S01.E10: ... said I'm sorry

[HappyBerry]

15 hours ago, Enginerd said:

If we get to make wishes for the next season (fingers crossed it can happen sooner rather than later), can we find out what's going on with Eric? That poor kid. So far he seems to be just a random side bit that makes me sad. His constant eating and asking for food, and lack of discrimination as to what he eats to the point it makes him sick, is not funny. Surely they can't be treating this person as a stupid fat joke, right? I want this show to be smarter than that. But clearly there is more to that story; this is not a happy large kid who just loves to eat. He's miserable. He looks like he's in great emotional pain and compulsively seeking food rather than enjoying it. I will say, the actor is doing a great job conveying depth and complexity in a bit part.

Yeah. That was the one big problem I had with this show. We have all these complex, complete characters and then there is the "haha, fat kid that likes food". I really hope we get to learn more about him and that there is more to him than a fat joke.

[Paloma]

On 5/2/2020 at 1:23 PM, truthaboutluv said:

I'm not Team Devi/Ben or Team Devi/Paxton because I think this season and 90% of Devi's actions were all about her having to deal with her grief over her father's death. Devi doesn't need a boyfriend. She needed to deal with her emotional shit that she was running away from. So in that respect, I wasn't shipping her with either guy. 

IMO, Devi doesn't really know Paxton. She got to know a little more about him, meeting his sister and all that but she doesn't know him enough to truly into him like that. Ben she only got to know a bit more, especially when he opened up to her mom and came to their home for dinner. But prior to that she'd spent years just hating his guts and therefore not interested in his life.

And at the end, I felt like Devi's feelings for Ben were more gratitude for everything he'd done for her (giving her a place to stay, getting her friends back in her life, driving her to Malibu), which was nice of him. So she saw this really nice guy who was there for her when she really needed it, who by now she knew was into her, since he tried to kiss her twice at his party and figured why not. But I saw no indication of Devi being into Ben prior to that, while it was clear Ben had long been into Devi. 

And I just don't see the show doing away with the Devi/Paxton storyline entirely if there is a second season. Paxton may be the pretty boy, popular guy with some douchy tendencies as his sister pointed out, but I do think he proved himself to be a nice guy many times throughout the season. And honestly, I didn't blame him for pulling away from Devi after the way her mom went off on him. 

Dude is a teenager. No matter how hot and popular, everyone has their insecurities. And to have someone, an adult no less basically all but tell him he's a moron whose only talent is in hooking up with girls, (and didn't help that Devi first reached out to him just to have sex with her), yeah I can see how that stung and made him not want to be around Devi. Because if he didn't feel dumb around her before based on how book-smart she is,, her mother once again all but calling him dumb as fuck, pretty much solidified that. 

Great analysis!

[dreamcatcher]

On 5/1/2020 at 2:59 AM, dubbel zout said:

I think Ben and Devi won't last because of (1). They seemed to genuinely dislike each other until the dinner at Devi's house, and I don't see the competitiveness abating. I also think Devi kissed Ben because she's in a very vulnerable spot emotionally, and he gave her the space she needed from her mom. I don't think Paxton is any prize, either, as he's very concerned how other people see him. But maybe they'll end up in a Xander/Cordelia sort of thing.

Well he is concerned, but it’s also realistic for a teenage boy. Meanwhile, he’s super protective of his sister, he is always publicly supporting Devi and didn’t deny her rumor, which any popular guy would have done just to preserve his reputation. I like that he seems more layered than that.

On 5/2/2020 at 9:07 AM, Irlandesa said:

I can't really predict an end game, though.  I think both sides of the triangle have been written with both flaws and rootable qualities.

I think her endgame would be leaving for Prinston as a single college freshman to be honest. They might go for the “Ben ended up at Prinston too” or “going long distance with Paxton”, but I think I’d rather see her work on herself and realize that she has more to aim for in a sense. And I think that’s what they are building towards since the therapist kept trying to get her to work on herself, her friends told her pretty much the same thing and so on. We’ll see!

On 5/3/2020 at 3:28 AM, MerBearStare said:

Maybe they'll do family therapy next season. They could use it.
 

I could SO get behind this! These scenes would be hilarious, all 3 actresses are amazing.

On 5/7/2020 at 3:14 AM, VMepicgrl said:

Meanwhile, Paxton reminds me of Chad Michael Murray. Not in looks, but in voice and acting choices/mannerisms. It was jarring. But guess I was the only one to think so nice no one else has mentioned it. 

THAT’S IT. I couldn’t pinpoint it but you’re so right. Now all I can picture is Chad during his OTH/Cinderella Story years.

On 5/20/2020 at 7:22 AM, Enginerd said:

If we get to make wishes for the next season (fingers crossed it can happen sooner rather than later), can we find out what's going on with Eric? That poor kid. So far he seems to be just a random side bit that makes me sad. His constant eating and asking for food, and lack of discrimination as to what he eats to the point it makes him sick, is not funny. Surely they can't be treating this person as a stupid fat joke, right? I want this show to be smarter than that. But clearly there is more to that story; this is not a happy large kid who just loves to eat. He's miserable. He looks like he's in great emotional pain and compulsively seeking food rather than enjoying it. I will say, the actor is doing a great job conveying depth and complexity in a bit part.

Thank you for this. Honestly, this show is probably the most inclusive/diverse we’ve ever seen, yet somehow they slipped in the “fat guy” joke? I can’t say i appreciated the “joke” with the Greek student who of course stole from them and tried to seduce the mom. These two almost made me regret watching the show, but it really is good for a teen show.

[Paloma]

This episode was a perfect ending to a wonderful series that fulfilled the cliche "You'll laugh, you'll cry." Although I wasn't a fan of Ben in the beginning and wasn't thrilled about the Ben/Devi/Paxton triangle setup, I liked that both boys were actually decent human beings who could care about Devi. But I worry that a triangle in season 2 will end up hurting everyone, and I think I'd rather see Ben and Devi as friends.

As I said (at great length) in another thread, I could relate to the mother-daughter issues and had empathy for Nalini. When she, in trying to explain her feelings and behavior to Devi, said "I was so scared" (or similar words), that struck me in the heart because that was exactly why I tried to control every aspect of my daughter's life. I loved her so much and was always worried about her health, safety, and success in school and other aspects of life. My husband, in contrast, was the fun parent who rarely said no and tried to be the peacekeeper. My relationship with my daughter is fine now, since I have learned to let her live her own life as an adult and to just be there for support if needed, but it's not easy to let go when the daughter is a teenager taking risks and making poor, potentially harmful choices.

I wasn't expecting the McEnroe cameo and loved it. It was a final answer to the question "Why use John McEnroe as narrator for a teenage girl's life?" and added to the meaningful tribute to Mohan, both because Mohan was such a big fan of JM and because JM's loud yell allowed Devi to get there in time to say good-bye to her dad and reconcile with her mom.

[dubbel zout]

Did we ever find out why Devi wants to go to Princeton specifically? Did her dad go there?

[riprock]

5 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Did we ever find out why Devi wants to go to Princeton specifically? Did her dad go there?

I don’t think there was anything mentioned... I had been thinking that it’s an Ivy that’s as geographically far from SoCal as possible, but as I reply I realize that Harvard is even farther. 
 

totally loved this show. To hit on a point that others haven’t covered in the topic, Mohan has real charisma and I loved how he was used. Such a treat to see him interact with Devi, her mom, and both of them together. And can the actress actually play the harp?? It was beautiful.

I think Ben needs Devi because they’re intellectual equals and his home life is so lonely, while Paxton only wants Devi because he's curious and his sister's opinion matters to him.

[Paloma]

10 hours ago, riprock said:

I think Ben needs Devi because they’re intellectual equals and his home life is so lonely, while Paxton only wants Devi because he's curious and his sister's opinion matters to him.

Devi is attractive as well as smart and not afraid to say what she thinks, so they could both like her for those reasons. They also can both sense her vulnerability underneath the tough facade, and Ben and Paxton would both respond to that because they are each vulnerable for different reasons. 

[HappyBerry]

If this were real life/tv fantasy mash-up, the end game should be "Devi and Ben realize that right now is not the right time for them. Devi dates Paxton...he's the hot "bad boy", so can have experienced that, and while he appreciates her intelligence, I think he would also just let her be a normal teenager sometimes, which someone like her needs when everyone around her is pushing. Then, in a few years, Devi and Ben reconnect at their 10 year reunion. They have their PhD/passed the bar...whatever. That's when they can go on and be a power cuouple. 

[HerkyJerky]

Does anyone remember "Life Goes On" from 30 years ago?  (Gawd, I'm old!) That was the show that the main character, Corky, had Down Syndrome.  Anyway, his sister, Becca (a really cute Kellie Martin) was about the same age as Devi and she, just like Devi, tried to get together with the hot boy in class.  After many trials and tribulations (just like Devi), they did end up together because it turned that he had a sister that also had Down Syndrome.  I LOVED that show!

[bettername2come]

I got goosebumps during the “Beautiful Day” ashes spreading. Nice use of deus ex McEnroe.
 

Devi’s got a real dilemma here. Two boys who are nice and care about her and help her when she’s in trouble. One of whom is very rich and smart, the other attractive and athletic. She really can’t lose. In terms of love triangles, it’s a pretty believable one.
 

Rebecca’s a good sister. And I appreciated Devi calling her a friend and that Rebecca was totally up for getting her a job at Old Navy. It’s not her fault Devi would probably suck at customer service.

I’m really glad I heard a random NYT Digest article on Audible today about John McEnroe being the voice of teen angst. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by bettername2come

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, bettername2come said:

deus ex McEnroe

Hee. The NYT recently had a short article on how McEnroe became the narrator. (It's nothing new from what's been written elsewhere.) He still can't quite believe he's the inner voice for a teenage girl.

ETA: @shapeshifter posted a link in the Media thread.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ben was really nice to let Devi stay at his house. The Doobie Brothers guest room cracked me up. And the luxury of using a dishwasher! When I was a kid, my family moved into a new house that came with a dishwasher and my parents would not let us use it so my sister and I had to hand wash the dishes every night in the sink (while standing right next to the untouched dishwasher).

Part of me was glad that Nalini and Devi felt ready to scatter Mohan's ashes. Mr. EB's grandparents died about 15 years ago. His aunt (the daughter of the grandparents) refused to scatter the ashes because she said she wasn't ready yet. This went on for over 10 years until the aunt died too. There's nothing wrong with not scattering ashes, for the record, but she kept saying she would do it when she was ready and she kept putting it off and putting it off.

But for the record, legally you must be three miles from land in order to scatter ashes. When my friend's dad died, we had to rent a boat so that we could scatter his ashes. You can't just go to the beach and dump them in the water due to EPA regulations.

I am not sure where the Devi/Paxton/Ben love triangle will go from here. Honestly, I think that Devi is a teenage girl and her longer obsession with Paxton will win out in the short term, especially since he called her and wanted to hang out. If not for that, I could see her maybe wanting to date Ben but that would be complicated by the fact that he's still dating Shira. I guess they could sneak around and then have fraught conversations about how they can't keep doing this and it's not right to do this to Shira, etc.

But since Paxton contacted Devi, I think that will greatly influence her decision. Sure, Ben has been nice to her for about a week but he's just the guy she's been competing with forever. Paxton, on the other hand, is her dream guy and I think she will willingly put one kiss with Ben behind her if she thinks she has any chance at all to be with Paxton. Most high school girls will choose Jordan Catalano over Brian Krakow if given the choice.

Edited June 2, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Enginerd]

I think Ben would break up with Shira in about 0.3 seconds if he thought he could have a girlfriend who actually likes him...or at least respects him...or at least pays attention to him. It's pretty clear they don't like each other. Heck, maybe even just making out with Devi could give him a little boost of confidence to decide he doesn't need to put up with someone as horrible as Shira.

Dating ANYONE leaves lots of room for drama, though, given that Nalini has forbidden Devi to date. Maybe Devi should pretend to date someone really horrible and then her mom will see anyone she actually wants to date as acceptable in comparison. I still can't believe how rude Nalini was to Paxton. Way to model maturity and good manners. I understand she was mad at Devi for going to the party, but that's no reason to tell a kid she doesn't even know that he's an idiot.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 hours ago, Enginerd said:

I think Ben would break up with Shira in about 0.3 seconds if he thought he could have a girlfriend who actually likes him...or at least respects him...or at least pays attention to him. It's pretty clear they don't like each other. Heck, maybe even just making out with Devi could give him a little boost of confidence to decide he doesn't need to put up with someone as horrible as Shira.

I don't know if he would break up with Shira that easily though. He's still a high school boy and he has to live in that stratified social structure. Without Shira he is just a big nerd. Shira is a popular and pretty girl who is also an athlete. His connection to her is why many people tolerate him. Without her, he is at the bottom of the social ladder like Devi. As much as he might want a girlfriend who actually likes him and pays attention to him, he would have to give up the small amount of social standing he has if he dumps Shira. And if he breaks up with her, he will bear all the blame which will not make him look good. I'm not saying it's right to stay with her when they clearly don't really like each other, but he's a high school kid so I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

[Enginerd]

I don't get the impression that Ben craves "popularity" nearly so much as he craves attention and connection. But I certainly don't understand high school boys.

[Jillibean]

On 5/23/2020 at 4:28 PM, dreamcatcher said:

Thank you for this. Honestly, this show is probably the most inclusive/diverse we’ve ever seen, yet somehow they slipped in the “fat guy” joke? I can’t say i appreciated the “joke” with the Greek student who of course stole from them and tried to seduce the mom. These two almost made me regret watching the show, but it really is good for a teen show.

I’m stuck on this also. I loved, loved, loved this show and binged it pretty quickly, but this one thing makes me hesitate to recommend it to others. Why do we have fat shaming right in the middle of this otherwise very diverse and aware show?

I spent most of the season thinking I really liked both love interests, which is really unusual for me (I usually pick a lane and stick to it). The finale confirmed for me that I’m definitely more Team Ben, but I still like Paxton a lot also. I love that this popular, attractive guy was portrayed as truly kind. He might have told his sister that his hesitation about Devi was the difference in their social status, but we all know from watching that it wasn’t, really. 
Still, hate-to-love is one of my favorite tropes and I thought it was really executed well here, with my only complaint being that Ben was a shade too mean in the first couple of episodes. I knew from the first nasty thing he said that he was the love interest, though, and I was here for it. 
I too loved Gears, but I think my favorite side character was Trent. 

[Irlandesa]

Ben is a rich kid with absentee parents who don't particularly sweat him having people over.  I don't think he needs Shira to have entree to popular social circles.  The fact that he can host parties should be able to do that for him if he wants or even by leveraging his dad's connections for cool experiences.  It doesn't sound like this school is an "everyone has money" type of place.

I agree that what he craves is closer one-on-one friendships/relationships.  He can't buy those or get those through Shira. 

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

even by leveraging his dad's connections for cool experiences. 

He seems to have tried that, but either the experiences aren't cool enough, or he's that ignored/disliked.

[Enginerd]

Also, being with Shira doesn't seem to have done anything for his social status. She may see herself as a cool influencer type, but most of the other kids seem to be indifferent to her or dislike her. Being able to host a party was a bigger deal.

My own high school experience, which was a long time ago and of course not the same as everyone's, was that most of the kids didn't necessarily want to be part of one main "popular" group or a star amongst the whole school. They wanted to be well-liked and feel like they were valued and belonged among the particular subgroup of people who shared their interests and style.

[Paloma]

On 6/3/2020 at 2:01 PM, Irlandesa said:

It doesn't sound like this school is an "everyone has money" type of place.

I actually thought most people in the school had money (though not as much as Ben's family) because it is in Sherman Oaks, CA, which I've always thought was an wealthy area. I've never been there, and the basis of my belief is that my aunt and uncle, who were considered the "rich" members of the family, left our small town in NJ to move there a few decades ago.  But I just did a quick Google search, and this article seems to confirm my impression: https://www.rentcafe.com/blog/cities/los-angeles-ca/a-quick-guide-to-living-in-sherman-oaks-los-angeles/ 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 hours ago, Paloma said:

I actually thought most people in the school had money (though not as much as Ben's family) because it is in Sherman Oaks, CA, which I've always thought was an wealthy area. I've never been there, and the basis of my belief is that my aunt and uncle, who were considered the "rich" members of the family, left our small town in NJ to move there a few decades ago.  But I just did a quick Google search, and this article seems to confirm my impression: https://www.rentcafe.com/blog/cities/los-angeles-ca/a-quick-guide-to-living-in-sherman-oaks-los-angeles/ 

The sitcom black-ish is set in Sherman Oaks as well and the family is depicted as pretty wealthy with a lot of disposable income (although their house is nowhere as fancy as Ben's).

I always associate Sherman Oaks with the 80s movie Valley Girl!

[auntiemel]

I lived near Sherman Oaks, and worked in Sherman Oaks, for about ten years. It's pretty damn ritzy. 🙂 But it immediately borders Van Nuys and the larger North Hollywood area, and those are...not so much. 😄 So, depending on how the lines are drawn and what the overflow situation is at any given time, there could be kids going to the school who don't have as much money.

ETA: There's also a big perceived ritziness divide between those that live north of Ventura Blvd or south of it. Basically, if you live in the "hills" or the "flatlands." But, damn, when everyone's house cost at least a million bucks, aren't we kinda just splitting hairs? 😂

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by auntiemel

[HerkyJerky]

I'm (FINALLY!) watching The Night Of and it was bugging me about where I had seen the mother before. Then I realized she's the mom in Never Have I Ever!  (Talk about two GREAT shows that are totally different...)

[possibilities]

On 4/30/2020 at 12:47 PM, shapeshifter said:

If there is a second season, am I correct in thinking that nothing we saw could prevent Paxton turning out to be gay from being a reveal rather than a retcon?

I never thought of that, so I don't think it was hinted at in show, but if they go that way, I wouldn't consider it a retcon, just a surprise. There are certainly kids who pursue heterosexual relationships because it's kind of expected, even if their hearts aren't in it. 

On 5/1/2020 at 12:19 AM, SeanC said:

 

The beach scene was very well-acted, but I kind of feel like this mother/daughter reconciliation (and Dr. Vishwakumar's earlier scene with the therapist) kind of ducked the meat of Devi's anger at her mother, namely, that she seemed to have been completely fed up with her even before the dad died -- whereas this made it seem like the dad's death was the root of everything.

I thought it was a revelation and explained SO MUCH about Devi, that it wasn't just losing her dad, but even worse and more traumatic was realizing that her mother was done with her, basically told her dad she didn't want her and was washing her hands of her, before dad died. So she not only lost her dad, she thinks her mother doesn't love her at all, and she's become insecure that she could be completely abandoned at any moment.

It makes sense she'd decide suddenly to pursue popularity and find a boyfriend to replace her father. It all would have been perfectly plausible for any random teen to suddenly be boycrazy and/or rebellious, or for her to react that way to the traumatic loss of her father. But the decision to lose her virginity in meaningless sex on essentially the first date with a guy who she knows doesn't even  like her... it's a lot. And her turning away from being honest with and there for her friends at the same time, it just made more sense to me when we saw that her mother had been not just exasperated but had bluntly said she washes her hands, Devi's not her daughter anymore and dad can raise her... the night he died.

 

On 5/1/2020 at 10:08 AM, dubbel zout said:

 

So the immediate issue is probably resolved, but the resentment and anger Devi has toward her mom isn't. And I think that's tied up with Devi's grief, which she hasn't properly dealt with. Accepting it is a big step, but she's got more work to do.

 

I honestly think the rift between Devi and her mother was glossed over way too much, and that grief over losing her dad is not the source of her problems so much as finding out her mother's rejection of her. I hope season 2 does more to deal with that.

On 5/2/2020 at 1:23 PM, truthaboutluv said:

IMO, Devi doesn't really know Paxton. 

---

to have someone, an adult no less basically all but tell him he's a moron whose only talent is in hooking up with girls, (and didn't help that Devi first reached out to him just to have sex with her), yeah I can see how that stung and made him not want to be around Devi. Because if he didn't feel dumb around her before based on how book-smart she is,, her mother once again all but calling him dumb as fuck, pretty much solidified that. 

 

I was surprised that working on the school project together didn't turn her off to Paxton. Even as a teenager, the total mismatch in terms of how they functioned academically vs her own booksmarts would have been a turn off. He's nice to her sometimes, but he'd bore her in any conversation. She had to work at being tactful on the project, not to insult him and Trent, and that kind of thing gets exhausting really fast. 

I also dislike the enemies become lovers trope, but at least she and Ben have more in common.

I do like that both boys are actually nice to her, and not abusive jerks. That's a big improvement in terms of teen romantic tropes. She doesn't actually like a bad boy.

Her complaint with Ben was that he was threatening to her ambition to be ranked #1 in everything. I really like that she and her friends made no apology about their ambitions and didn't want to look dumb and non-threatening to appeal to boys.

Also, even outside of the "professional rivalry" she didn't like Ben because he  was mean and insulting to her-- she had to learn to fight back, and go on the attack, it was Ben who was calling her and her friends names. Until she resolved to learn how to defend herself, it looks like he was going out of his way to insult them, even aside from competing academically. I guess that makes him more of a bad boy than Paxton, until they tried to redeem him. But at least she didn't like him until he kind of made amends and earned it.

 

On 5/20/2020 at 12:22 AM, Enginerd said:

If we get to make wishes for the next season (fingers crossed it can happen sooner rather than later), can we find out what's going on with Eric? That poor kid. So far he seems to be just a random side bit that makes me sad. His constant eating and asking for food, and lack of discrimination as to what he eats to the point it makes him sick, is not funny. Surely they can't be treating this person as a stupid fat joke, right? I want this show to be smarter than that. But clearly there is more to that story; this is not a happy large kid who just loves to eat. He's miserable. He looks like he's in great emotional pain and compulsively seeking food rather than enjoying it. I will say, the actor is doing a great job conveying depth and complexity in a bit part.

I agree 100%. I actually thought maybe Eric isn't getting food at home, and that's why he wanted the leftovers from the bake sale. Fat does not necessarily mean over fed. It can be a case of eating quantities of cheap filling carbs and other junk food because you can't access or afford the healthy stuff. 

On 6/1/2020 at 9:18 PM, Enginerd said:

 I still can't believe how rude Nalini was to Paxton. Way to model maturity and good manners. I understand she was mad at Devi for going to the party, but that's no reason to tell a kid she doesn't even know that he's an idiot.

I thought Nalini probably had no idea whether Paxton was smart or not, but just pegged him as the bad boy who was taking advantage of her young, troubled, idiot daughter. She would have called any boy that showed up with her daughter's dress an idiot. I'm not justifying that behavior at all, clearly it's not true and it's insulting to both him and to Devi, but I think that it would not have stung another kid as much as it stung Paxton. Ben, for instance, would have not been insecure about his intellect and would have totally seen it as a parental freak out and not an adult insight into his worth. Even Trent, who is the dimmest character on the show, probably would have let it roll off him, because he doesn't really care about "being dumb". Again, Nalini was wrong to behave that way, but it's a specific issue for Paxton that it landed the way it did.

 

[twoods]

I just rewatched season one and this episode still made me cry. The beach scene was perfect and very emotional. Plus I forgot what a big part Ben was for Devi mending her relationship with her friends and mom. I am definitely on team Ben now, despite him being a jerk to her in the beginning.

[Scarlett45]

I really liked this show and the writing was amazing. I will be caught up before season 3 arrives. 
 

I do have to say I find it a bit unrealistic how damn DISRESPECTFUL and mouthy Devi is to her elders. I think it would’ve been better to have her do voice overs/internal monologue, because if don’t know any teen who could speak that way to their mother and continue to live, with a cell phone no doubt.