S15.E20: Carry On (Series Finale)

Katy M · November 23, 2020

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

After what he spouted during his death scene, why would it be ridiculous? He reduced himself to being entirely about Sam. So just driving around to wait for Sam because he isn't even his own person and has no wants of his own would be exactly logical. If it was for an hour or 50 years. This episode said some things about thr character and none of them was good.

It's not like while they were alive he had to be with Sam 24/7. So why would he during death? No, he was not driving around for 50 years.

PAForrest · November 23, 2020

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This was what I read

Sigh, please stop talking.

COVID or no COVID, Dean and Sam were still going to have their own scene at the end. That never changed. And it was lovely and the way the series should have ended. No argument there.

The other scene was Dean's side of the story, though - it wasn't supposed to be about Sam. It was supposed to mirror Sam's side of things. Sam still had his own stupid life we got to see that I assume didn't change at all.

Dean is the one who got the insulting crappy death less than half-way into the episode, so it sure would have been nice, especially for a lot of distraught Dean fans, to at least have gotten to see the heaven Dean actually "deserved". I know it couldn't happen exactly that way due to COVID, but deciding instead to just cut it and do nothing at all for Dean is a bitter pill to swallow. Makes that bleak boring heaven on the porch even more depressing than it already looked to be.

Edited November 23, 2020 by PAForrest

Lemuria · November 23, 2020

I needed to process this some before I wrote anything down. Yeah, not really happy with this, for a number of reasons but before I get to that I did just want to address the fight and what Dean said. I didn't see that Sam was so great in that fight and Dean was a failure. In fact, Sam ended up getting Dean disarmed, so that in the final struggle, Sam had a machete and Dean didn't. Sam managed to get himself knocked unconscious and out of the fight (because of "writer armor" the vampire left him that way instead of killing him on the spot!) and Dean ended up being double-teamed and taken down because of that. When Sam came to, he took out Ms. Vampire from behind which her cohorts, who were staring right in that direction failed to notice (apparently vampires go to the same ophthalmologist as white walkers, who failed to notice ~~Bozo the Clown~~ Arya going right past them) and then the brawl broke out. Dean was basically fighting unarmed and holding his own until the vampire shoved him into the spike.

As for the speech to Sam, I felt the same way about it as some other posters here: Dean was saying what he needed to say to get Sam to let go. Not to give Dean permission to leave--because that was going happen no matter what--but for Dean to do one last thing for his brother and convince him that he was strong enough to go on without Dean. Because I think Dean had come to see just how fragile and dependent Sam really was, how needy he was, and we've seen the terrible things that have resulted from that. Dean, despite the pain and failing strength, was holding on to make Sam believe that Sam could make it alone, so that he, Dean, could at last put down the elder brother burden and move on. JMO

(I will say that I was not happy that Sam did not say something back to Dean on that at the funeral. I didn't expect him to do it in the warehouse--he was falling apart--but I did expect to hear something from him at the funeral. That was a disappointment for me both for the episode and for the character of Sam.)

Was I happy with Dabb cutting Dean's post-Chuck time so short? Hell, no. Dean deserved way more than that. For me, the finale was Dabb showing just how small and petty he is. He's been giving an indication that he was going for a scorched earth approach intended to make it impossible for anyone to add or change or do anything to the finale. Including fans: he was taking away the "future" of the characters for fans to fantasize or write into. I'd always wanted, whenever it was that the show ended, to be able to think of Dean as still driving Baby and fighting the good fight. (Though the fact that Dean had a signed employment contract gives some wiggle room: that didn't happen overnight. He--and Sam--would have to process what had happened and talk about what they wanted do. Dean needed to look around for a job that interested him, apply, possibly interview and then work out an employment contract. So, I'm now holding to some passage of time.)

Dabb, IMO, didn't just take this from Dean. Yes, Sam had a family but that was it. He seemed happy in a small way but the scene with Baby showed that he never really got over Dean's death. I don't believe he hunted: He left the bunker and did not move into Bobby's place--two big repositories of lore and research. If he intended to hunt, that would be an almost a suicidal thing to do. The tattoo could mean that Dean's namesake did intend to hunt (I'm assuming Sam told him about it all) but it could also be Sam not making the same mistake he made back at Stanford and this time, protecting his family from the things that go bump in the night.

I did want Dean (and Sam) to get some recognition for everything he's saved. Neither he nor Sam did. So I'll go on thinking that some day someone he saved comes across the books and sees their own supernatural incident and realizes who the books are about and tells everybody, and it spirals out from there.

I don't think that Dabb realizes that by killing Dean here makes the finale about Dean. Or that his super special favorite Vanilla Pudding Jack has already faded into the woodwork, just another uncaring and uninvolved God.

In terms of Heaven, I like to think that Dean will shake things up a little. You know, "human disorder incarnate." And I also went back and checked and I don't think that Jack ever indicated that he'd sealed Heaven or Hell off. A coup in Hell that ends with demons invading Midgard again might need some experienced heavenly fighters. So I'll run with that!

Quote

I interpreted that he had only been driving for a little bit because that’s how time in heaven works. That’s why they specifically had Bobby mention that time was different. He took a scenic drive in the car he loves listening to music he loves, and then he met Sam on the bridge. I assume after that they went and reunited with everyone else together. I really didn’t get the feeling he just drove around, or sat around waiting and waiting for a long time

That's my feeling also. There was no change from day to night, no change from the forest scene to something else. We were told time runs differently (and apparently in the opposite way to Hell: it was longer in Hell than on Earth, it was shorter in Heaven than on Earth). And I thought that it also showed that Dean had put down that responsibility: he was enjoying the drive and the day and did not seem to worry or think about Sam.

I feel a lot sadness at the end of the show, even though I was not happy with it for some time now. I started with the very first episode and fell in love with Dean Winchester around "Faith." He was a constant companion for 15 years during which a lot of not great things occurred for me and my family. (On the other side of that fence, I've made some very good and dear friends, whom I cherish greatly.)

And it struck me yesterday that I have come here--or any other site--to rave or rant about a new episode of Supernatural for the last time. That there are no Supernatural or Dean Winchester signposts ahead of me anymore; they are all in the rearview mirror. And that, one day, the lights will all be turned off for this forum, the same way that Sam turned out the lights in the bunker.

And that hurt way more than I thought it would.

Castiels Cat · November 23, 2020

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The thing that grates is that they could have spent 3 minutes showing Dean applying for that job or even getting the job (glad was wrong and it wasn't a will), still hunting a bit, and then telling Sam he's quitting hunting, but let's take this one last case. And then he dies. To me that would have been truly tragic. Show us a time jump like 4 months later or something so we could see Dean seeking a new life, caring for the pooch, grieving Cas or trying to get him out of the Empty, and then accepting he isn't coming back. Show Sam grieving Eileen or having a long distance relationship with her. To me that would have had a much more tragic punch and would have been a much bigger FU to Chuck.

Because Dean had so much more character development, than this finale implies.

I'm still smad!

The difference is that you care and you actually took some time to think about how to give the character a righteous exit worthy of his 15 year arc and fans. Dabb didn't care and didn't bother.

Castiels Cat · November 23, 2020

20 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I needed to process this some before I wrote anything down. Yeah, not really happy with this, for a number of reasons but before I get to that I did just want to address the fight and what Dean said. I didn't see that Sam was so great in that fight and Dean was a failure. In fact, Sam ended up getting Dean disarmed, so that in the final struggle, Sam had a machete and Dean didn't. Sam managed to get himself knocked unconscious and out of the fight (because of "writer armor" the vampire left him that way instead of killing him on the spot!) and Dean ended up being double-teamed and taken down because of that. When Sam came to, he took out Ms. Vampire from behind which her cohorts, who were staring right in that direction failed to notice (apparently vampires go to the same ophthalmologist as white walkers, who failed to notice ~~Bozo the Clown~~ Arya going right past them) and then the brawl broke out. Dean was basically fighting unarmed and holding his own until the vampire shoved him into the spike.

As for the speech to Sam, I felt the same way about it as some other posters here: Dean was saying what he needed to say to get Sam to let go. Not to give Dean permission to leave--because that was going happen no matter what--but for Dean to do one last thing for his brother and convince him that he was strong enough to go on without Dean. Because I think Dean had come to see just how fragile and dependent Sam really was, how needy he was, and we've seen the terrible things that have resulted from that. Dean, despite the pain and failing strength, was holding on to make Sam believe that Sam could make it alone, so that he, Dean, could at last put down the elder brother burden and move on. JMO

(I will say that I was not happy that Sam did not say something back to Dean on that at the funeral. I didn't expect him to do it in the warehouse--he was falling apart--but I did expect to hear something from him at the funeral. That was a disappointment for me both for the episode and for the character of Sam.)

Was I happy with Dabb cutting Dean's post-Chuck time so short? Hell, no. Dean deserved way more than that. For me, the finale was Dabb showing just how small and petty he is. He's been giving an indication that he was going for a scorched earth approach intended to make it impossible for anyone to add or change or do anything to the finale. Including fans: he was taking away the "future" of the characters for fans to fantasize or write into. I'd always wanted, whenever it was that the show ended, to be able to think of Dean as still driving Baby and fighting the good fight. (Though the fact that Dean had a signed employment contract gives some wiggle room: that didn't happen overnight. He--and Sam--would have to process what had happened and talk about what they wanted do. Dean needed to look around for a job that interested him, apply, possibly interview and then work out an employment contract. So, I'm now holding to some passage of time.)

Dabb, IMO, didn't just take this from Dean. Yes, Sam had a family but that was it. He seemed happy in a small way but the scene with Baby showed that he never really got over Dean's death. I don't believe he hunted: He left the bunker and did not move into Bobby's place--two big repositories of lore and research. If he intended to hunt, that would be an almost a suicidal thing to do. The tattoo could mean that Dean's namesake did intend to hunt (I'm assuming Sam told him about it all) but it could also be Sam not making the same mistake he made back at Stanford and this time, protecting his family from the things that go bump in the night.

I did want Dean (and Sam) to get some recognition for everything he's saved. Neither he nor Sam did. So I'll go on thinking that some day someone he saved comes across the books and sees their own supernatural incident and realizes who the books are about and tells everybody, and it spirals out from there.

I don't think that Dabb realizes that by killing Dean here makes the finale about Dean. Or that his super special favorite Vanilla Pudding Jack has already faded into the woodwork, just another uncaring and uninvolved God.

In terms of Heaven, I like to think that Dean will shake things up a little. You know, "human disorder incarnate." And I also went back and checked and I don't think that Jack ever indicated that he'd sealed Heaven or Hell off. A coup in Hell that ends with demons invading Midgard again might need some experienced heavenly fighters. So I'll run with that!

That's my feeling also. There was no change from day to night, no change from the forest scene to something else. We were told time runs differently (and apparently in the opposite way to Hell: it was longer in Hell than on Earth, it was shorter in Heaven than on Earth). And I thought that it also showed that Dean had put down that responsibility: he was enjoying the drive and the day and did not seem to worry or think about Sam.

I feel a lot sadness at the end of the show, even though I was not happy with it for some time now. I started with the very first episode and fell in love with Dean Winchester around "Faith." He was a constant companion for 15 years during which a lot of not great things occurred for me and my family. (On the other side of that fence, I've made some very good and dear friends, whom I cherish greatly.)

And it struck me yesterday that I have come here--or any other site--to rave or rant about a new episode of Supernatural for the last time. That there are no Supernatural or Dean Winchester signposts ahead of me anymore; they are all in the rearview mirror. And that, one day, the lights will all be turned off for this forum, the same way that Sam turned out the lights in the bunker.

And that hurt way more than I thought it would.

Thank you for this. IDK. Maybe with time and perspective I will be able to watch with more distance. It was not well choreographed. It was the epitome of Sam waking up and getting all the kills only this time Dean dies.

I never bought into a bias against Dean until they gave Jack his storyline so quickly I developed whiplash and the writing denigrated and deconstructed every admirable quality.

I hope crew member or 2 talks at some point.

There's a story or three going on and they have nothing to do with Jensen.

Castiels Cat · November 23, 2020

59 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Sigh, please stop talking.

COVID or no COVID, Dean and Sam were still going to have their own scene at the end. That never changed. And it was lovely and the way the series should have ended. No argument there.

The other scene was Dean's side of the story, though - it wasn't supposed to be about Sam. It was supposed to mirror Sam's side of things. Sam still had his own stupid life we got to see that I assume didn't change at all.

Dean is the one who got the insulting crappy death less than half-way into the episode, so it sure would have been nice, especially for a lot of distraught Dean fans, to at least have gotten to see the heaven Dean actually "deserved". I know it couldn't happen exactly that way due to COVID, but deciding instead to just cut it and do nothing at all for Dean is a bitter pill to swallow. Makes that bleak boring heaven on the porch even more depressing than it already looked to be.

Narcissistic tendencies methinks.

gonzosgirrl · November 23, 2020

59 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Sigh, please stop talking.

Lol, I'm gonna assume you meant Jared and not me. 😛

@Lemuria I like your take. I have to find a way to make peace with this episode and you make a good case.

Binns · November 23, 2020

35 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I needed to process this some before I wrote anything down. Yeah, not really happy with this, for a number of reasons but before I get to that I did just want to address the fight and what Dean said. I didn't see that Sam was so great in that fight and Dean was a failure. In fact, Sam ended up getting Dean disarmed, so that in the final struggle, Sam had a machete and Dean didn't. Sam managed to get himself knocked unconscious and out of the fight (because of "writer armor" the vampire left him that way instead of killing him on the spot!) and Dean ended up being double-teamed and taken down because of that. When Sam came to, he took out Ms. Vampire from behind which her cohorts, who were staring right in that direction failed to notice (apparently vampires go to the same ophthalmologist as white walkers, who failed to notice ~~Bozo the Clown~~ Arya going right past them) and then the brawl broke out. Dean was basically fighting unarmed and holding his own until the vampire shoved him into the spike.

As for the speech to Sam, I felt the same way about it as some other posters here: Dean was saying what he needed to say to get Sam to let go. Not to give Dean permission to leave--because that was going happen no matter what--but for Dean to do one last thing for his brother and convince him that he was strong enough to go on without Dean. Because I think Dean had come to see just how fragile and dependent Sam really was, how needy he was, and we've seen the terrible things that have resulted from that. Dean, despite the pain and failing strength, was holding on to make Sam believe that Sam could make it alone, so that he, Dean, could at last put down the elder brother burden and move on. JMO

(I will say that I was not happy that Sam did not say something back to Dean on that at the funeral. I didn't expect him to do it in the warehouse--he was falling apart--but I did expect to hear something from him at the funeral. That was a disappointment for me both for the episode and for the character of Sam.)

Was I happy with Dabb cutting Dean's post-Chuck time so short? Hell, no. Dean deserved way more than that. For me, the finale was Dabb showing just how small and petty he is. He's been giving an indication that he was going for a scorched earth approach intended to make it impossible for anyone to add or change or do anything to the finale. Including fans: he was taking away the "future" of the characters for fans to fantasize or write into. I'd always wanted, whenever it was that the show ended, to be able to think of Dean as still driving Baby and fighting the good fight. (Though the fact that Dean had a signed employment contract gives some wiggle room: that didn't happen overnight. He--and Sam--would have to process what had happened and talk about what they wanted do. Dean needed to look around for a job that interested him, apply, possibly interview and then work out an employment contract. So, I'm now holding to some passage of time.)

Dabb, IMO, didn't just take this from Dean. Yes, Sam had a family but that was it. He seemed happy in a small way but the scene with Baby showed that he never really got over Dean's death. I don't believe he hunted: He left the bunker and did not move into Bobby's place--two big repositories of lore and research. If he intended to hunt, that would be an almost a suicidal thing to do. The tattoo could mean that Dean's namesake did intend to hunt (I'm assuming Sam told him about it all) but it could also be Sam not making the same mistake he made back at Stanford and this time, protecting his family from the things that go bump in the night.

I did want Dean (and Sam) to get some recognition for everything he's saved. Neither he nor Sam did. So I'll go on thinking that some day someone he saved comes across the books and sees their own supernatural incident and realizes who the books are about and tells everybody, and it spirals out from there.

I don't think that Dabb realizes that by killing Dean here makes the finale about Dean. Or that his super special favorite Vanilla Pudding Jack has already faded into the woodwork, just another uncaring and uninvolved God.

In terms of Heaven, I like to think that Dean will shake things up a little. You know, "human disorder incarnate." And I also went back and checked and I don't think that Jack ever indicated that he'd sealed Heaven or Hell off. A coup in Hell that ends with demons invading Midgard again might need some experienced heavenly fighters. So I'll run with that!

That's my feeling also. There was no change from day to night, no change from the forest scene to something else. We were told time runs differently (and apparently in the opposite way to Hell: it was longer in Hell than on Earth, it was shorter in Heaven than on Earth). And I thought that it also showed that Dean had put down that responsibility: he was enjoying the drive and the day and did not seem to worry or think about Sam.

I feel a lot sadness at the end of the show, even though I was not happy with it for some time now. I started with the very first episode and fell in love with Dean Winchester around "Faith." He was a constant companion for 15 years during which a lot of not great things occurred for me and my family. (On the other side of that fence, I've made some very good and dear friends, whom I cherish greatly.)

And it struck me yesterday that I have come here--or any other site--to rave or rant about a new episode of Supernatural for the last time. That there are no Supernatural or Dean Winchester signposts ahead of me anymore; they are all in the rearview mirror. And that, one day, the lights will all be turned off for this forum, the same way that Sam turned out the lights in the bunker.

And that hurt way more than I thought it would.

I really enjoy what you have to say here. It helps me process more.

BabySpinach · November 23, 2020

47 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I needed to process this some before I wrote anything down. Yeah, not really happy with this, for a number of reasons but before I get to that I did just want to address the fight and what Dean said. I didn't see that Sam was so great in that fight and Dean was a failure. In fact, Sam ended up getting Dean disarmed, so that in the final struggle, Sam had a machete and Dean didn't. Sam managed to get himself knocked unconscious and out of the fight (because of "writer armor" the vampire left him that way instead of killing him on the spot!) and Dean ended up being double-teamed and taken down because of that. When Sam came to, he took out Ms. Vampire from behind which her cohorts, who were staring right in that direction failed to notice (apparently vampires go to the same ophthalmologist as white walkers, who failed to notice ~~Bozo the Clown~~ Arya going right past them) and then the brawl broke out. Dean was basically fighting unarmed and holding his own until the vampire shoved him into the spike.

Was I happy with Dabb cutting Dean's post-Chuck time so short? Hell, no. Dean deserved way more than that. For me, the finale was Dabb showing just how small and petty he is. He's been giving an indication that he was going for a scorched earth approach intended to make it impossible for anyone to add or change or do anything to the finale. Including fans: he was taking away the "future" of the characters for fans to fantasize or write into. I'd always wanted, whenever it was that the show ended, to be able to think of Dean as still driving Baby and fighting the good fight. (Though the fact that Dean had a signed employment contract gives some wiggle room: that didn't happen overnight. He--and Sam--would have to process what had happened and talk about what they wanted do. Dean needed to look around for a job that interested him, apply, possibly interview and then work out an employment contract. So, I'm now holding to some passage of time.)

I don't think that Dabb realizes that by killing Dean here makes the finale about Dean. Or that his super special favorite Vanilla Pudding Jack has already faded into the woodwork, just another uncaring and uninvolved God.

In terms of Heaven, I like to think that Dean will shake things up a little. You know, "human disorder incarnate." And I also went back and checked and I don't think that Jack ever indicated that he'd sealed Heaven or Hell off. A coup in Hell that ends with demons invading Midgard again might need some experienced heavenly fighters. So I'll run with that!

That's my feeling also. There was no change from day to night, no change from the forest scene to something else. We were told time runs differently (and apparently in the opposite way to Hell: it was longer in Hell than on Earth, it was shorter in Heaven than on Earth). And I thought that it also showed that Dean had put down that responsibility: he was enjoying the drive and the day and did not seem to worry or think about Sam.

Thank you for your perspective! I found it refreshing.

I really like the bolded point you made. Ever since the finale aired, I'd say that a good 80% of the discourse has been about Dean/Jensen. Sam's generic apple-pie life got very little attention by comparison (except for the wig lmao), but so many opinions and emotions have been expressed about Dean's final fate that they've dominated the conversation. And Dabb's precious pet Vanilla Wafer God was almost completely forgotten, as he should have been. Well, anything that potentially pisses off Dabb makes me happy!

You're also right in that Sam was the first to drop the ball in the vamp fight. He got one last knock on the noggin for old times' sake and left Dean to fend for himself, resulting in him losing his machete but still matching the largest and burliest one with just his fists. And if the rebar hadn't happened to be there, Dean would have come out of the fight with barely a scratch.

I still can't get over how gratuitously cruel and narratively empty it was to kill Dean so soon after their defeat of Chuck, though. There was literally nothing stopping them from letting Dean live a bit after he'd finally gained self-worth and happiness for the first time in his life. That would have sent a much better message about healing and moving on from trauma. It all just seemed so petty to me, not to mention pointlessly tragic.

By the way, anyone realize that the alternate yuppie versions of Sam and Dean could still be kicking around in Brazil as old men? Wonder what they're up to...

Edited November 23, 2020 by BabySpinach

DeeDee79 · November 23, 2020

1 hour ago, PAForrest said:

Sigh, please stop talking.

COVID or no COVID, Dean and Sam were still going to have their own scene at the end. That never changed. And it was lovely and the way the series should have ended. No argument there.

The other scene was Dean's side of the story, though - it wasn't supposed to be about Sam. It was supposed to mirror Sam's side of things. Sam still had his own stupid life we got to see that I assume didn't change at all.

Dean is the one who got the insulting crappy death less than half-way into the episode, so it sure would have been nice, especially for a lot of distraught Dean fans, to at least have gotten to see the heaven Dean actually "deserved". I know it couldn't happen exactly that way due to COVID, but deciding instead to just cut it and do nothing at all for Dean is a bitter pill to swallow. Makes that bleak boring heaven on the porch even more depressing than it already looked to be.

I watched the episode from Dean's death til the end ( I'll get around to watching the entire ep ) and I agree that it would have been nice to see John and Mary greeting Dean after his death. He's always been all about family and with the frustrating way that his relationships with his parents have been depicted it would have been nice to have been given an actual affectionate scene with them. I would have even preferred that John would have been waiting on the porch instead of Bobby.

Edited November 23, 2020 by DeeDee79

Binns · November 23, 2020

33 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

I still can't get over how gratuitously cruel and narratively empty it was to kill Dean so soon after their defeat of Chuck, though. There was literally nothing stopping them from letting Dean live a bit after he'd finally gained self-worth and happiness for the first time in his life. That would have sent a much better message about healing and moving on from trauma. It all just seemed so petty to me, not to mention pointlessly tragic.

I keep seeing (on Twitter which who knows how reliable that is) that JP said during 1:1 or M&G that it was a longer period of time than we thought. Again, not good storytelling if we didn’t know that from watching. But @Lemuria made a good point that a signed contract for a job or whatever means it was more than the couple of days or even weeks that we (I) thought it was.

BabySpinach · November 23, 2020

22 minutes ago, Binns said:

I keep seeing (on Twitter which who knows how reliable that is) that JP said during 1:1 or M&G that it was a longer period of time than we thought. Again, not good storytelling if we didn’t know that from watching. But @Lemuria made a good point that a signed contract for a job or whatever means it was more than the couple of days or even weeks that we (I) thought it was.

If it actually was a signed contract for a job then that kind of makes it worse, no? That would mean that Dean's eventual death via hunting wasn't even a sure thing, and that he could have conceivably lived a much longer life if he'd actually gotten to hang up his gun. I don't know, I'd much prefer to believe that Dean would have chosen to continue hunting and saving people (while also enjoying life and being loved and finally loving himself) rather than have the writers turn out to be even more pointlessly sadistic than I gave them credit for. Can't say I'm fond of the ol' "two days from retirement" shtick, especially when it concerns a main character; I find it cheap and emotionally manipulative.

ETA: I feel that if it actually were a job contract, they would have added a close-up shot of the document just to confirm that for sure. I can't imagine TPTB passing up such a golden opportunity to wring even more "feelz" out of us.

Edited November 23, 2020 by BabySpinach

Binns · November 23, 2020

4 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

If it actually was a signed contract for a job then that kind of makes it worse, no? That would mean that Dean's eventual death via hunting wasn't even a sure thing, and that he could have conceivably lived a much longer life if he'd actually gotten to hang up his gun. I don't know, I'd much prefer to believe that Dean would have chosen to continue hunting and saving people (while also enjoying life and being loved and finally loving himself) rather than have the writers turn out to be even more pointlessly sadistic than I gave them credit for. Can't say I'm fond of the ol' "two days from retirement" shtick, especially when it concerns a main character; I find it cheap and emotionally manipulative.

Oh, I think it’s a tragic end for sure. But my point was it was longer than the couple of days or weeks we thought. I wanted Dean to have a longer happier life on Earth. He really deserved it more than anyone, if he would have been able to stick with a normal life.

tessathereaper · November 23, 2020

On 11/21/2020 at 12:12 PM, Pondlass1 said:

Had Sam died on that prong I wonder what Dean would’ve done. I don’t think Sam would’ve argued to die and even if he did, Dean wouldn’t have let him. Dean’s codependence has always been steadfast and unhealthy. Dad did a number on him and it stuck. And if it did come to a hunter’s pyre and Sam drifted up to heaven, Dean would’ve become John, a hothead hunter bent on revenge and retribution. Wildly killing every son of a bitch monster he could find. No picket fence and son named Sam for him. Dean goes down swinging and although heaven would welcome his soul.. remember he described purgatory as ‘pure’ and after forty years in hell he confessed to Sam that he ‘liked it’

The formative years can really mess up a kid.😊

I don't think so. I think that's exactly what might have made Sam's death more interesting than Dean's(though my believe is neither should have died). Dean would have had an actual journey(whether we saw it or not) to finding something and someone else to fight for or maybe realizing he already did, he just hadn't understood it, because he thought it was all Sam. Dean is not and has never been that revenge driven killer his father was. He was never John. He's had his moments of rage but ultimately it's not him. He's a caring, loving person at his very core.

Heck Sam died in Season 5, Dean wasn't obsessed with rescuing him. Dean did research but he never found a way to get him out and he did not turn into a revenge driven killer. Sure he had Lisa and Ben in that case, but if anything he's actually become less co-dependent over the years(despite the writers laziness and occassional backsliding, which is exactly what makes the finale so terrible IMO, it ignored 15 years of character development).

I don't think we can somehow take what Dean said after 40 years in Hell as a character description. He wasn't in "normal hell" he had Hell's head torturer trying to break him for decades, with a steely purpose of getting that first seal broken because he was the Righteous Man. Lucifer whatever had his "fun" with Sam, but it was more like a pastime, because there was no real purpose behind it, he wasn't on a timeline, it wasn't a focused constant assault like it was with Dean(which is not to say Sam didn't suffer, just saying Dean may have been there less time but his was a constant purposely high level torture for the purpose of getting him to break). ANYONE whose been tortured enough(they can't teach you NOT to break, they can give you some methods to delay it but EVERYONE has a breaking point) is eventually going to "like it", it's classic Stockholm Syndrome. Dean was constantly tortured, what he liked was NOT being tortured anymore, but naturally he felt terrible about it afterwards.

(And clearly Alastair was lying about John not breaking, because they were already trying to get Dean to trade his soul for John's and were willing to wait ten years(1200 in Hell Time) to get it, only a few months after John went to Hell, that means they KNEW John wasn't the Righteous Man by then, so either he'd already broken and nothing happened or they never thought he was the Righteous Man in the first place, so he didn't get the special Head Torturer treatment at all(he was clearly roaming around Hell and not chained up like Dean had been, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to escape at the end of Season 2) and just figured they'd try to use him to lure Dean)

tessathereaper · November 23, 2020

On 11/21/2020 at 4:25 PM, companionenvy said:

Working within the restrictions that the rest of the season had left us with, I would have liked an ending in which Sam kept hunting--though maybe on a somewhat reduced scale that would accommodate things like going back to school, a relationship, etc-- and Dean decided he was done, at least for now, and set out alone (or with Miracle!) in Baby on a long, non-hunting related road trip across America.

It wouldn't have been as conclusive, but I think it would have been more satisfying.

I really think this is the sort of ending they should have went for, not necessarily the same details, but along the same idea. Just leave it open ended, both of them alive, we don't how they ended up living their lives or when or how they actually died. And you can still get the special emotional ending in Heaven to finish out the main 15 season series, while leaving lots of room for potential sequels where they could fill in some of the details.

tessathereaper · November 23, 2020

14 hours ago, PAForrest said:

I can't watch it again either - I still have it on the dvr, but I really can't bring myself to watch it. But when I do, at least it's packaged to where I can FF and simply ignore Samantha's porn star wigged life. It has nothing to do with Dean, so I don't have to give a damn anymore - and I don't.

What's weird is how frankly depressing Sam's life was. I personally don't think we're supposed to believe he ever hooked up with Eileen again. He doesn't mention her in 19 or 20. No, I think what happened, given the blatant Walker promo insert (also annoying AF) and Sam going to Austin, is that he hooked up with some rando broodmare - because that's literally all she was - so he could get a little Dean. The kid seemed to be all he cared about, when he cared about anything. The broodmare is never given a face and isn't by his bedside when he dies, and he doesn't go to her in Heaven if we're supposed to assume she's not there because she died first. Either way, she's irrelevant to us and obviously even more so to Sam. Wow, what a happy life. Yes, it's a Wincester's wet dream (gag me), but in the real world it's just pathetic.

However, I had an epiphany about Dean's "heaven" last night after reading a fix-it fic - because now that's what I have to do to find a decent ending for Dean, since Drabb refused to give him one. And it dawned on me after reading this one fic why Dean's heaven scenes didn't work either - aside from being given no thought by the "writer". Every born again Drabb devotee is claiming Dean was at peace, except that's not how Jensen played it at all, which is interesting. Dean didn't even look especially happy to see Bobby, and when he's sitting on the porch with him he actually looked bored AF. The only time he perks up is when he sees heaven Baby, and decides to go for a drive.

And again, because Drabb refused to put even an ounce of thought into Dean's heaven, all we see is the guy driving around - not taking the opportunity everyone claims he always wanted to visit family or friends. No, literally all he does is drive.

Why? It finally struck me that driving Baby is the closest thing Dean knows to life as he remembers it. Driving Baby feels like living - because he really does want more life. Dean does not look happy or content in heaven, except in the car and finally reuniting with Sam at the end. But for Dean, heaven regardless of whether it's a prison cell or an open garden is still not life. It is not the peace when he is done everyone promised. For Dean Winchester, heaven is purposeless and boring.

That is exactly my feeling. Heaven isn't peace, heaven isn't life. Heaven is stagnation and memory(it may not be Memorex but it's still memory as shown by the fact that the beer tasted like the first one he had with his dad) and that's it. That's not Dean wanted. Dean would be bored stiff because as much as Dabb wants to sell the idea that his what Dean wanted and that's Dean's just some normal shlub, Dean is not. Dean is, and always has been, like a force of nature. He's someone who caused an angel to rebel, he's someone who brought peace, however temporary to The Darkness(Amara). He had the King of Hell wanting to be his best friend. He is someone who well, had God himself focused on him. Pretty sure that wasn't God's plan in his writing, in fact it's what made him angry. So if Dean is all that, then how was everything special and great about him just "plot armor"? It doesn't even make sense.

tessathereaper · November 23, 2020

2 hours ago, Binns said:

I keep seeing (on Twitter which who knows how reliable that is) that JP said during 1:1 or M&G that it was a longer period of time than we thought. Again, not good storytelling if we didn’t know that from watching. But @Lemuria made a good point that a signed contract for a job or whatever means it was more than the couple of days or even weeks that we (I) thought it was.

It wouldn't take that long to get a job. More than a couple days, yeah but it wouldn't necessarily take more than weeks. But in any case if it wasn't on screen then the passage time is what it seems like, which is to say soon after Chuck is defeated on their first apparently hunt.

juppschmitz · November 23, 2020

12 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

You guyssssss 😞 It was established in episode 1 by Kevin that any soul that had been to hell couldn't go to heaven. They never had any reason to change this assessment. They didn't have confirmation Jack made things any better than ~how they always were~ and this is presented like one of the laws of nature. We know they don't know, because then they would also know that memorex heaven wasn't a thing anymore.

My point is that whole time Dean was 100% sure he was going back to hell.

And who told Sam? No wonder he looked so depressed.

THAT'S IT! Dean is in "The Good Place"! NOW it makes so much more sense! AND it's a nice, creepy ending worthy of a HORROR show!

PAForrest · November 23, 2020

6 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

THAT'S IT! Dean is in "The Good Place"! NOW it makes so much more sense! AND it's a nice, creepy ending worthy of a HORROR show!

And The Good Place ending was SO much better! Yeah, we should be so lucky that Dean ended up on The Good Place. Ha!

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Lol, I'm gonna assume you meant Jared and not me. 😛

LOL! Yes, exactly. You keep on keeping on, my dear! 😊

11 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I needed to process this some before I wrote anything down...

....

... Because I think Dean had come to see just how fragile and dependent Sam really was, how needy he was, and we've seen the terrible things that have resulted from that. Dean, despite the pain and failing strength, was holding on to make Sam believe that Sam could make it alone, so that he, Dean, could at last put down the elder brother burden and move on. JMO

(I will say that I was not happy that Sam did not say something back to Dean on that at the funeral. I didn't expect him to do it in the warehouse--he was falling apart--but I did expect to hear something from him at the funeral. That was a disappointment for me both for the episode and for the character of Sam.)

Was I happy with Dabb cutting Dean's post-Chuck time so short? Hell, no. Dean deserved way more than that. For me, the finale was Dabb showing just how small and petty he is. He's been giving an indication that he was going for a scorched earth approach intended to make it impossible for anyone to add or change or do anything to the finale. Including fans: he was taking away the "future" of the characters for fans to fantasize or write into. I'd always wanted, whenever it was that the show ended, to be able to think of Dean as still driving Baby and fighting the good fight...

...

I don't think that Dabb realizes that by killing Dean here makes the finale about Dean. Or that his super special favorite Vanilla Pudding Jack has already faded into the woodwork, just another uncaring and uninvolved God.

In terms of Heaven, I like to think that Dean will shake things up a little. You know, "human disorder incarnate." And I also went back and checked and I don't think that Jack ever indicated that he'd sealed Heaven or Hell off. A coup in Hell that ends with demons invading Midgard again might need some experienced heavenly fighters. So I'll run with that!

I'm glad you processed and finally posted your review. A lot of food for thought there. I'm not sure I can see the fight scene the way you do yet - especially since I can't actually watch the fight scene again. The finale continues to take up room on my dvr, just sitting there because I can't hit play. In fact, last night it dawned on me that Dabb really may have How I Met Your Mother'd this show for me, and possibly some other fans. I don't think I can go back and watch any episode of any season now knowing what a terrible and entirely unnecessary end awaits one of my all time favorite characters. At least, not for a very long time. We'll have to see. But anytime soon - no, it's not going to happen.

I do agree about making the finale all about Dean Winchester and Jensen Ackles, which we know was not this showrunner's intention at all. You'd think after all these years and all these showrunners they'd get it, but apparently they can't be taught. The same thing happened with Swan Song - and every other time they've tried to screw over Dean or remove him from the equation. I remember the entire summer after SS aired, 99% of the conversation was about Dean being thrown out of his storyline, with Sam fans having to try and convince fandom that Dean was important; and even Kripke having to tap-dance at Comic Con after admitting to having read all the angry fan reviews. At a European con that summer Misha Collins also talked about how they all knew the finale didn't go down well.

Because Dean Winchester is an icon, he's important to this show, he's beloved - and the fact is they really do know that. They've counted on his popularity all these years it to continue to sell the show. Without Jensen Ackles playing a vital half of the brotherhood and having the chemistry he did with JP, we wouldn't be here arguing about Supernatural because it's unlikely the pilot would have even made it out of the basement. Kripke even said it - the brothers' relationship was the one component that would make or break the series. So get the wrong actor to play Dean Winchester, and again, we're not here 15 years later.

I completely agree about Mr. Human Disorder Incarnate. There is simply no way Dean Winchester is going to be happy languishing in heaven. That's not who he is, and yes, I too am already thinking about how he's going to stage his heaven prison break!

Edited November 23, 2020 by PAForrest

BabySpinach · November 23, 2020

Welp, someone on Tumblr pointed out that Dean died younger than John did and now I want to rip out my organs.

The Companion · November 23, 2020

On 11/19/2020 at 10:28 PM, ahrtee said:

I understand Covid, and yes, Sam could have wanted to mourn alone. But the the first two times mentioned above, neither surviving Winchester accepted the death, and so didn't want the finality of a funeral, and the third time there was no body, since Dean wasn't actually dead. In fact, neither one ever got a hunter's funeral, no matter how many times (or how) they died.

Even Mary got a full hunter's send off, and I would think Donna and Jody at least, plus Garth and the WS, should have been there. Or did Sam even tell anyone this time? They could have had a long shot of the pyre with doubles for them surrounding Sam. At the very least, I would have liked some mention--maybe a VO phone conversation with Jody saying something like, "yeah, I'm OK. No, I don't want company. Thanks."

The other thing that struck me as particularly odd was that, in Sam's crowded mantlepiece with all those pictures, there was no wedding picture, no picture at all of a wife, even with his son. Maybe his "happily ever after" wasn't all that happy, and they were divorced? (Otherwise, I would wonder that Sam wouldn't want to spend eternity with her rather than Dean.)

In the end, it was so depressing and isolated to me. Not even name drops. Why have all the Eileen stuff if we don't even know if she is back? We don't know the fate of Charlie and her girlfriend. And Sam looked so defeated in that montage. He doesn't die surrounded by friends and family. He dies with one family member and pictures of the dead.

On 11/20/2020 at 1:38 AM, Slovenly Muse said:

Oh my god, you guys, I just realized! With heaven's walls all torn down, Sam's finally getting reunited with everyone he's ever slept with! I wonder if they formed a club up there. The "Sam Winchester's penis got me killed" weekly garden party!

This is the quality content I need.

Maybe the reason Sam's spouse was a vague outline was because he did witchy things to make her invisible to anyone so she didn't get struck by the penis curse.

On 11/20/2020 at 9:56 AM, Dobian said:

Two theories on Sam's wife at the end.

It was Eileen, and the actress wasn't available. I find this implausible since she was there about three episodes from the end. She also would have been clearly shown in that family portrait if it was her but the actress wasn't available.

It was someone else. We know that Billie was going to kill everyone who was supposed to be dead. Eileen was supposed to be dead. It turned out that God killed literally everybody, but when Jack brought people back I suspect that everyone who was supposed to be dead stayed dead.

Here is the thing. They could have EASILY shown it to be Eileen by having them sign something to her. That's all it would have taken to at least make that storyline relevant. So the writers decided that it didn't matter, which again leads to the feeling that nobody mattered outside of Sam and Dean, which I hate.

On 11/20/2020 at 11:25 AM, BabySpinach said:

See, that was my exact problem with it. Dean only ever saw this ending for himself because he had such low self-worth and felt that a bloody end was all he deserved. But we saw that change in 15.19 as he openly acknowledged for the first time that he was more than just a killer. Yet his death in this episode, right after their victory over God, implies that his first belief was the correct one, that he really was only good for dying young on the job. And that's depressing as hell because it renders any of his progression toward a healthier self-regard utterly moot. He was enjoying life and freedom, he had a new dog, he was still saving people, and he deserved many more years of that.

This. He deserved happiness. Killing him so soon after everything was narrative unsatisfying. He wanted free will. Then he never gets to explore it.

On 11/20/2020 at 12:07 PM, Myrelle said:

And again, the original came out on top for me, and that even with Ben not being Dean's biological child. In fact, I think by giving Sam an actual biological child, they showed us that there had to have been some moments when Sam had truly and genuinely moved on and experienced real joy and happiness with Dean gone from his life-and not just because Dean wanted that for Sam, but because Sam wanted it for himself, too.

As a mother by adoption and embryo donation/adoption, I can assure you that biology is not required for moments of true happiness or a real and meaningful parent-child relationship.

On 11/20/2020 at 9:58 PM, tessathereaper said:

I agree, I don't see Dean having peace. Heaven has no growth, no change. Sure the walls are down, you can see people but its not a place of LIVING, not really, it's still a place of memory. Dean got there, and because he was no allowed to enjoy his freedom and create his own new life, he literally has nothing do but wait for Sam to show up. He only has the past and nothing more. Dean did not get peace, he got stagnation. He never got to live life or enjoy his freedom.

That thing on the desk, was apparently a job application so anyone who thinks Dean had no plans and no hopes for the future is wrong, I don't see it as a win that a character who believed he was worthless and was going to die and just had to make sure his brother was safe, was shown that is all he was good for, because he never got to enjoy any of the life he fought for and he got to go to heaven and wait while Sam got to live. I'm not particularly interested in the "its like real life", this is a fictional story and lots of things that happen in real life are not at all satisfying as stories if they are told exactly as they happen. That's one of the reasons why even "true stories" get tweaked a bit because hey it may be life, but really kind of sucks as part of a story.

Why even have the employment contract? That detail is so cruel.

You have this character development where Dean says: hey, I don’t have to be what Dad made me. I can do more than kill things. I am loved.

And then you kill him on a hunt his father started and send him to a heaven where he is almost entirely alone.

On 11/21/2020 at 3:50 PM, Bobcatkitten said:

I'm glad they changed heaven but I absolutely would have hated John welcoming them. They sanitized that character enough in Lebanon. He was a horrible father. Bobby was there for him way more and it was perfect for him to welcome him.

Oh yeah. Congrats. You get to spend eternity with the man who abused and neglected you would have been worse for me.

On 11/21/2020 at 4:20 PM, McKinley said:

Well, I feel like these final episodes encapsulated all that was best, and worst, about Supernatural. Seems fair enough.

I am really, really glad that they fixed heaven. I was prepared to be super upset if they did not do that. Having Cass in charge there is perfection.

Did not like the ending, though. My personal ending for the boys is this: I can stay with the writers' vision up through Jack taking over as god, and fixing heaven. Jack seals heaven and hell so demons and angels may no longer come to Earth. Jack wipes out all of the monsters on Earth. So the boys have literally saved the entire world, forever. The boys are then free to move on with "normal" lives, explore new jobs, new passions, build families. Given how male-centric this whole universe has been, I imagine Dean raising a whole gaggle of beautiful little daughters. The boys grow old together, enjoying one another's families. The end.

Thank you to the cast and crew for the ride! It's been fun!

Yeah, Jack becomes God but allows monsters free reign to kill parents and kidnap kids. He saves Cas but doesn't even leave them a voicemail, send a carrier pigeon, etc.

I have taken days to even come post because I get upset every time I think about it. I was left asking what was the point? Why have Cas confess his feelings then barely deal with it? Why are we supposed to find this death satisfying when they have undone so many? What was the point of the Kevin stuff? Is he still wandering the earth?

But mostly, you have Dean who survived trauma and who has believed for years his only value is as a sacrifice for others. He believes he is good at killing and that's it. We have watched him throw himself into the hunt time and time again when he is depressed, just waiting for the end. He has said over and over this only ends one way. Then we see something fundamental in him change. He wants to live. He wants to be free. He wants to explore what happens now that he isn't being controlled by Chuck.

And then he is immediately killed in an arbitrary way. And there is no payoff. Instead he is back where he started. Alone except for his brother and his car. His entire family and all of his friends unmentioned and barely acknowledged.

I get it. COVID. But you couldn't have a montage of him doing things? Talking to vague outlines of people like Sam's wife that are implied to be his friends and family?

And as I said previously, I wasn't a Destiel fan. I have only watched the show for the last year and I didn't ship them. But to go there and barely address it (and to have Dean basically shrug at the beginning of the episode). That was terrible. And it does ultimately make Castiel's story deeply unsatisfying to me. And it does make me as angry as when they killed Charlie and threw her in a bathtub. I won't go into a long rant about it, because I am just exhausted by the whole thing. But I am tired of dead gay characters. I am tired of women being killed to make the men feel something like they are props (Eileen). I am tired of stories that say the best deeply traumatized people can hope for is a good death.

Anyway, thanks for sticking with me over the last year. As unsatisfied as I am with the ending, I enjoyed the ride. This show was there for me in the middle of the night with my baby. It made me laugh and cry. I ended up really loving these characters and all the amazing passionate fans. Thanks for welcoming me with open arms so late in the game.

Binns · November 23, 2020

Not sure how kosher it is to post stuff from cons that were 1:1 or meet and greets? But someone asked JP about his relationship and he said it was purposefully left vague who Sam’s “partner/co-parent” was which I found interesting. He didn’t specify wife or mother.

gonzosgirrl · November 23, 2020

That's great for fanfic and headcanons, but a liitle too much retcon for the actual show.

Bergamot · November 23, 2020

15 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

@Lemuria I like your take. I have to find a way to make peace with this episode and you make a good case.

Yes, thank you @Lemuria! I especially appreciate your look at the fight in the barn. I had not looked at it closely, and what you say makes sense.

15 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I will say that I was not happy that Sam did not say something back to Dean on that at the funeral. I didn't expect him to do it in the warehouse--he was falling apart--but I did expect to hear something from him at the funeral. That was a disappointment for me both for the episode and for the character of Sam.

I did not even think of this but you're right. If he couldn't do it in the barn, Sam could have said something then. Remember at the beginning of Season 13, when Sam and Dean and Jack are standing at the funeral pyre of Castiel and Kelly? When Sam asks Jack if he wants to say something, and Jack asks what he should say, Sam says, "Thank you. You say thank you. And you say you're sorry.....You say goodbye." Something needed to be said.

15 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Was I happy with Dabb cutting Dean's post-Chuck time so short? Hell, no. Dean deserved way more than that. For me, the finale was Dabb showing just how small and petty he is. He's been giving an indication that he was going for a scorched earth approach intended to make it impossible for anyone to add or change or do anything to the finale. Including fans: he was taking away the "future" of the characters for fans to fantasize or write into. I'd always wanted, whenever it was that the show ended, to be able to think of Dean as still driving Baby and fighting the good fight.

That's what I had always wanted too. Dabb seemed to be operating under the delusion that the show and its characters belonged only to him. He was wrong.

15 hours ago, Lemuria said:

Dabb, IMO, didn't just take this from Dean. Yes, Sam had a family but that was it. He seemed happy in a small way but the scene with Baby showed that he never really got over Dean's death. I don't believe he hunted: He left the bunker and did not move into Bobby's place--two big repositories of lore and research. If he intended to hunt, that would be an almost a suicidal thing to do. The tattoo could mean that Dean's namesake did intend to hunt (I'm assuming Sam told him about it all) but it could also be Sam not making the same mistake he made back at Stanford and this time, protecting his family from the things that go bump in the night.

In Jared's virtual Creation panel yesterday, he seemed pretty clear about the fact that Sam did not hunt after Dean's death. He said that the understanding for all of them, all the family and friends that they fought alongside, was that afterwards, whoever survived would live as normal a life as possible. He thinks that if Dean somehow returned after 20 years and Sam was hunting, that Dean would be pissed, and that Sam wanted to live his life in a way that would honor Dean. Someone asked if Sam told his son about hunting, and Jared said yes, that he told him about hunting and about his Uncle Dean, and that's why his son wanted to get the tattoo.

15 hours ago, Lemuria said:

In terms of Heaven, I like to think that Dean will shake things up a little. You know, "human disorder incarnate." And I also went back and checked and I don't think that Jack ever indicated that he'd sealed Heaven or Hell off. A coup in Hell that ends with demons invading Midgard again might need some experienced heavenly fighters. So I'll run with that!

Works for me! After all, Jack did indicate that he was going to be hands-off, and people might need saving! I also was thinking what if Sam's son was in danger and needed their help. I actually like the idea of him getting an opportunity to know his Uncle Dean. Because Dean would have been an awesome uncle, no doubt about it!

Binns · November 23, 2020

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That's great for fanfic and headcanons, but a liitle too much retcon for the actual show.

Hasn’t JP always said he thought Sam could easily be bi? Maybe I’m making that up. I was more interested that it was not definitely Eileen. That made me a little sad...does it mean she didn’t come back?

Binns · November 23, 2020

5 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

In Jared's virtual Creation panel yesterday, he seemed pretty clear about the fact that Sam did not hunt after Dean's death. He said that the understanding for all of them, all the family and friends that they fought alongside, was that afterwards, whoever survived would live as normal a life as possible. He thinks that if Dean somehow returned after 20 years and Sam was hunting, that Dean would be pissed, and that Sam wanted to live his life in a way that would honor Dean. Someone asked if Sam told his son about hunting, and Jared said yes, that he told him about hunting and about his Uncle Dean, and that's why his son wanted to get the tattoo.

My thought was that Sam went on that last hunt in Austin...the werewolves...and realized he couldn’t keep doing it. Or maybe he passed that hunt off to the Waywards. I loved that he said that Sam knew Dean would be pissed if Sam kept hunting after his death.

re the funeral and lack of speech...it was a montage, not much spoken except a couple words to Miracle in the bunker and the convo on the phone. So I guess a choice, but not a good one and OOC for Sam. Thinking to Cas and Charlie, etc. I’m wondering if Sam was so shut down that he couldn’t get out the words, much less tell anyone else to come.

the pandemic has really fucked me up about this because all I can think about is how much MORE we could have had. Then I end up thinking...well, it’s still Dabb, so it still might have been just as sparse and depressing. Actors oh Twitter are saying they were not contacted (pre shutdown) about the heaven scene. And saying they would have been willing to quarantine for one scene. Some of them live in Canada. Frustrating. I guess we’ll never really know unless JP keeps spilling the beans.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Binns
Another thought

The Companion · November 23, 2020

8 minutes ago, Binns said:

My thought was that Sam went on that last hunt in Austin...the werewolves...and realized he couldn’t keep doing it. Or maybe he passed that hunt off to the Waywards. I loved that he said that Sam knew Dean would be pissed if Sam kept hunting after his death.

re the funeral and lack of speech...it was a montage, not much spoken except a couple words to Miracle in the bunker and the convo on the phone. So I guess a choice, but not a good one and OOC for Sam. Thinking to Cas and Charlie, etc. I’m wondering if Sam was so shut down that he couldn’t get out the words, much less tell anyone else to come.

the pandemic has really fucked me up about this because all I can think about is how much MORE we could have had. Then I end up thinking...well, it’s still Dabb, so it still might have been just as sparse and depressing. Actors oh Twitter are saying they were not contacted (pre shutdown) about the heaven scene. And saying they would have been willing to quarantine for one scene. Some of them live in Canada. Frustrating. I guess we’ll never really know unless JP keeps spilling the beans.

JP is probably pretty locked down with his employment contract. JA and MC are bound by CNDAs, so I suspect the story of the original finale plan won't be out completely until those expire unless the CW feels it can mitigate the backlash somehow.

I feel like there were still ways to integrate the other characters. Ignored texts because he was depressed would have been a great way to deal with it. You could have seen the family rallying around him. It would have made things so much less depressing to have a reminder that both were loved.

I would have been better with (but still mad) a scene of him surrounded by earthside friends cut with a scene of Dean being greeted by friends in heaven. Then he gets in a car and you can end the same way. But I am not sure it was COVID that stopped that. Because I think there were ways to still get that across conceptually. I mean, it felt emptier than the episode where the entire Earth was empty.

28 minutes ago, Binns said:

Not sure how kosher it is to post stuff from cons that were 1:1 or meet and greets? But someone asked JP about his relationship and he said it was purposefully left vague who Sam’s “partner/co-parent” was which I found interesting. He didn’t specify wife or mother.

Hey, the writers had a chance to make it Eileen. If JP wants to leave it open for interpretation, I am actually good with that. It's a fairly mild recon compared to like half the show. 😆

Aeryn13 · November 23, 2020

I think the underlying notion of this Finale really bothers me more and more.

Whenever Dean expressed that only an early end was in the cards for him but that Sam should have a good life that wasn't an expression of great mental health. And yet this was his end and he is seemingly "happy" about it. So the best cure for depression/hopelessness/feeling unworthy/extreme lack of self worth is...early death. (With implied "better" next life).

Edited November 23, 2020 by Aeryn13

The Companion · November 23, 2020

20 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think the underlying notion of this Finale really bothers me more and more.

Whenever Dean expressed that only an early end was in the cards for him but that Sam should have a good life that wasn't an expression of great mental health. And yet this was his end and he is seemingly "happy" about it. So the best cure for depression/hopelessness/feeling unworthy/extreme lack of self worth is...early death. (With implied "better" next life).

This. It's a combination of "they will be better off without me" and "I am better off dead."

Binns · November 23, 2020

23 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think the underlying notion of this Finale really bothers me more and more.

Whenever Dean expressed that only an early end was in the cards for him but that Sam should have a good life that wasn't an expression of great mental health. And yet this was his end and he is seemingly "happy" about it. So the best cure for depression/hopelessness/feeling unworthy/extreme lack of self worth is...early death. (With implied "better" next life).

I feel like that’s kind of in character for Dean unfortunately. His growth was really hampered by Dabb.

Aeryn13 · November 23, 2020

7 minutes ago, Binns said:

I feel like that’s kind of in character for Dean unfortunately. His growth was really hampered by Dabb.

This is not about what's in character, it's about the narrative itself romanticising and validating the notion that if you are too broken of a person (however arbitrarily that is judged), you truly are better off dead.

That would be like a therapist assessing a patient and then either take them on or direct them to the nearest convenient high bridge. And that is supposed to be a good thing.

Bergamot · November 23, 2020

16 minutes ago, Binns said:

I feel like that’s kind of in character for Dean unfortunately.

I don't think he was "happy" about it. More like resigned to the idea that this would be his end. Like he said to Veritas, "It's the gig.....You're covered in blood until you're covered in your own blood. Half the time, you're about to die." That's what it was like being a hunter.

I don't know that he felt he deserved to end like this. On the one hand, I don't think he ever got over what happened when he was in Hell. On the other hand, he didn't seem shocked to find himself in Heaven after he died.

Myrelle · November 23, 2020

29 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think the underlying notion of this Finale really bothers me more and more.

Whenever Dean expressed that only an early end was in the cards for him but that Sam should have a good life that wasn't an expression of great mental health. And yet this was his end and he is seemingly "happy" about it. So the best cure for depression/hopelessness/feeling unworthy/extreme lack of self worth is...early death. (With implied "better" next life).

This for me too.

It's a large part of why I can only see Dean as the most tragic fictional hero/character that I've ever encountered.

He will always be the greatest hero I've ever encountered-Dabb could never take that away from Dean for me but only because Jensen Ackles portrayed him-but the dysfunctional attachment these brothers had in life and now even death will never be beautiful or romanticized in any way to me.

No. To me, it will always only be one of the saddest things I've ever encountered in a fictional work-and especially moreso for Dean, as has been usual for me to feel for as long as I've been watching the show, all 15 years.

I'm still not over this finale for Dean and likely never will be-unless Jensen someday fixes it because I'm not sure that I could ever trust anyone else to even make the attempt, at this point.

Binns · November 23, 2020

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

This is not about what's in character, it's about the narrative itself romanticising and validating the notion that if you are too broken of a person (however arbitrarily that is judged), you truly are better off dead.

That would be like a therapist assessing a patient and then either take them on or direct them to the nearest convenient high bridge. And that is supposed to be a good thing.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Dean deserved so much more.

PAForrest · November 23, 2020

1 hour ago, Binns said:

Hasn’t JP always said he thought Sam could easily be bi? Maybe I’m making that up.

Uh, no, never heard that. And did Jared not noticed the rando female behind him on the porch? Sure, she was obviously some extra or somebody they pulled from BTS to stand there in a dress and be blurred out; but while she may have been just some broodmare and not exactly a soulmate love interest, Sam was clearly still hooked up with a female who we assume is little Dean's mother.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Whenever Dean expressed that only an early end was in the cards for him but that Sam should have a good life that wasn't an expression of great mental health. And yet this was his end and he is seemingly "happy" about it. So the best cure for depression/hopelessness/feeling unworthy/extreme lack of self worth is...early death. (With implied "better" next life).

But Dean isn't seemingly happy at all. He's clearly not even happy when he arrives in bleak boring heaven. That's what I do not get about fans who legit think Dean dying horribly and scared, too young, and very clearly not at all ready, is all Dean wants. Seriously, WTF that anyone could think that way, especially on the heels of last week's episode that these same fans seemed to love where it was all the guys being free to live their lives, and very obviously being happy about that - including if not ESPECIALLY Dean. What show are you watching?

Then we open up on this episode with Dean having adopted a dog, apparently applying for a job, being thrilled to find a pie festival, etc. Where the hell does a person come up with Dean's horrific death in this episode, so soon after feeling truly free, being anything Dean wanted for himself, or that a fan would want for him? That's disturbing to me.

Dean's end is a tragedy. And frankly so is Sam's clearly tunnel-visioned unhappy long life. And ending a 15-year beloved series about always fighting the good fight on a bleak tragic note was a calculated error of epic proportions.

Did we get stellar performances out of it - yes, of course. But it's a tragedy - and tragedy for most people isn't a fun uplifting story.

At this point I am hoping Jensen is serious about a 6-episode fix-it. I don't care when it happens, but if it happens, I'll be there for it with bells on. And if it's cold, I'll wear something warmer.

Edited November 23, 2020 by PAForrest

Binns · November 23, 2020

1 minute ago, PAForrest said:

.

Dean's end is a tragedy. And frankly so is Sam's clearly tunnel-visioned unhappy long life. And ending a 15-year beloved series about always fighting the good fight on a bleak tragic note was a calculated error of epic proportions.

Did we get stellar performances out of it - yes, of course. But it's a tragedy - and tragedy for most people isn't a fun uplifting story.

Makes me wonder how much worse Kripke’s end would have been. He says it would have been much darker.

gonzosgirrl · November 23, 2020

26 minutes ago, Binns said:

I feel like that’s kind of in character for Dean unfortunately. His growth was really hampered by Dabb.

It's really not. As recently as last episode Dean showed that he'd moved past a lot of his self worth issues. Badd having him boost Sam with his dying breaths was in character for Badd, not Dean. But even so, his words to Sam were for Sam's sake, being his big brother to the end. No matter how much Dean has grown, talking about himself and his worth at the end would not be in his nature.

I personally didn't take his acceptance of death as what he felt was his due. But he always knew it was a possibility, every time they hunted. The likely end for someone like him. If 'better off dead' was the intended message it was lost on me.

Katy M · November 23, 2020

1 hour ago, Binns said:

Hasn’t JP always said he thought Sam could easily be bi? Maybe I’m making that up. I was more interested that it was not definitely Eileen. That made me a little sad...does it mean she didn’t come back?

In my head, it's Eileen. I don't care what anybody on the show says. If we want to go totally rando, it's the hooker from The Third Man. She did tell him to call her on her day off.

Aeryn13 · November 23, 2020

24 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

This for me too.

It's a large part of why I can only see Dean as the most tragic fictional hero/character that I've ever encountered.

He will always be the greatest hero I've ever encountered-Dabb could never take that away from Dean for me but only because Jensen Ackles portrayed him-but the dysfunctional attachment these brothers had in life and now even death will never be beautiful or romanticized in any way to me.

No. To me, it will always only be one of the saddest things I've ever encountered in a fictional work-and especially moreso for Dean, as has been usual for me to feel for as long as I've been watching the show, all 15 years.

I'm still not over this finale for Dean and likely never will be-unless Jensen someday fixes it because I'm not sure that I could ever trust anyone else to even make the attempt, at this point.

I don`t think Dean wanted it so much but the episode played it like "isn`t that the bestest happy ending ever for him, yay". I mean, I also didn`t get bursting with joy from him when he died in some rando barn a week or so after being free but apparently yay?

He got exactly the ending he predicted in Season 8 in that stupid Trials and Error episode. Only back then it was framed like he was in a totally wrong, suicidal mindframe so that`s why Sam took the trials. Now they have taken that and turned it on its head by retroactively going "yay, he was right all along, happiest prediction ever".

The Companion · November 23, 2020

18 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Uh, no, never heard that. And did Jared not noticed the rando female behind him on the porch? Sure, she was obviously some extra or somebody they pulled from BTS to stand there in a dress and be blurred out; but while she may have been just some broodmare and not exactly a soulmate love interest, Sam was clearly still hooked up with a female who we assume is little Dean's mother.

But Dean isn't seemingly happy at all. He's clearly not even happy when he arrives in bleak boring heaven. That's what I do not get about fans who legit think Dean dying horribly and scared, too young, and very clearly not at all ready, is all Dean wants. Seriously, WTF that anyone could think that way, especially on the heels of last week's episode that these same fans seemed to love where it was all the guys being free to live their lives, and very obviously being happy about that - including if not ESPECIALLY Dean. What show are you watching?

Then we open up on this episode with Dean having adopted a dog, apparently applying for a job, being thrilled to find a pie festival, etc. Where the hell does a person come up with Dean's horrific death in this episode, so soon after feeling truly free, being anything Dean wanted for himself, or that a fan would want for him? That's disturbing to me.

Dean's end is a tragedy. And frankly so is Sam's clearly tunnel-visioned unhappy long life. And ending a 15-year beloved series about always fighting the good fight on a bleak tragic note was a calculated error of epic proportions.

Did we get stellar performances out of it - yes, of course. But it's a tragedy - and tragedy for most people isn't a fun uplifting story.

At this point I am hoping Jensen is serious about a 6-episode fix-it. I don't care when it happens, but if it happens, I'll be there for it with bells on. And if it's cold, I'll wear something warmer.

Y'all are making me feel so much better because this is exactly it. He got free will and was exploring what that meant and then was unceremoniously killed. That is not a poetic ending or a satisfying one.

Meanwhile Sam "carries on" I suppose, but he doesn't seem to have a particularly happy life. And in the end, he is surrounded not by the life he builds, but by the people who died before him. His spouse is nowhere to be found. Not at his bedside or on the walls behind him. His son is the only one attending to him even though he is clearly at end of life.

Tragedy has its place, but even then people typically want it to be part of a satisfactory arc. The story has to make sense narratively. Here, the story is: oh you finally had the chance to make like on your own terms? Boom, you lost it. When you are telling a story, if you want it to be a worthwhile one, there should be payoff on the elements that you set up previously. The ending here took a u-turn and threw out a ton of character development in the process.

I had heard in the past that Sam had speculated that Sam could be bi in prior panels, so I don't think its a new concept being offered here. I think it's something he has previously considered.

ILoveReading · November 23, 2020

3 minutes ago, The Companion said:

I had heard in the past that Sam had speculated that Sam could be bi in prior panels, so I don't think its a new concept being offered here. I think it's something he has previously considered.

IIRC, he never said that Sam was bi but that he'd be okay playing him that way if the writers decided to go in that direction.

Binns · November 23, 2020

23 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Y'all are making me feel so much better because this is exactly it. He got free will and was exploring what that meant and then was unceremoniously killed. That is not a poetic ending or a satisfying one.

Meanwhile Sam "carries on" I suppose, but he doesn't seem to have a particularly happy life. And in the end, he is surrounded not by the life he builds, but by the people who died before him. His spouse is nowhere to be found. Not at his bedside or on the walls behind him. His son is the only one attending to him even though he is clearly at end of life.

Both boys deserve a lot of credit for making silk out of sow’s ears and showing us that this wasn’t really a happy ending, except for them finding each other in heaven. I don’t really get the sense they were trying to show Dean was happy with what was happening like some have said. I feel like it was pretty clear that this was a terrible tragedy. And Sam...Sam tried hard but I agree he struggled the rest of his life, actively mourning.

I go back to Zachariah...they were “psychotically, irrationally, erotically codependent on each other” and I know they both tried to grow past that but I think it remained mostly true. One of the reasons I hate the destruction of the Chuck character is they are saying that he “wrote” them that way and that they were never going to get past that until Chuck was off the table. I hate the whole thought of their lives being manipulated that way and I am probably going to pretend that never happened.

I don’t know, I guess I see things differently than others (which is fine!) in that I don’t mind the codependency so much because it makes so much sense to me considering their childhood. It’s hard to escape trauma like that and it’s not like either of them were going to seek out intensive therapy to get past it. So I don’t really have to like it but it makes sense to me. I wonder if even with Chuck’s manipulation gone whether they would have been able to live separate healthy lives after 40-odd years (at least on Earth) of being in each other’s pockets.

tessathereaper · November 23, 2020

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think the underlying notion of this Finale really bothers me more and more.

Whenever Dean expressed that only an early end was in the cards for him but that Sam should have a good life that wasn't an expression of great mental health. And yet this was his end and he is seemingly "happy" about it. So the best cure for depression/hopelessness/feeling unworthy/extreme lack of self worth is...early death. (With implied "better" next life).

It's really disturbing. I'm really not one who thinks stories need to impart lessons and that they can JUST be stories without anything deeper behind them. But even on a purely fictional level, we've followed Dean for 15 years through all of this, so it just feels, and IS, so damn wrong IMO.

It's almost presented like it's something we should feel is RIGHT, IMO. Sure Sam is upset because it's his brother but it's like we're supposed to feel like this was just what Dean needed, rather than be angered and upset by how NOT right it was, not the right time, not the right way, not right for who Dean was now. Like we shouldn't feel it was brutally unfair, we should feel like it was some sort of reward. And it just isn't.

Bergamot · November 23, 2020

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think Dean wanted it so much but the episode played it like "isn`t that the bestest happy ending ever for him, yay".

It is hard for me to think about this because there are different layers that I have trouble keeping separated.

One layer is what Dean felt about his fate. I think that because he had been hunting and putting his life at risk on a daily basis almost his entire life, he had always expected that this would be his end, and although he didn't want to die, he accepted that his time had come. Which is not the same thing as wanting it to happen; he did not want this to be "the day".

For me this is separate from whether or not Dean felt he deserved to die like this. He was definitely damaged by the life he had led and the things that had happened to him, but I also think that we had seen him reject the idea that he was nothing more than a blunt instrument or a killer. Although I agree that he still really could have used some intensive therapy for his issues, I think he believed it when he ultimately told Chuck, "That's not who I am."

On another layer is what the episode was saying. I don't know that the episode was necessarily saying that this was the bestest happiest ending ever for Dean; it was acknowledged that this was a sad thing. But Dabb, in the way that the episode was written, completely ignored how horribly and monstrously unfair and awful what happened to Dean was. (I feel like I need a stronger word than unfair.) And the episode did seem to be saying yes, this is sad, but hey, it is kind of lovely and poetic, isn't it?

And then there is one more layer, which is the viewers. And I do think that there is a subset of fans (not anyone here) who absolutely are saying "isn`t that the bestest happy ending ever for him, yay". Not necessarily because they think Dean is better off dead or he is too broken to live, but because of what Aeryn and Tessa mentioned, the romanticizing of the idea that it is so beautiful to see Dean die and go to Heaven and wait there for his brother to come join him, because that is Dean's perfect destiny.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Bergamot

ahrtee · November 23, 2020

It took me a while to process the episode beyond my first impressions (I had other things on my mind this weekend).

The conclusion I came to was what bothered me the most wasn't just the pointlessness of Dean's death, or the idiocy of the actual hunt, which literally made no sense, or whether or not it was (or was supposed to be) a "happy ending." All that's been covered very thoroughly and in very-well-thought out posts by others above.

It's that it was bad writing, period. You'd think for the finale of 15 years of devoted fans, solid characters, and (mostly) good stories that the ending would go out strong, not peter out into nothing. And it has nothing to do with the actual endings for the characters, but more with *how* the show was written.

It's the pacing. I had no real problem with Dean's death scene. I had no real problem with the ideas behind the story: they went on a hunt, Dean was mortally wounded, his last thoughts were to comfort his brother and tell him to "carry on," and then they meet again in heaven. That's as basic as you can get.

But when you've got the heart-wringing scene of one of the two leads getting killed, whether pointlessly or being the BDH, you play it up. You don't stick it in the middle of the episode as an side note and then go on without him for another half hour.

Death scenes of a main character are the big climactic moments of any show. That's why they're traditionally at the end, even if there's a coda showing "life goes on." Every other time any major character has died--from John or Bobby to Kevin or Charlie or Rowena (aside from Mystery Spot, anyway), it's been as the climax, even if someone gets to mourn or soliloquize for a few minutes or they show the hunter's funeral.

To make the violent, wrenching and unexpected death just another plot device in passing, and give the final end scene to dying peacefully in bed is *not* the way to grab an audience and make them remember the show.

I'll assume there was supposed to be more with Dean after his death scene--more people greeting him in heaven, showing him at peace, at least. But they had, what, 4 months to rewrite during the lockdown?

They should have fixed the pacing. Given more attention to the pre-story. Let the viewers find out what they were planning to do. We could even see hints if Dean was getting bored or Sam was looking into schools, to make the ending either more poignant or more organic.

Move Dean's death scene to the last quarter hour, and play up the drama. Give Sam some final words to his brother. And then they could cut all the long-drawn-out Poor Sam scenes into one short montage: maybe showing him getting older incrementally. Showing him hunting or hanging out with friends. Or not settling down. Think the opening montage of Exile on Main Street. It could have been done much more effectively, and in a lot less time. They could even intercut Sam's growing older with Dean in heaven, doing things that he enjoyed, even if they couldn't get all the people to greet him. And then the final scene would be the same.

Different focus. Different impact. That's Writing 101, and our writers have failed even that. And that's left a bad taste in my mouth for the whole show.

Aeryn13 · November 23, 2020

15 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

And then there is one more layer, which is the viewers. And I do think that there is a subset of fans (not anyone here) who absolutely are saying "isn`t that the bestest happy ending ever for him, yay". Not necessarily because they think Dean is better off dead or he is too broken to live, but because of what Aeryn and Tessa mentioned, the romanticizing of the idea that it is so beautiful to see Dean die and go to Heaven and wait there for his brother to come join him, because that is Dean's perfect destiny.

I agree with that, especially the last part. I mean all Season they fought against Chuck writing their destiny for them. Which, lest we forget his dream ending was that one died.

But once that is out of the way because it was bad, the bestest thing is...drumroll...a scenario where Dean dies early and waits around for Sam. Because that was somehow destined.

Why the hell didn't we just stay with Chuck then? At least his scenarios were better than "Colonel Rando Rebar in a barn did it".

If the outcome is the same, then stay with the epic scenario at least.

tessathereaper · November 23, 2020

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I agree with that, especially the last part. I mean all Season they fought against Chuck writing their destiny for them. Which, lest we forget his dream ending was that one died.

But once that is out of the way because it was bad, the bestest thing is...drumroll...a scenario where Dean dies early and waits around for Sam. Because that was somehow destined.

Why the hell didn't we just stay with Chuck then? At least his scenarios were better than "Colonel Rando Rebar in a barn did it".

If the outcome is the same, then stay with the epic scenario at least.

I still cannot accept that whole "they were only great hunters because...Chuck". That needs to be retconned as much as Dean's death.

Binns · November 23, 2020

32 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I still cannot accept that whole "they were only great hunters because...Chuck". That needs to be retconned as much as Dean's death.

This is why I am pretty sure I’m going to eliminate season 15 from canon for myself. I refuse to accept that narrative.

tennisgurl · November 23, 2020

Honestly, I am still working out all of my post finale thoughts, it really feels like the episode before this one was the actual finale, and this was more like the epilogue. The story itself basically ended with Chuck defeated, Gack becoming the new God, and Sam and Dean driving into the sunset, free of the manipulations of gods and demons, to a montage of the shows history and its billions and billions of characters.

Epilogues in general can be rather hit or miss, they usually exist to give characters and the audience closure, often to show the characters getting some kind of happy ending in the future, often the distant future, but if the audience doesn't like the ending that they give the characters or feel like it ties too much up into a little bow to finish everything up quickly, they can get annoyed by having the whole story closed up in a way they find unsatisfactory or too lazy. Or, on the other side, they can find epilogues too rushed, where we don't get closure for anyone but the main characters and too many plot threads dangling, and the audience can leave the show feeling like too much was forgotten. With this episode, we kind of get both, where we find out what happens to Sam and Dean to the end of their lives, while leaving a lot open for what happens in the world run by Gack and to most of the supporting characters. So whether or not you like this episode probably depends on how you like your epilogues, or how you think it did as an epilogue.

Emma9 · November 23, 2020

2 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Like we shouldn't feel it was brutally unfair, we should feel like it was some sort of reward. And it just isn't.

This. I would have actually been more okay with an openly depressing/horrifying finale than what we got with the narrative pushing it as 'happily ever after'.

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S15.E20: Carry On (Series Finale)

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