S15.E18: Despair

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Terese said:

hanks for saying that. I wondered about the expression on Dean's face; disbelief mingled with a tad of revulsion. Both Dean and Jensen must be horrified.

Even if Jensen didn't like it or didn't know about until he got the script, I saw no revulsion in Jensen's performance. I saw Dean being completely thrown for a loop and blindsided on several levels between realizing Cas is gonna die for him, and processing a declaration of love and a lot  of praise from Cas towards him, which rarely happens. he barely had anytime to deal with any of it.

And at the end, he was crying. It was a lot for Dean to absorb in like 5 minutes.

[Res]

19 minutes ago, Terese said:

Thanks for saying that. I wondered about the expression on Dean's face; disbelief mingled with a tad of revulsion. Both Dean and Jensen must be horrified.

I didn't see any revulsion, just shock and dread over his friend's impending sacrifice.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

My comment didn't say that it was putting all on Misha but I stand behind my opinion that he's not helping at all.

I think he's in a tough spot, just like Jensen.  If he's being asked about it and he's been told by the writers, that yes Cas is in love with Dean, how can he say that's not the intention? Similarly, if Jensen is being told that Dean is not in love with Cas, and he answers that honestly, then it's in conflict but that's again not on Jensen. The questions need to be addressed to the writers not the actors.

[Terese]

Just now, Res said:

I didn't see any revulsion, just shock and dread over his friend's impending sacrifice.

I will admit the revulsion is added upon rewatch after the Grear Debate.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

He also said some things that will certainly bring more hate onto Jensen. He didn`t need to do that. Instead he could have used that platform to actually stand up for his friend. Not a word. 

What other things has he said? I believe you, just wondering what. Can you link me?

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think he's in a tough spot, just like Jensen.  If he's being asked about it and he's been told by the writers, that yes Cas is in love with Dean, how can he say that's not the intention? Similarly, if Jensen is being told that Dean is not in love with Cas, and he answers that honestly, then it's in conflict but that's again not on Jensen. The questions need to be addressed to the writers not the actors.

Perhaps.

Edited November 8, 2020 by DeeDee79

[Aeryn13]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

What other things has he said? I believe you, just wondering what. Can you link me?

Apparently that he/they were worried over Jensen's reaction and if he would nix the scene. Sorry, but after the last few days of really horrible trashing of Jensen, that is as good as taping bloody meat to him and throwing him to the sharks.

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

Apparently that he/they were worried over Jensen's reaction and if he would nix the scene. Sorry, but after the last few days of really horrible trashing of Jensen, that is as good as taping bloody meat to him and throwing him to the sharks.

Again, I totally agree.

[Casseiopeia]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I think he's in a tough spot, just like Jensen.  If he's being asked about it and he's been told by the writers, that yes Cas is in love with Dean, how can he say that's not the intention? Similarly, if Jensen is being told that Dean is not in love with Cas, and he answers that honestly, then it's in conflict but that's again not on Jensen. The questions need to be addressed to the writers not the actors.

Unfortunately the writers don't put themselves out there very much.  Berens might (he has the luxury of not answering tweets if he chooses) but it's at conventions when Jensen is caught between a rock and hard place. Misha's panels are on Sat and Jensen usually has to answer for the Destiel shenanigans that happen in that panel. Fans aren't supposed to ask those kind of questions of J2 but they do anyway.  Jensen is going to have to answer for that scene at every convention from here on out.  Jensen is demonized no matter what he says.  

No matter how you look at it that scene has defined the series historically.

[starfishka]

It doesn't make sense to me to pitch a scene to one actor who is in that scene but not the other one, then (still without telling him) write the script if the actor who doesn´t know what the scene is about has (allegedly) veto power.  I personally think Jensen had no problem with the scene and his acting was amazing.

Edited November 9, 2020 by starfishka

[tessathereaper]

52 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I fully believe that Berens did tell him.

I don't see it that Misha is trolling or being media whore in this case, necessarily. Since I don't know the full context without seeing the panel, I can believe that he was being told to play something a certain way from Cas perspective.  Also, given Jensen doesn't read ahead generally, I can see him playing it as shocked and confused as Dean was at the end. Jensen has talked about not wanting to read too far ahead to give the most authentic performance he can.

It doesn't make me upset with Misha, and it doesn't mean Jensen refused to play anything other than what we saw.

They discussed with Misha a year before it, they only discussed with Jensen a couple months before filming.  Meaning Misha was basically lying to him all that time about something central to his character and he clearly doesn't feel remotely guilty about it.  It shows an absolutely MONUMENTAL lack of respect for Jensen and incredible lack of integrity, IMO.   Wow, that's just incredible.  15 years Jensen has devoted to this show and to be treated like that in the final run.  I SO wish Jensen has just straight up quite at the end of Season 14.  But see he IS decent and honorable and would never have wanted to put the crew, the real people who keep the show running and without whom the writers would be standing on street corners on an apple box begging for change, most of them(because god knows these last few seasons have shown them to be terrible writers), out of work suddenly without a decent to chance to find new gigs.

Per the panel Jensen knew 2 or 3 months ahead of time I believe.

Edited November 8, 2020 by tessathereaper

[Myrelle]

20 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

They discussed with Misha a year before it, they only discussed with Jensen a couple months before filming

This is unforgivable and unprofessional of both MC and the writers, IMO.

And then for Misha to let it be known to the lunatic fringe of his fandom AND to state that they were all afraid Jensen would nix it.

Wow. I have no words for that except as has been said already, with "friends" like that, who needs enemies.

And Jensen forming his own production company makes more and more sense with everything that we're hearing of that happened BTS in these last years of the show.

Thank God it's over for him, at this point in time.

As for cons, I'm just going to hope that he'll be too busy working on other projects to be able to attend too many of them.

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And then for Misha to let it be known to the lunatic fringe of his fandom AND to state that they were all afraid Jensen would nix it.

This is the grossest part IMO.

[catrox14]

54 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Apparently that he/they were worried over Jensen's reaction and if he would nix the scene. Sorry, but after the last few days of really horrible trashing of Jensen, that is as good as taping bloody meat to him and throwing him to the sharks.

Ugh. That sucks. I'm quite disappointed.

[Myrelle]

34 minutes ago, starfishka said:

It doesn't make sense to me to pitch a scene to one actor who is in that scene but not the other one, then (still without telling him) write the script if the actor who doesn´t know what the scene is about has (allegedly) veto power.  I personally think Jensen had no problem with the scene and his acting was amazing.

ITA with this.

And even if he did have veto power, it shows a complete lack of trust and faith in Jensen on the part of the writers and his purported "friend",  to be professional about it.

And fuck them all in that case.

I wouldn't want to ever again work with people who felt that way about me, if I were him.

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Meaning Misha was basically lying to him all that time about something central to his character and he clearly doesn't feel remotely guilty about it

I don't understand this. Why does  that mean Misha lying to him? I feel like I'm missing something big here. Not all actors discuss their character's stroylines with other actors that early on.  And maybe he was asked to not discuss it with Jensen. I feel like something doesn't add up meaning why would they be worried about him not going for that particular scene which seemed not that different than other emotional scenes. Are they suggesting that there was more to it, like perhaps a kiss or something? It's all really weird. Did Misha say any of this in jest?

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Terese said:

Thanks for saying that. I wondered about the expression on Dean's face; disbelief mingled with a tad of revulsion. Both Dean and Jensen must be horrified.

To be clear, I don't believe for a second there was any revulsion on Dean's face. There was shock, confusion and despair (when he realized what Castiel was going to do). Dean has never given any hint of revulsion when various males have hit on him over the series. Confusion, yes, and no interest in reciprocating, but not revulsion. That kind of interpretation is what is feeding the sharks.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Apparently that he/they were worried over Jensen's reaction and if he would nix the scene. Sorry, but after the last few days of really horrible trashing of Jensen, that is as good as taping bloody meat to him and throwing him to the sharks.

Okay, I posted before reading the next page. If this is true, the fuck them all. Every one of them, including Misha for putting that out there. He is no better than Badd & Company.

[Terese]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

To be clear, I don't believe for a second there was any revulsion on Dean's face. There was shock, confusion and despair (when he realized what Castiel was going to do). Dean has never given any hint of revulsion when various males have hit on him over the series. Confusion, yes, and no interest in reciprocating, but not revulsion. That kind of interpretation is what is feeding the sharks.

Nonetheless 

[Myrelle]

28 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

To be clear, I don't believe for a second there was any revulsion on Dean's face. There was shock, confusion and despair (when he realized what Castiel was going to do). Dean has never given any hint of revulsion when various males have hit on him over the series. Confusion, yes, and no interest in reciprocating, but not revulsion. That kind of interpretation is what is feeding the sharks.

 

16 minutes ago, Terese said:

Nonetheless 

As has been pointed out, some will see what they want to see, no matter what, which always made this a no-win scenario for Jensen and still he didn't "nix" it-if he even could. 🙄

Imagine that. 🤬

Thank God it's ending. 

He's too good for everything and everyone connected to this shit show, at this point, IMO.

And again I say his own production company makes far more sense now than it ever did before.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Myrelle
Additions

[S Cook Productions]

3 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

If that's how he's presenting himself I say screw being polite.

Where/what is this virtual panel? I’m sure it will annoy me, but I’d be curious to listen to it. 

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

Where/what is this virtual panel? I’m sure it will annoy me, but I’d be curious to listen to it. 

I don't know. I was just reacting to comments from others that have heard the panel.

[Casseiopeia]

[Casseiopeia]

There is a lot more from the panel. It's mostly fans tweeting what was said.  

 

[Macbeth]

I don't know.  I don't think it's fair to blame all of this on Misha.

It looks like Dean willingly participated in Destial.

I don't see why this is a problem.  I don't have a problem with this pairing.

But then no love interest is good enough for Dean.  Anyone that is put up as a Dean love interest is torn to shreds.

Jensen admitted as much at panel.  Fans' reactions is the reason why there were no female hunters (that would be age-appropriate love interests.)  on the show.

Joanie and Donna are fine as they are older.  

This is basically an all male show because of this.  So of course Destial is going to be played as an option.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Macbeth

[SueB]

Apparently Misha was clear that Jensen was totally on board. Read whole thread to see that part. 
 

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by SueB

[Casseiopeia]

8 minutes ago, SueB said:

Apparently Misha was clear that Jensen was totally on board. Read whole thread to see that part. 
 

 

I guess that is why that fight they had at the beginning of the season looked like an old married couple.

[DeeDee79]

35 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I don't know.  I don't think it's fair to blame all of this on Misha.

It looks like Dean willingly participated in Destial.

I don't see why this is a problem.  I don't have a problem with this pairing.

But then no love interest is good enough for Dean.  Anyone that is put up as a Dean love interest is torn to shreds.

Jensen admitted as much at panel.  Fans' reactions is the reason why there were no female hunters (that would be age-appropriate love interests.)  on the show.

Joanie and Donna are fine as they are older.  

This is basically an all male show because of this.  So of course Destial is going to be played as an option.

The problem isn't fans that like this pairing, it's the Jensen bashing for not liking it that is the issue. Also, with Jensen's numerous comments against Destiel I don't think that a couple of photos are concrete evidence that he "willingly" participated in anything. Just my opinion.

Edited November 9, 2020 by DeeDee79

[ahrtee]

30 minutes ago, SueB said:

Apparently Misha was clear that Jensen was totally on board. Read whole thread to see that part. 
 

 

I find it interesting that neither Jared nor Jensen took part in that convention; it was based in France and they decided to go virtual because of Covid.  There were only 7 SPN actors involved, with Misha as the headliner, I guess (and it obviously didn't have a lot of advertising).  I wonder if Misha would have been more circumspect if Jensen were there (or at least participating) and he had to face him and any further questions.  I'm still not convinced that Misha wasn't just trolling.  

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

The problem isn't fans that like this pairing, it's the Jensen bashing for not liking it that is the issue. Also, with Jensen's numerous comments against Destiel I don't think that a couple of photos are concrete evidence that he "willingly" participated in anything. Just my opinion.

Quoting myself to add that Jensen also takes pics of this nature with Jared but I don't see anyone saying that he supports Wincest or Tinhatters.

[Macbeth]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

The problem isn't fans that like this pairing, it's the Jensen bashing for not liking it that is the issue. Also, with Jensen's numerous comments against Destiel I don't think that a couple of photos are concrete evidence that he "willingly" participated in anything. Just my opinion.

I'm not bashing Jensen in this.  Where do you see that I am bashing him?

Believe me there are more than a couple of photos re Destial.  

And it has been stated on this post that Jensen knew and was fine with it.

If he really was against it - it would have ended years ago. Believe me.  He wouldn't play into it.

Of course he will have comments against it  - he doesn't want to upset the female fans.

Jensen is walking a pretty a pretty fine line here.  

  1.  No love interest is good enough for the fans:

  2.  So that defines his character as being a brooding loner;

  3.  The chemistry between Misha and Jensen is off the charts - so why not go with it.  Have some fun.

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I'm not bashing Jensen in this.  Where do you see that I am bashing him?

Believe me there are more than a couple of photos re Destial.  

And it has been stated on this post that Jensen knew and was fine with it.

If he really was against it - it would have ended years ago. Believe me.  He wouldn't play into it.

Of course he will have comments against it  - he doesn't want to upset the female fans.

Jensen is walking a pretty a pretty fine line here.  

  1.  No love interest is good enough for the fans:

  2.  So that defines his character as being a brooding loner;

  3.  The chemistry between Misha and Jensen is off the charts - so why not go with it.  Have some fun.

Where do you see that I said that you're bashing him? I said that the problem with the reactions to the scene was the Jensen bashing that was going on. I never said that you were bashing him. There have been multiple posts here about the bashing that's on SM. Also, I don't agree that he was playing into it if he's been so vehemently against it for years and it's unfair to simplify it as "not wanting to upset the female fans" as if he or his fans are that shallow. 

Edited November 9, 2020 by DeeDee79

[Macbeth]

8 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Quoting myself to add that Jensen also takes pics of this nature with Jared but I don't see anyone saying that he supports Wincest or Tinhatters.

Don't worry DeeDee. I am out of here.

Comparing incest to a gay relationship is very, very problematic for me.

So I will take my gay ass out here.

 

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, Macbeth said:

Don't worry DeeDee. I am out of here.

Comparing incest to a gay relationship is very, very problematic for me.

So I will take my gay ass out here.

 

Wow. I'm really interested in how you came to that conclusion but at this point I don't even care. Think what you want.

Edited November 9, 2020 by DeeDee79

[Terese]

5 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I'm not bashing Jensen in this.  Where do you see that I am bashing him?

Believe me there are more than a couple of photos re Destial.  

And it has been stated on this post that Jensen knew and was fine with it.

If he really was against it - it would have ended years ago. Believe me.  He wouldn't play into it.

Of course he will have comments against it  - he doesn't want to upset the female fans.

Jensen is walking a pretty a pretty fine line here.  

  1.  No love interest is good enough for the fans:

  2.  So that defines his character as being a brooding loner;

  3.  The chemistry between Misha and Jensen is off the charts - so why not go with it.  Have some fun.

You can be against something without throwing a fit, particularly when you know it has no basis in reality. Not throwing a fit is not the equivalent of playing into it.

And what chemistry "is off the charts;" as all the cast has very good chemistry?

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

If he really was against it - it would have ended years ago. Believe me.  He wouldn't play into it.

Of course he will have comments against it  - he doesn't want to upset the female fans.

Why do you think they separated Dean and Cas for so many years and diluted their "profound connection" by putting more emphasis on Sam's relationship with Cas, as well as adding others like Jack and Benny?   Since about season 9, Cas and Dean rarely even had scenes together, much less any deeply emotional ones. 

I'm not saying it was either Jensen or Misha who requested it, but I think TPTB didn't want to play into Destiel (or, more especially, the accusation of "queer baiting" that was going around a while ago) when they didn't intend to consummate that relationship.  I still think the intention was to make it possible enough, but vague enough, that everyone could choose to believe whatever they wanted, not to make an absolute statement.  That's the way they've been playing it for years, and why it's never been written or shown explicitly.

About your second sentence, I think female fans make up a major part of Destiel, so I don't think Jensen would be worried about that.  

2 minutes ago, Terese said:

You can be against something without throwing a fit, particularly when you know it has no basis in reality. Not throwing a fit is not the equivalent of playing into it.

Absolutely.  

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Why do you think they separated Dean and Cas for so many years and diluted their "profound connection" by putting more emphasis on Sam's relationship with Cas, as well as adding others like Jack and Benny?   Since about season 9, Cas and Dean rarely even had scenes together, much less any deeply emotional ones. 

I'm not saying it was either Jensen or Misha who requested it, but I think TPTB didn't want to play into Destiel (or, more especially, the accusation of "queer baiting" that was going around a while ago) when they didn't intend to consummate that relationship.  I still think the intention was to make it possible enough, but vague enough, that everyone could choose to believe whatever they wanted, not to make an absolute statement.  That's the way they've been playing it for years, and why it's never been written or shown explicitly.

About your second sentence, I think female fans make up a major part of Destiel, so I don't think Jensen would be worried about that.  

Absolutely.  

Perfectly stated!

[Terese]

Fifteen years of Sam and Dean on an amazing journey with all sorts of themes and meaningful interactions with each other, foes, allies, other humans, cosmic and supernatural beings and this is what the writers choose to focus on and have the audience fuss over at  the end of that long journey.

[flyinghigh]

Reading some of the posts here. I am glad my disbelief and, frankly, eye rolling scene of 'I love you Dean' is shared. I have never understood why writers give in to extreme fandom, specially in the case of Destiel. Remember FANFICTION and Dean's reaction? He even looked at the viewers directly ! And after that the writers had the audacity to put such a scene?? To make MC and his fans happy!!

I am glad I am Dean girl and never got involved in MC and Castiel shanigans!!

[tessathereaper]

2 hours ago, Macbeth said:

I don't know.  I don't think it's fair to blame all of this on Misha.

It looks like Dean willingly participated in Destial.

I don't see why this is a problem.  I don't have a problem with this pairing.

But then no love interest is good enough for Dean.  Anyone that is put up as a Dean love interest is torn to shreds.

Jensen admitted as much at panel.  Fans' reactions is the reason why there were no female hunters (that would be age-appropriate love interests.)  on the show.

Joanie and Donna are fine as they are older.  

This is basically an all male show because of this.  So of course Destial is going to be played as an option.

Hey plenty of us would ship Donna and Dean, hell I shipped Dean and Ellen!

[PAForrest]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

Apparently Misha was clear that Jensen was totally on board. Read whole thread to see that part. 
 

 

I read the whole thread, and you're right, it's made very clear that Jensen was on board with it, as he has been with this show for 15 years. Jensen rarely ever makes a fuss - I think the one and only time he talked about really having an issue with part of a specific script was in the "suck it up Princess" scene of the season four finale. He outright talked about that one. And he also admitted Kripke told him it was what it was. Other than that, any time the Js have wanted to tweak or change a line, they've gone to the writer(s) and gotten permission. They've always been very deferential to the producers, unlike a lot of shows where you hear about actors fighting with the producers all the time.

Berens may have wanted Misha to know from the beginning of the season so that he would play Cas as a bitchy little spouse all year, which is exactly what he did with the character. It's why I really couldn't stand him this year. And the intention may be that while Dean loves Cas too - and we know he does, that's not ever in question - it may or may not in a romantic light, but we'll never really know now.

Obviously we have confirmation that Cas was referring to romantic love.  But the way the scene plays out, with Dean finding out how Cas feels seconds before the Empty comes for him in the midst of another "we're about to die" scenario intentionally gives Dean no time to react other than in surprise and instant grief knowing because Cas said that, the Empty is coming for him.

Why Berens waited to tell Jensen until three months may be as simple as since it was Castiel's dying confession and not Dean's, Misha was the only one who needed to know, especially if Berens wanted Misha to play Cas's interactions with Dean a certain way this final season. But what I don't like is Misha saying he wondered if Jensen would push back - because it makes it sound like the only reason they didn't tell Jensen earlier is that he might do that. That's throwing chum into the waters of Misha's nastiest fan base - and it is Misha's fan base who always jump on Jensen.

Even though Misha also makes it clear that Jensen was totally fine with the scene - again, Jensen is a team player, always has been, always will be - Misha unwittingly gave the worst of the worst of his fans more fantasy shit to play with it. Nothing real, but that part of his base just doesn't care about reality.

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

I read the whole thread, and you're right, it's made very clear that Jensen was on board with it, as he has been with this show for 15 years. Jensen rarely ever makes a fuss - I think the one and only time he talked about really having an issue with part of a specific script was in the "suck it up Princess" scene of the season four finale. He outright talked about that one. And he also admitted Kripke told him it was what it was. Other than that, any time the Js have wanted to tweak or change a line, they've gone to the writer(s) and gotten permission. They've always been very deferential to the producers, unlike a lot of shows where you hear about actors fighting with the producers all the time.

Berens may have wanted Misha to know from the beginning of the season so that he would play Cas as a bitchy little spouse all year, which is exactly what he did with the character. It's why I really couldn't stand him this year. And the intention may be that while Dean loves Cas too - and we know he does, that's not ever in question - it may or may not in a romantic light, but we'll never really know now.

Obviously we have confirmation that Cas was referring to romantic love.  But the way the scene plays out, with Dean finding out how Cas feels seconds before the Empty comes for him in the midst of another "we're about to die" scenario intentionally gives Dean no time to react other than in surprise and instant grief knowing because Cas said that, the Empty is coming for him.

Why Berens waited to tell Jensen until three months may be as simple as since it was Castiel's dying confession and not Dean's, Misha was the only one who needed to know, especially if Berens wanted Misha to play Cas's interactions with Dean a certain way this final season. But what I don't like is Misha saying he wondered if Jensen would push back - because it makes it sound like the only reason they didn't tell Jensen earlier is that he might do that. That's throwing chum into the waters of Misha's nastiest fan base - and it is Misha's fan base who always jump on Jensen.

Even though Misha also makes it clear that Jensen was totally fine with the scene - again, Jensen is a team player, always has been, always will be - Misha unwittingly gave the worst of the worst of his fans more fantasy shit to play with it. Nothing real, but that part of his base just doesn't care about reality.

Yeah, I've pretty much lost whatever respect I had left for MC after this-which wasn't much anyway.

And my initial happiness over that scene has now become so much less as a result of this, too.

I dread the other "surprises" that lay in wait for us with these last two episodes.

 

[ukgirl71]

No matter what Misha says, it will never work for me because the writing in recent years simply did not support it.  While I never had any problem with Destiel, never paid much attention to it tbh, I will back any situation if it’s developed well by the writing and the acting.  Be CONSISTENT and I will follow you to the ends of the imaginary world and back again.  Truth be told, Castiel worked best for me when he was the not quite antagonist who dragged Dean from Hell and could throw him back in.  For me, the time for Destiel to have worked was the Emmanuel era.

[ILoveReading]

48 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

But what I don't like is Misha saying he wondered if Jensen would push back - because it makes it sound like the only reason they didn't tell Jensen earlier is that he might do that. That's throwing chum into the waters of Misha's nastiest fan base - and it is Misha's fan base who always jump on Jensen.

What's worse, while Misha didn't outright say it would go full canon, he trolled enough that many of his fans believe it is.  So if it doesn't because of this, fans will now blame Jensen, saying it was supposed too but he nixed it.   

Its too bad all this nastiness happened becasue I've waited years to finally hear someone say those words to Dean.   I also loved Billie calling Dean, death defying, rule breaking, and the definition of chaos.  (Paraphrasing of course. )  Dean really is the most powerful character in the SPN universe. 

[Myrelle]

On 11/9/2020 at 8:16 AM, ukgirl71 said:

No matter what Misha says, it will never work for me because the writing in recent years simply did not support it.  While I never had any problem with Destiel, never paid much attention to it tbh, I will back any situation if it’s developed well by the writing and the acting.  Be CONSISTENT and I will follow you to the ends of the imaginary world and back again.  Truth be told, Castiel worked best for me when he was the not quite antagonist who dragged Dean from Hell and could throw him back in.  For me, the time for Destiel to have worked was the Emmanuel era.

I'm still wondering how it can be said that Destiel was made canon if one half of the ship isn't on board.

That will just never make sense to me.

ETA: just remembered your post, PAFORREST

They are going to hate on him no matter what happens as I think it has more to do with jealousy and resentment than with anything else; and for all the unwarranted hate they should definitely not be rewarded, so hopefully Dean will continue to stay in character and not want to ever talk about it.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Myrelle
Additions

[Binns]

8 hours ago, ukgirl71 said:Truth be told, Castiel worked best for me when he was the not quite antagonist who dragged Dean from Hell and could throw him back in.  For me, the time for Destiel to have worked was the Emmanuel era.

This is my favorite version of Castiel too. “Rusty” “people skills” and all. 

[FlickChick]

22 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Jensen is going to have to answer for that scene at every convention from here on out.  Jensen is demonized no matter what he says.  

My personal opinion is that Jensen probably won't be attending many (if any) conventions when the series is over. I think he'll be busy with other projects including work related to his production company. And frankly, after all I've read in this thread about Misha's statements, maybe he'll decide to develop new friends not associated with Supernatural and get on with his life. I think I would.

[gonzosgirrl]

Fan: any and all questions about Destiel and this episode.

Jensen: that's a question for Misha - he's the expert. Next?

I wonder if Berens or Dabb considered that this declaration of love, that Dean means so very much to Castiel, makes his behavior toward Dean over the last three seasons even more despicable?

[tennisgurl]

Damn Chuck, even Thanos only dusted half the population... 

This show is such a hot mess, I am going to be thrilled to be free of it. When this season started, as much as I have been disenchanted with this show over the years, I did feel a bittersweet sadness at its ending after so many years, but after sitting through all of this? In the immortal words of NSYNC, BYE BYE BYE. 

This episode just really reminded me how little I care about the people from the Apocalypse world, who I honestly thought were all dead until this episode except for the ones with names we know. Its really hard to be super invested when its the fate of people we hardly know, and I kind of assume will be brought back along with the rest of the people who got dusted. I am also always annoyed at how the show tends to treat AU Charlie and Bobby as the original Charlie and Bobby, which they are most definitely not. I also continue to roll my eyes at the "Sam is the chief and leader of the randos" crap, I just struggle with Sam being this supposedly amazing leader. Sam has plenty of good traits, but he has never struck me as a particularly charismatic leader. This is probably horrible of me, but I laughed at the AU people all trying to run for it, trying to get out of the bunker and being all "run! run!" like, where are you trying to go exactly? This isn't an issue of location, its just their existence, or did Mayor Sam not explain what was actually going on?

When Billie was walking all dramatically dragging her scythe around, I couldn't help but think about how much I miss the original death. He didn't have to try to be scary and intimidating, he just WAS scary and intimidating, he had this gravitas to him, you really did feel like he was this ancient entity who looked upon all of this war of the gods stuff as the stuff of bickering children who he could hardly bother with Despite that, he wasn't really a Bad Guy, he was just an inevitable force in the universe, who could be cruel but he could also be merciful, just like Death itself. He was one of the few of the ancient powerful beings on this show that really did feel ancient and powerful, while at the same time feeling like a real character, who was amused by the antics of the Winchesters and loved some good pizza, and despite everything, was generally one of the more reasonable of the celestial body. Then of course, because we cant have nice things, they have to remove a lot of his importance by making Chuck even more powerful and making The Darkness the new hot shit and having him die and be replaced by a lesser reaper. Billie has never had any of that kind of gravitas, and yeah I guess its on purpose because Billie is the "new" death, but it just takes away from the whole universe of this show and away from one of the shows final bosses. I can certainly never imagine the first Death ending his time on the show doing the evil slow walk and cackling evilly and playing petty power games, Billie was just such a waste. 

Of course, who cares about all of that, when the real big moment is the end, and the possible really for real death of Castiel and his declaration of love (platonic or romantic) for Dean. Its like the show realized that Misha has hardly had anything to do this season other than fret over Jack, so they decided to give finally give him a big scene, and what a scene it was. He finally tells Dean what I have been saying all along about him, that he is selfless and kind and full of love and compassion, and that while so many people have treated him like a blunt instrument (including his own family) to be used as a means to an end, he is so much more than that. Yeah, I am not really going to wade into the debate as to whether or not Cas saying he loves Dean means he loved him romantically or as his best friend, except that the show was clearly playing coy, which I have mixed feelings about. It can be seen as cowardly, unwilling to commit one way or another to avoid upsetting anyone, which I think is a pretty lame way to deal with this. I have never read Dean and Cas's relationship as romantic, more as extremely close friends who have had a REALLY complicated relationship with each other, but Dean was probably the most important person in Cas's very long life, and Cas is only second to Sam for Dean, which considering how much of Deans life revolves around Sam, is pretty damn important. They even pretty spell out Dean meant even more to Cas than Jack, which is especially impressive considering how much time we have spent on everyone worshipping Jack. That scene though...I can see it being a romantic love from Cas's end, its probably the first time I have really seen that from him to be honest. Dean I think certainly loves Cas as a brother and as family though. I have pretty mixed feelings on this as Cas's end, on the one hand, I did want him to have a happier end and him getting sucked into super duper Hell is a pretty sad ending for him after everything. On the other hand, if this was his death, he at least went out on his own terms, saving Dean and the rest of the world, after working to make amends for the wrongs he did, and finally finding some peace. Honestly, he looked happier than I think he has ever looked when he said goodbye to Dean and allowed himself to be taken away and finally got to tell Dean what he meant to him. It was a pretty great speech, and it did really sum up a lot about both him and Dean and their relationship. He did teach Cas what it meant to care about people, both on an individual level and as a while of humanity, and while that did take him on a pretty crazy path a few times, he did rather end up in a good place, with the people he cared about, trying to save the world. So I would be just fine with him coming back again, even if its just a brief cameo, but if this is his end, its certainly a lot better than what a lot of characters have gotten, and does actually seem to be a completion of his arc. His story started and ended with him saving Dean, the first time because he was following his orders from God, the last time fighting against God because it was what he wanted to do. 

And of course, Jenson killed the whole sequence, you could really see his growing horror as he realized what Cas was going to do, and then ending with him just sitting on the floor sobbing, ignoring his phone. Damn it, how does this stupid show still get to me sometimes? 

Edited November 9, 2020 by tennisgurl

[BabySpinach]

51 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Of course, who cares about all of that, when the real big moment is the end, and the possible really for real death of Castiel and his declaration of love (platonic or romantic) for Dean. Its like the show realized that Misha has hardly had anything to do this season other than fret over Jack, so they decided to give finally give him a big scene, and what a scene it was. He finally tells Dean what I have been saying all along about him, that he is selfless and kind and full of love and compassion, and that while so many people have treated him like a blunt instrument (including his own family) to be used as a means to an end, he is so much more than that. Yeah, I am not really going to wade into the debate as to whether or not Cas saying he loves Dean means he loved him romantically or as his best friend, except that the show was clearly playing coy, which I have mixed feelings about. It can be seen as cowardly, unwilling to commit one way or another to avoid upsetting anyone, which I think is a pretty lame way to deal with this. I have never read Dean and Cas's relationship as romantic, more as extremely close friends who have had a REALLY complicated relationship with each other, but Dean was probably the most important person in Cas's very long life, and Cas is only second to Sam for Dean, which considering how much of Deans life revolves around Sam, is pretty damn important. They even pretty spell out Dean meant even more to Cas than Jack, which is especially impressive considering how much time we have spent on everyone worshipping Jack. That scene though...I can see it being a romantic love from Cas's end, its probably the first time I have really seen that from him to be honest. Dean I think certainly loves Cas as a brother and as family though. I have pretty mixed feelings on this as Cas's end, on the one hand, I did want him to have a happier end and him getting sucked into super duper Hell is a pretty sad ending for him after everything. On the other hand, if this was his death, he at least went out on his own terms, saving Dean and the rest of the world, after working to make amends for the wrongs he did, and finally finding some peace. Honestly, he looked happier than I think he has ever looked when he said goodbye to Dean and allowed himself to be taken away and finally got to tell Dean what he meant to him. It was a pretty great speech, and it did really sum up a lot about both him and Dean and their relationship. He did teach Cas what it meant to care about people, both on an individual level and as a while of humanity, and while that did take him on a pretty crazy path a few times, he did rather end up in a good place, with the people he cared about, trying to save the world. So I would be just fine with him coming back again, even if its just a brief cameo, but if this is his end, its certainly a lot better than what a lot of characters have gotten, and does actually seem to be a completion of his arc. His story started and ended with him saving Dean, the first time because he was following his orders from God, the last time fighting against God because it was what he wanted to do. 

And of course, Jenson killed the whole sequence, you could really see his growing horror as he realized what Cas was going to do, and then ending with him just sitting on the floor sobbing, ignoring his phone. Damn it, how does this stupid show still get to me sometimes? 

I'd never considered it before, but Cas' ending really is rather poetic, isn't it? His first act on the show is to save Dean Winchester as just some celestial grunt. His last act is to choose to save Dean because he loves him, in defiance of God and everyone else. If we hadn't had Dabb's years and his shiny self-insert OC to muddy the waters, Cas' confession scene would have fit decently at pretty much any point after season 6. It's like they suddenly remembered who Cas was supposed to be at the literal last minute and completely skipped over seasons 12-15 to get back there. Well, at least the foundation for this ending had been sufficiently laid out before that.

Cas' speech to Dean about his endless multitudes of goodness still makes me happy. I'm sure it did a lot more for Dean fans than Dean himself, but it was just so good to hear it all spelled out on the actual show (and I would've been equally satisfied had it come from anyone else, not just Cas). Regardless of the mountains of baggage around this speech and the overall scene, I still loved this aspect of it.

Edited November 9, 2020 by BabySpinach