S18.E33: Tristan Harris, Malcolm Nance, Rosa Brooks

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Guests: Tristan Harris, Malcolm Nance, Rosa Brooks

Original air date: 2020.11.06

[bobbyjoe]

This was a really good show.  The guests were excellent this time.   I have to say though, those balloons popping, what with everything that’s going on right now, was scary enough for a second at home; I can only imagine what it was like in the studio (I’m not sure if Bill was joking or not about having rehearsed that— I think he was, because what kind of a joke would that have been?)

So it was all good up until the very end, but then Bill does another both-sider final rant, just like he did last week, and somehow makes it even lamer and even more disconnected than he did last week?  Please.  What Bill’s saying sounds nice, you know, until you take into consideration what Bill and his guests had pretty much just spent the entire rest of the show talking about.  

He doesn’t ever say how the left is supposed to do all this reconciliation he keeps insisting on with a rightwing that— again as everyone on the show had just spent quite a long time talking about— has this intense furious hatred toward the left, to the point people like Malcolm Nance are starting to worry about the possibility of genuine terrorism in this country.  The only way Bill’s stupid Gwen Stefani/Blake Shelton analogy would work is if Blake Shelton was crazily paranoid and hated Gwen with the passion of a thousand suns, to the point where the neighbors were starting to be concerned there might be violence— and Bill was advising her that she needed to go after him anyway and that she had to do all the work to try and make their relationship work.

Edited November 7, 2020 by bobbyjoe

[Cupcake04]

Fantastic guests last night.  All three.  I have been saying what Malcom said for 3 years and have been scared.  Husband used to say I was crazy and its not that bad.  Well now he is saying the same thing.  I feel somewhat validated that Malcom was saying it, although I pray every day to be wrong about my fears.  I hope Rosa is right that people are not really stupid, but I fear she is wrong.  I think they are mostly lazy...too lazy to fact check or check the sources or read beyond the headline that feeds into their narrative, whatever that may be. 

The biggest part of this is SM.  I have said for years that SM is the downfall of our society.  I ditched FB 4 years ago.  It is toxic and I grew tired of fact checking and educating friends/family about the false postings that they ran with as truth.  I have no idea what the solution is, but somehow we need to find it.  The longer the media drags out the election results, the worse it is getting.  

Edited November 7, 2020 by Cupcake04

[iMonrey]

Nance and Brooks represented a nice balance between hope and fear. I thought it was funny when the balloon popped and Bill fell to the floor, whether it was planned or not. (I kind of think it wasn't, because the camera wasn't on him when it happened.)

[DXD526]

Quote

What Bill’s saying sounds nice, you know, until you take into consideration what Bill and his guests had pretty much just spent the entire rest of the show talking about.  

I was confused by this, as well. First he's going on despairingly about how awful it is that so many people voted for such an odious person as 45 after the last four years, then he wraps with a new rule which is a bunch of kumbaya bullshit about how we should all look past our petty little differences and just get along. Huh?? Did I miss something? Did he not realize he just majorly contradicted himself? I don't know what his views are on this, he seems to feel strongly both ways. 

[tessaray]

To be fair, Bill has always been a big fan of flyover country. Between it and Vegas, it's a huge part of his income and his base. And it makes him feel like he's more in touch than the average rich libertarian. 🙂  

At least that seemed to explain the whole Stefani/Shelton thing - in my mind anyway. 

 

[Frisson]

I just keep thinking that if we couched this in terms he understands, believers and atheists, he might stop this reconciliation bullshit. He never turns down a chance to shit on the religious, so if we reminded him how he talks and feels about those people, he might understand better. Bill, can you accept and appreciate the Christians and Muslims and not think they are stupid, sexist, and racist in their own way? Because that’s how liberals and conservatives feel about each other. That the other side’s beliefs are so damaging to our world order, we can’t just accept them with open arms. When he considers joining a prayer circle or agreeing Muslims can be civil and reasonable people, I’ll think about embracing people who actively reject the democratic values I support. 

[FoundTime]

I was on a Zoom call a couple of weeks ago and someone had just seen The Social Dilemma and was going on and on about algorithms -- and I realized this was the first time she was understanding that that's how social media works. I was kind of gobsmacked that somebody could be a functioning adult in 2020 (and she is not a stupid person) and not know that.

Rosa made what turned out to be a kind of throwaway comment (b/c of time, I think) that nobody is ever going to change because you call them a moron or an idiot or a racist, that you have to go slower and it takes time, and I really wish they had more time for that because she is absolutely right. I took a series of webinars on antiracism this summer and the presenter made exactly that point and taught a technique that went in the same direction Rosa was going when she got cut off. You have to elicit the person's story or experience and then share your own story or experience (that is different from theirs), over the course of a series of conversations. His name is Warren Chalklen and he has some videos on YouTube  that illustrate the technique if anyone is interested in learning more.

[Victor the Crab]

On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2020 at 1:34 PM, tessaray said:

To be fair, Bill has always been a big fan of flyover country. Between it and Vegas, it's a huge part of his income and his base. And it makes him feel like he's more in touch than the average rich libertarian. 🙂  

At least that seemed to explain the whole Stefani/Shelton thing - in my mind anyway. 

 

I doubt Bill has ever come in contact with one of those red capped people when he's on the road. Otherwise, he'd find out the hard way just how much they hate someone like him just for his attacks on Christianity alone. That New Rules sermon of his was total disingenuous bullshit!

And Bill doesn't deserve to celebrate Biden's victory, given how he's spent the past four years whining and complaining and screaming about how democracy is finished and blaming and scapegoating Democrats and liberals for allowing that to happen.

[iMonrey]

Quote

The only way Bill’s stupid Gwen Stefani/Blake Shelton analogy would work is if Blake Shelton was crazily paranoid and hated Gwen with the passion of a thousand suns, to the point where the neighbors were starting to be concerned there might be violence— and Bill was advising her that she needed to go after him anyway and that she had to do all the work to try and make their relationship work.

And if everyone looked like Gwen Stefani and Blake Shelton 😉

[BrownBear2012]

6 hours ago, Victor the Crab said:

I doubt Bill has ever come in contact with one of those red capped people when he's on the road. Otherwise, he'd find out the hard way just how much they hate someone like him just for his attacks on Christianity alone. That New Rules sermon of his was total disingenuous bullshit!

And Bill doesn't deserve to celebrate Biden's victory, given how he's spent the past four years whining and complaining and screaming about how democracy is finished and blaming and scapegoating Democrats and liberals for allowing that to happen.

Agree! Not too long ago, Bill was mocking Biden as an "old man" who smells like old man pee. It was gross and disrespectful...and he wonders why so many people have stopped watching him lately. I stopped watching him a year and a half ago. His rants about the same old stuff like millennials, religion, Democrats, Liberals, etc...are just tedious and repetitious. He's become a grumpy old man who really doesn't care to hear another point of view. It's become clear that he is now more of libertarian. Hard to believe HBO just extended his contract...clearly they don't how to fill that time slot on a Friday night because Bill's show is just a snooze fest now.

Edited November 9, 2020 by BrownBear2012

[ruby24]

34 minutes ago, BrownBear2012 said:

Agree! Not too long ago, Bill was mocking Biden as an "old man" who smells like old man pee. It was gross and disrespectful...and he wonders why so many people have stopped watching him lately. I stopped watching him a year and a half ago. His rants about the same old stuff like millennials, religion, Democrats, Liberals, etc...are just tedious and repetitious. He's become a grumpy old man who really doesn't care to hear another point of view. It's become clear that he is now more of libertarian. Hard to believe HBO just extended his contract...clearly they don't how to fill that time slot on a Friday night because Bill's show is just a snooze fest now.

Has he actually wondered this? Has he recognized that he's lost viewers? Because I also don't watch him anymore and I wondered how many others had tuned out like me.

[Witchz]

Im sorry but I think Malcom Nance just came across as the biggest racist that is so full of hate - I think maybe he might go out and start some of the violent behavior they are accusing Trump voters of. When you start calling half of America ignorant or misinformed like you are one of the chosen few who actually are special cause you have a higher understanding of the policies and the 48 % that voted for Trump needs to be in the same opinion as you or they are just less than and or stupid - you lose people and look like you are the one who doesnt "get it"  and it becomes very clear just why you are one of the chosen ones. As a matter of fact it sounds like you are wishing and wanting some sort of civil unrest yourself. Why do I have to listen to this kind of vile ridiculous and repetitive.

[Tara]

I agree Nance spoke with racism. Condemning an entire group of people with a negative trait is the definition of racism. What a hypocrite.

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, Witchz said:

Im sorry but I think Malcom Nance just came across as the biggest racist that is so full of hate - I think maybe he might go out and start some of the violent behavior they are accusing Trump voters of. When you start calling half of America ignorant or misinformed like you are one of the chosen few who actually are special cause you have a higher understanding of the policies and the 48 % that voted for Trump needs to be in the same opinion as you or they are just less than and or stupid - you lose people and look like you are the one who doesnt "get it"  and it becomes very clear just why you are one of the chosen ones. As a matter of fact it sounds like you are wishing and wanting some sort of civil unrest yourself. Why do I have to listen to this kind of vile ridiculous and repetitive.

 

15 minutes ago, Tara said:

I agree Nance spoke with racism. Condemning an entire group of people with a negative trait is the definition of racism. What a hypocrite.

No, the definition of racism has race in it - it's right there in the name. He was identifying people by the policies they support, not anything they were born as. He said that if people voted for Trump after seeing him for four years it was time to assume they supported what Donald Trump was offering--starting with the elimination rhetoric. If we're assuming that "Trump voters" - "white voters", that's rather proving his point. White supremacist groups love Trump in a special way. (And if we're talking about vile, ridiculous and repetitive....Trump?)

On the subject of violence, he was specifically referring to white supremacist groups like the Proud Boys driving around with guns. I didn't see anything threatening about him saying they could be a threat--they've threatened to be a threat. It's what they want to be. Nance even mentioned supporting policies to give everyone--Trump voters, Biden voters and non-voters--affordable healthcare. So he wasn't fantasizing about hurting them, but healing them without bankrupting them.

Also it seems significant that Nance was the person saying that he took the voters at their word and assumed they voted for what they wanted to vote for and understood, after four years of watching Trump in action, what that was. It was Bill and Brooks who had to start from the premise that they were just mistaken. 

[Tara]

I was going to put racism/prejudice and I should have.  Prejudice against any group, whether it be a race, a sexual orientation, a political party.

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, Tara said:

I was going to put racism/prejudice and I should have.  Prejudice against any group, whether it be a race, a sexual orientation, a political party.

Yeah, but political party is very different than the other two things. Of course there's a lot of things one can't just assume by someone's political party, absolutely. It's a broad thing and the meaning can change--the two US parties did a pretty big flip, for instance. But in this case Nance was pretty specific about what he was talking about supporting right now. He himself, I think he said, used to be a conservative and presumably Republican. 

[Tara]

I don’t know if that really is different. Maybe a different group than we’ve seen lately. It is still a generalization in a negative way of a large group of people you don’t know.

On the show, Nance said this of about 69 million people:

 These people have revealed themselves for the racists that they are, the tribalists that they are, they don’t care about “E Pluribus Unum, ‘from many, one,’ they care about ‘got mine and, you know, you shouldn’t get anything of yours,'” Nance said.

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Tara

[Cupcake04]

2 hours ago, Tara said:

I agree Nance spoke with racism. Condemning an entire group of people with a negative trait is the definition of racism. What a hypocrite.

I could not disagree with this any more.  I have found that immediately calling someone a racist is an easy way to dismiss and disregard what they are saying.  Also, as a white woman, I find myself rarely able to call someone of color a racist....the whole “walk amile in their shoes” thing.

[Tara]

8 minutes ago, Cupcake04 said:

more.  I have found that immediately calling someone a racist is an easy way to dismiss and disregard what they are saying

But that’s what Nance did, Cupcake.

[heatherchandler]

On 11/7/2020 at 3:11 AM, bobbyjoe said:

This was a really good show.  The guests were excellent this time.   I have to say though, those balloons popping, what with everything that’s going on right now, was scary enough for a second at home; I can only imagine what it was like in the studio (I’m not sure if Bill was joking or not about having rehearsed that— I think he was, because what kind of a joke would that have been?)

So it was all good up until the very end, but then Bill does another both-sider final rant, just like he did last week, and somehow makes it even lamer and even more disconnected than he did last week?  Please.  What Bill’s saying sounds nice, you know, until you take into consideration what Bill and his guests had pretty much just spent the entire rest of the show talking about.  

He doesn’t ever say how the left is supposed to do all this reconciliation he keeps insisting on with a rightwing that— again as everyone on the show had just spent quite a long time talking about— has this intense furious hatred toward the left, to the point people like Malcolm Nance are starting to worry about the possibility of genuine terrorism in this country.  The only way Bill’s stupid Gwen Stefani/Blake Shelton analogy would work is if Blake Shelton was crazily paranoid and hated Gwen with the passion of a thousand suns, to the point where the neighbors were starting to be concerned there might be violence— and Bill was advising her that she needed to go after him anyway and that she had to do all the work to try and make their relationship work.

He was joking.

He does a both sides rant because there are two sides.. and both think they are right.  There is no furious hatred coming from the right, I know this as I live in a very conservative area.  The media perpetuates that narrative.  It is simply not true.  Many republican people disagree with democrats, and that has always been.  There are dangerous people on both sides, the far right and far left, absolutely.  There is NO reason to think your average republican is dangerous.  

 

16 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Has he actually wondered this? Has he recognized that he's lost viewers? Because I also don't watch him anymore and I wondered how many others had tuned out like me.

Where can you see his ratings over time?  I looked it up and I see he gets about 1.4 million viewers.  For comparison, Tucker Carlson is always on the top with about 4 million.  Has Bill gotten better ratings in the past?

 

16 hours ago, Witchz said:

Im sorry but I think Malcom Nance just came across as the biggest racist that is so full of hate - I think maybe he might go out and start some of the violent behavior they are accusing Trump voters of. When you start calling half of America ignorant or misinformed like you are one of the chosen few who actually are special cause you have a higher understanding of the policies and the 48 % that voted for Trump needs to be in the same opinion as you or they are just less than and or stupid - you lose people and look like you are the one who doesnt "get it"  and it becomes very clear just why you are one of the chosen ones. As a matter of fact it sounds like you are wishing and wanting some sort of civil unrest yourself. Why do I have to listen to this kind of vile ridiculous and repetitive.

Agree. 

[Cupcake04]

1 hour ago, Tara said:

But that’s what Nance did, Cupcake.

Not even close, Tara.  My original point was that posters were saying Nance was racist and a hypocrite and I totally disagree.  I also disagree with your assertion he called them racists (semantics).  Agree to disagree.

 

ETA editing posts on ipad is tricky and doesnt always work!!

[Tara]

This is exactly what Nance said, you can play it back.

Let me tell you something about the 69 million people that voted for Trump........These people have revealed themselves for the racists that they are, the tribalists that they are, they don’t care about “E Pluribus Unum, ‘from many, one,’ they care about ‘got mine and, you know, you shouldn’t get anything of yours,”

*and I hear you about working on iPads 🙂 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Tara

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

He was joking.

He does a both sides rant because there are two sides.. and both think they are right.  There is no furious hatred coming from the right, I know this as I live in a very conservative area.  The media perpetuates that narrative.  It is simply not true.  Many republican people disagree with democrats, and that has always been.  There are dangerous people on both sides, the far right and far left, absolutely.  There is NO reason to think your average republican is dangerous.  

 

 

Well, yeah, I get the rhetorical move, of course. Nance was saying that when you vote for these policies you're saying who you are. If one believes the Green New Deal or BLM are dangerous policies to support, the person who supports them must defend their support. If you instead say it's unfair to generalize you don't have to defend any policies anyone was explicitly referencing. You can just talk about Joe Republican who might punch someone vs. Joe Democrat who might punch someone. You erase everything Nance and the panel was talking about and aren't being judged by the policies you support.

Quote

Let me tell you something about the 69 million people that voted for Trump.  These people have revealed themselves for the racists that they are, the tribalists that they are, they don’t care about “E Pluribus Unum, ‘from many, one,’ they care about ‘got mine and, you know, you shouldn’t get anything of yours,”

Yup, that's his view of what the policies and leaders they voted for represent. 

Edited November 10, 2020 by sistermagpie

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Folks,
Lively discussion is supported.  We are getting into some tricky topics. Please remain civil in your posts.  While many feel the speaker made broad-based generalizations about groups of people, let's not do that here or summarily attack any group. 
Also, if you've made your point, move on. There's a point where everyone's differing opinion is set. 
Questions?  PM @PrincessPurrsALot. Thanks!

[dakta]

Love Malcolm Nance ❤️

[Witchz]

7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

 

No, the definition of racism has race in it - it's right there in the name. He was identifying people by the policies they support, not anything they were born as. 

You are absolutely right- thank you for bringing that to my attention.  I should have said he was being very prejudice or discriminatory. 

[heatherchandler]

6 hours ago, Cupcake04 said:

Not even close, Tara.  My original point was that posters were saying Nance was racist and a hypocrite and I totally disagree.  I also disagree with your assertion he called them racists (semantics).  Agree to disagree.

No semantics, he definitely said “racists.”

[wknt3]

On 11/7/2020 at 4:11 AM, bobbyjoe said:

The only way Bill’s stupid Gwen Stefani/Blake Shelton analogy would work is if Blake Shelton was crazily paranoid and hated Gwen with the passion of a thousand suns, to the point where the neighbors were starting to be concerned there might be violence— and Bill was advising her that she needed to go after him anyway and that she had to do all the work to try and make their relationship work.

You forgot to mention that Bill has been telling Gwen for years that she needed to stand up for herself and not taking anymore of his BS and to kick him if the nuts if he keeps it up. And that what upset him the most is that Blake lost sponsorships and airplay after tweeting that he hoped his fans would "take care of her" because no one cares more than him about domestic violence etc. but OMG cancel culture...

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

No semantics, he definitely said “racists.”

Yes, he definitely did say racist. He was saying that Trump's policies were explicitly racist and voting for him after four years was voting for racism. No pre-judgment and not semantics. I got the impression that from his pov it was more like "stop trying to find other things to describe this."

 

4 hours ago, wknt3 said:

You forgot to mention that Bill has been telling Gwen for years that she needed to stand up for herself and not taking anymore of his BS and to kick him if the nuts if he keeps it up. And that what upset him the most is that Blake lost sponsorships and airplay after tweeting that he hoped his fans would "take care of her" because no one cares more than him about domestic violence etc. but OMG cancel culture...

LOL! Honestly, sometimes I'd love to actually get the guy to map out exactly what route he expects liberals to take. It seems like he's just always trying to justify his own attraction to far-right ideas as being a morally superior liberal.

[Tara]

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yup, that's his view of what the policies and leaders they voted for represent. 

And Yup, his view is prejudiced and deliberately damaging to efforts for a constructive dialog between the sides.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Tara said:

And Yup, his view is prejudiced and deliberately damaging to efforts for a constructive dialog between the sides.

Possibly. But it's probably equally damaging to efforts for constructive dialogue to deal in a more comforting fiction. Race and racism are central questions and it seems hard for everyone to not call it out when they feel it--as Malcolm Nance was heard as being racist/prejudiced and full of hate because of what he said, and as he said Trump voters revealed themselves as racists by what they said with their vote. Not that I think it's constructive for people just call each other racists back and forth, but neither is walking away because somebody called us a racist--and that applies to people who voted for Biden as well, who get called that too. It seems especially significant when it's coming from a black person who was even conservative voter himself (I think he said). 

I mean, just because somebody says something/someone is racist doesn't make it true, but it always seems good to think about it seriously. US History makes it often impossible and not a good idea to start from the premise that there's no racism at work in something. 

Edited November 10, 2020 by sistermagpie
Typo

[Tara]

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

but it always seems good to think about it seriously.

My last word on the subject, lest I beat a horse to death, but absolutely not when someone starts out by saying “these 69 million people revealed themselves to be racists.”  C’mon.  It’s reckless and should not be given any serious thought.

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Tara said:

My last word on the subject, lest I beat a horse to death, but absolutely not when someone starts out by saying “these 69 million people revealed themselves to be racists.”  C’mon.  It’s reckless and should not be given any serious thought.

I think it depends on what the word means to you. I would think about it--I mean, Republicans often claim that Democrats are the "real racists." They say it a lot. and I've thought about it enough to know why I don't agree that with what they were claiming was racist. In their case they are saying that social programs, financial assistance etc. are insulting and keeping black people enslaved and dependent on the government. I didn't take it as them claiming to know anything about my inner character or soul, though maybe the wanted me too! 

Anyway, that's the way I react to MN's words too. MMV. My last word too! 🙂

[lovinbob]

On 11/9/2020 at 4:19 PM, Tara said:

I don’t know if that really is different. Maybe a different group than we’ve seen lately. It is still a generalization in a negative way of a large group of people you don’t know.

On the show, Nance said this of about 69 million people:

 These people have revealed themselves for the racists that they are, the tribalists that they are, they don’t care about “E Pluribus Unum, ‘from many, one,’ they care about ‘got mine and, you know, you shouldn’t get anything of yours,'” Nance said.

How is what he said wrong? You don't have to be a member of the KKK to participate in racism. 

Also, I would argue that he is describing three/four of the things that moved voters to choose Trump. Racism drove many voters to choose Trump, as did tribalism (those who could never bring themselves to vote for a Dem, which I heard many people say leading up to this election, and the last one), as did perceived self-interest over the good of the many.