The Winchesters Anticipation

[tessathereaper]

43 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

He was? I thought Azazel was a human turned demon in SPN lore? I didn't think there were any angels in hell as demons.

I thought he was a Prince of Hell?

I'm pretty sure Azazel was one one of the angels that fell.  That's why he had yellow eyes.  But now I can't remember if that was canon or if it was just how fandom explained why he had yellow eyes?

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

I think that was writers stupidity.  After all Jimmy didn't need to drink demon blood to NOT explode. LOL   Maybe they'd all been led to believe it was different with Lucifer because he was "evil"?

I know they kept saying that they needed particular vessels who were strong enough to hold archangels, so Jimmy, housing just a "minor" angel, didn't need anything to keep from exploding.  They never did explain why Dean didn't need any help to hold Michael, so IA with you and  @MAK that maybe the writers wanted to show the difference between the "evil" archangel and the good one, even if that doesn't make any sense.  (Maybe Lucifer's grace was tainted?)  Sheesh. 

[PAForrest]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

I think they just wanted to retcon the demon blood drinking from something that was just disgusting to something that was more necessary and then they decided to switch back again when they had Ruby tell him that he never needed it.

S5 was a mess after The End what with all the OTT writing desperation to turn Sam into the sole savior of the world and turn all of his previous mistakes and character faults and flaws into somehow being Dean's fault as much as they were Sam's(God, I just realized how apropos that sounds to recent RL events, too).

Anyway, I have to agree with whoever said that if canon was being retconned away as early as this, there's nothing that could make it any worse than what Dabb did in the last seasons. 

And at least we know that Robbie Thomoson watched the entire series, unlike some of the writers that have been associated with this show, again, especially as it was winding down.

The blood drinking made Sam look bad - it was essentially an alcoholic/drug addict storyline. Why Kripke and the writers thought it would ever make him look good is a little disturbing. So yeah, at the 11th hour suddenly it was all super-duper for the alcoholic to binge or the addict to shoot up. Nothing bad to see here, kiddies. Quite the message they were sending there.

I too agree that if you watched this show at all, like ever, but especially from season five on - and good god, kept at it through the Dabb years - canon is not a complaint you can pull out of your pocket to level at The Winchesters. By the end of the show there was no canon. In the Dabb years anything remotely resembling canon was busted on a weekly basis. So anything Jensen or anyone else wants to do with this show isn't going to step on canon because there's nothing to step on. The canon ship sailed and sank a long time ago.

[Casseiopeia]

1 minute ago, PAForrest said:

Why Kripke and the writers thought it would ever make him look good is a little disturbing

Really? I never saw that Sam was written as the good guy in S4. Like Ruby said she just kept giving him the choices and he went down the wrong road every single time.  I remember watching back then thinking (or screaming) What The Hell Sam! Even God didn't want you doing this. Dean was led astray as well but not nearly down the road Sam went down.

The addiction to DB I always thought was the way to weaken Sam to the point he would do anything for the power...even say yes to Lucifer. At least up until Sam had to drink the blood to contain Lucifer. It would have made more sense if Castiel had said Sam would need to drink gallons of DB in order to take control.

[tessathereaper]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

Really? I never saw that Sam was written as the good guy in S4. Like Ruby said she just kept giving him the choices and he went down the wrong road every single time.  I remember watching back then thinking (or screaming) What The Hell Sam! Even God didn't want you doing this. Dean was led astray as well but not nearly down the road Sam went down.

The addiction to DB I always thought was the way to weaken Sam to the point he would do anything for the power...even say yes to Lucifer. At least up until Sam had to drink the blood to contain Lucifer. It would have made more sense if Castiel had said Sam would need to drink gallons of DB in order to take control.

He was imo because they kept trying to make Dean look worse or blaming what he did on Dean.  It's not about the actions themselves but how they were framed within the narrative.  The DB was a way for Ruby to control him but he HAD to do it. So it was a necessary addiction.  They also framed Dean as wrong somehow for trying to detox him and Dean as wrong for daring to wonder if there was anything to left to save after Sam choked him almost to death and chose Ruby, he got the "boohoo Princess" speech from Bobby. And then the next season Sam blamed him for making him go with Ruby by being "bossy", even though Dean not only was willing to accept Ruby for Sam's sake and later went to the point of saying do whatever you want just don't lie to me, and DEAN is the one who had to apologize.  And all during Season 4 when Sam was calling Dean weaker after hell, etc, etc the show never actually refuted what he was saying.

[Morrigan2575]

37 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I'm pretty sure Azazel was one one of the angels that fell.  That's why he had yellow eyes.  But now I can't remember if that was canon or if it was just how fandom explained why he had yellow eyes?

All of the Princes of Hell had Yellow Eyes. Just like Cross Roads Demons had Red Eyes. Lilith was the first demon and she had White Eyes. 

I really don't think there were any angels in hell, only Lucifer.

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

He was imo because they kept trying to make Dean look worse or blaming what he did on Dean.  It's not about the actions themselves but how they were framed within the narrative.  The DB was a way for Ruby to control him but he HAD to do it. So it was a necessary addiction.  They also framed Dean as wrong somehow for trying to detox him and Dean as wrong for daring to wonder if there was anything to left to save after Sam choked him almost to death and chose Ruby, he got the "boohoo Princess" speech from Bobby. And then the next season Sam blamed him for making him go with Ruby by being "bossy", even though Dean not only was willing to accept Ruby for Sam's sake and later went to the point of saying do whatever you want just don't lie to me, and DEAN is the one who had to apologize.  And all during Season 4 when Sam was calling Dean weaker after hell, etc, etc the show never actually refuted what he was saying.

I guess I never saw it that way. Everything that Sam said to Dean I think was supposed to show how off the rails he had become. In the end Dean was right and Sam was wrong.

For the record S4 was my least favorite of the series up until Dabb's tenure. I hated how Sam was characterized. It really destroyed the brother dynamic at least for me in a way that was never really repaired for the rest of the series.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Casseiopeia

[Airmid]

On 7/1/2021 at 7:18 AM, Morrigan2575 said:

He was? I thought Azazel was a human turned demon in SPN lore? I didn't think there were any angels in hell as demons.

I thought he was a Prince of Hell?

In actual real world texts, he was originally associated with a scapegoat ritual and latter on as a fallen angel that taught humans forbidden knowledge. His punishment for the latter, being bound in a desert while unable to see, is actually referenced when he is first shown in the series through a throwaway line.

In the series, they are just some of the first that Lucifer turned and were given some of Lucifer's power so that they would be able to do what they needed to do. It's why they were much more powerful (the first of something in this series tends to be the biggest and then it depletes as it goes) and why their eye color was different, along with their skills at times being more removed from other demons. Why the show didn't just go with Lucifer using fallen angels to rule hell in his steed, no idea, as that would make more sense, especially given that all angels are assholes on this show and aren't that much different than demons in the grand scheme of things.

For the new series - I just can't. Somehow, one of the worst moments of the Dabb era for me was the whole John and Mary sharing a heaven and how complete they were together. For starters, all this woman did was lie to John about who she was, who her family was, her entire background, just everything. I don't actually fault her for her deal, anyone in that situation would have extreme difficulty not trading something that seemed maybe harmless far in the future to get at least one of her loved ones back that had been slaughtered in front of her. And I don't necessarily have an issue with her trying to protect John from it. I do, however, have an issue with the rest, along with the fact that the past 15 years have never shown her to have prepared to deal with this - she's just a massive ball of denial which continued after she came back. Add that in with the rest and she's just one character I have no desire to see be made into a saint. Given what was done with her, I just don't care, there's nothing that's going to make up for the last fifteen years worth of stuff she did.

John - I have immense sympathy for John pre-fire. Here's a man who thought his own father ran out on him at a very young age, not knowing the truth and having a huge resource taken away from him. We don't know what happened with his mother but given his views on both Henry and some of his choices including shipping off to war at what would have been a very young age to jive with what we know about him, I can't say it would have been good. Then he meets a woman who interests him, get's manipulated to continue a bloodline, and ends up living in a nightmare because all she did was lie to him. Regardless of his choices after Mary's death, I don't have a desire to see John being set up to suffer. He did seem to truly be a good man before his life was shattered, and knowing what happened after, well, don't want to watch that either. 

I just don't see this show as necessary or in any way redeeming either of these two people. They spent years making John into a monster and making Mary completely unlikeable that to me, it's just disappointing that something like this would even be happening. Even more disappointing is that JA is backing this. 

[companionenvy]

Eh. I just don't see how this is going to work.

I'm generally suspicious of prequels, because I do think that part of the enjoyment of a show is watching to see how everything turns out in the end. When you don't have that, it robs us of something significant. Sure, the journey is more important than the destination, and it can be interesting to see how everything came to be--but at the end of the day, knowing the fates of John and Mary cheapens the experience of watching them headline what I assume is intended as a multi-season serialized drama. 

And for John and Mary, show canon has also precluded what would seem to be the natural progression of a show with this kind of central premise. If it weren't a prequel, a show in which two teens fall in love, one of them hiding her continued entanglement with the supernatural world she's trying to escape, would naturally be leading up to a reveal, and the two of them hunting together. SPN may have been loose with canon, but there's a difference between technical retcons that can still be finessed into what we know, surprising additions that change our sense of the characters without violating canon, and a premise-changing move that simply can't be reconciled with what came before.

John's father being a MOL when he had called himself a "mechanic from a family of mechanics" and reference to an apparently living father had been made is in the first category. It wasn't a central part of the episode in which it was introduced, and it can be made consistent with what we later learn by assuming he had a stepfather from a relatively young age. He certainly didn't know about Henry and his legacy status, so it isn't a big leap; John thought he was from a thoroughly ordinary family. 

Mary hunting after marriage is in the second category. I know a lot of people hated that decision, but it isn't actually precluded by canon, and, IMO, isn't even that inconsistent with it. We know she wanted to leave hunting at age 18, but people are complicated, and there are any number of ways she might have been drawn back in for reasons of both obligation and desire. There's room for her to have been mostly a stay-at-home-mom who occasionally hunted when she caught wind of a case. 

What there's not room for is for John to have been in the know. John having been a Muggle who  becomes initiated into the supernatural world after Mary dies is a central part of the show's premise. When the boys visit in 1979, he certainly doesn't know anything about it, and then has his memory wiped at the end of that episode. Once Mary returns and we learn more about her past as a hunter, there's never an indication that John knew anything, and a number of indications that she was keeping it from him.

So, right off the bat, you not only know how these people's stories end, you've taken away what should logically be the key direction in their shared narrative. It just isn't that satisfying to have endless seasons of Mary getting drawn back in to hunting, John being in the dark, and them fighting about her absences and his...whatever he was doing. 

That leaves us with ""John knew, but then his memory got wiped," which is a narrative tactic I've always hated, unless it is used in a relatively limited way and/or with a minor character. 

[MAK]

5 hours ago, Airmid said:

On 7/1/2021 at 7:48 PM, Morrigan2575 said:

He was? I thought Azazel was a human turned demon in SPN lore? I didn't think there were any angels in hell as demons.

I thought he was a Prince of Hell?

In actual real world texts, he was originally associated with a scapegoat ritual and latter on as a fallen angel that taught humans forbidden knowledge. His punishment for the latter, being bound in a desert while unable to see, is actually referenced when he is first shown in the series through a throwaway line

Sorry, my bad....got real lore and SPN lore mixed up.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

When the boys visit in 1979, he certainly doesn't know anything about it, and then has his memory wiped at the end of that episode.

Given that we know they were manipulated by Cupid (on orders from above and/or below) and that they were mind-wiped at least once. Who's to say how many times the angels had to interfere to keep them together? I just keep circling around to the fact that Jensen & Co have invested a lot of time and energy into this idea (he said in that zoom con panel it was pretty much all he'd been doing) and they wouldn't have landed on it if they didn't know how to make it work. He also took the time to read and retweet that one article, emphasizing that making it work within canon was the fun part. I'm truly intrigued to see how they do it.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Given that we know they were manipulated by Cupid (on orders from above and/or below) and that they were mind-wiped at least once. Who's to say how many times the angels had to interfere to keep them together? I just keep circling around to the fact that Jensen & Co have invested a lot of time and energy into this idea (he said in that zoom con panel it was pretty much all he'd been doing) and they wouldn't have landed on it if they didn't know how to make it work. He also took the time to read and retweet that one article, emphasizing that making it work within canon was the fun part. I'm truly intrigued to see how they do it.

I agree. It's interesting how most of the dissenting opinions are about supposed canon when they've been mangling it even before the Dabb years. It's also interesting ( or expected ) that fans that preferred one brother over the other ( guess who ) are the most pessimistic so far. 

[companionenvy]

Sigh. I left these boards years ago over bitch/jerk, and I can't even get through a single post that has nothing at all to do with Sam or Dean without accusations of bias resurfacing. 

I don't care if Shakespeare were writing, producing, and starring in the series. It is a prequel about characters whose fates are known, as is the broad outline of their story. That makes me not super excited for it right off the bat. 

I guess it is possible that the show could work well if the showrunners simply ignore things in canon that they don't like, and tell the story of John finding out the truth from Mary and fighting supernatural baddies together. It would be a total cheat that cheapens parts of SPN canon, but the show could probably work on those terms. I don't think they're going to do it, though, as the comments about finding ways to work with canon suggest.

As I acknowledged, they could also find an in-text workaround, most obviously a memory wipe. But, as I also said, I detest memory wipes of that kind. Watching an entire series that one or both of the main characters are just going to forget isn't my cup of tea. 

Still think Wayward Daughters was a better idea for a spinoff. It could more easily have carved out its own little corner of the SPN-verse without either interfering substantially with the mythology or being overly burdened by it.

[Casseiopeia]

29 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

, they could also find an in-text workaround, most obviously a memory wipe. But, as I also said, I detest memory wipes of that kind. Watching an entire series that one or both of the main characters are just going to forget isn't my cup of tea. 

I agree. I hope this isn't the path Robbie is choosing.  I've read another theory about a Lost or This Is Us type story telling jumping around in timelines but since we already know the story of the beginning of John and Mary's relationship to the end all we should see is Mary trying to conceal her escapades while John works at the garage.

Robbie is a very inventive writer who loves Supernatural and it's fans. I have great confidence he will come up with an angle no one expects....I hope.

[Lastcall]

46 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I agree. I hope this isn't the path Robbie is choosing.  I've read another theory about a Lost or This Is Us type story telling jumping around in timelines but since we already know the story of the beginning of John and Mary's relationship to the end all we should see is Mary trying to conceal her escapades while John works at the garage.

Robbie is a very inventive writer who loves Supernatural and it's fans. I have great confidence he will come up with an angle no one expects....I hope.

Yeah this is a huge minefield Chaos Machine chose to walk through. Choosing two of the most hated characters of modern fandom is a weird choice but it does show that they want to tell a story first and not just cater to a small group of fans. I really hope they don't pull the mind wipe card that's a hard sell not just for fans but casual viewers. You don't start a show with no one will remember this. I have a few worries about Robbie Thompsons involvement. On the plus side he actually watched the show and he did write a couple of my favorite episodes (Baby and First Born). On the downside, he is patient zero for Mary Sue/Self-insert/Writer's Pet characters. He set the precedent for Kaia, Jack, Mary and Nick. However, since he is starting this from episode one that shouldn't be a problem. He can tell the story he wants to tell from the beginning. 

 

[Casseiopeia]

51 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

He set the precedent for Kaia, Jack, Mary and Nick.

 I do think the reason Jensen wanted Robbie for his showrunner was because of Baby and First Born  (he was also a huge fan of Charlie).  I can't blame Robbie for Jack and Nick though.  He knew enough to make sure that the story of Supernatural focused on the brothers even in the Charlie episodes.

Mary was established as an accomplished hunter in S4 and Sera made Samuel Campbell the most knowledgeable hunter as far as lore . I imagine they are going to double down that she was the best hunter that ever hunted.  I just can't see how John fits in unless John did know and hunted with Mary before his mind was wiped by Azazel. Maybe Mary's deal to sell out Sam also included making John forget about all their adventures hunting.  We didn't know that much about John from In The Beginning (btw I didn't realize that Jeremy Carver wrote that ep, I always thought it was Ben Edlund) other than Dean steered him to the Impala, John dated Mary and that Mary wanted John to take her away from the hunting life. She never did say that John didn't know anything about hunting. Maybe that was a secret she kept from both her parents since Samuel had a low opinion of other hunters. And Michael mind wiped John later in 1978 so further mind wiping shouldn't be necessary.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Casseiopeia

[Pondlass1]

I have great faith in Jensen.  He knows how to tell a story.  Maybe they won’t stick exactly to the Supernatural lore, many viewers might not have watched the series anyway.  Fingers crossed he gets the right actors… especially for the Mary character 

[Lastcall]

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

 I do think the reason Jensen wanted Robbie for his showrunner was because of Baby and First Born  (he was also a huge fan of Charlie).  I can't blame Robbie for Jack and Nick though.  He knew enough to make sure that the story of Supernatural focused on the brothers even in the Charlie episodes.

Mary was established as an accomplished hunter in S4 and Sera made Samuel Campbell the most knowledgeable hunter as far as lore . I imagine they are going to double down that she was the best hunter that ever hunted.  I just can't see how John fits in unless John did know and hunted with Mary before his mind was wiped by Azazel. Maybe Mary's deal to sell out Sam also included making John forget about all their adventures hunting.  We didn't know that much about John from In The Beginning (btw I didn't realize that Jeremy Carver wrote that ep, I always thought it was Ben Edlund) other than Dean steered him to the Impala, John dated Mary and that Mary wanted John to take her away from the hunting life. She never did say that John didn't know anything about hunting. Maybe that was a secret she kept from both her parents since Samuel had a low opinion of other hunters. And Michael mind wiped John later in 1978 so further mind wiping shouldn't be necessary.

If Robbie gives the love to John and Mary that he gave to Charlie then the show is going to be just fine. I just don't like it when he goes overboard. I've always loved John even though that is unpopular now days. I loved Mary too, right up until the Dabb years, he ruined her. As for going overboard, filling up three episodes on her death, funeral and second funeral was a bit much. I hope they balance things between the two of them so they can both be the action heroes Sam and Dean are.

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

I have great faith in Jensen.  He knows how to tell a story.  Maybe they won’t stick exactly to the Supernatural lore, many viewers might not have watched the series anyway.  Fingers crossed he gets the right actors… especially for the Mary character 

I would love it if Jensen and Robbie retcon all the stupid retcons of the later years but it probably won't happen. However, I never expected things would go this quickly or Jensen would actually exec produce a Supernatural series so anything can happen. Yeah it's petty but the possibility of Jensen and Robbie undoing Dabb's retcons makes me happy. 

[MAK]

I have no idea how ownership of original TV characters works. Who gets credit only? Money only? Credit and money? Who has to give permission? Does the writer (of an episode) own the character he/she creates for that episode? Or is everything anyone writes owned by the production company? Or is it a kind of "joint" ownership between the company, showrunner, and writer?

Maybe JA is doing a prequel so that he only has to deal with WB and Kripke. If he starts going after Wayward Sisters or characters after S5,  like a lot of fans want, he may be required to work with Dabb/Carver/Gamble, which he might not want to do.

I just hope it is dark and mature like when Kim Manners was directing, and not a Hallmark movie with monsters thrown in.

[companionenvy]

Here's a thought: could the "frame narrative" of the show be set in Heaven? That would be consistent with narration from Dean, and it might be a way to make a memory-wipe scenario palatable. Have a first scene with Dean, John and Mary (the JDM/SS versions) in heaven, where maybe J&M have gotten or are getting some of their memories back. Or, at least, it becomes clear there are some discrepancies in memories, and Dean investigates.

Still not great, necessarily, but at least then there's not the same sense of total waste and frustration, as some version of these characters do get their memories back, eventually. 

[Aeryn13]

4 hours ago, MAK said:

I have no idea how ownership of original TV characters works. Who gets credit only? Money only? Credit and money? Who has to give permission? Does the writer (of an episode) own the character he/she creates for that episode? Or is everything anyone writes owned by the production company? Or is it a kind of "joint" ownership between the company, showrunner, and writer?

Maybe JA is doing a prequel so that he only has to deal with WB and Kripke. If he starts going after Wayward Sisters or characters after S5,  like a lot of fans want, he may be required to work with Dabb/Carver/Gamble, which he might not want to do.

I just hope it is dark and mature like when Kim Manners was directing, and not a Hallmark movie with monsters thrown in.

Since the network already once passed on Wayward Sisters/Daughters, that would be a no-deal anyway. I think the lead actress was moving on before it got even announced that it wouldn't go through. I thought the premise was pretty awful anyway.

And hells to the no for more Jackie Stu or something like that.

Creating a spin-off for SPN is gonna be hard either way. I can see why they went the prequel route. Maybe an anthology-like series of first Season John/Mary, second Season young Bobby/young Rufus etc could be a way to go if that is in the cards.

[Casseiopeia]

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

second Season young Bobby/young Rufus etc could be a way to go if that is in the cards.

That would have a much better starting point for the spinoff since we know they started out hunting together but none of the details. They could have made up endless stories for those two.

[Myrelle]

23 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Since the network already once passed on Wayward Sisters/Daughters, that would be a no-deal anyway. I think the lead actress was moving on before it got even announced that it wouldn't go through. I thought the premise was pretty awful anyway.

And hells to the no for more Jackie Stu or something like that.

Creating a spin-off for SPN is gonna be hard either way. I can see why they went the prequel route. Maybe an anthology-like series of first Season John/Mary, second Season young Bobby/young Rufus etc could be a way to go if that is in the cards.

I bet this is the plan.

And possibilities are there for work for many SPN alums in all of this, which I also bet was a part of the plan.

I don't like the Mary/Marty stu style of writing that RT uses sometimes either, but as someone else said, since it's a new project maybe it won't be as blatant or maybe he's even learned to tone it down a bit, even when he likes a character.

I'd give it a shot because it's a Jensen Ackles production and we know the guy is a good storyteller. 

[Lastcall]

6 hours ago, MAK said:

I have no idea how ownership of original TV characters works. Who gets credit only? Money only? Credit and money? Who has to give permission? Does the writer (of an episode) own the character he/she creates for that episode? Or is everything anyone writes owned by the production company? Or is it a kind of "joint" ownership between the company, showrunner, and writer?

Maybe JA is doing a prequel so that he only has to deal with WB and Kripke. If he starts going after Wayward Sisters or characters after S5,  like a lot of fans want, he may be required to work with Dabb/Carver/Gamble, which he might not want to do.

I just hope it is dark and mature like when Kim Manners was directing, and not a Hallmark movie with monsters thrown in.

I don't think Kripke really factors into this anymore. He has pretty much moved on. Sure he will make money off of it but he seems to have told his story and isn't concerned with the stories after. Dabb's meeting with him about the Finale and Jensen's and Robbie's meeting about the new series seems more like a courtesy than an approval. Going by the tweets, he didn't even know Jared wasn't involved and deleted them because either he didn't want to be involved with the controversy or someone involved in all of this asked him to remove it. 

This all could be further along then we think. Wayward Sisters wasn't picked up because the CW had to choose between that and Legacies. They had a good relationship with Plec and wanted to work with her again so they went with it. The CW also has a very good relationship with Jensen and he said he doesn't like to announce things until they are baked. I think that announcement was the launch for the prequel and Jensen has a good feeling that he will at least make it to pilot. We should know more shortly, Jensen has a panel at the virtual comic con so I'm sure he will be asked about it. Then there is creation in August which will be extremely interesting if J2 are physically on stage and it's not all on video. 

[MAK]

Seems like a lot of people want a Bobby/Rufus show. I like both of them,  but what would a show with them as leads look like? Would it be a more procedural MotW like S1 of SPN where more attention was paid to the victims' and/or monsters' story? Or a Dukes of Hazzard where they have a horror/action adventure every week?

Because S1 had really interesting non-Winchester stories. I still want to know what happened to Andrea and Lucas, Lori from Hookman, Haley from Wendigo, Layla and Roy, Matt from Bugs, Emily in the Scarecow. The stories of the monsters in Bloody Mary, Skin, Asylum, Scarecrow, etc. were really interesting too. They spent time developing the one-time characters, with Sam and Dean in the background.

And yes, I waited for the "bro moments" in and around the Impala, but would we be so invested in any type of Bobby/Rufus personal interaction? Any type of overarching mythology involving them would be really contrived.

That's probably why they're going with John and Mary. They are involved in a really long range plan. Maybe the angels and demons had to be more involved because John and Mary kept going off script?

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, MAK said:

Seems like a lot of people want a Bobby/Rufus show. I like both of them,  but what would a show with them as leads look like?

It would look like the episode Robbie wrote for S11...Safe House.  My favorite moment was when Dean  and Bobby saw each other in different timelines.  The first time Dean had seen Bobby since they burned the flask.

Bobby and Rufus were great together in that episode.

 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, MAK said:

Seems like a lot of people want a Bobby/Rufus show. I like both of them,  but what would a show with them as leads look like?

I don't. The episodes with them were entertaining but I don't want an entire series of them. Although I would like to know what happened in Omaha that was so unforgivable for Rufus.

I am interested in John and Mary because before Dabb and after JDM's exit is when I feel that Mary and John took the biggest hit in regards to their characters. John was kind of a grey character ( to me anyway ) during season 1 and we found out after his death the things that he did that made his sons resent him ( and Dean finally admit to it ) and that his marriage wasn't all that great. With Mary she was up on a pedestal until she was brought back which makes me wonder how she went from the hunter's daughter that was determined to have a different life for her kids to the hunter that put hunting before them. Overall I'm looking forward to the prequel and I'm going to stay optimistic until I see the finished product.

Edited July 5, 2021 by DeeDee79

[Bergamot]

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Maybe an anthology-like series of first Season John/Mary, second Season young Bobby/young Rufus etc could be a way to go if that is in the cards.

So then if they did a story of the earlier adventures of Bobby and Rufus, that would mean re-casting the roles with younger actors. The idea of seeing those two characters played by someone else doesn't interest me very much. Unlike say, the roles of John and Mary, which have already been played by different actors, my enjoyment of the characters of Bobby and Rufus was tied to seeing them played by Jim Beaver and Steven Williams. Not just because of the fact that they are both very good actors, but because of the way they played off each other and the on-screen chemistry they had.

To be honest, the idea of seeing more of the adventures of Bobby Singer by itself doesn't thrill me. In earlier seasons, I enjoyed seeing Bobby appear in episodes, but they kind of ran the character into the ground for me. Nothing against Jim Beaver, but by the end of the show I was just really tired of Bobby. Unfortunately the show reduced him to a caricature; the originality and "realness" which the character had in his first appearances got lost along the way.

Maybe that's one reason why I can't picture Bobby being played by another younger actor. I mean, what would they do, stick a dirty cap on the young guy's head and have him repeatedly growl "Balls" and constantly call people "Idjits" so that we would know it was Bobby? The thought makes me kind of cringe. It would almost be like they would be doing a parody of Bobby.

I actually would watch a series with just Steven Williams as Rufus, though, just because I love the actor so much. He was so awesome as Rufus! And he managed to maintain the integrity of his character right up to the end, in a way I don't think the show did for Bobby. Rufus never lost that realness for me, and he helped make the character of Bobby more authentic and interesting as well when they were together, in a way that Bobby no longer was for me in his relationships with other characters.

And Rufus was always entertaining to watch. Like in "Weekend at Bobby's", with his banging on the door: "Oh good, you're home!..You gotta help me bury a body." Or in "And Then There Were None", when he learns that the man Dean wants to kill is his grandfather: "Ow! Somebody needs a hug!" ( It makes me laugh every time, the way he says that!)

Or his wonderful introduction in "Time Is on My Side", where he and Dean drink a bottle of scotch together, and he tells Dean, "Folks like us...there ain't no happy ending. We all got it coming." What a great scene that was!

5 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

The episodes with them were entertaining but I don't want an entire series of them. Although I would like to know what happened in Omaha that was so unforgivable for Rufus.

I would like to know too! I guess that I wouldn't have minded seeing more episodes with the two of them, so long as they were played by the original actors. But an entire series? I don't know about that.  Anyway I don't think that not getting a series about them means that any other idea for a new series connected to Supernatural must be rejected as wrong and a mistake.

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by Bergamot

[DeeDee79]

44 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

So then if they did a story of the earlier adventures of Bobby and Rufus, that would mean re-casting the roles with younger actors. The idea of seeing those two characters played by someone else doesn't interest me very much. Unlike say, the roles of John and Mary, which have already been played by different actors, my enjoyment of the characters of Bobby and Rufus was tied to seeing them played by Jim Beaver and Steven Williams. Not just because of the fact that they are both very good actors, but because of the way they played off each other and the on-screen chemistry they had.

To be honest, the idea of seeing more of the adventures of Bobby Singer by itself doesn't thrill me. In earlier seasons, I enjoyed seeing Bobby appear in episodes, but they kind of ran the character into the ground for me. Nothing against Jim Beaver, but by the end of the show I was just really tired of Bobby. Unfortunately the show reduced him to a caricature; the originality and "realness" which the character had in his first appearances got lost along the way.

Maybe that's one reason why I can't picture Bobby being played by another younger actor. I mean, what would they do, stick a dirty cap on the young guy's head and have him repeatedly growl "Balls" and constantly call people "Idjits" so that we would know it was Bobby? The thought makes me kind of cringe. It would almost be like they would be doing a parody of Bobby.

I actually would watch a series with just Steven Williams as Rufus, though, just because I love the actor so much. He was so awesome as Rufus! And he managed to maintain the integrity of his character right up to the end, in a way I don't think the show did for Bobby. Rufus never lost that realness for me, and he helped make the character of Bobby more authentic and interesting as well when they were together, in a way that Bobby no longer was for me in his relationships with other characters.

And Rufus was always entertaining to watch. Like in "Weekend at Bobby's", with his banging on the door: "Oh good, you're home!..You gotta help me bury a body." Or in "And Then There Were None", when he learns that the man Dean wants to kill is his grandfather: "Ow! Somebody needs a hug!" ( It makes me laugh every time, the way he says that!)

Or his wonderful introduction in "Time Is on My Side", where he and Dean drink a bottle of scotch together, and he tells Dean, "Folks like us...there ain't no happy ending. We all got it coming." What a great scene that was!

I would like to know too! I guess that I wouldn't have minded seeing more episodes with the two of them, so long as they were played by the original actors. But an entire series? I don't know about that.  Anyway I don't think that not getting a series about them means that any other idea for a new series connected to Supernatural must be rejected as wrong and a mistake.

 

These are great points and I love the fact that you pointed out that a Bobby/Rufus prequel would have to be recast with completely different actors which I think that other people are glossing over. Much of what we enjoyed of the relationship was the chemistry between Jim and Steven and a new set of actors could completely change the dynamic that fans were so fond of. A Bobby/Rufus prequel won't necessarily be the better option when you factor this in.

[Smad]

I don't see how you can even do a show about Mary and John (especially given it's time frame 1970s) without also addressing the elephant in the room which the show never did. Unless you ignore it just like the original show did after the reveal. The only reason Mary and John got together was because they were supernaturally forced to via a cupid in order to force the birth of Dean and Sam. As we were told via the cupid, Mary and John hated each other. I've always wondered how extreme the hatred was considering that despite a cupid's influence their marriage was sometimes extremely shaky (the memorex heaven scene with Dean comforting Mary after the angry phone call she had with John and John having moved out for a while). Is this show just going to ignore the removal of free will and consent and act as if they were soulmates just like the original show did? I'm not sure I would be able to watch a show about these two and not constantly have that on my mind.

[MAK]

17 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

It would look like the episode Robbie wrote for S11...Safe House.  My favorite moment was when Dean  and Bobby saw each other in different timelines.  The first time Dean had seen Bobby since they burned the flask.

Great episode, I loved it, but that Bobby and Rufus were from SPN S4 (Bobby was talking about the apocalypse, and they mentioned a lead on Lilith). Also, I agree with whoever said that Jim Beaver and Steven Williams* are the reason those characters are so good.

*Does it date me if I say I liked Captain Fuller on 21 Jump Street when I watched that show in real time?

[Casseiopeia]

43 minutes ago, MAK said:

Great episode, I loved it, but that Bobby and Rufus were from SPN S4 (Bobby was talking about the apocalypse, and they mentioned a lead on Lilith)

Right but that Dean was from the present and it was the first time he had seen Bobby in any form since the flask.

I agree it would have to be very well cast for a Bobby/Rufus spinoff.

[Pondlass1]

I may be wrong but I don’t think Jensen is going to stick as closely to “Supernatural” as everyone seems to think.  After all it’s a fifteen year old show that’s taken a very wriggly route written by a variety of good/bad script writers and led by a bunch of very disparate show runners each with their own odd ideas.
 

 He’s got the characters and he’s got the premise… he can do what he wants with that.  If viewers are going to complain — oh that’s not right, because in this episode or that episode this happened or that happened— then it won’t fly.

I think he’ll give us a John that’s more like first couple of seasons John, not the whitewashed wimp dad of latter seasons. Dean is John reborn in many ways… that’s how I see John.  His moral character is dead straight, but he goes about things in a reckless, headstrong, give em hell manner.. especially when bent on revenge. Oddly tho, he’s actually the offspring of the very orderly and learned Men of Letters… a secret organization that looked down their noses at hunters in the field.

Then there’s Mary. She’s from a long line of pretty ruthless hunters. She wants out, but stays in. And she lies when it suits her.  She’s a puzzle. Actually not mother of the year. I don’t know what Jensen will do with her.  

Then there’s destiny. Cupid. All that.

 I’d love to see Jensen introduce us to a younger version of Bobby and Rufus.. they’d be what? In their 50s? Some wild and drunken scary hunting fun there.

The BIG issue as I see it is —- until Mary burned on the ceiling John doesn’t know about monsters and demons. Mary does, but John doesn’t. So how is that going to be handled? I hope not mind wipes every episode. 
 

 

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

Then there’s Mary. She’s from a long line of pretty ruthless hunters. She wants out, but stays in. And she lies when it suits her.  She’s a puzzle. Actually not mother of the year. I don’t know what Jensen will do with her.  

Just remember that Robbie is writing this and he's the showrunner.  And Jensen loves and trusts Robbie.  And Robbie loves overly empowered super women. Just look at almost all of his comics. I'm guessing Mary is going to be the most skilled hunter (at 18?) that ever existed. What he's going to do with John is a mystery.

[tessathereaper]

On 7/5/2021 at 10:35 AM, Aeryn13 said:

Since the network already once passed on Wayward Sisters/Daughters, that would be a no-deal anyway. I think the lead actress was moving on before it got even announced that it wouldn't go through. I thought the premise was pretty awful anyway.

And hells to the no for more Jackie Stu or something like that.

Creating a spin-off for SPN is gonna be hard either way. I can see why they went the prequel route. Maybe an anthology-like series of first Season John/Mary, second Season young Bobby/young Rufus etc could be a way to go if that is in the cards.

The thing about a prequel is that new fans don't really need to know anything about the 15 year long series. It'll help but it's not like there is a history behind it, this is the "start" of the history so to speak.

If CW wanted to do Wayward Sisters, they wouldn't have passed on it.  Kathryn Newton has moved onto bigger and better things in films, they'd have to recast or leave Claire out and she was pretty much as you said the main character, at least among the "Daughters". 

I actually think it's a good idea, I think we can get back into being about the Lore, which is something that really just became non-existent during the Dabb years.  We can maybe even add depth to Dean and Sam's future story, by enriching the lore.

I trust Jensen, he really cares about the show as a whole, about the universe, and Robbie is one of the better later season writers.  

[MAK]

46 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I trust Jensen, he really cares about the show as a whole, about the universe, and Robbie is one of the better later season writers.  

Yes! I will definitely give the new show a chance because the SPN universe was interesting. If it is too far off the original, but is still a good show, then canon schmanon, it can always be head-canoned as an AU.

[ahrtee]

As I see it, there are a number of ways the show can go, and most of them are interesting enough to make me want to watch at least in the beginning:

It can be about the characters and watch them develop into who we know they'll be, but not a "Supernatural" show: that is, there may be a few monster-related stories, but neither John nor Mary are working as hunters.  Mary may be needed to stop a monster in the neighborhood or may be called on by other hunters, but John doesn't know about it.   

It can be a Supernatural show, with either Mary hunting alone (lying to John) or, if they do a retcon, John learning about hunting and them working together.  It could be that's what caused the friction between them: that John wanted Mary to quit hunting and she couldn't do it.  

It doesn't necessarily have to be a retcon. It can be a retrospective show:  looking back from heaven (Dean's narration of what he learned there), so we'll know that they'll be mind wiped at some point before Mary is killed, but all stories before that can be whatever they want.  

Or, they can be wiped every time (or occasionally, or maybe at the end of each season 😊) to allow for continuity in story telling.  After all, it doesn't seem to affect the "victim" (remember Ash telling the boys that they'd been in heaven many, many times before DSOTM but the angels must have "windexed" their brains every time. )  

I think the third possibility might work the best:  the audience knows that it'll all be wiped in the end (so there won't be a huge outcry about retconning) but it'll allow the show to become an earlier version of SPN, with a kinder, gentler John (and watch him develop into a hunter) and a Mary who didn't remember the danger to Sam or how to protect the family.  If there were some remnants of memory left over, it would explain why John, a supposed hard-headed Marine, would accept Missouri's explanation so readily and become such a super hunter so quickly, and why Mary recognized Azazel when he showed up.

I'm assuming John and Mary will start out like they were in In the Beginning, when they both were likeable and hopeful.  John apparently didn't know about the MoL, or I would think he might have been told that his father died in the fire that destroyed the "clubhouse" that night instead of that he'd just abandoned him.  (Did John's mother know about the MoL? But that's a whole different story...)    

ETA: I realize some people may see that as a cheat, as in "why should I bother watching this when I know it'll all be wiped out in the end, so it's pointless," but isn't that pretty much what any tv show is about?  ☺️ The fun is in watching how characters react to whatever situations they're put in (and hopefully how they grow/change from it) so knowing it'll all be wiped out is more poignant than cheating, especially when you're warned in advance and it's not an unwelcome surprise.  JMO, of course!

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by ahrtee

[gonzosgirrl]

Look at Superman & Lois currently on the CW. Granted, I don't know a lot about the wider Superman universe (comic books). But while they are Superman/Clark Kent and Lois Lane, and the broadstrokes are things I 'know' (she's a reporter, he came to Earth as a child and was raised by the Kents in Smallville, he has this Kryptonian ice-lair-whatever), the rest of it is like nothing else I've seen before. It's a new/different take on familiar characters, and I'm there for it. I'm sure there are die-hard Superman fans who haaaaaaaaaaate it, just like there will be SPN purists who will never give this a chance - but there are many directions they can go and not have it be the trashfire some are predicting just because we 'know' John and Mary's history.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

ETA: I realize some people may see that as a cheat, as in "why should I bother watching this when I know it'll all be wiped out in the end, so it's pointless," but isn't that pretty much what any tv show is about?

I loved Titanic, and I was pretty sure the boat was going to sink. :)

Edited July 6, 2021 by gonzosgirrl

[tessathereaper]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Look at Superman & Lois currently on the CW. Granted, I don't know a lot about the wider Superman universe (comic books). But while they are Superman/Clark Kent and Lois Lane, and the broadstrokes are things I 'know' (she's a reporter, he came to Earth as a child and was raised by the Kents in Smallville, he has this Kryptonian ice-lair-whatever), the rest of it is like nothing else I've seen before. It's a new/different take on familiar characters, and I'm there for it. I'm sure there are die-hard Superman fans who haaaaaaaaaaate it, just like there will be SPN purists who will never give this a chance - but there are many directions they can go and not have it be the trashfire some are predicting just because we 'know' John and Mary's history.

I loved Titanic, and I was pretty sure the boat was going to sink. :)

It's like some say "Why didn't they do a young Dean and Sam instead?" Um...isn't that the same problem?  We know how their story ends and we sure know a heck of a lot more about Dean and Sam's lives, even what wasn't the basis of an episode than we do about John and Mary's lives.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

just like there will be SPN purists who will never give this a chance

If SPN fans were able to limp along to the finish line after Dabb demolished all prior canon then it shouldn't be a hardship to give the prequel a shot. JMO.

[7kstar]

6 hours ago, ahrtee said:

As I see it, there are a number of ways the show can go, and most of them are interesting enough to make me want to watch at least in the beginning:

This is the one thing, we don't know, but going back to the beginning could allow for some fresh eyes and get back to some of the basics that drew people in.   I would most likely give it a chance but if I didn't like it, well, I wouldn't stick with it.  So that first conflict needs to really needs to draw us in. 

11 hours ago, MAK said:

*Does it date me if I say I liked Captain Fuller on 21 Jump Street when I watched that show in real time?

Now, why am I laughing when I see this?  :)  I think the one thing they could do is answer some questions we don't know and if they do it well, we'll allow some of the issues to be ignored.

[DeeDee79]

12 hours ago, MAK said:

*Does it date me if I say I liked Captain Fuller on 21 Jump Street when I watched that show in real time?

I always think of when he played Mulder's informant Mr. X from The X-Files when he's on screen. I was particularly giddy when he and Mitch Pileggi appeared in the same episode!

[Lastcall]

22 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Just remember that Robbie is writing this and he's the showrunner.  And Jensen loves and trusts Robbie.  And Robbie loves overly empowered super women. Just look at almost all of his comics. I'm guessing Mary is going to be the most skilled hunter (at 18?) that ever existed. What he's going to do with John is a mystery.

That's what worries me. They shouldn't start out as the best hunters in the world from episode one. It took years for Sam and Dean to become as great as they were. They started with ghost cases and even the creature hunts were usually just one monster. One vampire nest was extremely dangerous and Demons were a very big deal. And as good as they were, they still died on hunts. One of they things that annoyed me about Charlie is that there was no way Dark Charlie should have been able to hold her own against a Mark of Cain Dean. I found Nick beating Sam to death actually offensive. I hope they start the show with Mary (and I guess John) being very good but still having to struggle on the hunts. Characters need to earn greatness and the audience shouldn't be told that they are just great from day one. 

What I'm most interested in is the Dean narration. I could see Dean being on camera for at least the pilot but I don't know if Jensen wants to lock in the series finale or not. It could be told before the finale or he could be in heaven talking to just about anyone. It would make sense for him to be on camera for pilot and it looks like he has greater plans than just the prequel. Jensen has told us the plan in interviews, 3 to 5 years then a 6 episode reboot on Netflix, Hulu or whatever. The slight worry there is he said it was just Jack resurrecting them. I hope the Prequel is more creative then that. The best option would be a Dean voiceover like Young Sheldon. We don't know who Dean is talking to or he is simply talking to the viewer. I'm most excited about this part. There is a lot of opportunities for Dean to make comments on his history or thoughts on everything in general. There will could be moments like "Mom and I were hunting some ghouls in Kansas City, after we cleared it, she told me the story of X". He could revisit the old show and maybe add a new perspective from Dean's point of view. Lot of potential there.

[Casseiopeia]

58 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

there was no way Dark Charlie should have been able to hold her own against a Mark of Cain Dean

At that point Dean thought it was just Charlie. I think he was trying not to hurt her (and he did eventually beat the crap out of her).  In Mary's case she is like Sam and Dean, she was raised in the life from birth.  And Samuel was just as driven to make her into uber hunter as John was with his sons. When we met the brothers they were already skilled hunters.  Mary was supposedly just as skilled but lacked access to the technology that the brothers were born into.

John on the other hand will be off to Vietnam in 1972 and clueless about the supernatural so I'm not sure how his story fits in.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Casseiopeia

[companionenvy]

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

At that point Dean thought it was just Charlie. I think he was trying not to hurt her (and he did eventually beat the crap out of her).  In Mary's case she is like Sam and Dean, she was raised in the life from birth.  And Samuel was just as driven to make her into uber hunter as John was with his sons. When we met the brothers they were already skilled hunters.  Mary was supposedly just as skilled but lacked access to the technology that the brothers were born into.

John on the other hand will be off to Vietnam in 1972 and clueless about the supernatural so I'm not sure how his story fits in.

There was some disconnect, though, in that the show really seemed to be pushing the idea that Mary was as good or maybe even better as her sons. Realistically, her experience level would probably have put her somewhere between season 1 Sam and season 1 Dean--in other words, certainly a skilled hunter, but not someone going toe to toe with celestial and demonic beings on the regular. Though I suppose there's room for retconning that in the new series.

[Casseiopeia]

 

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

There was some disconnect, though, in that the show really seemed to be pushing the idea that Mary was as good or maybe even better as her sons. Realistically, her experience level would probably have put her somewhere between season 1 Sam and season 1 Dean--in other words, certainly a skilled hunter, but not someone going toe to toe with celestial and demonic beings on the regular. Though I suppose there's room for retconning that in the new series.

I agree Dabb was pushing woman power to promote Wayward Sisters. So Mary had to be better than her sons.

Edited July 7, 2021 by Casseiopeia

[Myrelle]

5 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

John on the other hand will be off to Vietnam in 1972 and clueless about the supernatural so I'm not sure how his story fits in.

Maybe we'll get some war scenes.

In fact, I'd bet on it. 

[Lastcall]

7 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

At that point Dean thought it was just Charlie. I think he was trying not to hurt her (and he did eventually beat the crap out of her).  In Mary's case she is like Sam and Dean, she was raised in the life from birth.  And Samuel was just as driven to make her into uber hunter as John was with his sons. When we met the brothers they were already skilled hunters.  Mary was supposedly just as skilled but lacked access to the technology that the brothers were born into.

John on the other hand will be off to Vietnam in 1972 and clueless about the supernatural so I'm not sure how his story fits in.

     I will give Robbie and Carver this, Charlie didn't beat Dean which is a lesson completely forgotten by the next generation of writers. Now 18 year Mary should be a skilled and capable hunter. I can't see her upbringing with Samuel to be worse then Dean's with John. If it was it is very weird that Mary married someone like her Father and more creepy that Samuel was willing to sacrifice his grandchildren to bring her back. Like others have written, she should be around the Sam level in season one. Sam and Dean were good in season one but they got beat down regularly and Dean was even going to die from the Rawhead hunt. They usually hunted one thing and that thing was a major episode fight. They really didn't start facing large groups of foes until season 3 and they usually had help with those. The main thing I hated with 11 on is you can see Sam and Dean become almost gods by the end of 10. When they got beat or killed there was usually a reason like Metatron had the power of God's tablet. By the time Dabb was running things they were beaten by not only writer pets but randos and stunt demons #12-14.

     Mary should be good and we should see her become great not start great. John should be a good fighter/soldier but really out of his depth. He should slowly become a good then great hunter.  

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

John should be a good fighter/soldier but really out of his depth. He should slowly become a good then great hunter.

I really can't see how they are going to mesh his story with canon. John didn't become a great hunter until after Mary died. So we have to go back to angel/demon mind wipe. Did Mary have Azazel erase all their hunting adventures when she made the deal? Or was he constantly brainwashed into thinking his then girlfriend was getting beat up....because?

[Pondlass1]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

John didn't become a great hunter until after Mary died. S

This is the bit that doesn’t compute.  I don’t know how Jensen plans to manage this. John   hunted out of rabid revenge because wifey had died. Mary hunted because it was the family business and she knew things, she knew the scary monster underbelly bu5 didn’t bother to tell John 

What’s the timeline plann3d?

But  I just have to have faith in Jensen. It ain’t gonna last 15 seasons tho 😟