S07.E12: Older

[ElectricBoogaloo]

SERIES FINALE!

Quote

Charles and Liza make amends and promise not to lie anymore, but Kelsey's plans force Liza to withhold the truth. Lauren plans a romantic reunion. Sparks fly between Maggie and an enemy-turned-friend.

Original air date: 6/10/21

Edited June 10, 2021 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Promo:

 

[angeleyes4477]

ok, everyone got their happy ending....yay, I guess... But, no Diana sighting, or even a mention :( 

And, Liza didn't end up with anyone. Weird.

[Aulty]

I didn't know what to expect tbh and I am not mad about how they chose to end the show for each character, but I found the way they told those stories really really annoying.

The hands down best scene of the episode was Liza realising that she and Charles will not last. Then cut to the next day and she agrees to run her future ex's company. This makes NO sense. Diana coud run Empirical.
Charles himself spent the first half the episode starring in a luxury tech commercial.

All I could think about during the back and forth with Ikubator was that Liza surely is entitled to a hefty stake in that project.
Now we also now where they want to take the rumored Kelsey spin-off. (edit: the spin-off is not happening)

No Diana? BOOO
The Musical? BOOOOOO - although they should've had Lauren Graham on stage to close the circle between this and the dreadful musical in the Gilmore Girls revival.
The last minute thruple for Lauren? Not ooc, but that screentime belonged to Diana.
The last minute passion play between Maggie and the dean? Maggie deserves better. Maggie deserves a Diana. (I am mega-bummed that we never got more interaction between Maggie and Diana)

In my opinion, this should've been a 4 seasons show.

Anyway, thank youse all for the chat the comments on this show. I enjoyed reading everyone's opinions as much as I enjoyed watching the show - sometimes probably more ;-)

Edited June 10, 2021 by Aulty

[skotnikov]

I'm kinda ambiguous about the ending, but I like they didn't go stereotype root, and let Liza and Josh have (probably) another chance. Diana ending up with Charles would be just horrible.    

[dmc]

sooo no one got a happy ending.  Cool.

Just like real life

[MissLucas]

Well, I'm glad that's over with. But I can't believe there's gonna be a Kelsey spin-off. Definitely out on that one. Her 'career' was probably the worst thing about the whole show. Almost every time she screwed up her counterpart turned out to be a misogynistic asshole (or the patriarchy being the patriarchy) and it was never her fault. Also: Inkubator was half of Liza's project too but somehow that never played a part in any of these business 'deliberations'? *sigh*

Hi, Charles' daughter, it's nice show finally remembered that you might have feelings about your Dad's love life too. Let's hope his writing career takes off so that he can afford all the therapy sessions you and your sister will need.

My initial reaction after Maggie's date: Run, Maggie - run! Apparently I'm out of tune with romance.

I always wished for Liza to end up with Josh and not go down the stereotypical route. But this felt forced and not earned - at least they kept it vague.

Oh well, show had its moments and like many others it suffered from being stretched out far too long. It was fun even if it turned into snark-watching by the end.  Thanks all for the great discussions!

[NeenerNeener]

I'm vaguely dissatisfied with the ending. I agree that they should have done this show in 4 seasons.

[marny]

I was sufficiently satisfied with the ending. I was glad it didn’t end with Charles and Liza together— he clearly wasn’t able to fully trust her and she would have spent the entire relationship walking on eggshells. She deserves to have some fun with Josh again instead of all that melodrama. 
 

As for Kelsey, she’s at the right age and time of work/life to be making big moves and stretching herself, so it makes sense for her to progress beyond the same old same old that would have inevitably happened if she stays in NYC. 
Lauren was always more of a “character” than a person so I’m fine that her life is still just floating along the same way. 
And Maggie realizing that she may be finally interested in an actual relationship is enough for me. 
I would have loved more Diana this season but I’ll just add that to the list of things about the world that the pandemic ruined. 

[slowpoked]

4 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I always wished for Liza to end up with Josh and not go down the stereotypical route. But this felt forced and not earned - at least they kept it vague.

I have also been always Team Josh. And I’m a little bit surprised that she didn’t end up with Charles since that it felt to me that’s where this show would eventually go. Throughout the show, I felt like it was sometimes unfair to Josh’s character, when most of the time it felt like he was being written just as the main barrier before Liza ends up with her one true love.

So while I’m glad that the ending was ambiguous, and it seems that Liza and Josh might have another chance again down the road, it didn’t feel earned. They basically closed the chapter on Liza and Josh at the first episode, and they barely interacted in the episodes that follow. But maybe the whole thing with their lack of interaction this season is what the last lines of the show was referring to:

Liza: Sorry, I didn’t see you there.

Josh: I’ve always been here, at your side. 
 

And joining the chorus of boos to no Diana at the finale. I thought she would be a surprise guest at the anniversary party - I mean, she’s still an employee, right?! And an important one too.

For awhile there, I thought Kelsey’s big secret surprise investor was going to be Diana. Especially when she was describing her investor as someone who empowers women, and who has been under their noses all along. 

What was the point of the musical? That could have been airtime for Diana. There might have been a point to it, but I missed it.

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by slowpoked

[bluemoonstars]

1 hour ago, slowpoked said:

I have also been always Team Josh. And I’m a little bit surprised that she didn’t end up with Charles since that it felt to me that’s where this show would eventually go. Throughout the show, I felt like it was sometimes unfair to Josh’s character, when most of the time it felt like he was being written just as the main barrier before Liza ends up with her one true love.

So while I’m glad that the ending was ambiguous, and it seems that Liza and Josh might have another chance again down the road, it didn’t feel earned. They basically closed the chapter on Liza and Josh at the first episode, and they barely interacted in the episodes that follow. But maybe the whole thing with their lack of interaction this season is what the last lines of the show was referring to:

Liza: Sorry, I didn’t see you there.

Josh: I’ve always been here, at your side. 
 

And joining the chorus of boos to no Diana at the finale. I thought she would be a surprise guest at the anniversary party - I mean, she’s still an employee, right?! And an important one too.

For awhile there, I thought Kelsey’s big secret surprise investor was going to be Diana. Especially when she was describing her investor as someone who empowers women, and who has been under their noses all along. 

What was the point of the musical? That could have been airtime for Diana. There might have been a point to it, but I missed it.

 

Agreed. I was actually in favor of Liza choosing herself and being alone, but I'm glad she didn't end up with Charles because as great as he is, he will always be the safe choice- just like Aiden was the safe, appropriate choice for Carrie. But I still found it came out of nowhere. I would've been happier if they spent season 7 building on the groundwork they laid in season 6 with Liza realizing she still had some feelings for Josh instead not interacting during season 7 then BAM- last 30 seconds they consider giving their relationship another chance. 

[bluemoonstars]

5 hours ago, marny said:

I was sufficiently satisfied with the ending. I was glad it didn’t end with Charles and Liza together— he clearly wasn’t able to fully trust her and she would have spent the entire relationship walking on eggshells. She deserves to have some fun with Josh again instead of all that melodrama. 
 

As for Kelsey, she’s at the right age and time of work/life to be making big moves and stretching herself, so it makes sense for her to progress beyond the same old same old that would have inevitably happened if she stays in NYC. 
Lauren was always more of a “character” than a person so I’m fine that her life is still just floating along the same way. 
And Maggie realizing that she may be finally interested in an actual relationship is enough for me. 
I would have loved more Diana this season but I’ll just add that to the list of things about the world that the pandemic ruined. 

Same. I think Charles will never fully trust her because he's still not over her previous lies, and Liza is never really going to want to go back to the conventional life that she had with David that Charles wants (marriage and all that). I think they're incompatible in that aspect because Liza wanted a relationship that was similar to what she and Josh talked about at the beginning of the season- a relationship that you choose to be in but it doesn't require all of the shackles of traditional marriage, and does not need to be so heavily defined. Charles does not want this because he doesn't fully trust that Liza loves him completely- honestly ever since he said that whole "Am I competing with Josh?" thing I knew he didn't really trust that she loved him. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by bluemoonstars

[tennisgurl]

That was alright as far as finales go, add me to the chorus that this show should have ended a few seasons ago when it was still frothy fun before it started running on fumes and stale comedy bits. I am more or less happy with how everyone ended up, and I am especially glad that Charles and Liza didn't end up together. I don't hate them or Charles, but it was clear that they would always have these trust issues, ending with her possibly getting back with Josh was a nice way to close out Liza's dating life. I was sure that she and Charles would end up together, so I am glad at least that the show side stepped that cliché, even if I wish that they had spent more time building up a possible Liza and Josh reconciliation instead of jerking everyone around with Charles/Liza. 

I hate that we didn't even get a cameo from Diana, ending the show without her feels wrong. She couldn't have even Zoomed in? I was excited that she might have been Kelsey's new backer but nope, that would have made too much sense. 

What was the point of that musical? We could have been using that time to have Josh and Liza have a scene together before they get together, or have a Diana cameo. There were a lot of "why?" moments in general, all of these scenes that just seemed pointless when you only have so many scenes left in your finale episode. 

As much as I like Kelsey in general, I have never been very impressed by her business choices, especially as the show always tries to sell her as being so amazing at her job. Isn't Liza part owner of Inkubator? Why is Kelsey making all these business choices without her, or without making any real plans beyond asking her boyfriend to talk to people for her? Good thing she is always running into these smug misogynists that she can blame all of her failures on. 

So not an awful finale, but not one that was particularly satisfying. Except for Charles and Liza not getting together, its what I expected. 

[BingeyKohan]

It feels sort of like the Mad Men finale (but way way worse, hopefully that goes without saying) with Liza staying at the safe, established company (like Peggy) and Kelsey going out west (like Don). 

[slowpoked]

2 hours ago, bluemoonstars said:

Same. I think Charles will never fully trust her because he's still not over her previous lies, and Liza is never really going to want to go back to the conventional life that she had with David that Charles wants (marriage and all that). I think they're incompatible in that aspect because Liza wanted a relationship that was similar to what she and Josh talked about at the beginning of the season- a relationship that you choose to be in but it doesn't require all of the shackles of traditional marriage, and does not need to be so heavily defined. Charles does not want this because he doesn't fully trust that Liza loves him completely- honestly ever since he said that whole "Am I competing with Josh?" thing I knew he didn't really trust that she loved him. 

I guess I never warmed up to Charles, even though he was sold to me as the “old-school, brooding gentleman type” that the heroine always ends up with, because he reminded me so much of Mr. Big in SATC. Sure, Charles wasn’t that much of a dick to Liza compared to how Big was to Carrie, but they just seemed so….dry. Like, when have we seen Liza and Charles have a lively, spirited conversation?! It seemed that both with Liza and Carrie, they had to be the bubbly ones in the relationship, while Charles and Big were the stoic ones. 

From how I saw it, Liza just seemed more alive when she was with Josh, and it’s not just because he was of the younger generation. Even though they were a serious and exclusive couple, there was just something with Liza and Josh that was easygoing, laidback and relaxing. Like someone said above, Liza seemed to be always walking on eggshells with Charles, even during their truly good times together. Just like how Carrie was with Big - always on eggshells, afraid she’ll make one wrong move that will piss off Big. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Well, that was anti-climactic. Despite the fact that this was a double episode, it felt like almost nothing happened. Couldn't we have achieved that in a regular half hour episode?

The most unbelievable thing in the episode (of which there were many) was that Josh has enough money to buy an entire building in Williamsburg.

I'm just glad that Charles and Liza didn't end up together. Realizing that their relationship couldn't weather everything that they'd been through was the most realistic thing in this entire episode (well, that and the dinner bill when Maggie and Cass went out).

Also hilarious: Charles telling Lauren to just do a small inexpensive dinner for the Empirical anniversary and then ending up with all of that.

[ichbin]

Bit of a stretch on the degree of being notorious among the characters in that ridiculous musical number and the inclusion of Liza as the "star".  

I sense I am in the minority on this but I am disappointed Liza and Charles did not end up together.   

[bluemoonstars]

1 hour ago, slowpoked said:

I guess I never warmed up to Charles, even though he was sold to me as the “old-school, brooding gentleman type” that the heroine always ends up with, because he reminded me so much of Mr. Big in SATC. Sure, Charles wasn’t that much of a dick to Liza compared to how Big was to Carrie, but they just seemed so….dry. Like, when have we seen Liza and Charles have a lively, spirited conversation?! It seemed that both with Liza and Carrie, they had to be the bubbly ones in the relationship, while Charles and Big were the stoic ones. 

From how I saw it, Liza just seemed more alive when she was with Josh, and it’s not just because he was of the younger generation. Even though they were a serious and exclusive couple, there was just something with Liza and Josh that was easygoing, laidback and relaxing. Like someone said above, Liza seemed to be always walking on eggshells with Charles, even during their truly good times together. Just like how Carrie was with Big - always on eggshells, afraid she’ll make one wrong move that will piss off Big. 

I always thought Charles was like Aiden- the guy you're with because he's perfect on paper- he's the one you probably should be with but it just never works out that way. Like Aiden was perfect for Carrie and very forgiving- he was the guy she should have chosen because he was easier, he was safe- just like Charles- Charles is perfect but ultimately he is the safe, easy choice. It's harder to be with a Josh type because you never know what might happen next. It steps outside of the old-school relationship box and it's the exact opposite of the life you had or the life you thought you were going to have. 

And I think they shared cute geeky moments (Hemingway exhibit) and sweet moments like the sea glass carousel. So I can admit they had sweet moments but they were sweet moments with the person that is predictable... and Liza's whole thing this entire series was stepping away from the predictable.

Edited June 10, 2021 by bluemoonstars

[bluemoonstars]

4 minutes ago, ichbin said:

Bit of a stretch on the degree of being notorious among the characters in that ridiculous musical number and the inclusion of Liza as the "star".  

I sense I am in the minority on this but I am disappointed Liza and Charles did not end up together.   

Even though I was in favor of Liza ending up alone, I do feel a bit bad for Charles because even though I didn't love him that much( I just thought he was too old fashioned and a little too predictable for what the show was aiming for in terms of changing your life), I still like the character overall, and thought he was a very still waters run deep type of character, and had a bit of a brooding GenX thing (very latchkey kid and the 90s)that I found entertaining.

The one thing I didn't like though was him testing her but I also think he hasn't fully trusted her since he asked her in season 6 if he was still competing with Josh, and that insane fly to Chicago to explain a picture because phones no longer exist thing. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by bluemoonstars

[LuvMyShows]

14 hours ago, angeleyes4477 said:

And, Liza didn't end up with anyone. Weird.

I don't know if anyone watches the Getting Younger aftershow, but I decided to watch it because it was the finale, and the woman who is the host completely misunderstood the ending, and she opened the show by saying something like, "I knew all along it was Team Josh!", and then Darren Starr had to explain the ending, and that actually Liza doesn't end up with either guy.

It was a little annoying hearing Darren say that Liza doesn't need either guy to complete her -- she is complete on her own -- when I don't think that ending up with anyone would have meant that she thought she needed them to complete her...how about she could have chosen one guy to be with, to complement her already complete life/essence.

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'm just glad that Charles and Liza didn't end up together. Realizing that their relationship couldn't weather everything that they'd been through was the most realistic thing in this entire episode (well, that and the dinner bill when Maggie and Cass went out).

Funny, I found that to be entirely unrealistic.  Cass has been in NYC for quite a while, so on what planet would she ever have thought that $40 would cover her half at a restaurant like that??  Also, wasn't Cass the one who selected the restaurant in the first place?

1 hour ago, ichbin said:

Bit of a stretch on the degree of being notorious among the characters in that ridiculous musical number and the inclusion of Liza as the "star".  

That was truly odd.  Even in the world of the show, that whole Liza lying thing took place years ago, and I can't imagine that the NYC musical theater community would have considered her to be notorious or even memorable.  And am I the only one who kept thinking, as they kept singing, that it would somehow have a call-out to Liza?

1 hour ago, ichbin said:

I sense I am in the minority on this but I am disappointed Liza and Charles did not end up together.   

Me too!  She really did love him, and he loved her, and in so many ways they were good for each other.  If they were going to not end up together, I wanted it to be for something significant.  But this?  I am almost fanatical about being truthful, but her not telling him that she submitted his work for the Yaddo retreat did not seem bothersome to me at all, nor was it bothersome what Charles did about wanting to hear from Liza herself about the Inkubator proposal stuff, yet those things really bothered each of them.  So I felt like that was sort of a wimpy reason for them to break up.  I also didn't like how Darren Starr characterized it as how basically Charles had concerns about Liza's "integrity"...for some reason, that sounds stuck-up and a**hole-ish, and I don't get the sense that that's how the Charles character really viewed her.

11 hours ago, marny said:

Lauren was always more of a “character” than a person so I’m fine that her life is still just floating along the same way. 

I saw the reveal about Max coming from a mile away as that conversation progressed.  But at a deeper level, how shitty that the writers thought that having Lauren leave this big party that she planned, to go to the hospital to meet with Max, would have been romantic or desirable.  He can f-ing wait until the party is over to talk to her.  

[MerBearHou]

I just watched the finale.  I’d been spoiled on the details which is actually my preference on something like this.  I like going in knowing and then watch how it plays out.  

It’s funny seeing all of these people on Facebook and Instagram losing their minds over “Liza ends up on #TeamJosh”!!!  I didn’t see it that way at all.  He is a precious man, to be sure, but I now just see a cherished big sister/adoring little brother vibe (at least from Liza to Josh, not the other way around).  Long term, I don’t endorse a Liza/Josh relationship.  Nope.  She’s outgrown him.  

I am absolutely thrilled that Liza has been asked to lead Empirical.   Liza would be a wonderful leader, especially since who knows where Diana went.  Liza was a cooler head and had way better book instincts than Kelsey (a horrible businesswoman, I believe) and can pull people together.  

I also feel like there is a way for Liza and Charles to make their way back to each other.  She told Kelsey she is in love with him — you don’t say those words lightly — and he absolutely is in love with her.  The little truth tests he put her through were weird and out-of-character writing, I felt.  I love that he’s old world/old school — that is not a negative to me.  I am fully Team Charles.  Last week, when he didn’t get on that plane, I was giddy happy for them.

I liked that the story showed it’s time for the group to “break up” a bit (though remaining always devoted pals) — Kelsey to CA, Josh moving on up, Maggie with Cass (ugh, really do not care for Cass and it was hard to even look at Janeane G — Maggie deserves someone much, much better), Lauren being her fabulous self, and Liza making a MAJOR leap in her beloved publishing and books world.  I’m delighted for Charles and his Yaddo writing workshop and believe that those weeks away will clear things in his mind.

Call me clueless but I didn’t see the Max surprise coming at all.  

I have only discovered this show recently.  Had heard of it but never watched.  I binged it and fell in love with it.  I’m so, so sad it’s over.  May have to start it all over again.

And it cannot be said enough, Diana (Miriam Shor) was a favorite and she was missed in a BIG, BIG way.  

Edited June 11, 2021 by MerBearHou

[LuvMyShows]

Maybe I'm too much of a pragmatist, but I didn't see why Kelsey got so freaking upset at what's-his-name when he showed her that he had gotten an Inkubator offer 3x more than Charles' offer, and then she saw a 20% cut for him.  Yes, all he did was send emails...but to people he had been cultivating for years, and she still would have reaped major benefits from the deal.  Why isn't it win-win for both of them and they go celebrate?  

[MerBearHou]

1 hour ago, LuvMyShows said:

It was a little annoying hearing Darren say that Liza doesn't need either guy to complete her -- she is complete on her own -- when I don't think that ending up with anyone would have meant that she thought she needed them to complete her...how about she could have chosen one guy to be with, to complement her already complete life/essence.

Agree with you 1000%.  Just because you choose to make a life with someone you love doesn’t mean you are trying to fill an “incompleteness”.  

Kelsey could have negotiated that 20% fee of Rob’s, but she got all indignant ONCE AGAIN and threw out the opportunity without even taking a breath.  

[gesundheit]

18 hours ago, angeleyes4477 said:

ok, everyone got their happy ending....yay, I guess... But, no Diana sighting, or even a mention :( 

And, Liza didn't end up with anyone. Weird.

Color me surprised. I can't help but wonder if it was a How I Met Your Mother thing where they shot two endings. I don't know. It all just seemed so weird to spend the whole season building up to the reunion and then drop it like that. I don't even like them together but it felt like a waste of a season for all of us, pro Liza/Charles or anti!

10 hours ago, slowpoked said:

And joining the chorus of boos to no Diana at the finale. I thought she would be a surprise guest at the anniversary party - I mean, she’s still an employee, right?! And an important one too.

For awhile there, I thought Kelsey’s big secret surprise investor was going to be Diana. Especially when she was describing her investor as someone who empowers women, and who has been under their noses all along.

 

Absolutely thought Diana was going to walk in right at that moment. I can't believe they didn't utter her name. Also, how much time has it been since the beginning? 3 years tops? Someone who's an entry level assistant is EIC in 3 years, but Diana once again forgotten WITH NO MENTION.

4 hours ago, bluemoonstars said:

Even though I was in favor of Liza ending up alone, I do feel a bit bad for Charles because even though I didn't love him that much( I just thought he was too old fashioned and a little too predictable for what the show was aiming for in terms of changing your life), I still like the character overall, and thought he was a very still waters run deep type of character, and had a bit of a brooding GenX thing (very latchkey kid and the 90s)that I found entertaining.

Oh god, I'm Gen X and I feel like Charles seems old enough to be my dad! Now I feel ancient because, yep, we're the same generation.

This show with all their little fantasies. Oh, Sure, Cass never did any art, she just went straight to teaching! Totally, that's absolutely how you get to be dean of the "most prestigious art school in NYC" or whatever it was supposed to be (SVA?). Sure, Younger! Oh and for Yaddo, you can absolutely just send in a draft of someone's novel. No artistic statement, no letter of intent, no references, no signature even! Easy. And yeah, I'm sure that 4 week residency means he should quit his career in publishing.

Also, Josh is loaded now? I guess he was making a ton of money that one season when he was in magazines, and he has always owned a business. But that was a lot. Bizarre for a multi-millionaire to be sharing a one-bedroom apartment with two women and a baby all this time.

Anyway as usual I'm overthinking the details of what's supposed to be a whimsical fantasy type show. I'm still over here confused about how she ever got e-verified by HR and faced no fraud charges by the DHS! Probably not how we're meant to watch such shows.

The snarking's been fun, you guys! 

[slowpoked]

5 hours ago, bluemoonstars said:

I always thought Charles was like Aiden- the guy you're with because he's perfect on paper- he's the one you probably should be with but it just never works out that way. Like Aiden was perfect for Carrie and very forgiving- he was the guy she should have chosen because he was easier, he was safe- just like Charles- Charles is perfect but ultimately he is the safe, easy choice. It's harder to be with a Josh type because you never know what might happen next. It steps outside of the old-school relationship box and it's the exact opposite of the life you had or the life you thought you were going to have. 

It’s truly interesting how the characters can be significantly perceived differently. I equated Charles with Big because I felt that Charles always had the “unattainable” air to him, just like Big had. And while I wouldn’t equate Aiden with Josh, I’ve always thought Josh was the easy, safe choice for Liza, because like he said, he’s always been there for her, and truly, madly loved her.

 

2 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

then she saw a 20% cut for him.  Yes, all he did was send emails...but to people he had been cultivating for years, and she still would have reaped major benefits from the deal.  Why isn't it win-win for both of them and they go celebrate? 

I actually wasn’t offended by that part of the deal because Rob is right - his contacts are valuable, and therefore he should get some value in exchange for them. It’s when he started saying that women are always asking for extra privileges is when I was, boy, bye.

55 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

Also, Josh is loaded now? I guess he was making a ton of money that one season when he was in magazines, and he has always owned a business. But that was a lot

For some reason, the show has always given a vibe that the tattoo shop was making a lot of money, and that Josh was one of the more popular artists in the city, so he was sought after. Also, he made a good deal when he licensed his artwork to Forever 21. Heck, it’s actually a good surprise to see Josh loaded. Usually, you would peg his generation as big spenders and not savers. Good for him for having a sound financial situation.

[Aulty]

I've let the dust settle on the final a bit now, and I still can't believe (although thats more or less how the books Younger is based on ended) that Liza would stay on the be Publisher at Empirical where she has to answer to a Chicaco midlife-crisis sausage fest that only allows her to publish well established authors - something she has rebelled against, via Inkubator, for much of the season.
And she works for her grumpy ex.
And she would be Diana's boos.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

If they were going to not end up together, I wanted it to be for something significant.  But this?  I am almost fanatical about being truthful, but her not telling him that she submitted his work for the Yaddo retreat did not seem bothersome to me at all, nor was it bothersome what Charles did about wanting to hear from Liza herself about the Inkubator proposal stuff, yet those things really bothered each of them.  So I felt like that was sort of a wimpy reason for them to break up. 

I think that it was significant. They both realized that Charles was never going to fully trust her because she lied to him for so long. When they first began dating, they were caught up in finally being able to act upon their feelings which was exciting. That was compounded by all the sneaking around.

But between Charles testing Liza by not revealing he knew about the Inkubator offers and then being upset when Liza said she wouldn't have told him she had submitted his manuscript to Yaddo if he hadn't been accepted, it became clear that Charles has some deep-seated trust issues with her.

I'm of the opinion that if you can't trust the person you're with, you shouldn't bother being together. It's not fair to either person. Charles will always be suspicious and Liza will always be walking on eggshells, neither of which is healthy. It creates a very unhealthy power dynamic where Liza would always be trying to prove that she is being honest and worthy of his trust. It's similar to relationships where one person has cheated and the other person can no longer trust them.

Beyond that, the reason that they broke up hadn't changed - he is still the kind of guy who wants to get married and Liza said that she wasn't interested in doing that. No matter how much you love each other, that isn't going to change your mind or the other person's mind about something like that.

[Yeah No]

Well, add me to those vaguely dissatisfied with the ending, although I didn't really expect to be satisfied.  I was the person telling everyone not to be so sure her ending up with Charles was a done deal even several episodes into the season.  This show did nothing but screw with our minds, flip flop back and forth, then set us up and let us down in the end.  I knew it wasn't done with messing with us, nor was it going to be the fairy tale ending of SATC.  I hate endings that seem to imply something the writers didn't intend.  It doesn't surprise me that those on team Josh saw this as them ending up together.  Wishful thinking, but despite what Darren Starr said, the writing gave them reason to feel that way.  What pisses me off is that the show could have gone in any direction but this season chose to turn Charles into an even stuffier fossil way older in mentality than his actual years, and surely not what would be best for Liza.  Meanwhile it did no such take down of Josh.  There was no reason for that.  They could have written Charles in a very different way.  It was just a let down to anyone that held out hope for the two of them as a couple.  Meanwhile there is no let down for the Josh fans, in fact there is hope for a future between them.  So I really don't agree with Darren Starr that she ends up with neither of them when the writing is leaning toward Josh as the right choice for her.  I think he wants to sell it to the audience that way so as not to make any side feel happier with the outcome than the other, but I seriously doubt that most people who favored her with Charles would see it that way.  To us the writing is clearly favoring Josh.

[Yeah No]

11 hours ago, bluemoonstars said:

Agreed. I was actually in favor of Liza choosing herself and being alone, but I'm glad she didn't end up with Charles because as great as he is, he will always be the safe choice- just like Aiden was the safe, appropriate choice for Carrie. But I still found it came out of nowhere. I would've been happier if they spent season 7 building on the groundwork they laid in season 6 with Liza realizing she still had some feelings for Josh instead not interacting during season 7 then BAM- last 30 seconds they consider giving their relationship another chance. 

 

7 hours ago, bluemoonstars said:

I always thought Charles was like Aiden- the guy you're with because he's perfect on paper- he's the one you probably should be with but it just never works out that way. Like Aiden was perfect for Carrie and very forgiving- he was the guy she should have chosen because he was easier, he was safe- just like Charles- Charles is perfect but ultimately he is the safe, easy choice. It's harder to be with a Josh type because you never know what might happen next. It steps outside of the old-school relationship box and it's the exact opposite of the life you had or the life you thought you were going to have. 

And I think they shared cute geeky moments (Hemingway exhibit) and sweet moments like the sea glass carousel. So I can admit they had sweet moments but they were sweet moments with the person that is predictable... and Liza's whole thing this entire series was stepping away from the predictable.

Wow, that's interesting, I never saw Aiden as perfect for Carrie, in fact I felt the show often showed just how disappointing Aiden was to Carrie because he was so different from her and really didn't "get" her.  I just happened to catch the "Suffern" episode where Carrie goes with Aiden to his rustic upstate summer cabin where this point was driven home for me yet again.  And I didn't see him as all that forgiving either.  I think Josh's character was way more forgiving.  Aiden was more of a brooding, mistrusting type while Josh was always so light and easygoing.

I also never saw Charles as the "safe" or predictable choice.  He was more of the unattainable "Big" type, maybe with less of a big ego.  The power differential between boss and employee was one of the reasons I saw Charles that way.

1 hour ago, slowpoked said:

It’s truly interesting how the characters can be significantly perceived differently. I equated Charles with Big because I felt that Charles always had the “unattainable” air to him, just like Big had. And while I wouldn’t equate Aiden with Josh, I’ve always thought Josh was the easy, safe choice for Liza, because like he said, he’s always been there for her, and truly, madly loved her.

Yes, I agree completely with this.  Charles and his suits, his establishment air gave more of a "Big" vibe, while Josh was the boy next door.  That's one way Josh was sort-of like Aiden in that he was less establishment and more boy next door than his rival.

The thing is I felt that the point of SATC was to show that Carrie wanted more than the boy next door who was the easy choice because he was always there for her.  She wanted someone that got her on a very deep level and for her that person was Big.  I thought it was clear that Liza didn't want anything different.  The direction the show was taking with Charles in previous seasons would have made him the choice that got her on her deepest level.  Meanwhile Josh was the sympathetic young guy that would do anything for her but really didn't get her down deep in her soul, and the generational difference contributed to that.  Unfortunately the show threw a wrench in Charles being the right choice by suddenly inserting that issue with his lack of trust in her.  That didn't seem to rear its head until this season, which to me says the show wanted to sabotage their relationship.  Which sucks.

While I was team Charles for most of the series I actually wouldn't have been unhappy with her ending up with Josh if more had been done to make that plausible in the show's final season.  Just leaving us with some vague "maybe" ending really isn't satisfying at all.  At least help the Charles fans realize that she belongs with Josh to help soften the blow.  Maybe they think that's implied by the ending but I doubt they consulted with any Charles fans to find out how we felt about it.  Instead the show seemed to want to slap us in the face.  Not nice.  I don't think that was intentional but that's how it would probably feel to most Charles shippers.

Plus I still held out hope that Diana would make an appearance in the final episode and the fact that she didn't and wasn't even mentioned makes me and probably everyone else feel robbed.  Leaving us with Liza running the company when clearly Diana should be in line for that position adds insult to injury.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I found it kind of annoying that after Liza's secret was out, they decided to use Charles and Maggie for the Old People Don't Know What Stuff Is representatives. This week it was Charles not knowing that House of Cards is now problematic and Maggie/Cass discussing Venmo. I get that older people aren't going to know about all the latest fads/newest technology, but they should at least make the examples more realistic. Lots of people in their 40s and 50s use venmo. Anyone with access to the internet knew about the huge Kevin Spacey scandal which caused the final season of House of Cards to be changed.

[BingeyKohan]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

This week it was Charles not knowing that House of Cards is now problematic and Maggie/Cass discussing Venmo. I get that older people aren't going to know about all the latest fads/newest technology, but they should at least make the examples more realistic. Lots of people in their 40s and 50s use venmo.

Their whole who’s paying for dinner thing was so dumb. Was it supposed to be cute? Cass made Maggie come all the way up to Harlem and had already established she was going to pay. Then she gives her way too little money, then indicates she will pay after all, then offers to venmo her even though she is paying. It wouldn’t be so maddening if it hadn’t taken up half their screen time together when they were supposed to be establishing smoking hot chemistry. 

[Aulty]

4 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Wishful thinking, but despite what Darren Starr said, the writing gave them reason to feel that way ...  So I really don't agree with Darren Starr that she ends up with neither of them when the writing is leaning toward Josh as the right choice for her.

Whenever writers or showrunners (have to) come out and explain how to interpret aspects of the story it just underlines that they've done a shit job writing or translating it to screen.

[MissLucas]

49 minutes ago, Aulty said:

Whenever writers or showrunners (have to) come out and explain how to interpret aspects of the story it just underlines that they've done a shit job writing or translating it to screen.

Exactly!!! I wish I could give you more hearts - here we go:  ❤️💜💙 💙💜❤️!!!

Edited June 11, 2021 by MissLucas

[thesupremediva1]

What an unnecessary amount of mealy-mouthing, both in the narrative of the show and in the press from Darren Starr. The man loves a triangle, and at the end of the day, the messier, less obvious portion usually wins out.

I cannot believe how much time was wasted on Charles and Liza, and we get 30 seconds of Josh and Liza at the end. If you're ending the series the way you started it, then guess what guys, it's OBVIOUS you are all Team Josh and that was her person all along. In principle, I agree with the ending. In execution? Why didn't we get more meaningful interactions between them? Nico is criminally underused.

Don't get me started on the lack of Diana. I'd rather have given her all of Kelsey's screen time. 

Anyway, as I've said a million times, you have to write to chemistry. And I think in the end the writers abandoned ship on Charles and Liza and gave in to what was right in front of them the whole time. Josh and Liza were obvious endgame when they used that Perishers song for their scene together the night before Josh's wedding. 

I just feel this ending was obvious the whole time and they took an insanely long, convoluted, uninteresting road to get there. 

[Yeah No]

42 minutes ago, thesupremediva1 said:

What an unnecessary amount of mealy-mouthing, both in the narrative of the show and in the press from Darren Starr. The man loves a triangle, and at the end of the day, the messier, less obvious portion usually wins out.

I cannot believe how much time was wasted on Charles and Liza, and we get 30 seconds of Josh and Liza at the end. If you're ending the series the way you started it, then guess what guys, it's OBVIOUS you are all Team Josh and that was her person all along. In principle, I agree with the ending. In execution? Why didn't we get more meaningful interactions between them? Nico is criminally underused.

I think he wanted Josh as her endgame, but was going out of his way not to piss off the Charles fans by only ending it with a nod and a wink toward Josh and not more "meaningful interactions".  Only that ended up pissing off both the Josh and the Charles fans.  He probably thought some weak anticlimactic nowhere ending was the better way to go but the way he did it only let everyone down.  I was a Charles fan but if he wanted Josh at least make a decent, final Josh ending.  If he wanted her alone, don't hint at her ending up with (or without) anyone.  Leave it open the way it was before.

[LuvMyShows]

 

 

11 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

Liza was a cooler head and had way better book instincts than Kelsey (a horrible businesswoman, I believe)  

The biggest unintentional laugh I ever got from the entire run of this show, was when Lauren said that Kelsey had BDE.  Not in a million years.  It really makes me wonder if the writers understood how the Kelsey character was actually perceived by the viewers.

8 hours ago, slowpoked said:

I actually wasn’t offended by that part of the deal because Rob is right - his contacts are valuable, and therefore he should get some value in exchange for them. It’s when he started saying that women are always asking for extra privileges is when I was, boy, bye.

OK, this may be an unpopular opinion, but as a woman, I didn't disagree with what he was saying.  I took what he was saying, to mean that women are looking for something that gives extra weight to the relationship/emotional...as in, a guy/buddy would understand that this particular aspect is business-related and is separate from our relationship...and sorry but I agree.  I think women have a much harder time separating those aspects out (I am not talking about the sports arena, where women can be fierce competitors against their BFFs).  I still remember an episode of The Apprentice when two guys really became best buddies (I believe it was season 1, with Troy and Kwame), and yet had to really go up against each other big time, and I thought at the time that it would be soooo much harder for women to retain their BFF status after that.

6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Unfortunately the show threw a wrench in Charles being the right choice by suddenly inserting that issue with his lack of trust in her.  That didn't seem to rear its head until this season, which to me says the show wanted to sabotage their relationship.  Which sucks.

And that's what bothers me the most.  If the trust from her initial lie really was such a big issue for Charles, then he never would have been able to progress in the relationship with Liza the way he did.  The fact that he did build the relationship so far, means that it wasn't actually a big deal for Charles, and is what makes this latest thing so frustrating...to say nothing of the fact that if it was such a big deal, the writers should have included it at some point during the seasons after the initial shock/anger wore off.

3 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

Cass made Maggie come all the way up to Harlem and had already established she was going to pay. Then she gives her way too little money, then indicates she will pay after all, then offers to venmo her even though she is paying. It wouldn’t be so maddening if it hadn’t taken up half their screen time together when they were supposed to be establishing smoking hot chemistry. 

Yeah, the scenes of the two of them were so starkly un-chemistry-ish, which just contributed more to the ridiculousness of Maggie declaring that she was in love.  Bish, please.  This is the woman who deliberately, maliciously, and deceptively set out to destroy not just Maggie's career, but her entire reputation as a person.  So, sure, forgive her just like that because she tried to make amends through that critic guy.  And yet the writers determined that Charles can't have a relationship because he suddenly can't trust Liza?!

[gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

Yeah, the scenes of the two of them were so starkly un-chemistry-ish, which just contributed more to the ridiculousness of Maggie declaring that she was in love.  Bish, please.  This is the woman who deliberately, maliciously, and deceptively set out to destroy not just Maggie's career, but her entire reputation as a person.  So, sure, forgive her just like that because she tried to make amends through that critic guy.  And yet the writers determined that Charles can't have a relationship because he suddenly can't trust Liza?!

This show was always pretty clear that Maggie's inner life, characteristics, and arc were a jokey afterthought, I'm not surprised it ended that way for her. The last season was Liza top tier, then Kelsey/Charles, then Maggie, and Lauren in Diana's old spot, and Josh dead last except to stick him in a 10-second moment with a question mark at the end. I'm not sure how much of it was availability. Josh was such a non-entity this season and it's been about 2 years since Liza even gave him a wistful glance, so that little button at the end felt totally obligatory and unearned as a romantic question mark but I do like that it reminded us that she still has her urban family, even without Charles or Kelsey. I used to be Team Josh but we've gotten so many years of being shown she's not into him that I'd long since dropped that and this didn't matter to me. Josh can do better than Liza, and Liza can do better than Charles. I think the Liza/Josh friendship matters so I'm glad that's maybe renewed a bit. 

[slowpoked]

9 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Unfortunately the show threw a wrench in Charles being the right choice by suddenly inserting that issue with his lack of trust in her.  That didn't seem to rear its head until this season, which to me says the show wanted to sabotage their relationship.  Which sucks.

 

2 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

And that's what bothers me the most.  If the trust from her initial lie really was such a big issue for Charles, then he never would have been able to progress in the relationship with Liza the way he did.  The fact that he did build the relationship so far, means that it wasn't actually a big deal for Charles, and is what makes this latest thing so frustrating...to say nothing of the fact that if it was such a big deal, the writers should have included it at some point during the seasons after the initial shock/anger wore off.

OMG both of these! It’s like the writers just decided to throw whatever on the wall to see what sticks! Their relationship went far enough that Charles PROPOSED to her and had a giant ass ring, DESPITE all the previous lies and deception from Liza. So obviously, he was able to get past the “trust” issues if he envisioned marriage with her. The one thing, supposedly, that threw a wrench in that plan, was that realizing all of a sudden they wanted different things - Charles wanted marriage, Liza didn’t. 
 

And of course, the writers needed THE big reconciliation, so they had Charles declaring that he didn’t want any of those traditional stuff like marriage, etc. He just wanted to be with Liza. So now with that out of the way, suddenly, the trust issues are now THE huge problem?! Did Charles suddenly forget who Liza is?!

Like @LuvMyShows mentioned above, I wouldn't have any problems with the trust issues ultimately being the final coffin in their relationship, because what Liza did was pretty shitty, but it just didn't feel earned. Just like the wink, wink to Josh at the end didn't feel earned as well. The writers truly did a shitty job this last season, and it's sad to see it done to a once great, fun series. With all of the actors vs. writers controversy that Kim's Convenience had, I wonder what Peter and Nick really felt about the writing of their characters this past season, because it didn't make any sense. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by slowpoked

[slowpoked]

8 hours ago, Yeah No said:

The thing is I felt that the point of SATC was to show that Carrie wanted more than the boy next door who was the easy choice because he was always there for her.  She wanted someone that got her on a very deep level and for her that person was Big.  I thought it was clear that Liza didn't want anything different.  The direction the show was taking with Charles in previous seasons would have made him the choice that got her on her deepest level.  Meanwhile Josh was the sympathetic young guy that would do anything for her but really didn't get her down deep in her soul, and the generational difference contributed to that. 

I just have to give a shout-out to this because this was really put eloquently. No simple guy was going to be good enough for Carrie because for some reason, only Big "got" her, at least according to Carrie's perspective. And yes, the earlier seasons wrote nicely that Charles understood and got her on a deeper level compared to Josh. But for some reason the writers decided to make Charles a truly horrible character this last season, and Josh, basically a non-entity. I truly wouldn't have minded seeing the triangle play out one last time had their dynamics been written as described above.

Edited June 11, 2021 by slowpoked

[Yeah No]

10 hours ago, slowpoked said:

I actually wasn’t offended by that part of the deal because Rob is right - his contacts are valuable, and therefore he should get some value in exchange for them. It’s when he started saying that women are always asking for extra privileges is when I was, boy, bye.

Whether or not Rob was right that he deserved some compensation doesn't forgive the underhanded way he went about doing this.  He may have deserved it, but I can't excuse him for going behind Kelsey and everyone's back, then suddenly springing a 20% "commission" on her after the fact.  I can't even call it a "deal" because he didn't make a deal with anyone before he went ahead and sent those emails/texts.  I can see her being mad about THAT, although he made it about her being a woman, which I don't know was the case.  She had reason enough to be furious that he would presume she would be OK about it without even asking her.

[Yeah No]

4 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

I just have to give a shout-out to this because this was really put eloquently. No simple guy was going to be good enough for Carrie because for some reason, only Big "got" her, at least according to Carrie's perspective. And yes, the earlier seasons wrote nicely that Charles understood and got her on a deeper level compared to Josh. But for some reason the writers decided to make Charles a truly horrible character this last season, and Josh, basically a non-entity. I truly wouldn't have minded seeing the triangle play out one last time had their dynamics been written as described above.

I think what you have put so well in your last two posts is the relative incongruence between the Charles of previous seasons and this one in terms of both his character and his feelings about Liza.  It's like he turned from a Jekyll into a Hyde.  Suddenly he didn't trust her when she outright lied for quite some time and he never had a problem with it.  Now suddenly we're supposed to believe this was an issue all along?  Ummm....no.

They could have made Liza's interactions with Josh this season bring her to a resolution that either he was or wasn't really for her in the end.  That would have made more sense than just keeping him on the sidelines.  And then the cliffhanger would have been which one she chooses.  The tension this season could have come from her internal indecision about which one she really loved, and in the end she would have come to that decision.  It would be like Carrie realizing that Petrovsky wasn't for her but Big was really still her true love, and Big coming to that same conclusion at the same time.  Big romantic ending.  We could have had that with one of these guys but instead we got this wimpy BS.

Plus you're right that it was like they threw everything against the wall to see what stuck.  This season was like watching a game of musical chairs and wherever they landed by the final episode was where it ended.  What a mess!

[BingeyKohan]

I reallly don't get why they made a point of showing Charles' daughter seeking out Liza for a sweet moment expressing relief she was back in their lives if the very next scene in that house would be Liza and Charles admitting it's over. Yes, the kids would have had a bit of a Liza to Quinn back to Liza then no one (even their father leaving for Yaddo) roller coaster even if they HADN'T shown the daughter scene - but that was just a bummer of a reminder of it, with no point at all since it's not like they established later it was a reason Liza would be ambivalent about closing the Charles chapter. It would have made sense if Liza and Charles stayed together but since they didn't all it does it sh*t on the children. 

[slowpoked]

31 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I think what you have put so well in your last two posts is the relative incongruence between the Charles of previous seasons and this one in terms of both his character and his feelings about Liza.

I’ve always thought that one of the sweetest moments in all of the series was when Charles and Liza were at a concert, and the band starts to play Take My Breath Away. At that point, Charles still doesn’t know about the real Liza, so he was a bit surprised when Liza knew the song.

It’s not just about knowing the song (and I’m not implying that Josh doesn’t know the song. He may very well also have), and that it was in the 80s, which would jive with both Charles and Liza knowing the song during that time. But it’s that connection that you mentioned above of being able to be on a different level than just surface level. It was actually the first time that I remember sort of rooting for Charles and Liza, seeing that they really fit with each other, even though I was Team Josh. 
 

53 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

Whether or not Rob was right that he deserved some compensation doesn't forgive the underhanded way he went about doing this.  He may have deserved it, but I can't excuse him for going behind Kelsey and everyone's back, then suddenly springing a 20% "commission" on her after the fact.  I can't even call it a "deal" because he didn't make a deal with anyone before he went ahead and sent those emails/texts.  I can see her being mad about THAT, although he made it about her being a woman, which I don't know was the case.  She had reason enough to be furious that he would presume she would be OK about it without even asking her.

 

True, true. The initial “deal” was only to see the valuation of the company. In real life, these terms would actually be agreed upon, upon lots of negotiations, meetings, and back and forth. But of course in the Younger world, this needed to be resolved before Kelsey gives her big speech.

51 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

 

 

[7-Zark-7]

I always preferred Josh for Liza, but damn they did Charles dirty this season. They just turned him into a sulky baby who had to be appeased by the women in his life at all times. The redemption at the end couldn't erase a whole season of neediness.

The season was hurt by the absence of Diana. The only spinoff I'm interested in seeing is one with Diana and Lauren and I don't care how it's done:  make them private eyes in Rekjavik, or in the witness protection program selling clunky jewelry in Tampa. For those two, I'm there.

[bluemoonstars]

18 hours ago, slowpoked said:

It’s truly interesting how the characters can be significantly perceived differently. I equated Charles with Big because I felt that Charles always had the “unattainable” air to him, just like Big had. And while I wouldn’t equate Aiden with Josh, I’ve always thought Josh was the easy, safe choice for Liza, because like he said, he’s always been there for her, and truly, madly loved her.

 

I actually wasn’t offended by that part of the deal because Rob is right - his contacts are valuable, and therefore he should get some value in exchange for them. It’s when he started saying that women are always asking for extra privileges is when I was, boy, bye.

For some reason, the show has always given a vibe that the tattoo shop was making a lot of money, and that Josh was one of the more popular artists in the city, so he was sought after. Also, he made a good deal when he licensed his artwork to Forever 21. Heck, it’s actually a good surprise to see Josh loaded. Usually, you would peg his generation as big spenders and not savers. Good for him for having a sound financial situation.

 

17 hours ago, Yeah No said:

 

Wow, that's interesting, I never saw Aiden as perfect for Carrie, in fact I felt the show often showed just how disappointing Aiden was to Carrie because he was so different from her and really didn't "get" her.  I just happened to catch the "Suffern" episode where Carrie goes with Aiden to his rustic upstate summer cabin where this point was driven home for me yet again.  And I didn't see him as all that forgiving either.  I think Josh's character was way more forgiving.  Aiden was more of a brooding, mistrusting type while Josh was always so light and easygoing.

I also never saw Charles as the "safe" or predictable choice.  He was more of the unattainable "Big" type, maybe with less of a big ego.  The power differential between boss and employee was one of the reasons I saw Charles that way.

Yes, I agree completely with this.  Charles and his suits, his establishment air gave more of a "Big" vibe, while Josh was the boy next door.  That's one way Josh was sort-of like Aiden in that he was less establishment and more boy next door than his rival.

The thing is I felt that the point of SATC was to show that Carrie wanted more than the boy next door who was the easy choice because he was always there for her.  She wanted someone that got her on a very deep level and for her that person was Big.  I thought it was clear that Liza didn't want anything different.  The direction the show was taking with Charles in previous seasons would have made him the choice that got her on her deepest level.  Meanwhile Josh was the sympathetic young guy that would do anything for her but really didn't get her down deep in her soul, and the generational difference contributed to that.  Unfortunately the show threw a wrench in Charles being the right choice by suddenly inserting that issue with his lack of trust in her.  That didn't seem to rear its head until this season, which to me says the show wanted to sabotage their relationship.  Which sucks.

While I was team Charles for most of the series I actually wouldn't have been unhappy with her ending up with Josh if more had been done to make that plausible in the show's final season.  Just leaving us with some vague "maybe" ending really isn't satisfying at all.  At least help the Charles fans realize that she belongs with Josh to help soften the blow.  Maybe they think that's implied by the ending but I doubt they consulted with any Charles fans to find out how we felt about it.  Instead the show seemed to want to slap us in the face.  Not nice.  I don't think that was intentional but that's how it would probably feel to most Charles shippers.

Plus I still held out hope that Diana would make an appearance in the final episode and the fact that she didn't and wasn't even mentioned makes me and probably everyone else feel robbed.  Leaving us with Liza running the company when clearly Diana should be in line for that position adds insult to injury.

I saw Aiden as perfect for her in the beginning (Season 3) in terms of the comfortable place they slipped into (eating Chinese food in bed, just spending time together). After their relationship ended the first time and they started dating again it was clear they wanted different things. Charles and Liza started out great just like Aiden and Carrie-Sea Glass carousel, Hemingway exhibit, conversations about the tragic childhoods of authors.. When they first got together (even before they officially dated) they were good and he seemed better for her than Josh but then they broke up and when they got back together it was clear they wanted different things. - Also like Aiden in season 4, Charles is a brooding, mistrusting type- he didn't trust that Liza truly loved him and wanted to be with him fully no matter how many times she told him that she and Josh were just friends sort of similar to how Aiden felt about Big at first (before that HILARIOUS fight at the cabin and bonding over Big's relationship problems) 

Also, I think the reason that Charles didn't trust her was because of that weird thing with Josh in season 6 when she refused to just tell him that she was still attracted to Josh but it didn't mean that she didn't love him. She just did strange things like flying to Chicago to talk about a picture (an overreaction because she felt guilty about her feelings) because phones suddenly didn't exist anymore lol. But I think him not trusting her because of the age lie is silly- it's literally just a white lie that she had to tell-it isn't a lie if they make you lie (ageism) 

Ultimately Liza and Carrie had somewhat similar stances- Charles didn't trust Liza (he proposed because he wanted to be sure she loved him- it wasn't motivated by love as it was by mistrust), Liza didn't want a traditional marriage that Charles was proposing because she simply wasn't that person anymore. Similarly Carrie and Aiden ended their engagement and relationship because Aiden couldn't trust Carrie after she cheated on him, and Carrie didn't want the same type of commitment that Aiden was proposing similar to the commitment Charles proposed to Liza (that Liza also rejected)- That's why I think Charles was always Aiden- perfect on paper, wants a traditional commitment but it just doesn't fit, the trust isn't there. 

As far as Josh being a Big type, I'm a bit weary about that honestly but some of the connections I saw were that Josh came first just like Big did, Josh was the guy she seemed to have a habit of cheating with (Josh cheating on Greta, and Clare with Liza- although Liza emotionally cheated on Josh with Charles so there's that), the guy that doesn't seem like the best choice for her at all- just like Big objectively wasn't the best choice for Carrie, and apparently now Josh is loaded with enough money to buy a building on Metropolitan ave in Williamsburg right near Nitehawk (love it but it's kind of expensive for a broke Gen Zer like myself lol) which can easily go upwards of 2 million(and I'm rounding down) so he now has money like Big but Charles has money too- which is why I murky on Josh as a Big type 100%. 

[bluemoonstars]

8 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I think what you have put so well in your last two posts is the relative incongruence between the Charles of previous seasons and this one in terms of both his character and his feelings about Liza.  It's like he turned from a Jekyll into a Hyde.  Suddenly he didn't trust her when she outright lied for quite some time and he never had a problem with it.  Now suddenly we're supposed to believe this was an issue all along?  Ummm....no.

They could have made Liza's interactions with Josh this season bring her to a resolution that either he was or wasn't really for her in the end.  That would have made more sense than just keeping him on the sidelines.  And then the cliffhanger would have been which one she chooses.  The tension this season could have come from her internal indecision about which one she really loved, and in the end she would have come to that decision.  It would be like Carrie realizing that Petrovsky wasn't for her but Big was really still her true love, and Big coming to that same conclusion at the same time.  Big romantic ending.  We could have had that with one of these guys but instead we got this wimpy BS.

Plus you're right that it was like they threw everything against the wall to see what stuck.  This season was like watching a game of musical chairs and wherever they landed by the final episode was where it ended.  What a mess!

I agree that Charles was not the same character we were introduced to early on. When it comes to his mistrust I feel like it would have been more believable if Charles didn't trust her because she was clearly still attracted to Josh and lying about it in Season 6. I think if he didn't trust her because of that and the overreactions she had to basic interactions with Josh which showed she had feelings that weren't fully platonic- flying to Chicago, saying she won't be friends with him anymore (if that were her choice I'd support it , and I didn't like Josh mansplaining her feelings, that was really screwed up). If he had trust issues based on that then I would totally be behind his mistrust of her. But not trusting her because she shaved 14 years off her age because she had to in order to find a job..... yeah no 

Edited June 12, 2021 by bluemoonstars

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 hours ago, bluemoonstars said:

But not trusting her because she shaved 14 years off her age because she had to in order to find a job..... yeah no 

It wasn't just that she lied about her age. It was all the additional lying that came with it. In a post above, someone mentioned Charles being surprised that Liza knew "Take My Breath Away." There were several instances like that before he found out her real age and she always had to come up with some lie about why she knew something that was assumed would be unfamiliar to someone Kelsey's age.

[bluemoonstars]

Just now, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It wasn't just that she lied about her age. It was all the additional lying that came with it. In a post above, someone mentioned Charles being surprised that Liza knew "Take My Breath Away." There were several instances like that before he found out her real age and she always had to come up with some lie about why she knew something that was assumed would be unfamiliar to someone Kelsey's age.

I agree that it spiraled but maybe it's just me I just don't think her lie was that serious in terms of trust. She lied about her age because she had to in order to find work. I can understand where she's coming from, and Charles didn't seem to be too disturbed by it until recently. I think it would have been more believable if he were upset about her indecision in terms of Josh not a white lie she told about her age (which I still think isn't too bad because it's not a lie if they make you lie). 

[violet and green]

I finally came round to Charles for Liza this season, midway through, and now it's all off?!! Hasn't anyone heard of talking things through? And Josh, wearing a schlumpy beanie all season, gets the last semi-romantic scene for thirty seconds at the end? It was like the writers' room took bad acid and some cough medicine and threw 1001 ideas - most involving unnecessary sex acts, or tmi commentary on, like they'd swallowed the entire Sex and the City back catalogue and vomited it into a wind machine and stitched those moments loosely into the "plot" - at a story board and said, Yeah, that works. Plus no return of Diana, sob. She was impeccable in her zoom call though.

I had a hard time getting past the bad makeup, hair, and I have to assume lighting didn't help as pretty well everyone looked uniformly horrible in their bad hair and makeup in almost every scene for the entire twelve eps, though ep one foundation was astonishingly caked on. Once I managed to accept that was just the way it was in these Covid times, and got into their story, and had to deal with boring Quinn sucking up so much screen time, then all that romantic hope for Liza and Charles was for...nothing. What an anticlimactic ending to a series that used to be so addictive to watch and such intense fun. 

[tennisgurl]

Honestly the most unbelievable part of the finale for me was that anyone cared enough about a publishing employee who fudged her age to put her in their goofy fraud play alongside the likes of Billy McFarland. Who could possibly care that much outside the industry? The industry didn’t even ending up caring that much. Is Liza so infamous to be “worse” then any of those people?