S15.E20: Carry On (Series Finale)

[gonzosgirrl]

Dean reminds Sam of when he came to get him from Stanford, and the thing that immediately comes to his mind is the woman in white case. Sorry, Jessica. 

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dean reminds Sam of when he came to get him from Stanford, and the thing that immediately comes to his mind is the woman in white case. Sorry, Jessica. 

LOLOLOL!

[Res]

6 hours ago, Myrelle said:

This for me too. 

It's a large part of why I can only see Dean as the most tragic fictional hero/character that I've ever encountered.

He will always be the greatest hero I've ever encountered-Dabb could never take that away from Dean for me but only because Jensen Ackles portrayed him-but the dysfunctional attachment these brothers had in life and now even death will never be beautiful or romanticized in any way to me.

No. To me, it will always only be one of the saddest things I've ever encountered in a fictional work-and especially moreso for Dean, as has been usual for me to feel for as long as I've been watching the show, all 15 years.

I'm still not over this finale for Dean and likely never will be-unless Jensen someday fixes it because I'm not sure that I could ever trust anyone else to even make the attempt, at this point. 

ITA. I wouldn't have stayed a view this long without JA's portrayal of Dean. He's what made the show for me and in the end (last 5 seasons) he was all that I watched for.

I also hope that JA can redo this somehow a little later one. He's the only one I trust as well, at least in regards to Dean.

[Goldmoon]

If JA ever wants to take control of the narrative he will run into a major roadblock:  JP.  JP loved the ending and to reset it as a mini-series starring both of them he would need JP to come aboard.  I don't want Jensen to ever consider coming back as Dean unless he has full control of the story line, script approval and can choose his show runner, directors and writers.  I would also like him to stay away from SPN cons.  Is that too much to ask?  Let the boy move on.

[Lemuria]

As unhappy as I am with this finale as a Dean fan, I wouldn't be all that happy if Sam were my favorite.  Not just the death scene--where Sam was written as taking everything his dying brother was trying to give him but not giving even a single sentence of comfort back--but also with his life.

Yes, Sam was given the years that Dean was denied but what did he do with them?  A family (perhaps, since the mysterious woman was recently described as "partner/co-parent" and not wife, so maybe temporary) and what else?  What else did he do with all those years?  What did he achieve (not that raising a child is not an achievement but you know what I mean.  It certainly wasn't the achievement that the supposed smartest, most accomplished Winchester would be expected to have), as far as what many of his fans have said over the years.  What's more, he never had the strength to truly let Dean go, and it seemed to cripple him. 

While Dean never got to live a free will life and whatever you might think about the fight, Dean still died a hero, fighting to save children.  Sam died old, worn out, possibly ill.

Dean did not live long enough.  Sam lived too long.

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Lemuria

[Binns]

34 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

As unhappy as I am with this finale as a Dean fan, I wouldn't be all that happy if Sam were my favorite.  Not just the death scene--where Sam was written as taking everything his dying brother was trying to give him but not giving even a single sentence of comfort back--but also with his life.

Yes, Sam was given the years that Dean was denied but what did he do with them?  A family (perhaps, since the mysterious woman was recently described as "partner/co-parent" and not wife, so maybe temporary) and what else?  What else did he do with all those years?  What did he achieve (not that raising a child is not an achievement but you know what I mean.  It certainly wasn't the achievement that the supposed smartest, most accomplished Winchester would be expected to have), as far as what many of his fans have said over the years.  What's more, he never had the strength to truly let Dean go, and it seemed to cripple him. 

While Dean never got to live a free will life and whatever you might think about the fight, Dean still died a hero, fighting to save children.  Sam died old, worn out, possibly ill.

Dean did not live long enough.  Sam lived too long.

 

I’m glad others see this too. I think there are quite a few people who think Sam got this amazing, fulfilled, joyous ending and to me it was not so. I think he found joy in moments and had times of happiness but my overall feeling was one of waiting...biding his time. I think the pain of losing Dean was fresh every day. My hope for them (because they were both so damaged) was that if they died it would be at the same time. 

[Katy M]

3 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

Add to that how Sam left the bunker. They had an existing network of hunters, they had all the AU people (whom we dont even know if theyre just back, or if they got to go home..?)

All the hunters that hung out with them in in the bunker were killed by Lucifer in Ouroboros.

Maybe he called Garth and told him where the key (the totally unnecessary key) was.

[PAForrest]

10 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Yes, Sam was given the years that Dean was denied but what did he do with them?  A family (perhaps, since the mysterious woman was recently described as "partner/co-parent" and not wife, so maybe temporary) and what else?  What else did he do with all those years?  What did he achieve (not that raising a child is not an achievement but you know what I mean.  It certainly wasn't the achievement that the supposed smartest, most accomplished Winchester would be expected to have), as far as what many of his fans have said over the years.  What's more, he never had the strength to truly let Dean go, and it seemed to cripple him. 

While Dean never got to live a free will life and whatever you might think about the fight, Dean still died a hero, fighting to save children.  Sam died old, worn out, possibly ill.

Dean did not live long enough.  Sam lived too long.

Wow, that line really sums up their lives perfectly, especially given this sad sack tragic ending script. They really should have just died together. I don't doubt Jensen would have been far more content with that ending than the crap solo death Drabb gave him. The guys often said the brothers should go out together - Drabb just didn't want to give them the ending that made the most sense for their characters because ... lack of vision, no understanding of the series after all these years, spite? Take your pick.

I agree with everything you said about Sam's "life", much as it was. And I assumed Sam was dying of cancer at the end.

[Lemuria]

I would say that it was ironic (but that might be giving Dabb too much credit) that the title of the finale is "Carry On," when Dabb made sure that no one could or did. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Lemuria

[gonzosgirrl]

If I gave any sort of credit for thoughtfulness to Badd, I could stretch it to say that Dean dying first was part of the reset of natural order since he was the first to be saved by supernatural means (Faith). I know Sam was as well, via Dean's deal, but that could be explained as part of the butterfly effect: if Dean had died in Faith, he wouldn't have been around to deal for Sam.

I can't see sending the AU people back - their world was a trash fire. Unless Gack restored everything, everywhere to the way it was before Chuck got petulant (and we have no idea how long the war in the AU had been going on), then sending them back when they had a reasonably good life in our universe would be cruel.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I can't see sending the AU people back - their world was a trash fire. Unless Gack restored everything, everywhere to the way it was before Chuck got petulant (and we have no idea how long the war in the AU had been going on), then sending them back when they had a reasonably good life in our universe would be cruel.

When they came over, they all said they wanted to go back and finish what they started.  I can't really give two tinkerbells (I'm trying to get a new expression started, pass it on), about any of the AUs.

[ahrtee]

15 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

If JA ever wants to take control of the narrative he will run into a major roadblock:  JP.  JP loved the ending and to reset it as a mini-series starring both of them he would need JP to come aboard.  I don't want Jensen to ever consider coming back as Dean unless he has full control of the story line, script approval and can choose his show runner, directors and writers.  I would also like him to stay away from SPN cons.  Is that too much to ask?  Let the boy move on.

Of course, any reboot/redo will depend on how well Walker does; and considering the CW usually gives all shows a couple of years at least, I think it'll be a while down the road.

But I'm not sure if Jared would stand in the way of the narrative.  I'm not convinced he actually *loved* the ending so much as Sam's role in it.  He's always loved episodes that give him a chance to showcase his character and stretch his acting muscles, and, aside from the 5 minutes or so of Dean's death scene, the rest of it was pretty much Sam--from looking fondly at Dean eating pie to cooking to the long emotional beats of losing Dean and coming to grips with that.  So, going with the idea that Sam gets such major emotional scenes, has a son named Dean and lives a long, normal life as the focus of the episode, I can see Jared being happy with that.  And I can also see him fine with pushing that to the background (it can still happen, just at some future time) and continuing on in more stories.  

OTOH, I wonder if he really was happy with those wigs.  To me, those were on the same level of horrible as the marionette fight (both directed by Singer, BTW.)  Maybe that was *his* mildly passive-aggressive way of getting even with both boys.  

[Bobcatkitten]

My only hope for a reboot is maybe five years down the road. And they could easily put it between defeating God and Dean's death. They left the timing ambiguous. Was it a few days, months, years?

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Bobcatkitten said:

My only hope for a reboot is maybe five years down the road. And they could easily put it between defeating God and Dean's death. They left the timing ambiguous. Was it a few days, months, years?

I believe the party line is a a couple to a few weeks. The problem with a five year wait with respect to doing anything pre-finale, is that they guys (yes, even Jensen, lol) are going to age.

But they could very easily have had Dean survive the spike (revived in the ambulance Sam finally called) or been in a coma for a while. Either way they could explain the time jump in a couple words. "Hey Dean, remember that time you almost died on the vamp hunt? Good thing the hospital was close by." And all the heaven stuff, and seeing Sam's future was just Dean 'going into the light' while almost dying.

[ukgirl71]

The disappointment and bitterness I feel about this ep also makes me think I’ll never be able to go to another con, as I’d be chased out of town by all the unquestioning fans who loved it if I dared open my mouth.  I need a reboot/repair someday.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Of course, any reboot/redo will depend on how well Walker does; and considering the CW usually gives all shows a couple of years at least, I think it'll be a while down the road.

But I'm not sure if Jared would stand in the way of the narrative.  I'm not convinced he actually *loved* the ending so much as Sam's role in it.  He's always loved episodes that give him a chance to showcase his character and stretch his acting muscles, and, aside from the 5 minutes or so of Dean's death scene, the rest of it was pretty much Sam--from looking fondly at Dean eating pie to cooking to the long emotional beats of losing Dean and coming to grips with that.  So, going with the idea that Sam gets such major emotional scenes, has a son named Dean and lives a long, normal life as the focus of the episode, I can see Jared being happy with that.  And I can also see him fine with pushing that to the background (it can still happen, just at some future time) and continuing on in more stories.  

OTOH, I wonder if he really was happy with those wigs.  To me, those were on the same level of horrible as the marionette fight (both directed by Singer, BTW.)  Maybe that was *his* mildly passive-aggressive way of getting even with both boys.  

Any re-do would also have to wait for Jensen to have time to do it and I feel like that's going to be the greatest hindrance-unless he makes it a priority which I feel is doubtful since he flat-out stated soon after the last season was announced that he's looking forward to taking on other roles.

The only reasons that I can see for him to have even brought up the idea of an added limited series this early on is two-fold-1) he knew that the fandom would be reeling(andnot all in a good way) from this ending and 2)because he feared that it might be seen in the same light as the endings to shows such as GOT or Dexter or How I Met Your Mother.

I am curious to see if he will bring it up again in his first post-finale public appearance.

I didn't watch any of JP's  virtual con appearance,  but I did hear that he said he would for sure be working with Jensen again-or some such thing that indicated a great degree of surety in that.

[Bobcatkitten]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I believe the party line is a a couple to a few weeks. The problem with a five year wait with respect to doing anything pre-finale, is that they guys (yes, even Jensen, lol) are going to age.

I mean JP will age but not Jensen 🙂

 

[tessathereaper]

12 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

Add to that how Sam left the bunker. They had an existing network of hunters, they had all the AU people (whom we dont even know if theyre just back, or if they got to go home..?), even if you wanted to see Sam get out rather than become Chief-Sam - and even if COVID stopped them having a real funeral/handover - Why wasn't there at least a prop-facilitated implication that he was handing it off?

There was no need to leave it in the dark to gather dust and be forgotten. How depressing.

Apart from Dean Jr, there was no optiistic reflection on these guys legacy whatsoever 😞

You know I am probably unnecessarily mad that there is a "Dean Jr".  All I can think is that this was Dabb's way of trying to diminish Jensen's legacy, because there is another potential "Dean Winchester" for future spin offs.  I know Sam's naming his son in honor of his brother, a loving gesture, etc but there being another Dean Winchester in the SPN universe just annoys me, esp when the REAL Dean Winchester had his life cut so unfairly and ingloriously short.

[gonzosgirrl]

Technically (I think) Sam's son is not Dean Jr, he would be Dean Winchester II (the second), since he is a namesake. Only Dean's son could be Dean Jr.

[tessathereaper]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Technically (I think) Sam's son is not Dean Jr, he would be Dean Winchester II (the second), since he is a namesake. Only Dean's son could be Dean Jr.

Yes I know that, I pointed it out to someone else myself but seeing as that is what the person used I figured I'd just use to save time.  Dean Winchester II, Dean Winchester Jr, I don't really care. :)  I just don't like there being another Dean Winchester, given how all this went down.

 

[Castiels Cat]

On 11/23/2020 at 3:24 PM, ahrtee said:

It took me a while to process the episode beyond my first impressions (I had other things on my mind this weekend).

The conclusion I came to was what bothered me the most wasn't just the pointlessness of Dean's death, or the idiocy of the actual hunt, which literally made no sense, or whether or not it was (or was supposed to be) a "happy ending."   All that's been covered very thoroughly and in very-well-thought out posts by others above.    

It's that it was bad writing, period.  You'd think for the finale of 15 years of devoted fans, solid characters, and (mostly) good stories that the ending would go out strong, not peter out into nothing.  And it has nothing to do with the actual endings for the characters, but more with *how* the show was written.

It's the pacing.  I had no real problem with Dean's death scene.  I had no real problem with the ideas behind the story:  they went on a hunt, Dean was mortally wounded, his last thoughts were to comfort his brother and tell him to "carry on," and then they meet again in heaven.  That's as basic as you can get.  

But when you've got the heart-wringing scene of one of the two leads getting killed, whether pointlessly or being the BDH, you play it up.  You don't stick it in the middle of the episode as an side note and then go on without him for another half hour.  

Death scenes of a main character are the big climactic moments of any show.  That's why they're traditionally at the end, even if there's a coda showing "life goes on."  Every other time any major character has died--from John or Bobby to Kevin or Charlie or Rowena (aside from Mystery Spot, anyway), it's been as the climax, even if someone gets to mourn or soliloquize for a few minutes or they show the hunter's funeral.   

To make the violent, wrenching and unexpected death just another plot device in passing, and give the final end scene to dying peacefully in bed is *not* the way to grab an audience and make them remember the show.  

I'll assume there was supposed to be more with Dean after his death scene--more people greeting him in heaven, showing him at peace, at least.  But they had, what, 4 months to rewrite during the lockdown?

They should have fixed the pacing.  Given more attention to the pre-story.  Let the viewers find out what they were planning to do.  We could even see hints if Dean was getting bored or Sam was looking into schools, to make the ending either more poignant or more organic.  

Move Dean's death scene to the last quarter hour, and play up the drama.  Give Sam some final words to his brother.  And then they could cut all the long-drawn-out Poor Sam scenes into one short montage:  maybe showing him getting older incrementally.  Showing him hunting or hanging out with friends.  Or not settling down.  Think the opening montage of Exile on Main Street.  It could have been done much more effectively, and in a lot less time.   They could even intercut Sam's growing older with Dean in heaven, doing things that he enjoyed, even if they couldn't get all the people to greet him.  And then the final scene would be the same.

Different focus.  Different impact.  That's Writing 101, and our writers have failed even that.  And that's left a bad taste in my mouth for the whole show. 

Dabb is a bad writer. He doesn't care enough about Dean to try.

[Bergamot]

14 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Technically (I think) Sam's son is not Dean Jr, he would be Dean Winchester II (the second), since he is a namesake. Only Dean's son could be Dean Jr.

Personally I don't think that Sam ever really used the name Dean in speaking to or referring to his son; the name was just a way of honoring Dean. In my personal canon, Dean II had a nickname that he always went by instead. That's how it was in my family, when a person was named after an older relative, in order to prevent confusion. In this case, even though the original Dean was no longer around, I do not see Sam thinking of or speaking to someone new by the name Dean, as if he were a replacement for his brother.

Even though we only saw him for a moment as an adult, I didn't have a problem with Sam's son. I thought the actor was a nice-looking young man, and he even sort of vaguely resembled Sam. And I kind of like the idea of Sam sharing stories with him about his brother, and Dean II growing up wishing that he could have known his uncle.

I don't understand however why Sam's son had to be literally the only person in the universe that Sam had any contact with after Dean died. I mean, I understand COVID restrictions, but not having crowd scenes didn't necessarily mean that Sam must exist in a world that consisted of only him and one other person for the rest of his life. But I don't know, maybe that was supposed to symbolically show how the rest of Sam's life felt for him after he lost Dean. It's almost like the only reason Sam's son was there, was so that he could hold Sam's hand as he was dying and tell him it was okay to go. I guess it wouldn't have worked if all Sam had was Miracle and he had to die holding his paw. 🙂

Edited November 25, 2020 by Bergamot

[ahrtee]

17 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

You know I am probably unnecessarily mad that there is a "Dean Jr".  All I can think is that this was Dabb's way of trying to diminish Jensen's legacy, because there is another potential "Dean Winchester" for future spin offs.  I know Sam's naming his son in honor of his brother, a loving gesture, etc but there being another Dean Winchester in the SPN universe just annoys me, esp when the REAL Dean Winchester had his life cut so unfairly and ingloriously short.

Well, if the network is seriously considering yet another spinoff like "SPN: the next generation" then I think Dabb would get creator credit for having thought up Dean II, even if he's not involved in the show further.  And we know that the CW wants a continuing connection with the Winchesters (plus, yes, Dabb can then replace "our" Dean with his for future generations.) *sigh*

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Well, if the network is seriously considering yet another spinoff like "SPN: the next generation" then I think Dabb would get creator credit for having thought up Dean II, even if he's not involved in the show further.  And we know that the CW wants a continuing connection with the Winchesters (plus, yes, Dabb can then replace "our" Dean with his for future generations.) *sigh*

I don't know if I can legally be held responsible for my actions if that happened. Temporary insanity and all.

[Myrelle]

54 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Well, if the network is seriously considering yet another spinoff like "SPN: the next generation" then I think Dabb would get creator credit for having thought up Dean II, even if he's not involved in the show further.  And we know that the CW wants a continuing connection with the Winchesters (plus, yes, Dabb can then replace "our" Dean with his for future generations.) *sigh*

 

43 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't know if I can legally be held responsible for my actions if that happened. Temporary insanity and all.

Heh.

Rotsa ruck to anyone who would even  contemplate trying to fill those shoes. 

[Aeryn13]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Well, if the network is seriously considering yet another spinoff like "SPN: the next generation" then I think Dabb would get creator credit for having thought up Dean II, even if he's not involved in the show further.  And we know that the CW wants a continuing connection with the Winchesters (plus, yes, Dabb can then replace "our" Dean with his for future generations.) *sigh*

Yuck. 

Though I can't see the network go there. I believe when Pedowitz says "connected to the Winchesters", he means "having them, the original ones in it". He knows the show was due to the actors aka a non-replaceable factor.

IF they went there, I swear Dean would suddenly get a daughter who is then also grown up.

When the TV show Grimm ended, ir had a little flash forward to the grown up kids and yet the potential spin-off idea was never focusing on them.

[Aeryn13]

3 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

I definitely don't think they'd go there without Jared as a very involved father figure. The question is whether they'd be stupid enough to go there with Only Jared.

...unless they wait enough years for the next generation of audience who don't even know who the winchesters are 😞 

At that point, I don`t think there would be any spin-off appeal anymore in the first place. The point of doing a spin-off is hopefully picking up the audience of the mothership. Which would be the case for the CW. If that many years pass, they`d do a full-on reboot instead.

[Pondlass1]

I’ve always liked that the Js played their own ages on Supernatural. The most ridiculous part of Vampire Diaries was 20-somethings portraying high school students and then, of course, vampires don’t age but actors do Duh! Don’t play a vampire unless you really are one!
 

But TPTB messed up Dean and Sam’s backstory ages all the time. 12 year old Sam playing with a toy plane for instance. And in this  final episode makeup up went a bit overboard with ageing Sam so that he looked about ninety on his deathbed, yet SonDean was what? 23-24? And Dean and Bobby arrived upstairs at death age .. but Sammy arrived looking the age he was when Dean died. The poor dog didn’t even make it. I’m not religious but if there’s a heaven I want my pets there with me. And beer in bottles works differently in heaven too judging by the levels in Bobby’s beer bottle, half full, full, half full again. ... 🤪

We all knew it would be Dean that died. But not on a flipping prong!. A wild&crazy swashbuckling hero dying on a prong in a barn after a routine skirmish with a bunch of humdrum vampires. 🙄 And half way through the FINAL episode! Not the end! Half way through!
 

I know COVID got in the way, but the final five episodes should’ve been building to a thrilling suspenseful climactic climax worthy of the series, the actors, all cast and crew.
 

The biggest missed opportunity in television history.  It’s more than frustrating, it’s a flipping crime.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

I keep wondering if Dean's death was supposed to be a reset of the natural order. I mentioned this the other day, but his was the first death averted by supernatural means in Faith. It occurred to me just now that that 'death' was also the result of an unhappy accident/coincidence at the end of a hunt where the kids were already saved. A rebar hook this time, a puddle of water the first time.

[Binns]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I keep wondering if Dean's death was supposed to be a reset of the natural order. I mentioned this the other day, but his was the first death averted by supernatural means in Faith. It occurred to me just now that that 'death' was also the result of an unhappy accident/coincidence at the end of a hunt where the kids were already saved. A rebar hook this time, a puddle of water the first time.

Oooh, what a great catch!

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I keep wondering if Dean's death was supposed to be a reset of the natural order. I mentioned this the other day, but his was the first death averted by supernatural means in Faith. It occurred to me just now that that 'death' was also the result of an unhappy accident/coincidence at the end of a hunt where the kids were already saved. A rebar hook this time, a puddle of water the first time.

Maybe but it's still bad storytelling, because well no matter how you look at it the world, the characters moved on in those 15 years, you don't just resent it back to the past.  Not good storytelling.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Maybe but it's still bad storytelling, because well no matter how you look at it the world, the characters moved on in those 15 years, you don't just resent it back to the past.  Not good storytelling.

I don't believe it was their intention because I don't believe Badd put that much thought into anything. I just think it's an interesting observation.

[Binns]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't believe it was their intention because I don't believe Badd put that much thought into anything. I just think it's an interesting observation.

He did manage to stick other call backs to early seasons in there, like Dean dying the way Sam died the first time. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, Binns said:

He did manage to stick other call backs to early seasons in there, like Dean dying the way Sam died the first time. 

Yeah, there were some obvious call backs - and some of them instigated by Jared - but I think the idea that he died under the same kind of circumstance is too subtle for Badd.

[Res]

56 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yeah, there were some obvious call backs - and some of them instigated by Jared - but I think the idea that he died under the same kind of circumstance is too subtle for Badd.

It reminded me of  Final Destination. Soon as the plot armor was gone, Dean died in a "stupid" way because he should have already been dead. Of course that doesn't explain Sam living a  long life.

[SueB]

Finally had my full second watch (I watched the barn scene a bunch). I wanted proper time to 'savor' the series finale.  I always pick up more.  Look, if you despised the finale... move along... these are not the droids you're looking for.  It's not a gushfest but I hold no bitterness so... you've been warned.  But this post IS going to be long-winded.  So strap in, skim or skip.  There will be a Bottom Line for the TL;DR. 

This finale was not a 'once and done' for me.  And I can see why Jensen took some time but then was totally on board.  My first reaction was generally "okay, the concept hits all the beats" but I didn't like some choices.  So, I took a few days to think it over.  I listened to some stuff (cast interviews, the panel bits, etc..) and while I'm not sure any ending would have been "perfect", this was was 'pretty damned good' IMO.  

Let me start with some elements that affected my POV:

1) 'A big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff'

• After my initial watch, THIS was the issue I struggled the most with.  HOW MUCH TIME HAS PASSED?  I just could not abide with the notion that their first hunt post Chuck-deposing was where Dean died.  The good new is. it wasn't. 
• When I looked objectively at the scene that started with Dean's alarm at 8am until his death --- I couldn't find ANY spare time.  All in-show evidence suggests that on that SAME day, including laundry day and gun cleaning activities, THAT was the day the Dean found the pie-fest in Akron.  The family who were attacked were AT the pie-fest.  They picked up the case while there and that's where Dean died.  The end. This is where my initial reaction came from.  But it didn't 'feel' right.  It would imply they were only awesome at hunting because Chuck spared them.  I can't accept that.  I watched those 15 years.  It wasn't all luck.  And that last fight was pretty par.  These two humans were taking on 4 big vamps and generally DID beat them.  The 'hook' being on the post was luck for the big vamp but really, it wasn't skill on the vamp's part.   
• It wasn't until the application on Dean's desk was brought up that I found the 'thread' (like Bobby in his original Heaven) that was just OUT OF PLACE.  See, I was looking for time AFTER the alarm clock.  The time that had passed was after 'THEN' but before 'NOW'. Second viewing made it really clear.  Evidence: the 'normal routine' was not what you do when you have just been through a trauma.  We MISSED the post-apocalypse trauma.  They were both far too 'normal' for it to have been recent.  Sam stopped on his run, just to enjoy the view.  Dean was (apparently) considering a job (maybe part-time?).  In 15.19 Sam found Dean sleeping with booze.  Even if Dean was super well adjusted, he doesn't go from that to happily greeting Miracle in the morning in just a few days.  Dean so even keel when Sam mentions he misses Cas & Jack (because they were having a happy time moment)?  Nah.  The wounds had healed over a bit before that conversation. So.. yes, TIME had passed. 
• And I wonder if the hunts were slowing down a bit.  At the end of at the end of S1, Bobby remarked at how Demon possession was a 3 or 4 times a year thing and he knew of 27 at that point in the year.  I'll save the rest of that for "Speculation Land" (see below).   So, HOW MUCH TIME?  I'm going to say 'enough'.  Enough that they had been on routine hunts that the guns were being kept up.  Enough that they had come to grips with living the life Cas sacrificed for them.  Enough that Sam being in charge of breakfast and new when to start the toast was able to be calculated.  Finally, enough that any taint of Chuck being somehow more responsible for their existence than we already knew is not something I believe we were told.  Sure, Chuck saved them (or nudged the Pastor's choice) in Faith.  And between deals and direct intervention, past deaths didn't stick.  But they WERE the hunters we thought they were and this episode did not screw that up IMO.  THAT is what I needed.  
• Heaven was a REAL wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey thing.  Fast or slow, it seems, DEFINITELY not linear.

2) Real-world global pandemic

• It was hard NOT to see the impact of COVID on the finale.  Dean's heaven starts at Harvelle's for pity's sake.  It should have been crowded.  I would have liked to have seen all the old characters but it's not a deal breaker for me.
• Fuzzy Sam wife.  Debate-able if this was always the plan or COVID driven.  When watching the episode, the existence of COVID allowed me to personally 'fill in the blank'.  Works for me.
• No Cas. I don't think Cas was EVER coming back, the last episode was ALWAYS going to be Sam & Dean focused.  So, while some have speculated this impact, it's not something I see as a 'thing'.  
• No one at Dean's funeral.  Again, I think this was ALWAYS going to be solo.  This was a Sam & Dean moment.  And Sam was no where near ready to open up a vein for well-intentioned friends to share.  

3) Intentional "Open to Interpretation"

• After 15.18, I could see 'the man behind the curtain' (i.e. the writers), making sure we could 'Goosebumps' this puppy for a long time to come.  Cas' speech in 15.18 may be crystal clear to some, but I think the ambiguity thing was intentional.  And knowing that, I could see the 'open to interpretation' machinery even on FIRST viewing.
• Who is Sam's 'partner'?  I assumed "wife" but they intentionally fuzzed that one.
• Did Sam give up hunting?  The arm tattoo on Dean Jr suggests he held no secrets from his family but no clue about actual hunting.
• Is the MOL bunker gathering dust?  Don't know.  Sam wasn't living there but who is to say whether or not he called up someone to take over caretaking the library (AUCharlie?)
• What does "the Heaven Dean deserves" mean?  "All the walls were down".  But there are real practical issues to how that would actually work because ... free will and all.  So... that's a big old pile of Mystery Soup.  I think they left up the speculation to the fanfic writers and vagued that up a bit on purpose -- because there IS no clear answer on how to make it 'perfect'.  So they left it vague.  

 

... and NOW onto actual EPISODE THOUGHTS

1) This was Dean's happy ending

• Seriously, his 'happy ever after' was Sam dying old; "You, with a wife and kids and -- and -- and grandkids, living till you're fat and bald and chugging Viagra -- that is my perfect ending, (S8.14)  Dean didn't see that Sam would be forever 'wounded' in his happy ending, but Dean wanted his Sammy to live til old age.  As I've often said, Dean was more like a father to Sam.  The ONLY way Dean has a happy ending is if he dies first.  Anything else would have been too cruel.  And Sam KNEW it.
• He expected to die hunting - but it's normal to not be 'READY' when it actually happens.  All their lives they died or prepared for death.  This one, being the final one, coming out of the blue saved him from the angst we've seen before when they knew death was near.
• Dean was ready for the natural order to continue on.  No deals, no appeals.  He fought damn hard to stop Supernatural influence effecting the world.  And he was at peace with this being his end.
• Heaven was AWESOME.  He was not going to live alone in Memorex land.  And after a relatively quick drive in Baby, Sammy was there (see "wibbly-wobbly timey wimey") and Dean's 'peace' was done.
• I'm happy with Dean's ending.  If there was ANYONE who deserved a happy ending it was Dean Winchester. He went out a badass hunter (the vamp got lucky, at best).  His knees still worked.  He never gave up cheeseburgers or booze.  Most people are not that lucky. I also don't think he COULD have settled down to a white picket fence. And he was good with that.  He had already raised one child (Sam) and co-parented two others (Ben, then Jack).  And if he was good with it, then I am too.   Finally, the vagueness of what was to come in Heaven allows me to assume it was all sunshine and lollipops (or strippers and ice-cream  or ..... your personal Goosebump version) for forever.

2) This was a good, but not perfect, end for Sam

• At the start of the show, Sam could have gone on to live without Dean and been at real peace.  But not after the last 15 years.  That ship had sailed.  So part of Sam's ending was knowing that after ALL those years Dean took care of him, Sam living on after him was a way of HONORING Dean's memory. 
• And he did have a good life.  A son who he clearly loved.  I'm assuming a wife/partner he loved as well.  There was real joy as he swung toddler Dean around.  
• But Sam was haunted for the rest of his days.  And his Heaven was always going to wind up next to Dean.  Maybe with the timey-wimey stuff Sam could also spend time with his wife/partner (who I'm presuming preceded him in death) without it impacting Dean.  
• I'm okay with Sam's ending.  I think Sam's bittersweet life post-Dean allowed him to fulfill parts of his longing that he still probably had.  I don't know if it was with Eileen or someone else but he got to raise his OWN child. Not everyone needs that in their life but the joy on Sam's face was real.  And this is something Dean knew.  So... I think Sam was good with his ending and thus so am I.

3) The story concept was excellent IMO

• They wanted a definitive 'end'.  I think they earned it.  Someone may come along and rip-up the Heaven they have but they wanted to show that there WAS peace when they were done.  That the boys got their happy ending. After 15 years, I think the show (and I mean cast, and crew, not just the writers and producers) deserve to end the show if they wanted to.
• The 'extra time' between THEN and NOW does allow for more Winchester stories before their happy ever after in Heaven. And then there's the potential for AU trips and even still a post-Heaven comeback.  It's Supernatural ya'll; there are very few boundaries.
• The ....Goosebump fuzziness of it all allows for fan 'dial a story' in Heaven or on the Earth and interpret character's wishes.  So, IMO, if a Destiel fan wants to believe that shortly after the bridge scene, Dean finds Cas and they have some big moment... that's not 'wrong'.  That's not prevented.  Or if they want to believe the next stop was a repeat of the 'meat casserole' at John & Mary's ... that works too.  It ALL works.  

4) The acting was SUBLIME

• I'd put that death scene in the barn against ANY Emmy or Oscar winning performance and say that it stands up against them well.  Jensen continues to tell everything with his face, his gasps, his eyes.  I could write a freaking THESIS on everything that appeared to be going through Dean's mind because Jensen made us SEE it all with his acting.  It's all poignant, loving, heartbreaking and overwhelming. And Jared was superb as well.  Jensen has the perfect 'single tear' face.  Jared just let's it all go with the ugly crying.  And I FELT IT.  I felt Sam's agony.  How hard it was for Sam to say 'it's okay, you can go now Dean'.
• The 'normal day' was just adorable.  Miracle hoping into Dean's bed and him hugging him?  JOYFUL.  Sam apparently at peace with the world (as he admires the Vancouver view).  With only a few words, that sequence gave us a complete vision of happy hunter's lifestyle.  I liked it a lot.

5) The actual script had some ups and down

• Ups: 
  • Normal day, pie!,
  • Cas helped redesign heaven. Jack is 'hands-off'.
  • Sam had a son named Dean and he had a hunter's tatoo.  Sam couldn't live in the bunker anymore.  Sam missed Dean, no matter how long it had been since he died.
  • Bobby being the one to welcome Dean to Heaven.
• Downs:
  • It took effort to see the 'time' between THEN and NOW.  It should have been self-evident and not up for debate.
  • Why cut off the Mom's tongue?  That was weird
  • We never got to see Dean's reaction to Cas' 'I love you' statement. I know 'vague' was the right answer fandom-wise but story-wise, it was clunky IMO to never see any callback to Cas feelings.   [yes, I know, ANY choice there would have been worse than vague... reaction was already rough as it is].  For the record, I could live with any outcome EVENTUALLY.  I think an immediate answer from Dean would have made no sense.  I tend to lean towards a not-romantic future but I don't begrudge anyone who wants that.  

6) Production was pretty good with a few clinkers

• Good stuff:
  • Everything about the bunker was GORGEOUS (laundry!).  Heaven was beautiful.  I loved seeing Harvelle's. 
  • The Impala porn was nice. 
  • Those boys sure do look good in Fed suits.  Fan service chest shot.
  • Did I mention Dean hugging Miracle?  I could talk more about that...   
  • The little personal touches to script and clothing that Jensen and Jared made
  • The J2 goodbye, the bridge show
  • "Cut".  That was fan-f*cking-tastic IMO.  It was a piece of 'closure' for me I didn't know I needed.
• Clinkers:
  • Having "Carry On" IN the show was good, but I missed the montage.  Maybe they should have done it for 15.19 as THAT was the season wrap - or maybe they should have done a montage that started with "Pilot" but I missed it.
  • Those masks were nope. I get it (COVID), but nope.
  • The party-store wig for early-old Sam; I thought hair and makeup did well for dying Sam.

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  After re-watch and some on-line fans attention to detail, I realized that 15.20 was NOT immediately after 15.19.  And THAT got rid of the one initial snag that got in the way of me really enjoying the episode the first time.  With that knowledge in mind, the second watch was EXCELLENT.  I like the way they ended the show.  Dean's death scene was world-class acting IMO from J2. There were some clunky bits in the script and production but I'm AT PEACE with the ending.  I think this one will age well.  Can't ask for much more that that. 

 

SPECULATION LAND:

• It had been at LEAST a year.  Dean and Sam were just too well adjusted for it to have been weeks or months.
• Dean's job application was for part-time work (good way to stay in shape, not for money) because hunting had slowed down now that so many "Big Bads" had been put away in the past 15 years and Chuck wasn't mucking shit up.  Plus Rowena runs a tight ship in hell.  So ordinary monsters probably learned how to stay off the radar (e.g. long-term blood feeders).
• Sam WAS married, it could have been Eileen but I think it could have also been someone else.  I think he stopped hunting.  I suspect he took care of the werewolves.  
• Sam likely passed on the Bunker to a group of hunters.  Maybe Jody is in charge but it could have been someone else.  Someone should write that fic.
• Dean WILL see Cas in Heaven and it is whatever they both want it to be.  
• Cas got his wings back.
• Miracle is a good boy who ends up in Heaven with Sam and Dean

Edited November 25, 2020 by SueB

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't believe it was their intention because I don't believe Badd put that much thought into anything. I just think it's an interesting observation.

In a observationally interesting way?

[gonzosgirrl]

49 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

In a observationally interesting way?

You might say. 🙂

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  After re-watch and some on-line fans attention to detail, I realized that 15.20 was NOT immediately after 15.19. 

Jared said it was weeks. No way do I buy it was anywhere near a year.

Edited November 26, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[PAForrest]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Jared said it was weeks. No way do I buy it was anywhere near a year.

I thought that's what he said - anywhere from a couple to at best a few weeks. If it had been a year jump, they would have put those words on screen like they've done before. Something like, "A year later".

Superficial note - Jensen was breathtaking in this episode. I mean, even more than usual.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, PAForrest said:

I thought that's what he said - anywhere from a couple to at best a few weeks. If it had been a year jump, they would have put those words on screen like they've done before. Something like, "A year later".

Superficial note - Jensen was breathtaking in this episode. I mean, even more than usual.

Yes, on both counts. 🙂

It would be random for Sam to be Sad Face Sam thinking of Cas and Jack if it were a year later. Seems to me like maybe that was their first real outing from the bunker post-19.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

Seriously, his 'happy ever after' was Sam dying old; "You, with a wife and kids and -- and -- and grandkids, living till you're fat and bald and chugging Viagra -- that is my perfect ending, (S8.14) 

I strongly disagree. That might have been Dean in 8x14, when the weight of the world was still on them, and when it seemed that it had to be one or the other of them that survived. But they were free. He had a chance at his own happiness now. And they killed him.

I won't dispute that Sam's happiness was paramount to Dean, but I 100% believe he was at the point in his life where he wanted to be there, too, living that happy life along with him. This is NOT a happy ending in any sense of the word.

Edited November 26, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

I've figured out a way to blame everything...on Jack.

Once he got Cas out of the Empty, and they were working on resetting heaven, he saw how unhappy Cas was and how much he missed Dean (and vice-versa).  Knowing that if both Sam and Dean were together, Cas would still be the third wheel, Jack decided to bring Dean to heaven first, and give them a few decades together alone.  So, like the snake from Orobouros, Jack killed Dean thinking it would make both Cas and Dean happy to have time together.  He didn't want Cas to know that he'd interfered, so he simply moved the rebar two inches over to the proper place and angle.  

But then Cas, learning that he was the cause of Dean's death (and of leaving Sam behind) and unable to do any more resurrections, felt so guilty that he couldn't face him in heaven.  

So...it wasn't fate, or bad luck, or clumsiness that killed Dean so stupidly.  It was Jack.

New head canon! ☺️

 

 

[Castiels Cat]

Has Jensen been on SM telling fans to be quiet or telling fans why they should like it. I get why Misha felt he needed to scold his fans but I refused to watch Jared telling fans why we should love the ending.

Jensen just posted a really funny dark meta spike/rebar meme telling the set department that he had an issue.

[Aeryn13]

5 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Has Jensen been on SM telling fans to be quiet or telling fans why they should like it. I get why Misha felt he needed to scold his fans but I refused to watch Jared telling fans why we should love the ending.

Jensen just posted a really funny dark meta spike/rebar meme telling the set department that he had an issue.

What has Jared posted? Well, he doesn't get to decide who loves or hates the ending. Noone does.

I think Jensen was throwing some shade with the meme.

[Binns]

15 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Has Jensen been on SM telling fans to be quiet or telling fans why they should like it. I get why Misha felt he needed to scold his fans but I refused to watch Jared telling fans why we should love the ending.

Jensen just posted a really funny dark meta spike/rebar meme telling the set department that he had an issue.

I haven’t seen anything from either J other than the one rebar one from JA.

 

ETA JP had a panel but I don’t think he was telling anyone what they should feel. 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Binns

[Castiels Cat]

20 minutes ago, Binns said:

I haven’t seen anything from either J other than the one rebar one from JA.

 

ETA JP had a panel but I don’t think he was telling anyone what they should feel. 

It was a bad promo quote then.

29 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

What has Jared posted? Well, he doesn't get to decide who loves or hates the ending. Noone does.

I think Jensen was throwing some shade with the meme.

Oh he was definitely throwing shade.

[Castiels Cat]

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I've figured out a way to blame everything...on Jack.

Once he got Cas out of the Empty, and they were working on resetting heaven, he saw how unhappy Cas was and how much he missed Dean (and vice-versa).  Knowing that if both Sam and Dean were together, Cas would still be the third wheel, Jack decided to bring Dean to heaven first, and give them a few decades together alone.  So, like the snake from Orobouros, Jack killed Dean thinking it would make both Cas and Dean happy to have time together.  He didn't want Cas to know that he'd interfered, so he simply moved the rebar two inches over to the proper place and angle.  

But then Cas, learning that he was the cause of Dean's death (and of leaving Sam behind) and unable to do any more resurrections, felt so guilty that he couldn't face him in heaven.  

So...it wasn't fate, or bad luck, or clumsiness that killed Dean so stupidly.  It was Jack.

New head canon! ☺️

 

 

Hey fans can crowdsource a reboot that makes it NU canon! And. Then Dean has to take the mf out. I am tired of all these mf gods/writers that steal my mf story.

Didn't I just read that Jensen won Peoole sexiest tv actor category?  That's the power of Dean MFBA Winchester.

 

 

[Myrelle]

So I just saw a pic of Dean's Last Breath and now I can't unsee it and I realized that this is how I'm going to remember the finale of this show. 😪

[Binns]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

So I just saw a pic of Dean's Last Breath and now I can't unsee it and I realized that this is how I'm going to remember the finale of this show. 😪

With the tear? It kills me every time.