S15.E14: Last Holiday

[Affogato]

After reflection I think I would Have been happy if they had wrapped up the jack/chuck arc and had the remaining episodes inthe Mrs Butters bunker. They would use the m ster hunter and kill monsters, return to the bunker and have a hot meal. Dean would find a girl, Sam would continue to date Eileen. Eventually they would find out they were in Heaven and use the telescope to see and contact Bobby and others and find out what was happening on earth. At the end they would learn how to go back to earth to help with some crisis. End show. 
 

Jack really is wearing on me. 

[Lemuria]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

It's in character.

Was it also "in character" for Sam, who was standing there, heard what she said and didn't open his mouth? Aren't we always being told that he's the smart one? (And maybe, since Dean really is smart, he knew exactly what that meant--since they'd already learned that Chuck was wiping out the universes--the same way we did and felt no need to hear the bad news a second time.)

[Pondlass1]

13 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I have been watching a lot of old episodes lately,

Me too and the two nincompoops we saw in last night's episode wouldn't have survived the first five seasons.  They weren't stereotypes when it started. But stereotypes are easy to write I guess. 

 I wonder what the ratings will be?

[Aeryn13]

29 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

 

 I wonder what the ratings will be?

Quite strong for the CW.

[Morrigan2575]

Aww, I loved this episode so much. It was cute and sweet and a wonderful family episode.

I honestly, can't believe I typed that about SPN but, it's true. The boys being a family with baby brother Jack is adorable.

I really liked Mrs. Butters and, I'm glad it didn't end with her going full evil and, having to be killed. 

Welcome back, SPN! I'm not ready for you to go 😞

[Casseiopeia]

 Too lazy to look up the ratings thread

Not bad 

 

[Bobcatkitten]

I really enjoyed that episode. I think the rest of the season is going to be very emotional and heavy so this was just right. 

Having Dean watch his language was hilarious and I love how happy he is with little things - from food to a Christmas tree. He is a joy. 

I'm very glad there was no apology to Jack. Dean was clear that he is working on it but can't forget it. I thought he struck a good tone. And watching him swing the blade at Jack and use him as a battering ram - laughed out loud. 

Ultimately, Dean is the caretaker of the group and that showed throug. 

 

 

[gonzosgirrl]

I haven't seen it mentioned - why the heck did Sam have Thor's Hammer at a vamp hunt? And are we supposed to believe that he can wield it? He shouldn't even be able to lift it, and if he can, it ain't Jack who should be fighting God.

 

ETA: I remember 8x02 but it didn't make any sense then, and it makes even less now.

Edited October 9, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

Swears less. Eats healthier food. Less pushy. The usual. Sam is a ‘good boy’. 

pretty much this.  Sam is a closer replica of previous MoL members.  

Which leads me too: The MoL must have dispatched hunters all day versus go out themselves. 

[SueB]

Second viewing thoughts:

- So many little details were spread throughout the episode, I really like Jeremy Adams.  Like Robbie Thompson, he's a fan and he relishes in fan details. Some of it is production details. Props is likely responsible for the Scooby Doo underwear.  But I bet Adams wrote the ScoobyNatural pajamas "It's like a hug!".   And the montage just CRIES OUT for fun bits, likely added by the boys for a lot of them. 
Examples:

• Notice the wee competition to get out the door first - Dean always beat Sam to the punch.  I am 100% positive that was intentional (no clue who's idea).  Not because it MATTERS who is first, but because they are brothers -- which is why it is heartwarming.
•  Dean's JOY when he saw Christmas and said "We're Keeping Her!" 
• The green bean fangs at Easter (hee) - again, brothers.
• The gentle (IMO it was in good fun) teasing about Rice Crispy treats with an actual batch JUST FOR DEAN in the kitchen.  It showed she new how to tease and play with the boys.
• The old garage was mentioned, the control panel for the bunker what shown, the Dean Cave got a shout out... all good stuff

Mrs. Butters' backstory was really sad.  Cuthbert Sinclaire treated her like a pet, the asshole.  Like a useful part of his zoo.  Brainwashing her via torture into thinking her most important calling was helping out the MoL.  And so the MoL became her family.  I worry about where she heads to.

I thought Mrs. Butters was not really manipulative but very determined.  Yes, she essentially drugged Jack.  But to someone from the 1950's hearing "son of Satan", having lost her family to demons.  Well, I can't imagine her truly reacting like "it's no big deal". Like most, the smoothies were immediately suspect.  But when it came time to killing, she explained things so matter-of-fact.  Like she was certain the boys would immediately understand.

The argument that FINALLY hit her central CPU was "he can save the world!"  And that was a little sad for me.  I think they've done a good job of Dean coming along with Jack but I think they've also acknowledged that he's being used as a bit of a tool.  IMO Dean stayed his hand in Moriah NOT because of Jack being required but because he believed there was goodness there.  But I also can't help but think that sometimes, in his heart of hearts, knowing that Jack is required HELPS with working on his feelings for him.  Nothing wrong with that, but this episode may be one that convinces Jack that his only purpose is to fight Chuck.  He needs to have more than that.  

I LOVED that Dean didn't bother calling Sam while he was working on his sign-language.  Dean's instincts were that there was time to deal with the crisis.  And I think his instincts about Mrs. Butter were spot on.  She wouldn't kill Jack if she believed the boys truly loved him.  And that too was an important factor in her backing down.

I know many complain, but I LOVE Dean as the parent of this little family.  Yes, Sam is a grown-ass man.  And Cas is an adult-ish (although he doesn't always take care of himself).  But he learned something from Mrs. Butters.  He may have known the value of slowing down and celebrating, but he was moved enough to take action with the birthday cake.  

I also loved that Sam learned to take advantage of the time he has.  He WENT on that date with Eileen.  They aren't moving in together, but they are not giving up their relationship completely.  

All in all, I think Mrs Butters gave them joy and helped them allow themselves to take care of themselves.  

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I haven't seen it mentioned - why the heck did Sam have Thor's Hammer at a vamp hunt? And are we supposed to believe that he can wield it? He shouldn't even be able to lift it, and if he can, it ain't Jack who should be fighting God.

 

ETA: I remember 8x02 but it didn't make any sense then, and it makes even less now.

I think it just was supposed to be a comedy gimmick on the side. But seeing as how Lucifer handled Odin back in Season 5, Thor (and his hammer) aren't quite up to snuff in Supernatural. 

I thought it just looked rather pretentious on a vamp hunt. Did Dean have the grenade launcher? Why not take good old machetes or maybe Samurai swords if they were feeling fancy?

Maybe they had been going on so many random hunts, they tried to switch it up by bringing stupid weapons?

[Terese]

6 hours ago, Katy M said:

She did manage to subdue an archnephilim.  I'd call that pretty powerful.  What I don't get (other than plot purposes) is why she didn't just go ahead and kill Jack herself.  Or Jack and Dean once Dean took a pass.

During the gruesome Thule film clip, I wondered why they were having Mrs. Butters kill him. Part of a demonstration to show that she was powerful and thoroughly compliant, it seems. Their method became her method. She had to see that both Sam and Dean could could understand he is evil and resist Jack's brainwashing them, while being compliant to her. 

Is this mirroring Billie brainwashing Jack. I hope so. Something relevant and connected would be refreshing.

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I haven't seen it mentioned - why the heck did Sam have Thor's Hammer at a vamp hunt?

It wasn't a Vamp hunt. The Hammer didn't show up until the end of the Hunter montage. Whatever they were hunting had Dean break out his favorite toy and Sam bring the hammer. I don't know what it was and it really doesn't matter it was just a fun montage of the boys kicking in doors.

[Castiels Cat]

10 hours ago, Katy M said:

Not to mention that this means the MOLs knew about all the AUs all along but never wrote it down anywhere.  Makes sense for a group of people called the Men of Letters.

Maybe the wrote it all down using acronyms that the Winchesters think are a mystical occult tongue.

 

Acronyms = MoL

Edited October 9, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Terese said:

During the gruesome Thule film clip, I wondered why they were having Mrs. Butters kill him. Part of a demonstration to show that she was powerful and thoroughly compliant, it seems. Their method became her method. She had to see that both Sam and Dean could could understand he is evil and resist Jack's brainwashing them, while being compliant to her. 

Is this mirroring Billie brainwashing Jack. I hope so. Something relevant and connected would be refreshing.

I thought Ms Butters and Jack were the mirrors as I explained this above. Both were lead to believe their special powers have a higher purpose after they perpetuate a bloody act. In her defense she was defending her home from Nazis. I am not sure why Jack was so disgusted. He was being a super brat that didn't want to listen to anyone else. Lost his soul, kept using his power and let his explosive anger get the better of him literally obliterating the Winchester's mother. She is much more sympathetic.

The Winchesters need to get a clue that perhaps blindly following along isn't a great idea. That's the moral of the story. They're being fed something and it isn't delicious.

[Terese]

16 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I thought Ms Butters and Jack were the mirrors as I explained this above. Both were lead to believe their special powers have a higher purpose after they perpetuate a bloody act. In her defense she was defending her home from Nazis. I am not sure why Jack was so disgusted. He was being a super brat that didn't want to listen to anyone else. Lost his soul, kept using his power and let his explosive anger get the better of him literally obliterating the Winchester's mother. She is much more sympathetic.

The Winchesters need to get a clue that perhaps blindly following along isn't a great idea. That's the moral of the story. They're being fed something and it isn't delicious.

Lots of mirrors in that episode.

[Castiels Cat]

28 minutes ago, Terese said:

Lots of mirrors in that episode.

Yes. Billie and Cuthbert. Jack and Butters

Winchesters need to stop being spoon fed the answers.

[Terese]

1 minute ago, Castiels Cat said:

Yes. Billie and Cuthbert. Jack and Butters

Winchesters need to stop being spoon fed the answers.

Their nonchalant acceptance(mostly Dean) has been somewhat infuriating or puzzling. I don't recall them ever being inactive, uninquisitive and complacent; even when they mess up, they do it with gusto. 

[BabySpinach]

Pleasant episode that went down easy. High praise for this season. 

The more they keep hammering away at how Jack is the only one who can save the world, the stronger vibes I get of season 11. Everything was pointing toward "kill Amara" right up until that penultimate episode, where it all went tits up and they had to scramble for a desperate, last-ditch solution that actually involved at least one of the brothers as an active agent. Similarly, there's no way that something doesn't go massively wrong at the eleventh hour with the "kill God" plan, otherwise it'd be the most linear and unexciting narrative in history. (Watch me eat my words when the finale airs lol).

Mrs. Butters was better than I expected. She didn't fall into the easy category of "bullying Dean because his pain/embarrassment is funny" camp. I definitely got the sense that she genuinely cared about them, and that all her gentle criticisms were in good faith. In other words, she wasn't a Missouri. Sam being the favorite of a fussy, old-school matronly type also tracks. The same writer had already given Dean his well-deserved dues in 15.07, so I'm okay with it.

I'll savor Dean not apologizing for his feelings for as long as I possibly can. It was good that Mrs. Butters provided an outside POV to reinforce, once again, that killing someone's mother is NOT easily forgivable nor easy to brush off. That didn't exactly last long considering she eventually cheerleaded Jack for his world-saving mission, but I'll take it.

I hate Jack the character for what he represents in the story, for how he's hogged the spotlight ever since he arrived, and for his complete lack of compelling motive or personality except "cute", but damn it all if Alex isn't doing his best. He's the only reason I can remotely stomach Nougat Boy on my screen (as long as he's behaving himself). But seriously, they couldn't have given the world-saving mission to a less interesting guy. I don't give a shit if he kills God. Why should I? What does this mission mean for him? What personal stake does he have in the victory? What exactly is he sacrificing for it? This is also why I'm crossing my fingers that our actual main characters will have to step in when it all goes disastrously wrong. They really were laying on "savior Jack" pretty thick, even for this crew. 🤷

[Terese]

8 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Pleasant episode that went down easy. High praise for this season. 

The more they keep hammering away at how Jack is the only one who can save the world, the stronger vibes I get of season 11. Everything was pointing toward "kill Amara" right up until that penultimate episode, where it all went tits up and they had to scramble for a desperate, last-ditch solution that actually involved at least one of the brothers as an active agent. Similarly, there's no way that something doesn't go massively wrong at the eleventh hour with the "kill God" plan, otherwise it'd be the most linear and unexciting narrative in history. (Watch me eat my words when the finale airs lol).

Mrs. Butters was better than I expected. She didn't fall into the easy category of "bullying Dean because his pain/embarrassment is funny" camp. I definitely got the sense that she genuinely cared about them, and that all her gentle criticisms were in good faith. In other words, she wasn't a Missouri. Sam being the favorite of a fussy, old-school matronly type also tracks. The same writer had already given Dean his well-deserved dues in 15.07, so I'm okay with it.

I'll savor Dean not apologizing for his feelings for as long as I possibly can. It was good that Mrs. Butters provided an outside POV to reinforce, once again, that killing someone's mother is NOT easily forgivable nor easy to brush off. That didn't exactly last long considering she eventually cheerleaded Jack for his world-saving mission, but I'll take it.

I hate Jack the character for what he represents in the story, for how he's hogged the spotlight ever since he arrived, and for his complete lack of compelling motive or personality except "cute", but damn it all if Alex isn't doing his best. He's the only reason I can remotely stomach Nougat Boy on my screen (as long as he's behaving himself). But seriously, they couldn't have given the world-saving mission to a less interesting guy. I don't give a shit if he kills God. Why should I? What does this mission mean for him? What personal stake does he have in the victory? What exactly is he sacrificing for it? This is also why I'm crossing my fingers that our actual main characters will have to step in when it all goes disastrously wrong. They really were laying on "savior Jack" pretty thick, even for this crew. 🤷

This season is so unremarkable. Quick, easy uneventful, solutions and sidetrips. Some hint at the unexpected, but otherwise simple minded and single minded. To loll an audience into boredom, then Big Twist, is sophomoric. The showrunner said they had written the ending and now needed to devise the way to get there. Maybe that is why this road so far seems so static. Just following the most direct route on the map for the final destination. Oh, we're here. 

[Commando Cody]

Noooo... not the nails again.

oddly enough, when Mrs. Butters first appeared, she reminded me of the god in the Christmas episode.

[Commando Cody]

I was a little skeptical when Sam and Dean took out those two vamps. They were drinking banked blood and watching movies. They didn’t come off as Sam and Dean’s regular evil monsters.

[gonzosgirrl]

31 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

Noooo... not the nails again.

oddly enough, when Mrs. Butters first appeared, she reminded me of the god in the Christmas episode.

Very much so. 

[tennisgurl]

When Sam and Dean went to fight the vampires, I actually thought that we would get a twist where the machine was sending them after every monster or anyone with supernatural powers, not just evil ones. I mean, the vampires we saw were just sitting there chilling with some Dark Shadows reruns, one was even drinking from a blood bag, and they only got hissy when Sam and Dean came in looking for a fight, did they do anything worth killing them besides existing? I know that most vampires and monsters in general are evil in the Supernatural verse, but not all of them, so I thought it would turn out that, by blindly following what the machine said out of a desire to get back into the hunting spirit, they had accidently killed non evil creatures and they would have to deal with that. It is quite on brand for the Men of Letters to just kill anything supernatural or use them like Mrs. Butters after all, whether or not they were a threat. 

1 hour ago, Commando Cody said:

oddly enough, when Mrs. Butters first appeared, she reminded me of the god in the Christmas episode.

Same here! What is it with cheerful grandmotherly supernatural creatures and pulling fingernails? 

Edited October 10, 2020 by tennisgurl

[Casseiopeia]

16 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

but damn it all if Alex isn't doing his best.

I thought this was Jacks best episode. I do feel bad for Alex. I actually think he is a good actor stuck in a bad character. Hopefully he has better opportunities after SPN.

[falltime]

It's a good thing I channel surfed through The CW channel while "Supernatural" was recording because I would have been shocked to see an hour of high school football later on. 

This covid hiatus is the longest I've gone without seeing an episode in 15 years. It took me a little bit to get used to Sam and Dean speaking, I thought they sounded weird.

When Mrs. Butters brightened the bunker, I thought to myself "Nooo, his show doesn't need to be brighter."

[Casseiopeia]

I don't know if this was brought up already but according to Jeremy Adams there was significance to the Holidays being celebrated in reverse. They also made the reset button significant. The theory I read was that maybe they figure out a way to reset time and events and Chuck back to his factory settings? 

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

I don't know if this was brought up already but according to Jeremy Adams there was significance to the Holidays being celebrated in reverse. They also made the reset button significant. The theory I read was that maybe they figure out a way to reset time and events and Chuck back to his factory settings? 

Ooooh.  Interesting.  

[foxfreakinmulder]

I didn't care for this episode, this show has fallen so far from what it once was and didn't Charlie work on that panel before? I don't buy that this whole time the bunker has been in stand-by mode.

I think the writers are super fans of Scooby doo and think they are writing for the cartoon audience. Dean wearing Scooby doo boxers and a nightgown, I don't think so.

The nest of vampires was 2 and Sam and Dean took care of them in like 3 seconds counting knocking the door down. I liked the wink to Ghostbusters but not the montage of breaking down the door, it's like an after thought the writers threw in, oh yeah, they're hunters lets have them hunt and for giggles lets through in Thor's hammer, WTF. 

In my opinion, Jared doesn't even seem to be acting anymore.

I'm happy watching seasons 1-5 I'll stick with those.

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by foxfreakinmulder

[Terese]

3 minutes ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I didn't care for this episode, this show has fallen so far from what it once was and didn't Charlie work on that panel before? I don't buy that this whole time the bunker has been in stand-by mode.

I think the writers are super fans of Scooby doo and think they are writing for the cartoon audience. Dean wearing Scooby doo boxers and a nightgown, I don't think so.

The nest of vampires was 2 and Sam and Dean took care of them in like 3 seconds counting knocking the door down. I liked the wink to Ghostbusters but not the montage of breaking down the door, it's like an after thought the writers threw in, oh yeah, they're hunters lets have them hunt and for giggles lets through in Thor's hammer, WTF. 

In my opinion, Jared doesn't even seem to be acting anymore.

I'm happy watching seasons 1-5 I'll stick with those.

 

Underacting and overacting are what the mains are left with. I cannot pretend to be directly in their shoes; but, they have lived the roles for 15 years. If many viewers are cringing, imagine what they are doing. Reduced to two-dimensional caricatures of their former selves, given little to say and less to do that isn't redundant or meaningless. Scaled down in presence and maturity to make room for Jack, an equally underdeveloped character who almost shines by comparison. 

They hunted what appeared to be monsters managing being human, or at least that was the implication with the blood bag. So far, their usefulness is in question, their skill and knowledge are unearned armor of the writers, cheap spells and devices have replaced hard work, and saving the world is entrusted to a 3 year old and those who manipulate him, while Sam and Dean have another beer. I don't know who these guys are anymore, and neither do the writers. 

 

[catrox14]

This episode was okay.  I didn't entirely dislike it.

I thought Mrs. Butters was interesting, and I thought the idea of her being stuck in the bunker was equally interesting.  I was distracted by her name being Mrs. Butters because I kept waiting to see if she had offspring named Butters...(who is a South Park character)

The only moment I thought had any kind of gravity was the scene between Dean and Jack. I was especially grateful that  Jeremy Adams didn't have Dean apologize for his feelings and that he actually gave Dean an authentic voice about Mary.  (Did Steve Yockey do some consulting with Adams before he left for good....hmmmm?).

 

I wonder if the archangel blade will appear again before the end of the season. (That was the archangel blade rshe gave to Dean to kill Jack,  right?).

I am glad the monster detector was back on standby. I also wonder if the telescope will still come back into play before it's said and done.

I don't care for the notion that the boys didn't do their laundry. We know that straight up isn't true because we've seen them at laundromats, and we have seen Dean iron Sam's shirts with beer so we know they do their laundry. I realize it gave Mrs Butters something to do, I just didn't like it. As for the bunker being dusty again, I say no to that bit because we know Dean cleans. If it was in the basement area where the standby button was..I guess that's a little better.

In summation...I give this episode an overall....meh.

 

[Aeryn13]

A  bit in the ep that was unintentionally (ironically) funny was when they went some more with the saintifying of Mary retroactively where Mrs.Butters mentioned how much of a lovely, wonderful person she must have been and Jack agreed. Well, maybe, to Jackie-poo she was. 

Overall, this would have been a very meh episode in a good Season but for Season 15 it is very decent. Mrs.Butters was a fun guest character. 

The main problem was that the ep was focused on Jack, Jack, Jack. The holiday montage for the brothers was just a little gimmick on the side. Jack had the central conflict, it was all about his little emo-state and he got the final "save the world"-message. And if he was the freaking main character of the entire show for 15 Seasons, that would be alright but he isn`t. He is a secondary character who only joined in Season 13 really. Why does he supercede everything and everyone else?    

[Castiels Cat]

19 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I thought this was Jacks best episode. I do feel bad for Alex. I actually think he is a good actor stuck in a bad character. Hopefully he has better opportunities after SPN.

I assumed Dabb would just carry him over to the new show... Resident Evil.

On 10/9/2020 at 1:53 PM, SueB said:

pretty much this.  Sam is a closer replica of previous MoL members.  

Which leads me too: The MoL must have dispatched hunters all day versus go out themselves. 

My assumption too... and yes... That's the established canon. MoL were not hunters. Grandad was squicked that they hunted.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

On 10/9/2020 at 7:40 PM, BabySpinach said:

Pleasant episode that went down easy. High praise for this season. 

The more they keep hammering away at how Jack is the only one who can save the world, the stronger vibes I get of season 11. Everything was pointing toward "kill Amara" right up until that penultimate episode, where it all went tits up and they had to scramble for a desperate, last-ditch solution that actually involved at least one of the brothers as an active agent. Similarly, there's no way that something doesn't go massively wrong at the eleventh hour with the "kill God" plan, otherwise it'd be the most linear and unexciting narrative in history. (Watch me eat my words when the finale airs lol).

Mrs. Butters was better than I expected. She didn't fall into the easy category of "bullying Dean because his pain/embarrassment is funny" camp. I definitely got the sense that she genuinely cared about them, and that all her gentle criticisms were in good faith. In other words, she wasn't a Missouri. Sam being the favorite of a fussy, old-school matronly type also tracks. The same writer had already given Dean his well-deserved dues in 15.07, so I'm okay with it.

I'll savor Dean not apologizing for his feelings for as long as I possibly can. It was good that Mrs. Butters provided an outside POV to reinforce, once again, that killing someone's mother is NOT easily forgivable nor easy to brush off. That didn't exactly last long considering she eventually cheerleaded Jack for his world-saving mission, but I'll take it.

I hate Jack the character for what he represents in the story, for how he's hogged the spotlight ever since he arrived, and for his complete lack of compelling motive or personality except "cute", but damn it all if Alex isn't doing his best. He's the only reason I can remotely stomach Nougat Boy on my screen (as long as he's behaving himself). But seriously, they couldn't have given the world-saving mission to a less interesting guy. I don't give a shit if he kills God. Why should I? What does this mission mean for him? What personal stake does he have in the victory? What exactly is he sacrificing for it? This is also why I'm crossing my fingers that our actual main characters will have to step in when it all goes disastrously wrong. They really were laying on "savior Jack" pretty thick, even for this crew. 🤷

The mission is definitely macguffin.  It's felt wrong all along. And this episode cements it with the parallels between Jack and Mrs. Butters. I think Dean knows it too. He doesn't have another plan yet. 

I agree that Alex brings something to the character. He was terrible as the demon however. 

 

On 10/9/2020 at 7:34 PM, Terese said:

Their nonchalant acceptance(mostly Dean) has been somewhat infuriating or puzzling. I don't recall them ever being inactive, uninquisitive and complacent; even when they mess up, they do it with gusto. 

I think Dean has shown signs of being iffy but he's going along to keep the peace and because he doesn't have anything better and DEATH is involved.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

8 hours ago, Terese said:

They hunted what appeared to be monsters managing being human, or at least that was the implication with the blood bag.

This was so far out of character it is ridiculous. I like Jeremy, but this is actual cartoon writing. They had the two slackers in armchairs drinking blood from a bag, because otherwise how would we even know they are vamps? Dean & Sam, seasoned hunters, were told by a stranger that it was a nest of vamps (two is not really a nest, but I digress), so they went in with machetes swinging. Out of character? Makes them seem like dumb, hired muscle? So what!! It tells the story we want to tell in the easiest, most cartoonish way possible. Makes the nougat baby the only one wise enough to question things. Done and done.

[SueB]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't care for the notion that the boys didn't do their laundry. We know that straight up isn't true because we've seen them at laundromats, and we have seen Dean iron Sam's shirts with beer so we know they do their laundry. I realize it gave Mrs Butters something to do, I just didn't like it. As for the bunker being dusty again, I say no to that bit because we know Dean cleans. If it was in the basement area where the standby button was..I guess that's a little better.

I think they clearly do their laundry, just that it's not as frequent and she doesn't like the way Dean folds his undies.  Which first - HE FOLDS HIS UNDIES.  10pts for neatness right there.  Good on him.

But... and it's DEFINITELY a personal opinion based on my life circumstances.... there can be a difference between some people's ideas of "clean" and other.   

For example:
- They were used to public laundry facilities for a long time.  To the boys, it may be 'normal' to wear a shirt more than once or a pair of jeans a couple of times.  Even Dean admitted that two pair of underwear lasts 4 days (flip them inside out).  Now that's ROAD travel, and they likely have stricter standards for daily life, but I can see underthings getting washed daily and an outer shirt going twice.  For Mrs Butters, she and her nymph nose may be sensitive to smell and thinks their musk is too strong. 
- As for dusting... well, depends on how well they dust. To my husband, cleanliness is king.  But HIS version of cleanliness is picked up and vacuumed.  The kitchen is always wiped down but I swear I have caught him VACUUMING the bathroom countertop.  No no no... that must be wiped clean with proper cleansers! (says I).  With an apocalypse always nigh, I can seen a less than perfect dusting of library shelves by the boys.  It's a BIG place. 

In short, I assumed it was her 'standards' versus 'acceptable'.  

And thank you for coming to my TED talk on the multi-verse of cleaning standards.

[Bobcatkitten]

I guess the vamps didn't bug me because they are stealing blood, which is used to - you know - save humans. 

And I didn't take it that the boys didn't do anything. They clearly do laundry and cook and keep things neat. But not to Mrs. Butters' Mary Poppins level of standard. 

[Female83]

19 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This episode was okay.  I didn't entirely dislike it.

I thought Mrs. Butters was interesting, and I thought the idea of her being stuck in the bunker was equally interesting.  I was distracted by her name being Mrs. Butters because I kept waiting to see if she had offspring named Butters...(who is a South Park character)

The only moment I thought had any kind of gravity was the scene between Dean and Jack. I was especially grateful that  Jeremy Adams didn't have Dean apologize for his feelings and that he actually gave Dean an authentic voice about Mary.  (Did Steve Yockey do some consulting with Adams before he left for good....hmmmm?).

 

I wonder if the archangel blade will appear again before the end of the season. (That was the archangel blade rshe gave to Dean to kill Jack,  right?).

I am glad the monster detector was back on standby. I also wonder if the telescope will still come back into play before it's said and done.

I don't care for the notion that the boys didn't do their laundry. We know that straight up isn't true because we've seen them at laundromats, and we have seen Dean iron Sam's shirts with beer so we know they do their laundry. I realize it gave Mrs Butters something to do, I just didn't like it. As for the bunker being dusty again, I say no to that bit because we know Dean cleans. If it was in the basement area where the standby button was..I guess that's a little better.

In summation...I give this episode an overall....meh.

 

She could have just given Dean an ordinary angel blade. Either way it wouldn't have worked since Dean isn't an archangel.  Do we know if the archangl blade works of offspring of archangels?

[Castiels Cat]

23 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This was so far out of character it is ridiculous. I like Jeremy, but this is actual cartoon writing. They had the two slackers in armchairs drinking blood from a bag, because otherwise how would we even know they are vamps? Dean & Sam, seasoned hunters, were told by a stranger that it was a nest of vamps (two is not really a nest, but I digress), so they went in with machetes swinging. Out of character? Makes them seem like dumb, hired muscle? So what!! It tells the story we want to tell in the easiest, most cartoonish way possible. Makes the nougat baby the only one wise enough to question things. Done and done.

Yes... it was jarring. I think it was supposed to be jarring. IMO. That was the point. It was too easy just being told this is what you do and that definitely felt wrong 

I think it's foreshadowing for the Jack scenario. Too easy and they are just following along although personally I think Dean is just playing along for now. He didn't like it from the get go but they had nothing. 

 

The other big WTF moment. Sam in the chair being tortured. That reminded me of the earlier episode when Chuck had Sam. Both times Dean breaks in and talks. With Butters he uses reason. With Chuck... he just established himself as Chuck's nemesis. They callback to it in the SPPT promo... "How are you still like this?" All along it's been Chuck having a conversation with Dean and Dean just bit back. 

Sam in the chair being tortured... not just HURT!Sam. It's More foreshadowing...

Just my opinion.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[gonzosgirrl]

I think what bugs me most about this episode is that they have lived in the bunker for the better part of seven years, and the idea that they wouldn't have explored and investigated every inch of it by now is ludicrous. Especially after Dorothy and the magic doorway to Oz. I mean yeah, okay, given Cuthbert's abilities, I could believe in secret doorways (he made his whole mansion invisible), but surely they would have at least questioned the GIANT RED AND GREEN "PUSH ME" BUTTONS on the control panel. Like maybe when they were trapped in there by Evol!Mary and Ketch? Off all Badd's myriad offences, the dumbing down of the Winchesters to support his pets or his canon-of-the-week is among the most egregious.

[Katy M]

35 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I could believe in secret doorways (he made his whole mansion invisible), but surely they would have at least questioned the GIANT RED AND GREEN "PUSH ME" BUTTONS on the control panel. Like maybe when they were trapped in there by Evol!Mary and Ketch?

That was my big question.  They had nowhere to go and had to figure out how to get out.  They would have explored everything and hitting a reset button would seem like an obvious potential solution. But, this is the only episode I can say I really really liked, so I'll let it pass.  The way to have fixed that problem would have been pretty easy, though.  One, she could only remain in suspended animation for so long without reanimating. Or, two, that a pipe burst and let her out at the same time.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Katy M

[Terese]

9 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Yes... it was jarring. I think it was supposed to be jarring. IMO. That was the point. It was too easy just being told this is what you do and that definitely felt wrong 

I think it's foreshadowing for the Jack scenario. Too easy and they are just following along although personally I think Dean is just playing along for now. He didn't like it from the get go but they had nothing. 

 

The other big WTF moment. Sam in the chair being tortured. That reminded me of the earlier episode when Chuck had Sam. Both times Dean breaks in and talks. With Butters he uses reason. With Chuck... he just established himself as Chuck's nemesis. They callback to it in the SPPT promo... "How are you still like this?" All along it's been Chuck having a conversation with Dean and Dean just bit back. 

Sam in the chair being tortured... not just HURT!Sam. It's More foreshadowing...

Just my opinion.

I'm not sure what you mean by Dean not liking it from the get go and just playing along. Dean, unfortunately, has been shown accepting with no hint of thinking otherwise. Sam mentioned his distrust of Billie and cited the Malak Box. Dean dismissed his concerns by saying that Billie was right about Rowena.

[BoxManLocke]

On 10/11/2020 at 2:36 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

This was so far out of character it is ridiculous. I like Jeremy, but this is actual cartoon writing. They had the two slackers in armchairs drinking blood from a bag, because otherwise how would we even know they are vamps? Dean & Sam, seasoned hunters, were told by a stranger that it was a nest of vamps (two is not really a nest, but I digress), so they went in with machetes swinging. Out of character? Makes them seem like dumb, hired muscle? So what!! It tells the story we want to tell in the easiest, most cartoonish way possible. Makes the nougat baby the only one wise enough to question things. Done and done.

 

Well Dabb wrote a few months back that it was totally fine if a warehouse full of seemingly integrated monsters got blown up to smithereens just because they committed the crime of watching or participating in an underground fight club.

 

The show lost any form of subtlety under Dabb's reign so Jeremy Adams is just going with that. But at least you can see in his writing that he has heart, so his episodes still feel somewhat fresh.

Edited October 12, 2020 by BoxManLocke

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, Terese said:

I'm not sure what you mean by Dean not liking it from the get go and just playing along. Dean, unfortunately, has been shown accepting with no hint of thinking otherwise. Sam mentioned his distrust of Billie and cited the Malak Box. Dean dismissed his concerns by saying that Billie was right about Rowena.

His questioning of Jack about killing Angels and eating their hearts... Maybe it's the way Jensen played it... I think Dean is just going along for now... 

The other explanation is that Chuck is writing them dumb as bricks.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think what bugs me most about this episode is that they have lived in the bunker for the better part of seven years, and the idea that they wouldn't have explored and investigated every inch of it by now is ludicrous. Especially after Dorothy and the magic doorway to Oz. I mean yeah, okay, given Cuthbert's abilities, I could believe in secret doorways (he made his whole mansion invisible), but surely they would have at least questioned the GIANT RED AND GREEN "PUSH ME" BUTTONS on the control panel. Like maybe when they were trapped in there by Evol!Mary and Ketch? Off all Badd's myriad offences, the dumbing down of the Winchesters to support his pets or his canon-of-the-week is among the most egregious.

This was hard to stomach. 

Couldn't they have written a hidden button that they found by dropping something and Dean just pushes it or something and thinks nothing happened because she pops up in the kitchen to start afternoon tea.

[Terese]

10 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

His questioning of Jack about killing Angels and eating their hearts... Maybe it's the way Jensen played it... I think Dean is just going along for now... 

The other explanation is that Chuck is writing them dumb as bricks.

I'm pretty sure Dabb is writing them dumb as bricks; and complacent, uninquisitive, childish and boring. If I first stumbled across this show today, I wouldn't watch it. Although Jack and Kaia look pretty cool by comparison. I'd probably watch a show with them in it. You know, a spinoff, anything but Sam and Dean, who are written by Dabb to bore me to tears.

[gonzosgirrl]

On 10/11/2020 at 12:21 PM, Bobcatkitten said:

I guess the vamps didn't bug me because they are stealing blood, which is used to - you know - save humans. 

And I didn't take it that the boys didn't do anything. They clearly do laundry and cook and keep things neat. But not to Mrs. Butters' Mary Poppins level of standard. 

She wrinkled her nose as if they smelled bad when she mentioned the laundry.

[Bergamot]

3 hours ago, Terese said:

Dean, unfortunately, has been shown accepting with no hint of thinking otherwise.

It's been a while since I watched those March episodes (and I only watched them once because I didn't like them.) But that's not what I remember seeing. Dean was not all: "I absolutely and unequivocally trust Billie!!" and I didn't see him "dismiss Sam's concerns." He said he believed in Billie, but refused to use the word "trust" in relation to her. He kind of shrugged, said "I don't know", said that she "probably" knew what she was doing.

And Sam on his part was not all: "NO DEAN, you must not trust Billie!!" He said, "All I'm saying is, I wish we knew more". To which Dean responded, "Yeah, I got questions too, but right now this is the only plan we got." Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

So I don't see any great significance in their conversation. The way it stands now, Billie has a plan. Jack has chosen to trust Billie and carry out her plan. Castiel announces that he will trust Billie as well, because he trusts Jack, and makes a point of crowing about being right about Jack saving the world. And don't forget that when Jack decides to go after Kaia, Sam is the one who protests, "But what about Billie's plan?"  Yet somehow Dean is the one who is at fault for being too trusting? Doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, the main reason I didn't think it was important what Dean thought is that the show has made it very clear that this is now the Jack Story. I find it hard to believe that anything Dean does or doesn't do is going to make a difference. It is all about Jack now. (Of course, if Dabb can make Dean be completely unimportant and yet still have everything that goes wrong somehow be his fault, I have no doubt that he will. It would be the best of both worlds for him.)

[Terese]

2 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

It's been a while since I watched those March episodes (and I only watched them once because I didn't like them.) But that's not what I remember seeing. Dean was not all: "I absolutely and unequivocally trust Billie!!" and I didn't see him "dismiss Sam's concerns." He said he believed in Billie, but refused to use the word "trust" in relation to her. He kind of shrugged, said "I don't know", said that she "probably" knew what she was doing.

And Sam on his part was not all: "NO DEAN, you must not trust Billie!!" He said, "All I'm saying is, I wish we knew more". To which Dean responded, "Yeah, I got questions too, but right now this is the only plan we got." Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

So I don't see any great significance in their conversation. The way it stands now, Billie has a plan. Jack has chosen to trust Billie and carry out her plan. Castiel announces that he will trust Billie as well, because he trusts Jack, and makes a point of crowing about being right about Jack saving the world. And don't forget that when Jack decides to go after Kaia, Sam is the one who protests, "But what about Billie's plan?"  Yet somehow Dean is the one who is at fault for being too trusting? Doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, the main reason I didn't think it was important what Dean thought is that the show has made it very clear that this is now the Jack Story. I find it hard to believe that anything Dean does or doesn't do is going to make a difference. It is all about Jack now. (Of course, if Dabb can make Dean be completely unimportant and yet still have everything that goes wrong somehow be his fault, I have no doubt that he will. It would be the best of both worlds for him.)

I wouldn't say it is Dean's fault. I only remember the more recent episode, either Galaxy Brain or Destiny's Child. Sam expresses distrust for Billie and cites the Malak Box as an example. Dean says, "Well, she was right about Rowena." The conversation ended. Neither were motivated, apparently, to continue. Neither is gungho about anything, or inquisitive, alarmed, persistent about anything. Mostly they just stand around or sit around waiting for others to pop in and then stuff sort of happens or not.

[gonzosgirrl]

Sam often expresses doubt/skepticism about things, but he rarely asserts himself. Instead he huffs and rolls his eyes and goes along, then everyone blames Dean when things go south. It happened again in this episode. He had doubts, Dean had cautious optimism (we'll enjoy having something good for once, until we can't, and then we'll fix it). Technically, Sam was 'right' to have doubts, but once again he allowed himself to be swayed from them.