S05.E09: Bad Choice Road

[PeterPirate]

Random thoughts during a re-watch.

Early in the episode it was important to Jimmy that Kim not be "in the game", and Kim promised she wouldn't talk to Lalo again.  Oh, the irony.  

Jimmy's reaction to the juicer reminds me of the scene back in 102(!) when he had the same reaction to the sound of snapping breadsticks.  That scene is also a reminder that Jimmy had whatever it takes to get dates with good-looking women.

Kim told Lalo to use a "wire transfer" the next time he wanted to move $7 million.  More irony. 

10 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I don't think Gus' over the top response to Mike about Nacho has been touched on much here.  I can't figure out if his ire was about how much he despises Nacho's disloyalty or how much he does not want Mike making suggestions on how to handle his people, or both.  He was really tense, though.  More than usual, and tense is kind of his middle name, but he usually keeps a lid on it.  Or was he making a show to Mike of 'don't even think of leaving this job?'  Probably all of the above, but he really got steamed.  

I think Gus' harshness springs from Nacho's attempt to kill Hector, which almost derailed Gus' own plans to exact revenge on the cartel.  Also, Hector and the cartel no longer pose a threat to Hector's dad--Gus does.  

[ahmerali]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

I don't think Gus' over the top response to Mike about Nacho has been touched on much here.  I can't figure out if his ire was about how much he despises Nacho's disloyalty or how much he does not want Mike making suggestions on how to handle his people, or both.  He was really tense, though.  More than usual, and tense is kind of his middle name, but he usually keeps a lid on it.  Or was he making a show to Mike of 'don't even think of leaving this job?'  Probably all of the above, but he really got steamed.  

I think Gus is just being pragmatic. He still needs Nacho as a double agent, at least until Lalo is neutralized. Ideally, he would like to keep him around to manage Tuco as well.

If anyone is really rooting for Nacho, then what you should hope for is that some circumstance happens with the cartel down in Mexico where Don Eladio is somehow either so impressed with Nacho or that maybe Eladio gets so disgusted with him that he says he never wants to hear his name again, and either way Fring cuts him loose.

[ShadowFacts]

24 minutes ago, ahmerali said:

I think Gus is just being pragmatic. He still needs Nacho as a double agent, at least until Lalo is neutralized. Ideally, he would like to keep him around to manage Tuco as well.

If anyone is really rooting for Nacho, then what you should hope for is that some circumstance happens with the cartel down in Mexico where Don Eladio is somehow either so impressed with Nacho or that maybe Eladio gets so disgusted with him that he says he never wants to hear his name again, and either way Fring cuts him loose.

I get where Gus' refusal to grant clemency is coming from, he knows what Nacho is capable of hence his talk about the biting dog.  What I question a little bit is his vehemence -- he is usually controlled, not a big yeller, etc.  He went off, and I was trying to figure the origin.  Maybe it's all the things happening with Lalo, suspending the superlab, having to blow up his Pollos Hermanos, all of it.  I do think Nacho is a dead man walking, he is stuck in the spot he's in for as long as he's useful, and too much a liability to ever let go free.  I would be happy to be wrong though.

[Eulipian 5k]

Kim's pitch to Lalo was indeed good lawyering by offering alternate theories of the facts - the bullet holes, but the 'get your s#it together' part went straight into Saul's "You guys suck at being drug dealers" sit down with Walt and Jesse in BB. Saul had no fear talking to them that way; thx Kim!

Ps: If all of Lalo's 7 mil was delivered and he was released, what could Lalo possibly imagine happened in the desert, why does he care?

Advert Notes:

• Lalo and his Go-Bag at the well makes a great Ralph Lauren ad.
• BCS single handedly destroyed the Orange Juicer for me; all I could think of was Davis & Main margaritas.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Eulipian 5k

[ShadowFacts]

23 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Ps: If all of Lalo's 7 mil was delivered and he was released, what could Lalo possibly imagine happened in the desert, why does he care?

I think by seeing the shot up car he knows there was an attack and it's relevant how Saul got out of it alive and with the money -- who else is involved? He wouldn't believe Saul shot his way out of that.  And who may have followed the twins and/or who is the rat inside?

[Pike Ludwell]

38 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Kim's pitch to Lalo was indeed good lawyering by offering alternate theories of the facts - the bullet holes, but the 'get your s#it together' part went straight into Saul's "You guys suck at being drug dealers" sit down with Walt and Jesse in BB. Saul had no fear talking to them that way; thx Kim!

Ps: If all of Lalo's 7 mil was delivered and he was released, what could Lalo possibly imagine happened in the desert, why does he care?

Advert Notes:

• Lalo and his Go-Bag at the well makes a great Ralph Lauren ad.
• BCS single handedly destroyed the Orange Juicer for me; all I could think of was Davis & Main margaritas.

It would have been a stretch for him to think someone followed the twins to get the money and, figuring Saul is wimpy about guns, he would know Saul couldn't have fought them off himself. But maybe he detected Saul wasn't being straight. So, if he came to suspect a possible robbery attempt, Lalo would want to know who the gunners were -- just who it was working against him by trying to steal the money -- and also who helped Saul, and why.  The latter would make no sense to him, and he'd be suspicious of something there. But it's a lot of jumping to conclusions on flimsy evidence - indicates a high degree of paranoia in Lalo.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Pike Ludwell

[gallimaufry]

Shadowfacts -- it's a really interesting point and links to another puzzle... why did Gus choose to threaten his father at all in 502?  For the past season, Nacho had been loyal with the threat of being exposed to the Salamancas which would certainly have ended his life.  My guess is that Gus upped the pressure at this point because what he was asking would be so dangerous that his own life might not be persuasive enough, but it's not really clear if anything changed.

Objectively though, Gus is right on his assessment of Nacho.  Nacho betrayed his father to go in with the Salamancas, betrayed Tuco by running the cons with the Kettlemans and Wormald, betrayed Wormald for a quick buck, helped Hector betray Eladio's decree of peace by invading Pollos in 304, betrayed his father again by letting Hector use his father's business, betrayed Hector by poisoning him (Gus' deepest of red lines) and now is trying to weasel out of his role with Gus before Lalo is fully dealt with, let alone before the rest of the Salamancas are dealt with.

Moreover, from "you are mine" onwards, Gus has always viewed Nacho as an animal akin to the coati he talks about to Hector in 406.  While Mike (in Gus' eyes) betrayed him by not telling him what Nacho was planning, Mike also has proved a resourceful and, in his own terms, loyal ally.  Gus may not like every choice Mike makes but he respects and understands his code of honour.  Very different from Nacho.

Yes, we know that Nacho has changed.  Mike knows that Nacho has changed.  But I can completely see why, from Gus' perspective, Nacho is too dangerous to let free or to let live and frankly isn't worth any modicum of respect.

I also think that this is pipework for Mike's endgame.  Because Mike dies in BB, there's no chance of a Gene-era plot for Mike and there's not much heroism in his final weeks with Walt or even in leaving him working for Gus.  But just like Walt had an ending that had some amount of heroism, taking down the Nazis and saving Jesse, I think Mike's last big stand in BCS will be to face down Gus to rescue Nacho and his father -- a thematic answer to "Five-O" where the father and son get a second chance.  At least, that's my hope for them.

[PeterPirate]

7 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I think by seeing the shot up car he knows there was an attack and it's relevant how Saul got out of it alive and with the money -- who else is involved? He wouldn't believe Saul shot his way out of that.  And who may have followed the twins and/or who is the rat inside?

Plus, whoever kept Jimmy safe in the desert might also be keeping Jimmy and Kim safe right at that moment.  At the very least, Lalo has to be aware he will be in danger if he does violence to them.  

It won't be a stretch for Lalo to think of Mike and Gus as the protectors, but he doesn't know about the connection between them.  So Lalo has a lot of intelligence gathering ahead of him.  

 

34 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Kim's pitch to Lalo was indeed good lawyering by offering alternate theories of the facts - the bullet holes, but the 'get your s#it together' part went straight into Saul's "You guys suck at being drug dealers" sit down with Walt and Jesse in BB. Saul had no fear talking to them that way; thx Kim!

Saul also got the "put a dollar in my pocket" thing from Kim.  

My mind is made up.  There's a four-year gap to cover and only one more season of Better Call Saul coming.  Kim Wexler, Cartel Lawyer is on the way. 

[Eulipian 5k]

I think Lalo's concern shows up  more in why he didn't wait for a pick up at the well - He didn't go back or, AFAIK, didn't call his "Uber" to cancel. He might suspect being kidnapped for ransom. I mean it looked pretty lonely out there if Nacho had left him.

He at no time showed any real concern for Saul. "Looks like you had a hard time. I was worried how you made it". I still don't see what other concerns a drug dealer has than whether all his money got delivered. He couldn't suspect robbery, after all, he gave 7 meel-yun dollars to his unarmed wimpy lawyer in the middle of the desert, without back up as Kim pointed out.

41 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Kim Wexler, Cartel Lawyer is on the way.

We know Lalo likes her, and "She's part of the team,right?"

Edited April 16, 2020 by Eulipian 5k

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

I get where Gus' refusal to grant clemency is coming from, he knows what Nacho is capable of hence his talk about the biting dog.  What I question a little bit is his vehemence -- he is usually controlled, not a big yeller, etc.  He went off, and I was trying to figure the origin.  Maybe it's all the things happening with Lalo, suspending the superlab, having to blow up his Pollos Hermanos, all of it.  I do think Nacho is a dead man walking, he is stuck in the spot he's in for as long as he's useful, and too much a liability to ever let go free.  I would be happy to be wrong though.

I thought Gus' story was ostensibly about Nacho, but also a veiled threat to Mike. Gus wasn't pleased at Mike's  questioning his decision.

1 hour ago, gallimaufry said:

Objectively though, Gus is right on his assessment of Nacho.  Nacho betrayed his father to go in with the Salamancas, betrayed Tuco by running the cons with the Kettlemans and Wormald, betrayed Wormald for a quick buck, helped Hector betray Eladio's decree of peace by invading Pollos in 304, betrayed his father again by letting Hector use his father's business, betrayed Hector by poisoning him (Gus' deepest of red lines) and now is trying to weasel out of his role with Gus before Lalo is fully dealt with, let alone before the rest of the Salamancas are dealt with.

As much as I sympathize with Nacho, this is spot on. Nacho hasn't shown any loyalty to his masters in the drug world.  Which we admire him for - but of course Gus wouldn't. Though I'd quibble that Nacho didn't "let" Hector use his father's business and did everything he could to stop it.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, gallimaufry said:

I also think that this is pipework for Mike's endgame.  Because Mike dies in BB, there's no chance of a Gene-era plot for Mike and there's not much heroism in his final weeks with Walt or even in leaving him working for Gus.  But just like Walt had an ending that had some amount of heroism, taking down the Nazis and saving Jesse, I think Mike's last big stand in BCS will be to face down Gus to rescue Nacho and his father -- a thematic answer to "Five-O" where the father and son get a second chance.  At least, that's my hope for them.

I hope that happens, more for Mr. Varga's sake than Nacho's, honestly.  Because papa will suffer if his son dies, just like Mike.  I don't know if Mike can pull this off, Gus was pretty adamant.  One possibility, though slim, is for Nacho to somehow save Gus' life and Gus lets him go on that basis. Maybe Mike can somehow help set that up.

3 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

As much as I sympathize with Nacho, this is spot on. Nacho hasn't shown any loyalty to his masters in the drug world.  Which we admire him for - but of course Gus wouldn't. Though I'd quibble that Nacho didn't "let" Hector use his father's business and did everything he could to stop it.

Yes, Nacho went down the bad choice road early on.  I think Mike figured out way back in an early episode that Nacho was doing his own deals outside of his Salamanca duties.  Not smart.  He has been very foolish to think he could get away with most of what he has done, and if Mike's philosophy about the bad choice road is right, Nacho won't be getting out of this and onto another road.

[BC4ME]

So I was just rewatching the episode and picked up on something I don't think has been mentioned. When Lalo goes to visit Hector he tells Hector he will watch out for Tuco when he gets out to make sure Tuco stays clean. We know from BB that clearly, Tuco does not stay clean. This could be a clue that Lalo is going to be killed. Jimmy does reference Lalo in his debut in BB but just because Jimmy doesn't know he's dead doesn't mean Lalo isn't dead. Of course it could mean nothing but why set this up and say these things if not as a clue Lalo dies? I feel like everything said in the Hector/Lalo visit is important.

I can't wait for next Monday.

[ahmerali]

2 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Ps: If all of Lalo's 7 mil was delivered and he was released, what could Lalo possibly imagine happened in the desert, why does he care?

 

 

No disrespect, but did you even watch the "Bagman" episode?

Jimmy at least one, if not two, extra days to come back with the money. I can't imagine a universe where Lalo wouldn't want to know why that was the case.

[gallimaufry]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

As much as I sympathize with Nacho, this is spot on. Nacho hasn't shown any loyalty to his masters in the drug world.  Which we admire him for - but of course Gus wouldn't. Though I'd quibble that Nacho didn't "let" Hector use his father's business and did everything he could to stop it.

I agree but I'm not sure Gus would perceive it this way.

1 hour ago, ShadowFacts said:

I hope that happens, more for Mr. Varga's sake than Nacho's, honestly.  Because papa will suffer if his son dies, just like Mike.  I don't know if Mike can pull this off, Gus was pretty adamant.  One possibility, though slim, is for Nacho to somehow save Gus' life and Gus lets him go on that basis. Maybe Mike can somehow help set that up.

Or Mike helps Nacho escape but Gus decides that Mike is too useful to punish perhaps.  It also occurs to me that if Mike could engineer a situation where Nacho's father was safe from the cartel (if not from Gus) then Nacho could work for Gus out of love for his father and a wish to protect the status quo rather than fear -- an improvement Gus would have time to warm to.  Prising Manuel Varga away from his shop, particularly if he suspects it's to protect him from the consequences of Nacho's actions, won't be easy but it is an unambiguous good if he's kept safe.  Saving a stubborn old man, the little guy between giant forces... isn't this exactly the kind of work Kim is looking for?

[PeterPirate]

Actually, Lalo didn't care.  At least, not until he and Nacho drove all the way to the well and it dawned on him they hadn't passed Saul's car. 

*****

 

8 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

I'm rewatching Breaking Bad and last night was season 2's "Better Call Saul." I remembered that, when Jesse and Walt took Saul to the desert, he asked if Lalo sent them and tried to blame whatever he thought he was being kidnapped for on Nacho/Ignacio, but what got completely overlooked (I don't recall anyone on the BCS forums mentioning this), was Saul repeatedly saying "amigo de cartel!" several times before the Nacho and Lalo references. The consistencies -- down to the tiniest detail like this --that they carry through and across series(!) time and again are just one more reason in the long list of why both of these shows are masterpieces. 

Also, going back to the 3- or 4-year time jump that is looming, it dawns on me that for Saul to think that "It was Ignacio!" was a halfway-reasonable thing to blurt out to his kidnappers, he must believe that Nacho is alive.  It would not make sense for the cartel to wait three or four years to exact revenge for something that happened during BCS.  Or, at least, it would not make sense for Saul to think of the cartel instead of the many, many clients he has had over the years.  Jimmy must have some interaction with the cartel over the interregnum.  

*****

3 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

We know Lalo likes her, and "She's part of the team,right?"

And she will be conveniently  in the Cayman Islands tending to cartel business when Gus and Jesse and Mike show up.  

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by PeterPirate

[Eulipian 5k]

5 hours ago, ahmerali said:

No disrespect, but did you even watch the "Bagman" episode?

Jimmy at least one, if not two, extra days to come back with the money. I can't imagine a universe where Lalo wouldn't want to know why that was the case

Actually I’m making the same point as Kim made and that Lalo made to Kim in jail! ”What’s your problem,I told you he’d be back and he’s here for you”

Edited April 17, 2020 by Eulipian 5k

[peeayebee]

Lalo accepted Saul's explanation until he realized he hadn't seen his broken-down car on the way to the well. When he found Saul's car pushed into the ravine with bullet holes in it, he realized that Saul had lied. The next question: Why would he lie?

 

[scenario]

56 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Lalo accepted Saul's explanation until he realized he hadn't seen his broken-down car on the way to the well. When he found Saul's car pushed into the ravine with bullet holes in it, he realized that Saul had lied. The next question: Why would he lie?

 

I'm sure that he realized that Saul was ambushed and that he almost certainly had help getting away. Since no one told him about the ambush, the help didn't come from his people. He wanted to know who helped Saul. 

But Kim's speech made him rethink the situation. Yes Saul is lying. But Saul didn't steal a dime when he had the chance. What he really needs to know is who sent the ambushers. Someone in his organization tried to steal a lot of money from him and it wasn't Saul. Saul almost certainly doesn't know what he really needs to know. Saul did his job and got Lalo out of prison and got the money to court. He's useful. Saul's on Lalo's watch list but killing him now isn't in his best interest. He can always kill him later. 

He also now knows that Saul is unlikely to crack if the police put pressure on him to talk. He's quick thinking. He didn't talk with a gun to his head. He's useful. Lalo isn't quite as much the unthinking murderer that the rest of his family is. He will kill in an instant but not without reason. 

[qtpye]

4 hours ago, scenario said:

I'm sure that he realized that Saul was ambushed and that he almost certainly had help getting away. Since no one told him about the ambush, the help didn't come from his people. He wanted to know who helped Saul. 

But Kim's speech made him rethink the situation. Yes Saul is lying. But Saul didn't steal a dime when he had the chance. What he really needs to know is who sent the ambushers. Someone in his organization tried to steal a lot of money from him and it wasn't Saul. Saul almost certainly doesn't know what he really needs to know. Saul did his job and got Lalo out of prison and got the money to court. He's useful. Saul's on Lalo's watch list but killing him now isn't in his best interest. He can always kill him later. 

He also now knows that Saul is unlikely to crack if the police put pressure on him to talk. He's quick thinking. He didn't talk with a gun to his head. He's useful. Lalo isn't quite as much the unthinking murderer that the rest of his family is. He will kill in an instant but not without reason. 

It also proved that Saul was still a valuable asset to him and one that he can not afford to lose. He also realized that Saul would do whatever he needed as long as Lalo did not hurt Kim.

Edited April 17, 2020 by qtpye

[ahmerali]

6 hours ago, scenario said:

I'm sure that he realized that Saul was ambushed and that he almost certainly had help getting away. Since no one told him about the ambush, the help didn't come from his people. He wanted to know who helped Saul. 

But Kim's speech made him rethink the situation. Yes Saul is lying. But Saul didn't steal a dime when he had the chance. What he really needs to know is who sent the ambushers. Someone in his organization tried to steal a lot of money from him and it wasn't Saul. Saul almost certainly doesn't know what he really needs to know. Saul did his job and got Lalo out of prison and got the money to court. He's useful. Saul's on Lalo's watch list but killing him now isn't in his best interest. He can always kill him later. 

He also now knows that Saul is unlikely to crack if the police put pressure on him to talk. He's quick thinking. He didn't talk with a gun to his head. He's useful. Lalo isn't quite as much the unthinking murderer that the rest of his family is. He will kill in an instant but not without reason. 

Much better said than my post, thank you.

 

[Dobian]

Lalo reminds me a lot of Steven Ogg from Walking Dead, smiling that crocodile smile and giving that laugh that's filled with menace.  That whole scene with Jimmy and Kim was one of the best scenes of the whole series, just racked with tension.

I loved the Tuco mention, really setting the context for his appearance in BB.

Oh Kim, you just ditched your high profile career and faced down a high level drug cartel member.  I am worried for you.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Dobian

[SailorGirl]

I readily admit "the maths" are not my strong suit, so please feel free to correct me if this doesn't add up. Based on the comment Lalo said to Hector, Tuco would be getting out of jail in 11 months, right?

I'm rewatching BCS and just saw the episode where Skinny Pete first introduces to Tuco. Pete says something along the lines of "so you've been out what, 10-11 months?"

So, if that's the case, we are about a 18-20 months out from the Breaking Bad intersection, not 10 or 11 months (which is what I originally thought when Lalo made the Tuco comment). 

Tuco will be up and running Salamanca operations as soon as he's sprung, but Jesse and Walt don't enter his world until about 11 months after Tuco is released from prison. 

[Pike Ludwell]

I'd love it if major characters thought ahead, realized they had danger, and had guns. I'd have loved it if Kim pulled a gun  out from under the couch, pointed it at Lala, ordered him out. If he resisted shoot him. If he started to leave, hell, shoot him too. Why do these people never have guns? Why are they always highly vulnerable sheep among the rams?

[scenario]

11 minutes ago, SailorGirl said:

I readily admit "the maths" are not my strong suit, so please feel free to correct me if this doesn't add up. Based on the comment Lalo said to Hector, Tuco would be getting out of jail in 11 months, right?

I'm rewatching BCS and just saw the episode where Skinny Pete first introduces to Tuco. Pete says something along the lines of "so you've been out what, 10-11 months?"

So, if that's the case, we are about a 18-20 months out from the Breaking Bad intersection, not 10 or 11 months (which is what I originally thought when Lalo made the Tuco comment). 

Tuco will be up and running Salamanca operations as soon as he's sprung, but Jesse and Walt don't enter his world until about 11 months after Tuco is released from prison. 

Tuco's already had his sentence extended once. If they want to make it longer they could by having Tuco get into a fight. They could also make it quicker if they wanted to by early release. 

Since they write this season by season with a general idea where their going, I take any timeline with a grain of salt. Kim was originally supposed to be in the show for a handful of episodes to as a sounding board for Jimmy. I.e. if the writers wanted to mention something about Jimmy's mom, they could have him tell Kim and it wouldn't be so awkward. But Kim became such a strong character so quickly her role expanded and they changed the timeline around to keep Jimmy around longer and Saul later.  

11 minutes ago, Pike Ludwell said:

I'd love it if major characters thought ahead, realized they had danger, and had guns. I'd have loved it if Kim pulled a gun  out from under the couch, pointed it at Lala, ordered him out. If he resisted shoot him. If he started to leave, hell, shoot him too. Why do these people never have guns? Why are they always highly vulnerable sheep among the rams?

Yes and no. If Kim hesitated for a second Lalo would kill her. If your not ruthless enough to use a gun instantly and you're around people who are, the gun is as likely to get you killed than save you. Threatening Lalo would be foolish. If your going to use the gun kill him in cold blood instantly because he's not going to give you a second chance. 

[DangerousMinds]

1 hour ago, Pike Ludwell said:

I'd love it if major characters thought ahead, realized they had danger, and had guns. I'd have loved it if Kim pulled a gun  out from under the couch, pointed it at Lala, ordered him out. If he resisted shoot him. If he started to leave, hell, shoot him too. Why do these people never have guns? Why are they always highly vulnerable sheep among the rams?

Because not everyone believes in owning guns?

[Pike Ludwell]

3 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

Because not everyone believes in owning guns?

If you are going to be a friend of the cartel you have to protect yourself and your loved ones. You can't be wimpy.  The writers could have used this as an opportunity to show real toughness of Kim. She pulls out a gun from under the sofa cushion, shoots Lala, without blinking an eye. Then the issue would be how to dispose of the body. The writers can go any direction they want. This direction would have had people hailing the episode as one of the greatest of all time.

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Pike Ludwell said:

If you are going to be a friend of the cartel you have to protect yourself and your loved ones. You can't be wimpy.  The writers could have used this as an opportunity to show real toughness of Kim. She pulls out a gun from under the sofa cushion, shoots Lala, without blinking an eye. Then the issue would be how to dispose of the body. The writers can go any direction they want. This direction would have had people hailing the episode as one of the greatest of all time.

Gotta say, I think I would have just stopped believing the characters. There's other ways to not be wimpy besides taking out a gun and shooting somebody without problem. That happens on shows where the guns aren't really real, it's more like playing cowboys and Indians and the hero wins because he's the hero. There's no particular reason a law partner would not only own a gun but be ready to pull it out with a steady hand and murder somebody like it's High Noon. I think, in fact, that it was a far tenser scene because it was a guy who shoots people against two people who don't shoot people. If it's just two gunslingers it's boring and just comes down to who hits their target first.

[Pike Ludwell]

14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Gotta say, I think I would have just stopped believing the characters. There's other ways to not be wimpy besides taking out a gun and shooting somebody without problem. That happens on shows where the guns aren't really real, it's more like playing cowboys and Indians and the hero wins because he's the hero. There's no particular reason a law partner would not only own a gun but be ready to pull it out with a steady hand and murder somebody like it's High Noon. I think, in fact, that it was a far tenser scene because it was a guy who shoots people against two people who don't shoot people. If it's just two gunslingers it's boring and just comes down to who hits their target first.

How long does it take to learn to shoot? Kim could have gotten a gun and gone to a shooting range for a couple hours and aced it. It's what I would have done. Not far fetched. It's what a prudent person, realizing their danger would have done. It's unrealistic to think she wouldn't have gotten a gun. I would have gone straight out and done so after that meeting with Lalo, and I think she is stupid for not having done so. I have less respect for her. She knew she was a sitting duck and did nothing, and let herself be victimized.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Pike Ludwell

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Pike Ludwell said:

How long does it take to learn to shoot? Kim could have gotten a gun and gone to a shooting range for a couple hours and aced it. It's what I would have done. Not far fetched. It's what a prudent person, realizing their danger would have done. It's unrealistic to think she wouldn't have gotten a gun. I would have gone straight out and done so after that meeting with Lalo.

That's what my reference to cowboys and Indians came in. If it's just about learning to point and pull a trigger and look badass, it doesn't take long at all. If we're talking about real people who understand murder as a real thing and have never killed anyone before, it might not be as easy as living out the shooting you had in your head. You put a person who bought a gun and may or may not have had any real training in shooting it against somebody who's murdered plenty of people with a gun already, he'd have an advantage.

Plus it would turn Kim into a different character. She's never been a gun-toting person before who solved anything through violence and neither has Jimmy. That's the character I saw facing Lalo, not someone who was going to deal with him like one of the Cousins.

[Pike Ludwell]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That's what my reference to cowboys and Indians came in. If it's just about learning to point and pull a trigger and look badass, it doesn't take long at all. If we're talking about real people who understand murder as a real thing and have never killed anyone before, it might not be as easy as living out the shooting you had in your head. You put a person who bought a gun and may or may not have had any real training in shooting it against somebody who's murdered plenty of people with a gun already, he'd have an advantage.

Plus it would turn Kim into a different character. She's never been a gun-toting person before who solved anything through violence and neither has Jimmy. That's the character I saw facing Lalo, not someone who was going to deal with him like one of the Cousins.

I respect her less for knowing she was in danger and not doing anything about it. Nothing can change me on that. She could have been killed, and she knew beforehand that was a possibility. So we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Pike Ludwell

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, SailorGirl said:

So, if that's the case, we are about a 18-20 months out from the Breaking Bad intersection, not 10 or 11 months (which is what I originally thought when Lalo made the Tuco comment).

We're actually still four years out from Breaking Bad, based on when Jimmy's PPD ended:

But you're right that Skinny Pete mentions it's been "like a year" since he and Tuco were together on the inside, so the dates don't line up yet. Maybe Tuco will get his sentence extended again, or maybe he'll get out and some of the other characters will have to conspire to get him imprisoned again for another couple years.

I'm not sure the writers had some big plan in mind, though. I suspect the point was just to establish that Lalo sees Tuco's release as the long-term solution to the Salamancas' Albuquerque problem, which is why he was initially OK about heading back to Mexico. And it probably wouldn't make sense if he were like, "Everything will be fine as soon as Tuco gets out of prison three years from now," so they had to establish that he's currently expected out long before that.

[Scout Finch]

I wish I could have made out Mike's number when it showed up on Jimmy's phone. Instead of the 555 area code that is commonly used in TV shows and movies, his started with the actual New Mexico area code, so I wonder if you'd get a message from the character. There was at least one instance of this in Breaking Bad where if you called the number listed in Saul Goodman's advertising you reached his "office" and there was a recorded message.

[Dobian]

3 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

So, if that's the case, we are about a 18-20 months out from the Breaking Bad intersection, not 10 or 11 months (which is what I originally thought when Lalo made the Tuco comment). 
 

That sounds about right.  BB started early in 2008 so it was probably 2007 in the time of the story.  20 months before that puts us at the beginning of 2006.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

That sounds about right.  BB started early in 2008 so it was probably 2007 in the time of the story.  20 months before that puts us at the beginning of 2006.

—which means the actors who appeared in BrBa are playing at least 15 years younger, and actually at least 20 years younger. Isn’t 10 years younger the rule of thumb maximum? I can agree with a choice to not use the de-aging software for aesthetic reasons (i.e., it can look distractingly cheesy and fake) but the disparity of the ages (even with facelifts, Botox, and hairpieces) of the BrBa alum actors’ ages and their BCS characters’ ages is getting even more distracting, IMO. Maybe they could just use the deaging software with it set for the minimum effect? 

[gallimaufry]

16 hours ago, scenario said:

I'm sure that he realized that Saul was ambushed and that he almost certainly had help getting away. Since no one told him about the ambush, the help didn't come from his people. He wanted to know who helped Saul. 

But Kim's speech made him rethink the situation. Yes Saul is lying. But Saul didn't steal a dime when he had the chance. What he really needs to know is who sent the ambushers. Someone in his organization tried to steal a lot of money from him and it wasn't Saul. Saul almost certainly doesn't know what he really needs to know. Saul did his job and got Lalo out of prison and got the money to court. He's useful. Saul's on Lalo's watch list but killing him now isn't in his best interest. He can always kill him later. 

He also now knows that Saul is unlikely to crack if the police put pressure on him to talk. He's quick thinking. He didn't talk with a gun to his head. He's useful. Lalo isn't quite as much the unthinking murderer that the rest of his family is. He will kill in an instant but not without reason. 

This is brilliantly explained.

5 hours ago, scenario said:

Tuco's already had his sentence extended once. If they want to make it longer they could by having Tuco get into a fight. They could also make it quicker if they wanted to by early release. 

Knowing how obsessive these writers are, I really hope they haven't lost track of the timeline as this sort of thing infuriates me more than it should.  I mean, Kayleigh's age is a continuity nightmare so a certain amount of this stuff just needs to be overlooked. 

But in this case  I can absolutely see a montage where the cartel are relying on Tuco getting out and he keeps getting months added to his sentence.  Indeed, given what an evident lunatic Tuco is, I can see Jimmy being sent into prison based on his reputation as the "Tuco whisperer" to coach him on how to pass a parole board (and even then probably requiring some Huell-style oiling of the wheels of injustice).

2 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

—which means the actors who appeared in BrBa are playing at least 15 years younger, and actually at least 20 years younger. Isn’t 10 years younger the rule of thumb maximum? I can agree with a choice to not use the de-aging software for aesthetic reasons (i.e., it can look distractingly cheesy and fake) but the disparity of the ages (even with facelifts, Botox, and hairpieces) of the BrBa alum actors’ ages and their BCS characters’ ages is getting even more distracting, IMO. Maybe they could just use the deaging software with it set for the minimum effect? 

I don't know how this software works and what the cost is but I wouldn't want them to mess around too much.

Ultimately, this a well-established issue with Vince Gilligan's series: if you go back to BB Season 1 there's a scene where they're straining every sinew to show Bryan Cranston in his 20s.  I also think it's one of the biggest issues with "El Camino" that Jesse Plemons and Aaron Paul have aged hugely out of the roles.  And of course it will only get worse with the delay to S6 filming as any scenes they're trying to set at the beginning of the BB timeline will require performers to rewind the clock 13 or 14 years.

However... I feel at this point, they may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.  This is one of those -- quite rare on this show -- "don't think about it too much" moments where you have to suspend disbelief.  Spending money on expensive technology that may end up with uncanny valley performances would be far worse, I think.

If the technology improves in the next couple of decades to the point where you can adapt existing footage without too much of an issue, it would be lovely (though unlikely) if they were to do a "director's cut" of BB/BCS/EC, for the 30th anniversary of "Breaking Bad" or something, in which they tidy this sort of thing up.  I know "George Lucasing" past work gets a bad reputation but I always feel it's fine as long as the fixes are to get the scene closer to its intention rather than just to add for the sake of it.  Probably though, it's just one of those things to which you just have to turn a blind eye.

[JudyObscure]

 

4 hours ago, Pike Ludwell said:

It's what a prudent person, realizing their danger would have done. It's unrealistic to think she wouldn't have gotten a gun. I would have gone straight out and done so after that meeting with Lalo, and I think she is stupid for not having done so. I have less respect for her.

I think it's completely realistic that a smart, prudent person like Kim would know that adding a gun to a situation is almost always going to make it more dangerous, not less.  She probably sees cases on  a regular basis where a gun bought to protect the family,  instead caused  harm to a family member, either in escalating a situation with a criminal,   domestic violence, suicide, or accidental death.  Using a gun wouldn't have made her tougher, standing down someone like Lalo with just the force of her personality was what was tough.

[PeterPirate]

Personally, I don't think too much about the ages of the actors.  Rhea Seehorn is the only one I care to look at, and she looks really damn good.  

Star Trek fans have to accept all sorts of incongruities in order to enjoy it.  Most notable is the Why-do-Klingons-have-bumpy-heads thing, which is just a gawdawful mess. Compared to that, this show is a breeze.  It's more important that the characters and story lines be engaging (which to me ended with DS9 and The Undiscovered Country).

Still, the writers of this show have sprinkled all sorts of clues about the timeline, which makes for a good thought experiment.  I stilll think Nacho and Kim have Time Jump Armor.  Kim could be in prison, or in witness protection.  Something that means she can only call Jimmy on his birthday.  

Edited April 18, 2020 by PeterPirate

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, gallimaufry said:

And of course it will only get worse with the delay to S6 filming

Although the actors/characters age disparity has bothered me since BCS season 1 —probably more than most since I paint portraits in which I change an age when appropriate— I think the current Covid Anxiety is making me dwell on the potential for them to film the final season 2 years from now. Perhaps I’m dwelling on their further aging to avoid thinking about the likelihood of one or more not surviving the pandemic. 🙁
But at least in this episode Odenkirk’s haggardness fit his PTSD and Fear Of The Wrath Of Lalo. 
Likewise, last episode the trek through the desert also explained Bob Odenkirk’s and Jonathan Banks’ looking a little worse for wear. 
However, I’ve seen Odenkirk doing some interviews recently, and it looks like he had a little too much Botox which was hindering his facial expressions, which had me thinking a judicious amount of CGI or whatever the technology is would be better. 
Also, an episode of a low-rated CW show used the technology lately, which makes me think it’s not too expensive. 

[Ailianna]

7 hours ago, Pike Ludwell said:

I respect her less for knowing she was in danger and not doing anything about it. Nothing can change me on that. She could have been killed, and she knew beforehand that was a possibility. So we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Why on earth would she think Lalo would show up at their home?  Your whole argument presupposes that they have a reason to think he will come to their home.  Which they don't.  And in fact, they believed he was already in Mexico, or at least on his way.  Why on earth would they expect him to ditch his ride and return to ABQ just to show up at their house?

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

—which means the actors who appeared in BrBa are playing at least 15 years younger, and actually at least 20 years younger. Isn’t 10 years younger the rule of thumb maximum? I can agree with a choice to not use the de-aging software for aesthetic reasons (i.e., it can look distractingly cheesy and fake) but the disparity of the ages (even with facelifts, Botox, and hairpieces) of the BrBa alum actors’ ages and their BCS characters’ ages is getting even more distracting, IMO. Maybe they could just use the deaging software with it set for the minimum effect? 

The "distractingly cheesy and fake" is a good reason not to screw around with performances that the vast majority of fans and critics think are amazing.  I don't know much about the software, but I'm not sure there's a minimum effect setting.  And we know CGI can't replicate the details of human expression for crap at this time.  The ages of actors never bothers me, but in this case, I'd rather see Jonathan Banks looking 200 years old, see Bob Odenkirk completely bald with a fake wig, then lose the expressiveness of the performances they consistently deliver and deliver with such skill and empathy.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, Pike Ludwell said:

If you are going to be a friend of the cartel you have to protect yourself and your loved ones. You can't be wimpy.  The writers could have used this as an opportunity to show real toughness of Kim. She pulls out a gun from under the sofa cushion, shoots Lala, without blinking an eye. Then the issue would be how to dispose of the body. The writers can go any direction they want. This direction would have had people hailing the episode as one of the greatest of all time.

Not this person. I would think it was the worst episode of the series. It would be a convenient solution, and one of the reasons I love this show is that they don't do easy. The characters make their decisions, good and bad, in character and live (or not) with the consequences. Plus, it doesn't solve anything except in the immediate moment. Nacho's downstairs waiting for Lalo, so Gus and the cartel would know what happened. A handgun isn't going to provide any protection against them.

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Using a gun wouldn't have made her tougher, standing down someone like Lalo with just the force of her personality was what was tough.

This.

[scenario]

9 hours ago, Pike Ludwell said:

If you are going to be a friend of the cartel you have to protect yourself and your loved ones. You can't be wimpy.  The writers could have used this as an opportunity to show real toughness of Kim. She pulls out a gun from under the sofa cushion, shoots Lala, without blinking an eye. Then the issue would be how to dispose of the body. The writers can go any direction they want. This direction would have had people hailing the episode as one of the greatest of all time.

Many, many people are just not capable of shooting someone down in cold blood. It's really not easy. There is a thing that was called Shell Shock in WWI, Combat Fatigue in WWII and PTSD today. It frequently comes from people being in a situation where they killed or tried to kill someone. Most people have really bad reactions to killing another person. In real life, not everyone is a sociopath. 

There's a pretty good scene in the movie Unforgiven where Clint Eastwood shoot something like 5 people standing 5 feet away from him one by one in cold blood because he is a ruthless killer and they are people who have never killed anyone before and hesitate. Person A fumbling with their gun, bang dead....

[Dobian]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

—which means the actors who appeared in BrBa are playing at least 15 years younger, and actually at least 20 years younger. Isn’t 10 years younger the rule of thumb maximum? I can agree with a choice to not use the de-aging software for aesthetic reasons (i.e., it can look distractingly cheesy and fake) but the disparity of the ages (even with facelifts, Botox, and hairpieces) of the BrBa alum actors’ ages and their BCS characters’ ages is getting even more distracting, IMO. Maybe they could just use the deaging software with it set for the minimum effect? 

Yes, it is most noticeable on Mike, who looks like an old man in BCS when he looked more like a middle-aged man in BB.  And Saul of course looked liked a guy in his 40s in BB while on BCS he looks like he is in his mid-50s.  Not much you can do about that, it costs money to digitally de-age actors and these shows have budgets.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Dobian

[scenario]

33 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Yes, it is most noticeable on Mike, who looks like an old man in BCS when he looked more like a middle-aged man in BB.  And Saul of course looked liked a guy in his 40s in BB while on BCS he looks like he is in his mid-50s.  Not much you can do about that, it costs money to digitally de-age actors and these shows have budgets.

Arron Paul was born in 1979. BB started in 2008. So the actor was 29 years old playing a 19 year old character. That sort of thing happens all the time.

It was never a problem in the 1940's and 1950's when movies frequently had 30 and 40 year old's playing high school students. "Another 40 year old freshman."

To me, the age thing is kind of like getting all worked up because one of the cars in the background of the scene is a 2008 vehicle in a scene set in 2006. I really only get annoyed if they have cars from the 1980's in a scene from the 1960's. Suspension of disbelief and all that. 

A lot of it is watching shows about an area you know a lot about. Doctors watching doctor shows or lawyers watching lawyer shows. If you can't just ignore the fairly minor mistakes or things done for dramatic reasons, you maybe shouldn't be watching that type of show. 

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Although the actors/characters age disparity has bothered me since BCS season 1 —probably more than most since I paint portraits in which I change an age when appropriate— I think the current Covid Anxiety is making me dwell on the potential for them to film the final season 2 years from now. Perhaps I’m dwelling on their further aging to avoid thinking about the likelihood of one or more not surviving the pandemic. 🙁

Yes, I've had those type of morbid thoughts myself.  There are actors and production people (and viewers) who might not be around for the last season.  That's always a possibility, but more so now, and would also be a real problem for characters we know make it to the future.  I guess the prison population would just have to grow, offscreen. 

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Not this person. I would think it was the worst episode of the series. It would be a convenient solution, and one of the reasons I love this show is that they don't do easy. The characters make their decisions, good and bad, in character and live (or not) with the consequences. Plus, it doesn't solve anything except in the immediate moment. Nacho's downstairs waiting for Lalo, so Gus and the cartel would know what happened. A handgun isn't going to provide any protection against them.

That is exactly what I thought...Kim kills Lalo, Kim may as well tattoo a bullseye on herself for when the cartel uses her for target practice.

57 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Yes, it is most noticeable on Mike, who looks like an old man in BCS when he looked more like a middle-aged man in BB.

I guess the cheese officially stand alone, I don't think Jonathan Banks looks a whole lot different than he did on BB.

[Clanstarling]

10 minutes ago, ByTor said:

That is exactly what I thought...Kim kills Lalo, Kim may as well tattoo a bullseye on herself for when the cartel uses her for target practice.

I guess the cheese officially stand alone, I don't think Jonathan Banks looks a whole lot different than he did on BB.

Except for the desert scene, I agree, he has one of those haggard faces that seem ageless to me. While I'm watching, it doesn't really occur to me to compare the actors with their younger versions. The only time it bothered me was not with BCS, but with El Camino - because we watched the last episode of BB just before watching the movie, so it was hard not to compare.

[PeterPirate]

I wonder if they will do most of the filming in studio, and digitally create the desert landscapes when needed as background.  And do a lot of second-unit shooting with stunt doubles.   

Jonathan Banks looks the same as he did on his appearance on DS9.  Which was either 27 years in the past or 400 years in the future.  

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Except for the desert scene, I agree, he has one of those haggard faces that seem ageless to me. While I'm watching, it doesn't really occur to me to compare the actors with their younger versions. The only time it bothered me was not with BCS, but with El Camino - because we watched the last episode of BB just before watching the movie, so it was hard not to compare.

I guess it's a good thing I didn't re-watch and BB before El Camino, LOL! 

[scenario]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Except for the desert scene, I agree, he has one of those haggard faces that seem ageless to me. While I'm watching, it doesn't really occur to me to compare the actors with their younger versions. The only time it bothered me was not with BCS, but with El Camino - because we watched the last episode of BB just before watching the movie, so it was hard not to compare.

This situation doesn't happen very often. Usually its a remake with a new cast like Lost in Space. Or the movie was made shortly after the TV series like Firefly/Serenity. Better Call Saul started 2 years after the end of BB but they made it a prequel set a decade before the first season ended.

I really can't think of another show with a prequel set 10 years before the first show but with the same actors.

Young Sheldon is a prequel but they don't have Jim Parsons trying to play his Sheldon as a child.  They hired a child actor. 

If you want to have a BB prequel you either have to recast or just allow for the fact that some of the characters are going to look a little old for the part by the end of the show. 

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Except for the desert scene, I agree, he has one of those haggard faces that seem ageless to me. While I'm watching, it doesn't really occur to me to compare the actors with their younger versions. The only time it bothered me was not with BCS, but with El Camino - because we watched the last episode of BB just before watching the movie, so it was hard not to compare.

Actually the thing that stuck out in El Camino was not the ages as much as Todd gaining 30-40 pounds.  Absolutely could not get past that.  That's probably off topic, so I'll just say I hope everyone survives the pandemic to conclude the series, and we'll just be happy they do no matter how much more they age in however long it takes to conclude the thing.