S03.E18: Heartbreak

[vibeology]

On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2020 at 1:52 AM, nokat said:

I like that we're all questioning the authenticity of the writing. Shaun has had moments  of scary aggression. I shouldn't be accepting what he's been doing because of autism.

I've had my moments of aggression but they were things like bumping shopping carts.

I enjoy the show, but not necessarily making autistic people scary.
 

I don't think Shaun was violent because of autism. I think Shaun was violent because he's an angry person who has never dealt with his issues. And that makes him an asshole because he has had many opportunities, support from loved ones and access to resources and refuses to do it.

Shaun grew up in a violent household and witnessed multiple points of trauma and has adamantly refused therapy of any sort. There is an anger in him that's come out a few times over the course of the series that he just doesn't have the tools to handle, and that would be true with or without autism. Anyone who grew up in an abusive home, watched a parent kill a pet and witnessed their sibling die is a pretty good candidate for therapy.

And it's not like this show is anti-therapy. Claire goes and we're shown that it's beneficial for her.

[Dreamboat Annie]

20 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

Ironically being ok with taking on someone's faults and eccentricities can be a turn off in itself because it comes off as desperate. And no one wants to feel like they are being taken on because there aren't any other options.

I agree.  I just don't think he saw it that way.

 

9 hours ago, vibeology said:

Shaun grew up in a violent household and witnessed multiple points of trauma and has adamantly refused therapy of any sort. There is an anger in him that's come out a few times over the course of the series that he just doesn't have the tools to handle, and that would be true with or without autism. Anyone who grew up in an abusive home, watched a parent kill a pet and witnessed their sibling die is a pretty good candidate for therapy.

I agree.  Shaun would be an excellent candidate for therapy.  I wonder if he's refused it because he thinks talking to Dr. Glassman is enough for him.  But now we've seen he needs more than that in order to be equipped to handle.  It will be interesting to see what the writers do with this going forward.  

 

20 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

I never saw any chemistry between Carly and Shaun so was thrilled when it ended.

Same here!

 

20 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

Morgan I think would be more fun than Carly but she would still see him as a science project.

I could see them having a great time together!  And now that Shaun has discovered he's an ardent fan of sex, I would enjoy seeing him restore her faith in the activity (maybe she can be  his science project!).  I laugh out loud with those two - they are both bluntly honest -loved it when Shaun was seeking advice and when he got to Morgan, he started with a very matter-of-factly "You're the most selfish person I know...", and she displayed no adverse reaction to it.  And at least we know that girl wouldn't sugar coat anything!

 

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, DarkHorse said:

Shawn does need therapy but I wonder if that would be possible given he does  not like hearing what he doesn't like. Maybe now with some experience under his belt he may be more open to criticism. 

It could be job mandated counselling, like anger management. The therapy doesn't have to go into his psyche, just teach him how to manage unacceptable behaviour.

[bros402]

6 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

Shawn does need therapy but I wonder if that would be possible given he does  not like hearing what he doesn't like. Maybe now with some experience under his belt he may be more open to criticism. 

He would need someone willing to go slow with him and build up a rapport. I have autism, I have seen three therapists. First one kept cancelling appointments when we were over halfway there (45 minute drive each way), second one screamed at me in the middle of an appointment because I "didn't want to improve and [he] would not enable me" - when he refused to believe that my anxiety was so severe that I could not really talk to people and I would get sensory overload after 5 minutes in a store (and this guy diagnosed me with Aspergers), and then I found my third therapist - a man I have been seeing for almost 10 years now, and together we have helped... manage anxiety and reduce.... emotional outbursts and help me regulate my emotions better.

It can be hard for people with autism (or, at least adults) to find a therapist that works for them, but it is possible. I also imagine it is much easier to find one in San Jose than Casper, Wyoming.

[izabella]

12 hours ago, bros402 said:

It can be hard for people with autism (or, at least adults) to find a therapist that works for them, but it is possible. I also imagine it is much easier to find one in San Jose than Casper, Wyoming.

It's also much easier if one is open to it and one tries to find a therapist, neither of which Shawn is.

My greatest wish is that parking garage has cameras, and there is a security guard who saw the incident with the bat and reported it to someone so Shawn is required to find a therapist before he can come back to work.

[JenMcSnark]

17 hours ago, statsgirl said:

It could be job mandated counselling, like anger management. The therapy doesn't have to go into his psyche, just teach him how to manage unacceptable behaviour.

Honestly, this should happen.  He has crossed two very serious lines now. First when he went to the son of the patient and attacked him for which he was rightfully arrested.  Then, he learns nothing from being arrested and attacks Lea/her car??  

The hospital would have to take serious action at this point if his attack on Lea's car becomes known. 

[KaveDweller]

3 hours ago, JenMcSnark said:

Honestly, this should happen.  He has crossed two very serious lines now. First when he went to the son of the patient and attacked him for which he was rightfully arrested.  Then, he learns nothing from being arrested and attacks Lea/her car??  

The hospital would have to take serious action at this point if his attack on Lea's car becomes known. 

I'm actually surprised he didn't have any consequences from attacking the son of the patient. Do they know about the arrest?

[Fable]

Didn't he also hit Dr. Glassman in Season 1? 

[bros402]

11 hours ago, izabella said:

It's also much easier if one is open to it and one tries to find a therapist, neither of which Shawn is.

My greatest wish is that parking garage has cameras, and there is a security guard who saw the incident with the bat and reported it to someone so Shawn is required to find a therapist before he can come back to work.

That too!

And yeah, they need to force him to see a therapist

7 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I'm actually surprised he didn't have any consequences from attacking the son of the patient. Do they know about the arrest?

Didn't Park get it swept under the rug?

[possibilities]

I think the thing with the patient's relative happened off-site, and the guy decided not to press charges after Park talked with him. So that one the hospital might not even know about.

 

[JenMcSnark]

But isn't Glassman back as the President of the hospital?  He certainly knows about it since he bailed him out or whatever.  I guess if the charges were dropped they could possibly get away with not addressing the issue but that leaves the hospital with a lot of liability. 

And talk about your conflict of interest if Glassman didn't tell anyone when he should have.

[bros402]

9 hours ago, JenMcSnark said:

But isn't Glassman back as the President of the hospital?  He certainly knows about it since he bailed him out or whatever.  I guess if the charges were dropped they could possibly get away with not addressing the issue but that leaves the hospital with a lot of liability. 

And talk about your conflict of interest if Glassman didn't tell anyone when he should have.

He should have *at least* had to have been obligated to tell Melendez and Lim, as the doctor overseeing Shaun, and the Chief of Surgery, respectively. Or maybe he just had to tell someone in HR

[meatball77]

I hated what they did to Sean in this episode.  They turned him from an autistic person who has issues with stimulation, routines and social situations into an Incel.  This was typical incel type thought.  I like you so you must like me back.  You don't like me so I'm going to hurt you.  Even worse they had all the supporting characters encouraging his delusion that he was right and that Carly's feelings didn't matter and that attraction on both sides wasn't necessary.  That sometimes (and even most of the time) people just don't have romantic feelings tward you and just because you want to have a relationship doesn't mean you get to.  She'd turned him down already and no means no (although his verbal reaction to her no fit with his characterization), Morgan and Claire should have prepared him for that. 

I could see Sean yelling and having a melt down, but standing around with the bat and being agressive.  That was a step too far (as was everyone around him acting like he could just decide he liked Leah and her feelings weren't going to matter.  That her liking him back as more than a friend wasn't even an issue.

[rmontro]

5 hours ago, meatball77 said:

I hated what they did to Sean in this episode.  They turned him from an autistic person who has issues with stimulation, routines and social situations into an Incel.  This was typical incel type thought.  I like you so you must like me back.  You don't like me so I'm going to hurt you. 

His attitude in all this is definitely wrong, but not necessarily inconsistent with someone who is socially or emotionally insecure.  Unfortunately, he doesn't have the experience necessary with relationships to behave appropriately for his age.

I don't think he's an Incel though.  He has women who find him attractive and have been willing to go out with him - Carly and the nurse for example.  He just wants the super hottie (in his mind) Lea, and isn't interested in the others.  Actually, he was making a pretty good go at being with Carly, but his feelings for Lea betrayed him and were apparently too transparent.  In this case, keeping the opposite sex "friend" around bit him in the arse.

[bros402]

17 hours ago, meatball77 said:

I hated what they did to Sean in this episode.  They turned him from an autistic person who has issues with stimulation, routines and social situations into an Incel.  This was typical incel type thought.  I like you so you must like me back.  You don't like me so I'm going to hurt you.  Even worse they had all the supporting characters encouraging his delusion that he was right and that Carly's feelings didn't matter and that attraction on both sides wasn't necessary.  That sometimes (and even most of the time) people just don't have romantic feelings tward you and just because you want to have a relationship doesn't mean you get to.  She'd turned him down already and no means no (although his verbal reaction to her no fit with his characterization), Morgan and Claire should have prepared him for that. 

I could see Sean yelling and having a melt down, but standing around with the bat and being agressive.  That was a step too far (as was everyone around him acting like he could just decide he liked Leah and her feelings weren't going to matter.  That her liking him back as more than a friend wasn't even an issue.

As someone with autism, I can sometimes get overstimulated and aggressive, to the point where I may pick up something in a fit of rage (Usually a remote or something), then I usually drop it - or wave it around a bit.

However, there is a difference between that and what Shaun did - he had to get a bat (I doubt he has one, so he had to go out and buy one, I bet), then he had to go to Lea's car, then he had to wait for her to get to her car, then he had to have his..... fit of rage. Minimum, that took 10 minutes - assuming there is a sporting goods store right across the street from the hospital, and Shaun went right back to the hospital, found Lea's car in the parking garage (Since I doubt she has an assigned spot - she would probably just be in a general staff parking area), and wait for her to get back. So if he was super lucky, he would have gotten there with the bat a minute before she got there. More likely, it was upwards of an hour - given Shaun's need to use public transit, there and back, etc. etc.

[catrice2]

The writing for Shaun has been very uneven.  Realistically anyone can have ups and downs and progressions and regressions.  My issue is that the way they write for him Shaun wold have never made it to this place at all.  You don't have to be autistic to be emotionally immature or to act out.  Claire acted out, Morgan acts out all the time.  You do, however, have to exhibit professionalism when dealing with patients and colleagues.  

I have always thought this show would have been better if Shaun had been written as a person on the Spectrum that people don't realize has a disability. There are many people who went undiagnosed for years, and had to live with not understanding why it was not as easy for them to navigate certain things and other people didn't know how to interact with them, or understand why they were different.  I want to explore some of those stories.  Or some of the stories of people who have autism and who ARE social to some extent.  I assure you they do exist. I have worked with many students whose parents have worked hard to overcome some of the social stigmas that are associated with their children.  Then when you finally get a lead character portrayed on television it reinforces all of the misunderstood aspects....and they gave Shaun all of them.   I still find it confusing why they have never had him interact with anyone else on the spectrum on a personal level...maybe someone more adjusted that could be a mentor or a sounding board.  

I have almost always found him to be the least interesting person on the show and quite frankly would watch the show without him.  I have said since the start of the year that Lim or  Andrews  would not survive the season.  Morgan is also a possibility.....,, although I would not miss Glassman.  Of course they will probably make it Carly......for one. 

They needed another male character closer to Shaun's age on the team...not Park 

[rmontro]

14 hours ago, bros402 said:

Minimum, that took 10 minutes - assuming there is a sporting goods store right across the street from the hospital

Maybe he got the bat from the little person's girlfriend.  Maybe she dropped it in the parking lot when she was done with it.  Maybe she even heard sirens and ditched it.

 

4 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Of course they will probably make it Carly......for one. 

They needed another male character closer to Shaun's age on the team...not Park 

Carly might even be already gone?  Personally, I hope not.

It would be interesting to see Shaun interact with someone close to his age - a friend, or even a rival.

[statsgirl]

Shaun isn't an Incel but he does seem to have the Incel entitlement of thinking that he deserves to have the person he wants. Or the autopsy he wants to do.

2 hours ago, catrice2 said:

I have always thought this show would have been better if Shaun had been written as a person on the Spectrum that people don't realize has a disability. There are many people who went undiagnosed for years, and had to live with not understanding why it was not as easy for them to navigate certain things and other people didn't know how to interact with them, or understand why they were different.  I want to explore some of those stories. 

That's a great idea.

I was reading an article on the history of handwashing to prevent illness. The idea was thought up by Ignacz Semellweis in 1848.  It went nowhere because Semmelwes was a "difficult" person to get along with (Semmelweis himself died penniless in an asylum).

It reminded me of Shaun, brilliant and innovative but his discovery didn't matter because he didn't have the social skills to have people listen to him. Only on TV does brilliance trump social skills. Alfred Adler developed a model of therapy more useful than psychoanalysis and similar to how we do therapy today but because he wasn't as good a writer as Freud or Jung, it fell behind an it took a long time to rediscover it.

[bros402]

13 hours ago, catrice2 said:

The writing for Shaun has been very uneven.  Realistically anyone can have ups and downs and progressions and regressions.  My issue is that the way they write for him Shaun wold have never made it to this place at all.  You don't have to be autistic to be emotionally immature or to act out.  Claire acted out, Morgan acts out all the time.  You do, however, have to exhibit professionalism when dealing with patients and colleagues.  

I have always thought this show would have been better if Shaun had been written as a person on the Spectrum that people don't realize has a disability. There are many people who went undiagnosed for years, and had to live with not understanding why it was not as easy for them to navigate certain things and other people didn't know how to interact with them, or understand why they were different.  I want to explore some of those stories.  Or some of the stories of people who have autism and who ARE social to some extent.  I assure you they do exist. I have worked with many students whose parents have worked hard to overcome some of the social stigmas that are associated with their children.  Then when you finally get a lead character portrayed on television it reinforces all of the misunderstood aspects....and they gave Shaun all of them.   I still find it confusing why they have never had him interact with anyone else on the spectrum on a personal level...maybe someone more adjusted that could be a mentor or a sounding board.  

I have almost always found him to be the least interesting person on the show and quite frankly would watch the show without him.  I have said since the start of the year that Lim or  Andrews  would not survive the season.  Morgan is also a possibility.....,, although I would not miss Glassman.  Of course they will probably make it Carly......for one. 

They needed another male character closer to Shaun's age on the team...not Park 

Shaun being a bit more social would have been much better - they could've "compensated" by having him have some more signs of PTSD from his abusive upbringing & the death of his brother.

Yeah, we really need an "Autism Stereotype" bingo board for TV shows, it can get ridiculous.

Park is a great character, but Shaun definitely needs a friend. I can imagine Park filling that void, but I cannot help but picture him taking more of a paternal role with Shaun, versus the role of a friend (or friendly big brother), which is what he needs

[Annber03]

1 minute ago, bros402 said:

Park is a great character, but Shaun definitely needs a friend. I can imagine Park filling that void, but I cannot help but picture him taking more of a paternal role with Shaun, versus the role of a friend (or friendly big brother), which is what he needs

I imagine Jared would've filled that big brother role of sorts had he stuck around. 

[possibilities]

Claire used to be Shaun's friend, but they've sidelined her into banging strangers and falling in love with her boss. She and Shaun never even talked about their grief, when both of them lost parents! Or, if they did, I don't remember it. It wasn't like they were actually supporting each other like they used to.

I want Shaun to have other friends with autism, though. They've made him a token, and it's insulting how much he wants to not associate with others on the spectrum. I don't want all his friends and mentors to have to be neurotypicals.

Edited March 24, 2020 by possibilities

[vibeology]

39 minutes ago, possibilities said:

I want Shaun to have other friends with autism, though. They've made him a token, and it's insulting how much he wants to not associate with others on the spectrum. I don't want all his friends and mentors to have to be neurotypicals.

When Shaun called Lea prejudiced I thought it was a little hypocritical. Shaun has no friends with autism and the few times he's interacted with people on the spectrum, it's like he's ashamed.

[bros402]

23 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I imagine Jared would've filled that big brother role of sorts had he stuck around. 

Yeah - he would've been good to keep on, he was pretty decent.

[possibilities]

Considering Jared's response to hearing Claire was being sexually harassed was to physically assault that doctor in the locker room, I think Jared would be a bad influence on Shaun right now.

[tennisgurl]

*Wrong Thread, nothing to see here!*

Edited March 25, 2020 by tennisgurl

[sinkwriter]

On 3/16/2020 at 12:47 AM, DarkHorse said:

He is like a child who has just had his fave toy taken from him. He just wants the sex. Someone needs to teach him how to achieve orgasms alone. 

I don't see that about Shaun at all. I think he wants the whole package, because he has come to realize what Lea means to him -- in fact, in this episode, he seemed to be noticing particularly when other couples shared intimate loving moments with one another, caring for one another. Or have I missed a scene where he expressed a desperate need for sex, after breaking up with Carly?

(Also, from what I recall, maybe from season 1 or whenever it might have been that his fellow doctors asked him if he ever wanted a relationship or at least wanted sex, I thought Shaun had mentioned that he considered that a scientifically understandable biological need and that he took care of that stuff himself. It was an early reason he said he didn't need a girlfriend or care about having one.)

[statsgirl]

After discovering sex with Carly, Shaun said in an episode that now he thinks about sex with everyone. The colleagues he told it to had a TMI expression on their faces.

It was the entitlement that botheref me. He thinks that Lea should be with him because he is willing to change the toilet paper roll to the other direction and stop insisting that the cans be alphabetized.  And when she still turns him down, he thinks it okay to hurt her as she hurt him, by physically attacking her car if necessary and then telling her the most hurtful things that he can think of.

We've all had unrequited loves but most of us are mature enough to accept that we have the suck it up and move on. The ones who can't end up in court.

[bros402]

On 3/28/2020 at 3:27 AM, DarkHorse said:

He's not behaving that way now though and given these shows lack consistency him taking care of himself is probably long forgotten. 

I think he is on the rebound from Carly and just expects Leah to come running to him. Carly certainly didn't help by getting jealous over the chemistry she sensed between Leah and Shaun. 

I have noticed that Shaun is the type of guy that if you told him to go jump off a bridge he would start researching which bridge he was meant to do that from. 

Shaun is way too immature and I think he should be kept well away from patients. 

I'm amused by the own goals the writers are kicking. If this show is meant to present Autistic people as being capable socially than it is failing. 

Yeah, this show could literally make more realistic storylines revolving around autism by just walking into an Easter Seals chapter and asking someone some questions

[Avabelle]

I’m way behind so haven’t been commenting in the threads since it’s so long since it aired. Had to jump in to say - big shock Claire’s platonic friendship with Melendez is not actually platonic. The relationship has Screamed inappropriate from the get go. While Melendez at least realises it Claire’s denial was really irritating to watch as nobody is that naive.

unlike Greys the chemistry between the actors can make you overlook how ridiculously inappropriate it all is I don’t get the sizzles from Claire or Melendez. I just feel really uncomfortable watching them so kudos to the show for accidentally pulling off how creepy a relationship between a boss and pupil can look. 
 

Also really frustrating that everyone who has pointed out how Unfair Melendez glaringly preferential treatment towards Claire is has been painted as evil and in the wrong. It really bugs that nobody can ever call out St. Claire. 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Avabelle

[janest]

I love blanket Shaun was wearing in s03e18, after Leas rejection.

 

Any idea where i can find it and buy it? :)

 

Jana