S01.E05: Chapter 5

[Door County Cherry]

Airs July 19, 2020:

Quote

While Mason (Matthew Rhys) and Della (Juliet Rylance) run a solemn errand up north, Strickland (Shea Whigham) tracks down the sergeant originally assigned to the Dodson case. Before returning to L.A., Mason drops in on his ex-wife Linda (Gretchen Mol) and son Teddy (Cooper Friedman), hoping to make amends for his recent shortcomings. Disturbed by Emily's (Gayle Rankin) blind faith in Sister Alice (Tatiana Maslany) and her new lawyer, Frank Dillon (Matt Malloy), Della sets out to find Mrs. Dodson more capable legal representation.

Written by Eleanor Burgess; directed by Deniz Gamze Ergüven.

 

[ebk57]

I have no deep analysis to impart here (and I do enjoy everyone's deep analysis), but I have to say that ending was The Best Thing Ever!!

I'm really enjoying this show so far. 

[dramachick]

Game on!

I'll be back after I watch The Alienist.

[cardigirl]

Well, farewell, EB! I did enjoy that Ian Lithgow played EB's son. He sounds so much like his father. 

[Broderbits]

Excellent casting of Justin Kirk as Hamilton Burger! I hope he becomes a regular in season 2.

[sistermagpie]

The only thing better than Justin Kirk is surprise Justin Kirk! I love him. Made up for the lack of Legally Blonde cramming montage before Perry took the bar. I like how they established how good he is at righteously ranting.

The stuff with his son is frustrating because it seems kind of shoving in a modern parenting plot so he can be a deadbeat dad on top of everything else (one who can't manage to ever be sober when he interacts with him) and it feels like dead weight I wish they'd just drop. When he said to his wife the thing about not remembering why she said she'd marry him I thought the same thing--it seems like this woman was always his ex-wife. But Gretchen Mol certainly played the part well. It just, again, seems really modern--it's the Depression and her sister's sitting in this super comfortable looking house wondering why Perry doesn't have a good middle class job like her husband when it just seemed so very common back then for kids to live with other people. Plus it frankly seems like the only reason they don't live with Perry at his house is that his ex didn't want to live there with him--understandable, but still seems very modern. As does his wife telling him he's no longer the kids' father because he's not spending quality time with him. ETA: Also woman in the Depression complaining that her ex-husband has a legal job of which she doesn't approve. WTF?

Though I guess that's also true of EB's grown adult son furious that his dad who lives in LA probably isn't talking about him and his grown adult sister.

36 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

Well, farewell, EB! I did enjoy that Ian Lithgow played EB's son. He sounds so much like his father. 

And looked like him! Loved seeing him there.

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by sistermagpie

[paigow]

Ironic that Burger helped create his future nemesis...

Holcomb looks less guilty / evil now...maybe he is just covering up but not part of the actual murder

ETA: I knew there would be insurance fraud...but missed on where the money was going...

Edited July 20, 2020 by paigow

[Door County Cherry]

37 minutes ago, Broderbits said:

Excellent casting of Justin Kirk as Hamilton Burger! I hope he becomes a regular in season 2.

I would imagine he will be if he succeeds in taking over for Barnes (which I would bet he does).  Of course, he then goes on to never win against Mason which might lead to him constantly regretting his assistance to Mason.

So Della facilitated Mason's law degree with a bit of forgery.

The only thing I regret is that the episode didn't end on us seeing "Mason Perry for the defense." 

I keep forgetting to mention how much I enjoy the old timey font in the title card.  

 

[EtheltoTillie]

What a great episode!  So sorry to see EB really dead, and Della had to find him. Della is really a power behind the throne. She knows everyone and everything, including how to get Perry admitted to the bar, and to fake the affidavit. And to find a “tutor” for the bar exam. 

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, cardigirl said:

Well, farewell, EB! I did enjoy that Ian Lithgow played EB's son. He sounds so much like his father. 

I had totally forgotten Lithgow had a son who was also an actor. It took me a few seconds of marveling how much the guy looked and sounded like E.B. before I remembered, of course, it's Leon from 3rd Rock from the Sun!

[Vella]

The stuff with Paul and Clara was really interesting too. The show is set in 1932 and yet the passionate speech given by the minister could easily be echoed today and his words are just as relevant.  Agitation, not quiet acceptance is what produces change.  Fighting for what is right, pushing back does so much more than ever patiently 'proving' your worthiness of being treated fairly.  It was not as flashy as the rest of the episode, but it was powerful. Paul stating that being a cop didn't mean anything, the fury and disappointment in his voice, that single tear sliding down the side of his face? Chris Chalk is amazing.  I loved that the bullshit at the beach changed Clara too.  Can't wait for Paul to start working with Perry.

Loved the revelation about Pete being a former vice detective, I don't think that was spoken of before in the show.  His own disgust at Ennis trying to sell out Holcomb.  I like the recurring theme about people having a code, a certain kind of integrity they won't sell or break for anything.

I like that the show is not afraid to show that Perry is a shitty father.  He contributes NOTHING to his child's upbringing during a depression, leaving his ex-wife, who would have very few means of supporting herself and her son, and yet blusters about being Teddy's father and just sort of shows up or calls whenever the thought occurs to him. Too many shows try to suggest otherwise, that the ex is being unfair or mean or petty, when really, she is the only grown up in the equation and she is the one doing all the heavy lifting.

And of course, we see all the ways and means of how Della is a powerhouse. She'd make a great attorney, but here's another woman living in a time where what she would be permitted to do is very limited. Walking away from family, wealth and protection?  I loved that revelation about her.

[scrb]

OK so he crammed for the bar and passed?  Hmm, if we're to believe the bar wasn't that difficult to pass back then?

Why not Della?  She seems to be more savvy on legal matters than Perry is.  She left home because her father wouldn't let her go to college.  But she didn't go to law school?

They're going to win this case because of a confluence of factors, like the black cop probably testifying in their favor and then a Deputy DA wanting his boss to lose so he could take his job.

Not because of Perry's legal brilliance or the ability to conjure up dramatic arguments in court?

This isn't how Perry became a lawyer in the books or the old show, right?

Rhys is a good actor but he has some verbal mannerisms which he repeats from other roles.  At some places, he sounded just like Philip Jennings, not just in his voice but the way he changed the tempo of his lines.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Love the dramatc irony of Ham Burger facilitating the legal career of the guy who ends up nearly batting 1000 against him, but it doesn't really make much sense. Burger has a vested interrest in his current boss winning the case so he will vacate the office and clear a path to take over. That plus he hints that he would be willing to let loose with secrets that he overhears from being downstairs from him. Putting aside that there would be ethical concerns for doing so and the risk of being fired, I'm not sure what Burger gains from helping Perry out. 

[nilyank]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

OK so he crammed for the bar and passed?  Hmm, if we're to believe the bar wasn't that difficult to pass back then?

 

Well for all of Perry's personal problems, he seems to be a bright guy and Burger stated that the bar exam has not changed in years. So Perry had the questions and had enough time to research the answers especially if Della helped.

Edited July 20, 2020 by nilyank

[sistermagpie]

26 minutes ago, Vella said:

Too many shows try to suggest otherwise, that the ex is being unfair or mean or petty, when really, she is the only grown up in the equation and she is the one doing all the heavy lifting.

Would any show in 2020 actually suggest that the parent who's raising the kid is being petty or mean when she scolded the parent who only drops in out of the blue or calls drunk once in a while and doesn't even pay child support? That's part of why to me the whole story-line pasted on from modern shows. Of course he's a terrible father. Every single character not only agrees he's a terrible father but they agree from a 2020 perspective.

4 minutes ago, scrb said:

Why not Della?  She seems to be more savvy on legal matters than Perry is.  She left home because her father wouldn't let her go to college.  But she didn't go to law school?

Presumably Della wouldn't be able to retroactively claim she was doing an apprenticeship? But mostly because she's a woman, I guess. Given how the show isn't afraid to be somewhat anachronistic they'll have to explain why Della herself doesn't want to be a lawyer herself.

5 minutes ago, scrb said:

Not because of Perry's legal brilliance or the ability to conjure up dramatic arguments in court?

I don't know the original series well at all, but surely evidence and testimony played into things there too, right? I assumed that Della got the idea for making Perry a lawyer because he was conjuring up a dramatic argument right in front of her.

7 minutes ago, scrb said:

Rhys is a good actor but he has some verbal mannerisms which he repeats from other roles.  At some places, he sounded just like Philip Jennings, not just in his voice but the way he changed the tempo of his lines.

Maybe that comes with his American accent when he's doing one. LOL.

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, scrb said:

OK so he crammed for the bar and passed?  Hmm, if we're to believe the bar wasn't that difficult to pass back then?

that was the whole point of the meeting with Hamilton Burger. The exam hadn't changed in X # of years, he was able to give Perry the questions and presumably the answers.

[dramachick]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Love the dramatc irony of Ham Burger facilitating the legal career of the guy who ends up nearly batting 1000 against him, but it doesn't really make much sense. Burger has a vested interrest in his current boss winning the case so he will vacate the office and clear a path to take over. That plus he hints that he would be willing to let loose with secrets that he overhears from being downstairs from him. Putting aside that there would be ethical concerns for doing so and the risk of being fired, I'm not sure what Burger gains from helping Perry out. 

The character of Hamilton Burger is a zealous prosecutor who cares about the pursuit of justice against worthy adversaries on a level playing field. His boss is corrupt and is trying to railroad a woman, which would be against everything Burger stands for. But more importantly, if Mason wins the case, it will weaken the DA politically, and provide an opening for Burger to run for DA.

Pete's got a code. Burger's got a code.

“A man gotta have a code.” -- Omar Little

[thuganomics85]

Damn, a part of me was hoping last week was a set-up for Della to find E.B. and save him, but it ends up being too late and he is already dead.  At least John Lithgow got to have a final (?) appearance as a corpse!  But he really did a great job making me like the character enough to feel sad about his death, and buy that he had an impact on both Perry and Della.

It goes without saying that this cast is pretty much perfect in every way, but Juliet Rylance really is becoming a scene-stealer here.  Della's reaction to finding E.B.'s body was heartbreaking.  But it was awesome how she never lost sight about making sure Emily was still taken care of, and continue to find ways to be a step ahead of most everyone.  And on a more fun note, the banter between her and Perry continues to be hilarious and entertaining.  Really feels like Matthew Rhys and Rylance have found a groove now, and I'm looking forward to more of it!

Of course, the big thing going forward is that Perry is now a lawyer!  Surprised it is already happening, because I figured they were setting things up for it to happen during the season finale.  But I guess they want him to be the one to defend Emily and have this be his first big case.  Good thing the bar didn't get updated back then!  And while I have little knowledge of the previous Perry Mason installments, the reveal of the "Hamilton Burger" name definitely felt like it carried some importance, so I'm not surprised to read more about what his deal is in previous posts.  Justin Kirk seems like he'll be a good fit here.

Sister Alice sure went all small time tent revival in the big church!  Still not sure what to make of her, as she seems to clearly want to support and be there for Emily, but also seems to truly believe that she is going to "revive Charlie", which is just crazy.  And while a lot of the churchgoers seems to be buying into it, it even looks like Mother might be starting to turn against her.  Curious to see where this goes.  Tatiana Maslany was really having a ball in her final scene (even speaking in tongues!)

Finally got to meet Perry's ex-wife and actually see Gretchen Mol on screen, instead of just hearing her over the phone!

Chris Chalk did some excellent work with just looks and reactions to the injustice Drake had to deal with.

Love Pete continuing to assist Perry despite not being paid, because he was offended over Ennis' lame attempts to muddy the water AND trying to buy him off with a prostitute.  Hey, Pete might be a philandering jerk a lot of times, but he's got some lines he won't cross, dammit!

[shapeshifter]

28 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Of course, the big thing going forward is that Perry is now a lawyer!  Surprised it is already happening, because I figured they were setting things up for it to happen during the season finale

Yes, but we’re all thrilled it happened now, right?

Clever to appease us with Justin Kirk in the same episode in which we have to accept the demise of E.B. 
 

When Emily asks if they will need to dig up Charlie’s body to resurrect him, Alice’s look conveys that is not how it’s done.

[Door County Cherry]

3 hours ago, scrb said:

This isn't how Perry became a lawyer in the books or the old show, right?

I don't think it's ever said how he becomes a lawyer in the books or previous show.

 

[Enigma X]

I don’t find it hard to believe that Perry, who has been working with a lawyer for years and is very smart, would not be able to pass the bar exam even if it had changed. I mean some people are that quick witted in some things. Again, he has also been exposed to the profession for years.

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, dramachick said:

The character of Hamilton Burger is a zealous prosecutor who cares about the pursuit of justice against worthy adversaries on a level playing field. His boss is corrupt and is trying to railroad a woman, which would be against everything Burger stands for. But more importantly, if Mason wins the case, it will weaken the DA politically, and provide an opening for Burger to run for DA.

Pete's got a code. Burger's got a code.

“A man gotta have a code.” -- Omar Little

Granted, Raymond Burr Perry Mason (RBPM or OG Perry) 's Burger was always portrayed as upstanding and fair. But he prosecuted literally hundreds of innocent people for murder who were saved from the gas chamber solely becaue they hired Perry Mason. There can almost be no doubt that he has sent some poor innocent saps to San Quentin and elsewhere because those saps didn't have the luck/foresight/resources to hire Perry. I certainly haven't seen all 700 or so episodes of OG Perry, but I don't think there was a single case where the client was not white and not middle or upper class. Presumably Burger has not experienced a moment's reflection on it. I don't really hold him up as an exemplar for ethics, at least judging him with my 2020 vision.

In terms of HBO, I don't know yet if we know know that the head D.A. is actually corrupt as opposed to self-interested. We the audience side with the theory that has been presented that there's something more going on here,  because we have genre expectations that Perry almost always defends the innocent and because as E.B. speculated there would be no need for the D.A. to smear him if he had the fullest confidence in his case. But it could be that E.B. was wrong, or that the D.A. is just being a zealous advocate not unlike RBPM Burger. 

I don't think we have been presented with information that shows that HBO Burger thinks Emily's being railroaded, or that helping Perry pass the bar to defend her is the best way to make sure that she gets a fair defense or particularly to get the DA to lose. Surely  it would be easier to show that the DA is colluding with Emily's court-appointed counsel than to put your hopes in a rookie defense attorney with an alcohol problem.

Also, as RBPM and real life show, losing a high-profile case or two doesn't mean that the head D.A. is vulnerable, or that of all the people who might be in the running to replace him, Burger would be particularly well positioned to do so. The D.A. would still have the benefits of name recognition, incumbency and money. Burger would to some extent not have as much success criticizing the D.A. as an outsider would. A way easier way would be to help the D.A. win the case and pave the way for his ascent to higher office, and get his blessing to be next in line.

Finally, it should be said that telling Perry the Bar Exam questions is pretty shady IMO. Not just, "You should study this aspect of property law, that aspect of criminal law, because they have questions on those every year," but literally "The Bar has had this particular question for the last seven years." 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Chicago Redshirt

[TexasGal]

11 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Well, farewell, EB! I did enjoy that Ian Lithgow played EB's son. He sounds so much like his father. 

I had no idea that was his son until I saw his name go by in the end credits while I was waiting for I'll Be Gone in the Dark to start.  I wondered if they had John doing the voice for some reason that was beyond me.

7 hours ago, dramachick said:

The character of Hamilton Burger is a zealous prosecutor who cares about the pursuit of justice against worthy adversaries on a level playing field. His boss is corrupt and is trying to railroad a woman, which would be against everything Burger stands for. But more importantly, if Mason wins the case, it will weaken the DA politically, and provide an opening for Burger to run for DA.

Pete's got a code. Burger's got a code.

“A man gotta have a code.” -- Omar Little

Oh, Omar.

Sister Alice seems to really believe in her powers.  While there are the obvious historical comparisons, I think so far she's not being shown as a scam artist.  Her mother may be a different story.

So we have 2 more episodes to go?  

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, Enigma X said:

I don’t find it hard to believe that Perry, who has been working with a lawyer for years and is very smart, would not be able to pass the bar exam even if it had changed. I mean some people are that quick witted in some things. Again, he has also been exposed to the profession for years.

Doing some Googling, it looks like California only instituted its state bar in 1927. 

I of course can't speak to the nature of the California Bar in the 1930s as such, but I think it would be really hard, if not impossible, for even a smart person who had been working for an attorney for years to pass a bar given only two weeks of time to study.

Working for an attorney would give you exposure to a handful of aspects of the law -- say wills and trusts, or personal injury or property, whatever general or specific areas that attorney works in. The bar is going to test numerous areas that attorney doesn't work in. And even in the areas where the person would have a basic familiarity with the concepts, there could be more asked about those subjects than the test-taker would be ready for.

[Enigma X]

I had no idea that the guy playing EB's son was Lithgow's actual son, but I was thinking while watching him that it was great casting.

[Enigma X]

5 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Doing some Googling, it looks like California only instituted its state bar in 1927. 

I of course can't speak to the nature of the California Bar in the 1930s as such, but I think it would be really hard, if not impossible, for even a smart person who had been working for an attorney for years to pass a bar given only two weeks of time to study.

Working for an attorney would give you exposure to a handful of aspects of the law -- say wills and trusts, or personal injury or property, whatever general or specific areas that attorney works in. The bar is going to test numerous areas that attorney doesn't work in. And even in the areas where the person would have a basic familiarity with the concepts, there could be more asked about those subjects than the test-taker would be ready for.

Since in reality I have heard of very smart people doing the absolute least with no exposure passing certain tests, for me it is not unbelievable that Perry could pass. Maybe I am wrong but am still going with it.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Enigma X

[cardigirl]

Favorite quote, “The way I see it, there's what's legal and there's what's right.” It's right up there with "Cops investigating cops? That's a trip for biscuits."

Also, I didn't realize that the dead woman eaten by her now dead cat was the nosy neighbor from episode 2 who talked about drowning kittens, until I read a review.  Wonder what else she saw that warranted her being killed? 

[shapeshifter]

38 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

...Finally, it should be said that telling Perry the Bar Exam questions is pretty shady IMO. Not just, "You should study this aspect of property law, that aspect of criminal law, because they have questions on those every year," but literally "The Bar has had this particular question for the last seven years." 

I really appreciated your entire post, @Chicago Redshirt, but I quibble with this last bit. Is it possible that at that time (and maybe still) that insider information on passing the bar is par for the course? Knowing what to expect and being able to correctly give the answers when asked are not the same. 

[khyber]

11 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Well, farewell, EB! I did enjoy that Ian Lithgow played EB's son. He sounds so much like his father. 

As soon as I heard the voice I knew it was Lithgow's kid. Its amazing how much he sounds like his dad.

[paigow]

2 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I really appreciated your entire post, @Chicago Redshirt, but I quibble with this last bit. Is it possible that at that time (and maybe still) that insider information on passing the bar is par for the course? Knowing what to expect and being able to correctly give the answers when asked are not the same. 

Maybe after Burger lost his 5000th case against Perry, he set up a fake alias of Kaplan and published LSAT study guides and ran tutoring classes...

[shapeshifter]

6 minutes ago, paigow said:

Maybe after Burger lost his 5000th case against Perry, he set up a fake alias of Kaplan and published LSAT study guides and ran tutoring classes...

Hah! For once I get your learned, esoteric humor, @paigow, but only because a daughter taught LSAT classes 15 years ago when she was fresh out of undergrad. 
However, although these prep classes and materials for the LSAT came to my mind too, I assumed that the Bar exam is a horse of a different color, so to speak.

[Chicago Redshirt]

36 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Since in reality I have heard of very smart people doing the absolute least with no exposure passing certain tests, for me it is not unbelievable that Perry could pass. Maybe I am wrong but am still going with it.

For sure real, smart people could pass the bar with limited study time. But taking it cold with only two weeks to prepare? There's too much material for that to be feasible IMO. But then, I am probably overly influenced by concepts behind a modern bar, where testing is done over 2-3 days and it's graded on a curve such that it is literally impossible for there to be a 100 percent pass rate.

A simpler test that was given orally by a judge might be easier for a rookie to talk his way through with minimal prep. 

28 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I really appreciated your entire post, @Chicago Redshirt, but I quibble with this last bit. Is it possible that at that time (and maybe still) that insider information on passing the bar is par for the course? Knowing what to expect and being able to correctly give the answers when asked are not the same. 

Even if it's par for the course, that doesn't make it right, any more than kicking black people off the beach for "overcrowding," attempting to buy off people with free groceries and hookers, etc. etc. 

Being told the questions in detail would allow Perry to spend time studying those specific legal issues and map out detailed answers in a way that the average joe who is taking the test would not be able to. Instead of having to study a dozen aspects of a dozen fields in the law, Perry only has to be ready for (say) 7 aspects total. And that's assuming Burger didn't also just straight up give him the answers, which he very well may have. Or that, armed with the knowledge that the Bar hadn't changed in 7 years, Perry didn't just track down a recent person who passed and get the questions/answers from him.  

In the modern era, it would be impossible to pull this because each bar exam is changed up every time it is administered (typically twice a year). 

[TexasGal]

6 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

For sure real, smart people could pass the bar with limited study time. But taking it cold with only two weeks to prepare? There's too much material for that to be feasible IMO. But then, I am probably overly influenced by concepts behind a modern bar, where testing is done over 2-3 days and it's graded on a curve such that it is literally impossible for there to be a 100 percent pass rate.

A simpler test that was given orally by a judge might be easier for a rookie to talk his way through with minimal prep. 

 

I had a bigger problem with him taking it and knowing he'd passed in enough time to help with this case.  It took months for my bar results to come in.  I'm sure they had fewer people (coughMENcough) taking the test then, and as you say if it was done one on one with a judge they could know faster I guess. 

Because I forgot in my first post, I want to add to the chorus of YAY JUSTIN KIRK!

[Chicago Redshirt]

45 minutes ago, paigow said:

Maybe after Burger lost his 5000th case against Perry, he set up a fake alias of Kaplan and published LSAT study guides and ran tutoring classes...

Knowing Burger's luck, Perry would start up a rival prep class and drive him out of business! 

26 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Hah! For once I get your learned, esoteric humor, @paigow, but only because a daughter taught LSAT classes 15 years ago when she was fresh out of undergrad. 
However, although these prep classes and materials for the LSAT came to my mind too, I assumed that the Bar exam is a horse of a different color, so to speak.

It's been a while since I took the LSAT and the Bar so my info may be out of date, plus different states handle the bar differently.

But generally speaking the LSAT has basically nothing to do with the law as such. The LSAT took about 5-6 hours and had a section about reading comprehension similar to what's on the SAT, a section on arguments, the logic games section and a writing test. Yes, one needs to read and write and understand arguments and logic to do well in law school or as a lawyer, but the way that the LSAT tessts these things doesn't really correspond much IMO with how one does in law school or as a practicing lawyer.

The modern bar generally consists of two days' worth of testing that can have questions over like a dozen areas of the law.  There's typically a multiple choice section, a section where you are given several legal problems to analyze, and a section where you have to do some sort of legal writing like a memo. 

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 minutes ago, TexasGal said:

I had a bigger problem with him taking it and knowing he'd passed in enough time to help with this case.  It took months for my bar results to come in.  I'm sure they had fewer people (coughMENcough) taking the test then, and as you say if it was done one on one with a judge they could know faster I guess. 

Because I forgot in my first post, I want to add to the chorus of YAY JUSTIN KIRK!

I could buy that the results would be in within a week or so of taking the exam, just with the smaller numbers of people taking the test and the (presumed) less complicated nature of it.  And of course in modern real life, a murder case will take a year or more to get to trial, and I wouldn't be surprised if one back then would. 

But now that you bring it up, the show didn't establish what the court-appointed dude was doing all this time. I guess we'll see how they get him off the case next week.

[LGraves65]

Quote

Doing some Googling, it looks like California only instituted its state bar in 1927. 

I have a letter in my possession, dated 1922, where my great-grandfather wrote to his father, a circuit judge, about the absolute mortification he feels about having to take a examination to become a lawyer.  "...if a certain amount of preliminary education or certain course of legal study is to be the standard of admission to the bar, or, as the National Bar Association is now advocating, a complete college course, then indeed will the profession of the lawyer cease to be what it is now, namely, the bulwark of the Constitution and of the nation.  It will lose its democratic ideals entirely, and hearken back to the old oligarchical theories of the Middle Ages." 

(He did begrudgingly take it, and went on to be a successful trial lawyer.)

I felt so bad for Della, finding EB, then having to undress him and dress him in his pajamas just so insurance would pay.  *shudder*  

[shapeshifter]

5 minutes ago, LGraves65 said:

I have a letter in my possession, dated 1922, where my great-grandfather wrote to his father, a circuit judge, about the absolute mortification he feels about having to take a examination to become a lawyer.  "...if a certain amount of preliminary education or certain course of legal study is to be the standard of admission to the bar, or, as the National Bar Association is now advocating, a complete college course, then indeed will the profession of the lawyer cease to be what it is now, namely, the bulwark of the Constitution and of the nation.  It will lose its democratic ideals entirely, and hearken back to the old oligarchical theories of the Middle Ages."

Very cool!! I hope you have digitized it and saved it in at least 2 places. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Enigma X said:

Since in reality I have heard of very smart people doing the absolute least with no exposure passing certain tests, for me it is not unbelievable that Perry could pass. Maybe I am wrong but am still going with it.

 

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

For sure real, smart people could pass the bar with limited study time. But taking it cold with only two weeks to prepare? There's too much material for that to be feasible IMO. But then, I am probably overly influenced by concepts behind a modern bar, where testing is done over 2-3 days and it's graded on a curve such that it is literally impossible for there to be a 100 percent pass rate.

A simpler test that was given orally by a judge might be easier for a rookie to talk his way through with minimal prep. 

 

Being told the questions in detail would allow Perry to spend time studying those specific legal issues and map out detailed answers in a way that the average joe who is taking the test would not be able to. Instead of having to study a dozen aspects of a dozen fields in the law, Perry only has to be ready for (say) 7 aspects total. And that's assuming Burger didn't also just straight up give him the answers, which he very well may have. Or that, armed with the knowledge that the Bar hadn't changed in 7 years, Perry didn't just track down a recent person who passed and get the questions/answers from him.  

In the modern era, it would be impossible to pull this because each bar exam is changed up every time it is administered (typically twice a year). 

That's why I do appreciate that he's basically cheating his way through it. It seems a nod to the idea that even with a simplified test (and I assume it was way simpler) it should take longer than 2 weeks to prepare for it.

24 minutes ago, LGraves65 said:

I have a letter in my possession, dated 1922, where my great-grandfather wrote to his father, a circuit judge, about the absolute mortification he feels about having to take a examination to become a lawyer.  "...if a certain amount of preliminary education or certain course of legal study is to be the standard of admission to the bar, or, as the National Bar Association is now advocating, a complete college course, then indeed will the profession of the lawyer cease to be what it is now, namely, the bulwark of the Constitution and of the nation.  It will lose its democratic ideals entirely, and hearken back to the old oligarchical theories of the Middle Ages." 

(He did begrudgingly take it, and went on to be a successful trial lawyer.)

 

This is awesome.

[dramachick]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Granted, Raymond Burr Perry Mason (RBPM or OG Perry) 's Burger was always portrayed as upstanding and fair. But he prosecuted literally hundreds of innocent people for murder who were saved from the gas chamber solely becaue they hired Perry Mason. There can almost be no doubt that he has sent some poor innocent saps to San Quentin and elsewhere because those saps didn't have the luck/foresight/resources to hire Perry. I certainly haven't seen all 700 or so episodes of OG Perry, but I don't think there was a single case where the client was not white and not middle or upper class. Presumably Burger has not experienced a moment's reflection on it. I don't really hold him up as an exemplar for ethics, at least judging him with my 2020 vision.

The Perry Mason show was made in the 50s and 60s, so of course the characters were mostly white. And the name of the show was Perry Mason, which means that it was about the greatness of Perry Mason just like the Lucy show was about Lucy. We're talking about a TV show. And the fact that a prosecutor does their job and convicts people does not make them unethical. 

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

In terms of HBO, I don't know yet if we know know that the head D.A. is actually corrupt as opposed to self-interested. We the audience side with the theory that has been presented that there's something more going on here,  because we have genre expectations that Perry almost always defends the innocent and because as E.B. speculated there would be no need for the D.A. to smear him if he had the fullest confidence in his case. But it could be that E.B. was wrong, or that the D.A. is just being a zealous advocate not unlike RBPM Burger. 

An example of the DA's corruption was his collusion with the cops to elicit a confession from Emily through violence and intimidation. He threatened E.B. because he wants an easy conviction, preferably a plea. I consider self-interest over the truth to be corruption.

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Also, as RBPM and real life show, losing a high-profile case or two doesn't mean that the head D.A. is vulnerable, or that of all the people who might be in the running to replace him, Burger would be particularly well positioned to do so. The D.A. would still have the benefits of name recognition, incumbency and money. Burger would to some extent not have as much success criticizing the D.A. as an outsider would. A way easier way would be to help the D.A. win the case and pave the way for his ascent to higher office, and get his blessing to be next in line.

I said it provided an opening for Burger. Lyle told Della that the case was a career-ender. It is huge. All eyes are on it. If a novice lawyer beats the experienced DA, the novice becomes legend. Who knows what Burger's campaign might look like: "Current DA is a loser, I'm a winner, vote for me. And I'm better looking." If Burger just wanted to go along to get along, he wouldn't be helping Mason.

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Finally, it should be said that telling Perry the Bar Exam questions is pretty shady IMO. Not just, "You should study this aspect of property law, that aspect of criminal law, because they have questions on those every year," but literally "The Bar has had this particular question for the last seven years." 

I don't see it as being that much different from the bar review course I took, for which I paid hundreds of dollars. Perry's getting a personalized course for free.

[dramachick]

4 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Favorite quote, “The way I see it, there's what's legal and there's what's right.” It's right up there with "Cops investigating cops? That's a trip for biscuits."

Also, I didn't realize that the dead woman eaten by her now dead cat was the nosy neighbor from episode 2 who talked about drowning kittens, until I read a review.  Wonder what else she saw that warranted her being killed? 

I totally missed that about the dead lady! I was wondering why they spent screen time on it. Thanks!

[dramachick]

1 hour ago, LGraves65 said:

I have a letter in my possession, dated 1922, where my great-grandfather wrote to his father, a circuit judge, about the absolute mortification he feels about having to take a examination to become a lawyer.  "...if a certain amount of preliminary education or certain course of legal study is to be the standard of admission to the bar, or, as the National Bar Association is now advocating, a complete college course, then indeed will the profession of the lawyer cease to be what it is now, namely, the bulwark of the Constitution and of the nation.  It will lose its democratic ideals entirely, and hearken back to the old oligarchical theories of the Middle Ages." 

(He did begrudgingly take it, and went on to be a successful trial lawyer.)

I felt so bad for Della, finding EB, then having to undress him and dress him in his pajamas just so insurance would pay.  *shudder*  

Very cool to have that letter!

[Chicago Redshirt]

8 minutes ago, dramachick said:

The Perry Mason show was made in the 50s and 60s, so of course the characters were mostly white. And the name of the show was Perry Mason, which means that it was about the greatness of Perry Mason just like the Lucy show was about Lucy. We're talking about a TV show. And the fact that a prosecutor does their job and convicts people does not make them unethical. 

An example of the DA's corruption was his collusion with the cops to elicit a confession from Emily through violence and intimidation. He threatened E.B. because he wants an easy conviction, preferably a plea. I consider self-interest over the truth to be corruption.

I said it provided an opening for Burger. Lyle told Della that the case was a career-ender. It is huge. All eyes are on it. If a novice lawyer beats the experienced DA, the novice becomes legend. Who knows what Burger's campaign might look like: "Current DA is a loser, I'm a winner, vote for me. And I'm better looking." If Burger just wanted to go along to get along, he wouldn't be helping Mason.

I don't see it as being that much different from the bar review course I took, for which I paid hundreds of dollars. Perry's getting a personalized course for free.

It is not unethical for a prosecutor to try people he has a good faith belief in their guilt, which RBPM Burger of course did.  However, I would say it would be unethical after some point to not re-evaluate why he has prosecuted so many factually ninnocent people. I mean, after like 100 cases where he tried innocent people for murder, to be like, "eh, I guess I was wrong again" seems like way too muted a response.

Yes, RBPM was a product of the 50s and beyond, so almost all the characters were white. It's pretty much a given IMO that the office would have off-screen prosecuted others, some of whom would have been minority and poor, some of whom would be convicted despite being innocent.

I don't remember specifically if the DA's office was involved directly in the interrogation of Emily. if it just turned a blind eye toward it, or even if it knew about it. AFAIK, it was only detectives who were present for the interrogation and there's no explicit evidence that the D.A.s office knew about it.

E.B.'s speculation that the D.A.'s office was leaning on him is just that, speculation. It could be that the D.A. was using a sleazy tactic but with the full belief it was serving a higher good. RBPM Burger had their share of leaning on Perry and Paul because both often were guilty of lawbreaking/bending in the pursuit of justice. (They broke and entered, delayed reporting deaths to the cops, futzed with evidence, etc.)

Unless you were extremely lucky, the bar review course you took did not feature the actual questions from the actual test that you would be taking. Saying stuff like "There will likely be an essay question about contracts and these other subjects because analyzing past exams there have typically been questions about those subjects" is a different thing from saying "There are definitely going to be these exact 7 questions (or however many) because for the past 7 years, they have used the exact same bar exam and I happen to have a copy." I don't see how getting a detailed list of the actual questions on the exam in advance (let alone the actual answers) isn't cheating. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, dramachick said:

I don't see it as being that much different from the bar review course I took, for which I paid hundreds of dollars. Perry's getting a personalized course for free.

That's my interpretation until/unless we learn differently in-show. I see Burger's tutoring as the 1930s equivalent of a modern bar review course. But I am not a lawyer and do not play one on TV.

However, regarding:

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

it should be said that telling Perry the Bar Exam questions is pretty shady IMO

--the meeting between Perry and HamBurger did seem pretty clandestine. But maybe it was just so that Perry can show up ready to take the case before the evil doers can find some way to thwart him. 

[sistermagpie]

50 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It is not unethical for a prosecutor to try people he has a good faith belief in their guilt, which RBPM Burger of course did.  However, I would say it would be unethical after some point to not re-evaluate why he has prosecuted so many factually ninnocent people. I mean, after like 100 cases where he tried innocent people for murder, to be like, "eh, I guess I was wrong again" seems like way too muted a response.

I take it to be a lot like the fact that somebody always gets murdered whenever Jessica Fletcher shows up and nobody starts to wonder if she's somehow behind the murders. You just pretend Perry and Burger are even somehow despite knowing Perry's going to win except for that one time that's a Trivial Pursuit answer.

50 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Unless you were extremely lucky, the bar review course you took did not feature the actual questions from the actual test that you would be taking. Saying stuff like "There will likely be an essay question about contracts and these other subjects because analyzing past exams there have typically been questions about those subjects" is a different thing from saying "There are definitely going to be these exact 7 questions (or however many) because for the past 7 years, they have used the exact same bar exam and I happen to have a copy." I don't see how getting a detailed list of the actual questions on the exam in advance (let alone the actual answers) isn't cheating. 

But then, now that I think about it, is it really that much of a cheat since anybody who ever took the exam would be able to share the questions they got? Presumably that's why the modern bar exam changes things up. If Perry had failed the test the first time and was taking it again he'd have the same information.

47 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

--the meeting between Perry and HamBurger did seem pretty clandestine. But maybe it was just so that Perry can show up ready to take the case before the evil doers can find some way to thwart him. 

I get the impression Burger was protecting himself more than Perry, or at least as much as Perry. He doesn't want anybody to know he was undermining his boss's case.

[EtheltoTillie]

Gee, thanks a lot, fellow lawyers, for reviving my bar exam memories.  Yikes!  I took the NY bar 25 years ago next week.  My friends and I took a two-month review class to prepare.   It took till late November to get the results.  We still had to handwrite our essays in bluebooks (a few years ago, they switched to allowing you to use a computer).  (The exam was canceled this year, of course.)

I'm handwaving the easy study-cheat-pass thing--it was a different era.   The idea they wouldn't change the questions from year to year is ridiculous.

I saw they were setting Perry up to be an able courtroom advocate with a flair for the dramatic speech (a neat parallel to Sister Alice).  Also, in episode 1, he was shown knowing more about evidence rules and objections than the attorney representing him on whatever it was he was dealing with, can't remember now. So he's been around the law for a few years, and Della recognized he could do it.

Edited July 20, 2020 by GussieK

[EtheltoTillie]

P.S.   Yes, it was a form of cheating, but they had already set up a forged affidavit for him to even get to take the exam.  But they set us up to accept this earlier in the episode with Perry's mantra: "there's what's legal and then there's what's right."  

As a lawyer, I'm actually kind of appalled at any of this.  It's so ingrained that you can't do things like cheat on tests and forge documents.  But people clearly do it and other bad stuff.    

My love for Matthew Rhys allows me to accept anything!  After all, he killed so many people on The Americans.

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 minutes ago, GussieK said:

P.S.   Yes, it was a form of cheating, but they had already set up a forged affidavit for him to even get to take the exam.  But they set us up to accept this earlier in the episode with Perry's mantra: "there's what's legal and then there's what's right."  

As a lawyer, I'm actually kind of appalled at any of this.  It's so ingrained that you can't do things like cheat on tests and forge documents.  But people clearly do it and other bad stuff.    

Everything gets the Hollywood treatment so things have to have more sizzle and controvery in them than in real life. Lawyers cutting corners is more interesting than filing the same old motion for blah blah that they do every day.

Somehow I feel like the forging the affidavit is more excusable and more a white lie than getting the detailed questions (and possibly answers) he would have on the bar exam. 

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

--the meeting between Perry and HamBurger did seem pretty clandestine. But maybe it was just so that Perry can show up ready to take the case before the evil doers can find some way to thwart him. 

Actually, the meeting was at a diner with other people around, so not so much with the clandestine, even though there's no particular reason for the average joe to listen to or understand blah blah blah rule against perpetuities blah blah blah strict liability. 

59 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But then, now that I think about it, is it really that much of a cheat since anybody who ever took the exam would be able to share the questions they got? Presumably that's why the modern bar exam changes things up. If Perry had failed the test the first time and was taking it again he'd have the same information.

I get the impression Burger was protecting himself more than Perry, or at least as much as Perry. He doesn't want anybody to know he was undermining his boss's case.

I believe in the modern era, you sign off on a statement to not discuss at least some of the questions. Not that they could practically enforce that.

But the notion that lots of people could/do share what specifically was going to be on the exam doesn't make it any less a cheat. 

[paigow]

Burger: Ethics? Not on the test.. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by paigow

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

-the meeting between Perry and HamBurger did seem pretty clandestine. But maybe it was just so that Perry can show up ready to take the case before the evil doers can find some way to thwart him. 

38 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Actually, the meeting was at a diner with other people around, so not so much with the clandestine, even though there's no particular reason for the average joe to listen to or understand blah blah blah rule against perpetuities blah blah blah strict liability

But weren’t they wearing their fedoras pulled low while they ate in a booth? That seems a bit clandestine. 😉

BTW, the fedora kept me guessing as to whether or not that was really Justin Kirk. 

 

 

8 hours ago, TexasGal said:

So we have 2 more episodes to go? 

3 more, 8 total (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perry_Mason_(miniseries)) which is pretty normal these days for this type of show. 

[Jodithgrace]

I think this show should have been called Della Street, instead of Perry Mason, since she's the one who gets it done! Of course, then the non OG Perry Mason watchers would think it was an address. 

I seem to remember reading books, where a person would become a lawyer by apprenticing with an old  lawyer or judge and basically learning everything from him before hanging out his own shingle. Before everything became so official. Hopefully, the California Bar Association will eventually catch on that repeating the same test year after year is not a good idea. 

So now we have the original gang, Perry, Della, Paul and Ham Burger (his name always made me laugh as a kid) together. I would like to think that after this case, Mason would either go to law school or study law in some manner. I can't imagine the look on Raymond Burr's face if he knew that his dignified Perry Mason had only a gimcrack law degree!