts. The ongoing hate war of Nick Kyrgios and Novak Djokovic amuses me to no end and I hate myself for being #TeamNick in that one. There are NFL players who actually throw punches at each other full Gallagher brother style during games. 

One male athlete calling another "fat" wouldn't have the same sting as when one woman says that to another. It's a different type of insult that certainly doesn't fall under the category of "frosty." I understand not liking the term "bitchy" but there are ways women can insult another than lends itself to a gendered characterization. 

I once fell into the scrunchie/bangs trap. *shudder* All the local gymnastics teams had matching scrunches as part of team uniform. 

There just was a period of time when these athletes were taught to fight each other to win, rather than to support each other so they could all rise. It will take a long time to change that culture, especially considering some of it comes from the parents, but I have hope. 

Am I the only one who also describes male spats as bitchy as well? Because I totally do especially when its a war of words.

[Lady Whistleup]

I also think that unfortunately elite female gymnasts tend to peak at the age when they're most likely to be mean girls. When you're older and more mature you start to realize that not being in the same clique or having the same interests doesn't mean you have to shun someone else. But when you're 15 and 16 and in a stressful competitive environment AND you have Marta Karolyi breathing down your neck? It's a breeding ground for cattiness. 

Also, males absolutely do have that side to them as well. I recently saw an interview with Scottie Pippen and I was shocked at how bitter and catty he sounded. Mean comments flying out of his mouth about so many people. 

[choclatechip45]

11 minutes ago, Conotocarious said:

Am I the only one who also describes male spats as bitchy as well? Because I totally do especially when its a war of words.

I do!

[Steph619]

My favorite part of these Olympics in regards to gymnastics was seeing the gymnasts getting along. They were obviously after the same goal, but they still encouraged each other and seemed to be very friendly. I loved seeing that not just on the US team, but also amongst the different countries.

The 2008 US team definitely had a lot of drama. I loved Shawn Johnson back then and she still remains one of my favorite gymnasts of all time along with Dominique Moceanu. There were a lot of stories about Shawn being treated like an outsider even though they all get along now.

[Lady Whistleup]

It occurs to me that at least on the womens' side the competition has been judged very fairly this Olympics. Very few scores that made me go side-eye. Seems as if everyone was awarded about what they deserved. 

[Chit Chat]

Well, I can sum up my view of the ladies gymnastics in this Olympics as being somewhat lackluster.  Granted, I didn't see every single routine, but aside from the uneven bars, some of the floor exercises were a big yawn for me.  Lots of sloppiness on the vault at times too.  I expected better at this level.  However, there were quite a few really good routines that I did enjoy.  

[selkie]

Unpopular opinion- the overly dramatic shoulders of Vanessa Ferrari were highly annoying during her floor routine. She just kept flinging them everywhere and anywhere in an attempt to show 'artistry'.

[Quilt Fairy]

46 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I also think that unfortunately elite female gymnasts tend to peak at the age when they're most likely to be mean girls.

Is that really true, though?   We've had  - God help us - 40 years of the Karolyi vision of female gymnasts: pre-pubescent girls with no hips or breasts.  But at the time he started, that was the exception, not the rule.  Could we - and I've thought about this a lot - go back to a time when "women's gymnastics" actually meant women in gymnastics?  Could women follow the men's model where they actually go to college and compete in the NCAA before being thrown into the meat grinder? 

[Lady Whistleup]

3 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Is that really true, though?   We've had  - God help us - 40 years of the Karolyi vision of female gymnasts: pre-pubescent girls with no hips or breasts.  But at the time he started, that was the exception, not the rule.  Could we - and I've thought about this a lot - go back to a time when "women's gymnastics" actually meant women in gymnastics?  Could women follow the men's model where they actually go to college and compete in the NCAA before being thrown into the meat grinder? 

Well Father Time is undefeated. Like we saw this year that Simone wasn't quite as strong as she was in 2019. It can be done but it's hard for older women to complete the tumbling. 

It should be noted that by 1972 (which is when the acro skills really started piling up), the top teams' gymnasts were in their teens and 20s.

[Chit Chat]

4 hours ago, Jeddah said:

Oh, sheesh. These are athletes. They don’t have to hug and like each other all the time. Sure, it’s lovely when they do encourage each other.

So true.  Maybe things have changed with the advent of social media, but I don't know if athletes from different countries communicate with each other or not.  It's nice to see good sportsmanship, but I don't need a lot of Kumbaya moments either.  It's a competition!  A look of "bitch, please" every once in awhile can be quite entertaining.   YMMV.

Edited August 3, 2021 by ChitChat

[Frisky Wig]

1 minute ago, ChitChat said:

So true.  Maybe things have changed with the advent of social media, but I don't know if athletes from different countries communicate with each other or not.  It's nice to see good sportsmanship, but I don't need a lot of Kumbaya moments either.  It's a competition!  A look of "bitch, please" every once in awhile can be quite entertaining.   YMMV.

Imagine what the media (and SM trolls) would do to a gymnast if everyone else was Kumbaya-ing and hugging each other, and she was sitting in her warm-ups with a Khorkina-worthy glare on her face!

[choclatechip45]

11 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Is that really true, though?   We've had  - God help us - 40 years of the Karolyi vision of female gymnasts: pre-pubescent girls with no hips or breasts.  But at the time he started, that was the exception, not the rule.  Could we - and I've thought about this a lot - go back to a time when "women's gymnastics" actually meant women in gymnastics?  Could women follow the men's model where they actually go to college and compete in the NCAA before being thrown into the meat grinder? 

I think it's hard in the US for a few reasons 1) right now we have so much depth 2) competing NCAA & elite is hard schedule wise Trinity Thomas did it as well as anyone and couldn't attend a World Selection Camp because of commitments at UF. 3) Funding unless you come from a rich family or have a ton of sponsors like Gabby did it is hard to pay for training. 

I think going forward reason #3 is what will stop people. Also the Men's model is pretty terrible most of the athletes in the US system can barley pay the bills and it is the biggest reason why we have no depth on the men's side. 

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, AuntieDiane6 said:

 You only need to look at figure skating, where a male who skates "like an oak tree with blades" (my favorite skating review quote EVER) improves immediately with choreography from a decent choreographer.

Now I want the background on that! If I had a guess it would be Johnny saying it about Jin Boyang. Am I close? I always think of his Spider-Man routine when I hear Jordan’s floor music.

Jade’s floor routine was choreographed by Betty Okino, so it’s not like it was a random person with no understanding of artistry. Betty was the best turner in her day, so I love that she didn’t put a wolf turn in Jade’s floor routine.

 

[scarynikki12]

Brody’s high bar routine is a great example of why NBC’s red, yellow, green thing doesn’t work. He made some big mistakes and it cost him a chance to medal yet they have it marked green which implies it’s good.

[BlackberryJam]

4 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Brody’s high bar routine is a great example of why NBC’s red, yellow, green thing doesn’t work. He made some big mistakes and it cost him a chance to medal yet they have it marked green which implies it’s good.

Oh I'm thrilled that nifkin won't medal. 

[scarynikki12]

Yay Croatia!! 

[Lady Whistleup]

Love how Kitazano smiled throughout the trainwreck routine.

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Is that really true, though?   We've had  - God help us - 40 years of the Karolyi vision of female gymnasts: pre-pubescent girls with no hips or breasts.  But at the time he started, that was the exception, not the rule.  Could we - and I've thought about this a lot - go back to a time when "women's gymnastics" actually meant women in gymnastics?  Could women follow the men's model where they actually go to college and compete in the NCAA before being thrown into the meat grinder? 

The last 15 years or so, the ladies haven't really looked prepubescent. They have powerful arms and thighs from all the tumbling. They're small, but they have muscles. They don't really develop hips or breasts, but that's a natural byproduct of working out for several hours a day, every day. You see that in other sports too. And, the average age of the women's gymnasts in these international competitions is going up, which is a good thing. It's super awful to throw young children into these competitions, particularly when they can get hurt at a very young age.

McKayla Skinner just competed in NCAAs and then in the Olympics. So it's possible. Suni is only 18 and she's about to go to Auburn; hopefully we'll see her in three years in Paris. And Jade is going to Oregon State. Well. For now, anyway.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Minneapple

[choclatechip45]

4 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

The last 15 years or so, the ladies haven't really looked prepubescent. They have powerful arms and thighs from all the tumbling. They're small, but they have muscles. They don't really develop hips or breasts, but that's a natural byproduct of working out for several hours a day, every day. You see that in other sports too. And, the average age of the women's gymnasts in these international competitions is going up, which is a good thing. It's super awful to throw young children into these competitions, particularly when they can get hurt at a very young age.

McKayla Skinner just competed in NCAAs and then in the Olympics. So it's possible. Suni is only 18 and she's about to go to Auburn; hopefully we'll see her in three years in Paris. And Jade is going to Oregon State. Well. For now, anyway.

Skinner didn't do it simultaneously. She went to Utah for two years and was on leave to compete elite. Alicia Sacramone did both for like two years when she competed at Brown and Trinity Thomas did it this past quad, but unfortunately got injured during the NCAA season which is why she wasn't a factor for the Olympic team. 

Other countries governments fund elite athletes we don't do that in the USA. 

[scarynikki12]

How is she so cute?

 

[AuntieDiane6]

1 hour ago, Jeddah said:

Jade’s floor routine was choreographed by Betty Okino, so it’s not like it was a random person with no understanding of artistry. Betty was the best turner in her day, so I love that she didn’t put a wolf turn in Jade’s floor routine.

Well, Betty was a Karolyi girl so I guess that's why it seemed like Bela stomping around.  And what was that awful music?  If skaters can use better music (in terms of Olympic rights), so can gymnasts.  I hate to think who she used before Betty!  Boy, I remember the days of the great Russian choreography. 

[Mellowyellow]

3 hours ago, Conotocarious said:

Am I the only one who also describes male spats as bitchy as well? Because I totally do especially when its a war of words.

I do too!!!

I also say "Zzz is a bitch" even if it's a man. To me the word means a certain kind of mean spirited, pettiness so I use it for both genders.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Mellowyellow

[Jeddah]

10 minutes ago, AuntieDiane6 said:

And what was that awful music?  If skaters can use better music (in terms of Olympic rights), so can gymnasts.

I know we all complain about the war horse music choices in figure skating, but a part of me would really love a floor routine to Carmen.

[Minneapple]

22 minutes ago, choclatechip45 said:

Skinner didn't do it simultaneously. She went to Utah for two years and was on leave to compete elite. Alicia Sacramone did both for like two years when she competed at Brown and Trinity Thomas did it this past quad, but unfortunately got injured during the NCAA season which is why she wasn't a factor for the Olympic team.

Right, I just meant that Skinner did NCAAs and then elite.

[Blue hues]

5 hours ago, Conotocarious said:

OOOOh, thats’s bitchy as HELL.

I don’t see anything “bitchy” in their interactions.  What am I missing?  How do we know Nastia called Memel fat?  When and where did that happen, or is it just lore?