S06.E04: I'm Still Standing

[Visaman666]

On 2/19/2020 at 7:34 AM, Fostersmom said:

Can Jazz even still go to Pomona without reapplying? She's taking a gap year from Harvard, no? I have no idea how that works, but I'm assuming you have to inform your choice you're taking a gap year and you just don't show up the following year. 

The show is about 6 months to one year behind real life. 

[Visaman666]

On 2/19/2020 at 7:52 AM, bichonblitz said:

I think that is her natural lip line. It's distracting to me, too. Does anybody know what nationality Greg is? All the kids have dark complexions and gorgeous dark, shiny hair. I'm thinking middle eastern? 

Ashkenazi Jew. Greek I think.

[woodscommaelle]

7 hours ago, Bastet said:

It's damaging to treat a girl like her greatest value in life is attracting a boyfriend. 

Jazz Duggar 😉

[Sew Sumi]

4 minutes ago, woodscommaelle said:

Jazz Duggar 😉

In Duggarville, you only attract your future spouse. No casual dating allowed. Too restrictive, even for Jeanette.

[princelina]

3 hours ago, Fostersmom said:

I fully admit this will sound horrible, but Jeanette looks like a man in drag. She's like the spitting image of Tootsie.

This is killing me 😂😂😂

[woodscommaelle]

3 hours ago, Fostersmom said:

 

 

I fully admit this will sound horrible, but Jeanette looks like a man in drag. She's like the spitting image of Tootsie. Sure, it could just be the glasses, but she looks ridiculous all the time.

Now that you say it, she kind of reminds me of:

 

[Fostersmom]

15 minutes ago, princelina said:

This is killing me 😂😂😂

Tell me this isn't her

But now I can't not see this as Greg!

[Joan of Argh]

5 hours ago, Twopper said:

That needed a "spew alert" or other warning as I nearly choked to death on a ginger cookie when I saw that.    Now that you have said that and I have visualized it, I cannot unsee her as Tootsie.    My eyes!!! my brain!!!!

Same here, now that the connections been made that's all I can think of when I look at Jeanette 😲

[kicotan]

21 hours ago, Sile said:

One of the parents said it would cost about the same (a small, liberal arts college costs as much as Harvard?) and there hasn't been a mention of any scholarships, so I'm assuming that the parents are paying.

Pomona has a bit more of a reputation than just being a small, liberal arts college.
 

It is a four-year undergraduate institution, and enrolled approximately 1,700 students representing all 50 U.S. states and 63 countries as of fall 2018.  The college offers 48 majors and 600 courses, though students have access to nearly 2000 additional courses at the other Claremont Colleges.  The college's 140-acre (57 ha) main campus is in a residential community near the foothills of the San Gabriel Mountains.

Pomona has the lowest acceptance rate of any U.S. liberal arts college (7.6% for the 2018 admissions cycle), and is ranked among the top five liberal arts colleges in the country by Forbes, U.S. News & World Report, and The Wall Street Journal/Times Higher Education.   It has an endowment of $2.27 billion as of June 2018, giving it the seventh-highest endowment per student of any college or university in the U.S.  

 In 2018, Niche ranked Pomona as the most diverse college or university in the country; among enrolled students, 74% hail from out of state, 56% receive need-based financial aid, and 61% identify as a person of color or an international student.  The college is a top producer of Fulbright Students and recipients of other fellowships.

For the 2019-2020 term, without housing:
Tuition at Pomona  $52, 412

Tuition at Harvard  $47,730

Could be, Jeanette’s pinching pennies...

Edited February 21, 2020 by kicotan

[gingerella]

It would be interesting to see how Jazz fares if she simply took a break and stepped away from advocacy work to focus on herself - both through solid REAL therapy (later lady with the stupid pork pie hat and Cousin Debbie!), and she explored who she is as a person, not as I AM JAZZ WITH A VAJAYJAY. She has no clue who she is or what she wants in life beyond having her genitals be as realistic as possible. When I see Noelle on screen, she has more going on than just wanting her bottom surgery. She is a well rounded human being who has interests and goals. Jazz has nothing other than her transition/surgeries. I don't think she'd dare well at Pomona either, to be honest, because she is not self motivating and she is lazy with a shit ton of unhealthy habits, the worst of which is a binge eating disorder and not keeping up diligently with her dilation schedule. The lesser issues are just being lazy, looking like her personal hygiene is questionable, making spur of the moment poor decisions based on a 'feeling'...Oh! I just remembered, didn't that psychic tell her that she would have surgical problems if she didn't wait? I think she did...But Jazz spun that...

Jeanette needs extensive therapy as well. I can imagine it's very stressful to have a child with a lot of needs that battles depression and has perhaps expressed suicide even. But that does not condone giving in to them and allowing them to not have therapy. Now that Jazz is 18, it's going to be damn near impossible for them to get her willingly into therapy unless maybe Dr. Bowers and Dr. Ting suggest it, because we know that coming from her family, Jazz has rejected therapy over and over. If I was her parent I'd have made that an iron clad NO CHOICE thing that she had to do, and long term. If she'd been seeing someone good, someone not related to her and someone who'd not been her baby child psychologist, perhaps she would have been prepared for college last Fall. It's weird that the family doesn't see how they're coming off on screen and learn from it. I imagine the grands get it, but they get poo-poo'd if they're out of step with Jazz's wants and needs.

Lastly, this thing about Jazz wanting normal genital sensation and function. I wonder how many people have 'normal' function in every aspect after they transition. Maybe our resident expert @J. Matazz can tell us? Is it typical to have the same/similar sensations after surgery as you had before? What I mean is, when one has their original hardware, is the sensation similar or the same afterwards with new hardware, or is it very different? I ask because as exasperating as Jazz comes across, I too would want whatever 'normal' is after all that surgery. However, in Jazz's case, since she claimed she didn't masturbate and didn't have any orgasms before surgery, I'm not sure she can assess what is 'normal' sensation, if that makes sense. And really, nobody can tell you what's normal because we're all different and feel differently, so it's a conundrum...just thinking aloud...

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

When I see Noelle on screen, she has more going on than just wanting her bottom surgery. She is a well rounded human being who has interests and goals. Jazz has nothing other than her transition/surgeries.

I wonder if that's the only thing the show films/airs her talking about and participating in, and not an accurate reflection of her life these days.  Does anyone here follow her on social media?  If so, does she post about other things?

[iwasish]

Don’t people who binge eat, do it  in private? She has cameras following and filming her stuffing her face. It just seems so staged for the show ( probably because it is!!)

Edited February 21, 2020 by iwasish

[kicotan]

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

Lastly, this thing about Jazz wanting normal genital sensation and function. I wonder how many people have 'normal' function in every aspect after they transition

Not for nothing, but amongst folks who are born with female genitalia, “normal” is not well defined.

5 hours ago, gingerella said:

I ask because as exasperating as Jazz comes across, I too would want whatever 'normal' is after all that surgery. However, in Jazz's case, since she claimed she didn't masturbate and didn't have any orgasms before surgery I'm not sure she can assess what is 'normal' sensation, if that makes sense.

According to the NIH, 40% of women have sexual dysfunction.

“...Common symptoms associated with FSD include diminished vaginal lubrication, pain and discomfort upon intercourse, decreased sense of arousal and difficulty in achieving orgasm...”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3008577/

What Jazz doesn’t know yet is what is “ normal” for her.  For the last 18 years, “normal” has meant no orgasms, very little, if any sexual arousal and she has yet to try out her new vagina to see if it lubricates or causes pain and discomfort during intercourse.

If she is one of the 40% of women who suffer with sexual dysfunction she isn’t alone and it certainly doesn’t mean that her surgery was a failure.

 

[retired watcher]

When did this become the Jeanette show? Also from what I've read Pamona would have been a great fit. Her grandmother is so much more supportive than her mother.

Edited February 22, 2020 by retired watcher

[Sew Sumi]

20 minutes ago, kicotan said:

Not for nothing, but amongst folks who are born with female genitalia, “normal” is not well defined.

According to the NIH, 40% of women have sexual dysfunction.

“...Common symptoms associated with FSD include diminished vaginal lubrication, pain and discomfort upon intercourse, decreased sense of arousal and difficulty in achieving orgasm...”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3008577/

What Jazz doesn’t know yet is what is “ normal” for her.  For the last 18 years, “normal” has meant no orgasms, very little, if any sexual arousal and she has yet to try out her new vagina to see if it lubricates or causes pain and discomfort during intercourse.

If she is one of the 40% of women who suffer with sexual dysfunction she isn’t alone and it certainly doesn’t mean that her surgery was a failure.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the new vagina is self-lubricating. 

[kicotan]

33 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the new vagina is self-lubricating. 

Exactly.

Out the gate, she is checking off one of the hallmark symptoms of FSD amongst women-vaginal dryness.

[kicotan]

1 hour ago, kicotan said:

Exactly.

Out the gate, she is checking off one of the hallmark symptoms of FSD amongst women-vaginal dryness.

Which brings me to another question...

Why are the only women’s issues discussed on the show related to transitioning from male to female only regarding hormone regimens and surgical procedures or the difficulty one encounters when it is hard to “pass”?

What about the things men don’t have so much to worry about? The sexual harassment, the aforementioned FSD, the wage gap, the need to protect oneself from rapists...issues that women have to deal with DAILY?

Being female is so much more than just connecting with a competent plastic surgeon.

Edited February 22, 2020 by kicotan
spelling

[Zuleikha]

but for JoJo to insist that she has "the body of a man" tells me that she really isn't seeing herself clearly at all (or that her main issues are with her genitals and not her boobs) and should be addressing this in therapy.

This show has made me feel that trans teens in general need more, or maybe just better, therapy than they are currently getting. Puberty is a confusing time for everyone. It's painful even when everything is healthy and marks growing towards adulthood when people are not necessarily ready to stop being kids. It's a delicate task to separate out typical puberty feels from trans feels. But it doesn't seem like anyone is trying to do that work.

Jeanette also should probably be in therapy to figure out how to define herself as a separate being from Jazz's advocate. Jeanette and Jazz seem unhealthily entangled. I don't think Jazz should have been pushed into being a trans activist so young. I think it forced Jazz into a certainty that denied her the chance to freely explore all possible options for herself.

[Visaman666]

7 hours ago, kicotan said:

Which brings me to another question...

Why are the only women’s issues discussed on the show related to transitioning from male to female only regarding hormone regimens and surgical procedures or the difficulty one encounters when it is hard to “pass”?

What about the things men don’t have so much to worry about? The sexual harassment, the aforementioned FSD, the wage gap, the need to protect oneself from rapists...issues that women have to deal with DAILY?

Being female is so much more than just connecting with a competent plastic surgeon.

Trans women get beat up and murdered all the time, especially the ones that hang out in bars and prostitutes.

It should also be repeated that only a small percentage of trans women get the full surgery. The more I watch this show, the less inclined I am to get it. In Canada there is only one clinic. It is in Montreal, and was recently ( 2016) fire bombed, which resulted in a longer waiting list for those inclined. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Visaman666

[stacyasp]

On 2/20/2020 at 8:32 AM, Twopper said:

Jeanette seems to be a variation on a "stage mother." She has done this for years ever since she first went on tv with Jazz many years ago.  She makes sure Jazz gets to her tv appearances on time,  she and Greg make make agreements with TLC to film their lives, ;etc.  I don't think she or Jazz have a clue how to disentangle themselves from each other.  I don't think Jeanette's 'career" as a mother- of -trans advocate will last long without having her prop (i.e. Jazz) alongside.  I think Jazz wants to make her own way, but is too overshadowed by the show and her mom to break free.  No wonder she is stressed and depressed.  Her remark about the 50 pound weight she was carrying is sad, because I see her easily stress eating at least 50 pounds. 

I hope they all do well after the cameras are gone.  I can't imagine being any of the other siblings in a family where the primary focus is on Jazz, and it is being filmed from time to time.  Dad wants what mom wants, and mom wants what Jazz wants except if Jazz doesn't want what mom wants then dad sides with mom.  This family is a mess. 

Jeanette = Munchausen by proxy

[Joan of Argh]

51 minutes ago, stacyasp said:

Jeanette = Munchausen by proxy

I've wondered about that too...

I swear sometimes when the doctors have news Jeanette's eyeballs jitter and she looks excited.... I think she enjoys the attention they get when there's complications etc.

I'm not saying she doesn't care about Jazz but I do think she's addicted to the circus like atmosphere and all the attention that comes with it.

[gingerella]

On 2/22/2020 at 7:58 PM, stacyasp said:

Jeanette = Munchausen by proxy

I'm pretty sure that that diagnosis comes with a parent who inflicts or causes their child to have medical issues, doesn't it? In this case, Jeanette doesn't have to do anything to cause issues, she just has to let Jazz make her poor decisions, allow her to not dilate regularly, and let the doctors squabble on camera about what they're going to do as they're starting surgery. The last bit still boggles my mind what with the legal aspects...I wonder if that bickering between Ting and Bowers was real and in the moment, and I wonder if they've comped surgeries as a result...?

[Twopper]

On 2/22/2020 at 2:48 AM, Zuleikha said:

 

This show has made me feel that trans teens in general need more, or maybe just better, therapy than they are currently getting. Puberty is a confusing time for everyone. It's painful even when everything is healthy and marks growing towards adulthood when people are not necessarily ready to stop being kids. It's a delicate task to separate out typical puberty feels from trans feels. But it doesn't seem like anyone is trying to do that work.

Jeanette also should probably be in therapy to figure out how to define herself as a separate being from Jazz's advocate. Jeanette and Jazz seem unhealthily entangled. I don't think Jazz should have been pushed into being a trans activist so young. I think it forced Jazz into a certainty that denied her the chance to freely explore all possible options for herself.

This^^^

So I am wondering if TLC is testing the waters for a spin-off  series with Noelle and Jojo to illustrate the difficulties of being trans without the full support Jazz has had. 

Do Jojo and her mom live with the grandmother?  There was a really quick reference to the family unit so I am wondering if they need grandmother to pay for the surgery,  What will she do if Jojo gets the surgery without her "permission'?   Why is grandmother so involved?  Stayed tuned.

I really think Jojo is so cute now.   She should give Jazz some lessons in wearing clothes that flatter her figure.   I am sure she will find a therapist who will okay the surgery, but I do think they could benefit from some family therapy. 

I accidentally erased this before I could go back and re-watch a few scenes. 

On 2/21/2020 at 4:59 PM, iwasish said:

Don’t people who binge eat, do it  in private? She has cameras following and filming her stuffing her face. It just seems so staged for the show ( probably because it is!!)

Yes, it think most do it in private.  I hope she isn't a  binge/purger.  I only binge a few times a year---mostly on thin mints---but I try to avoid an audience.  I am sure it is staged, and I think the camera cut away a few times so this was probably not all filmed at the same time.  I didn't pay attention to what she was wearing.  I think they do this with the M600PL people, too. (Not that the 600 pounders aren't eating much too much without prompting by TLC). 

[CousinAmy]

I think the whole college debate would make more sense to the audience if we had seen Jazz doing schoolwork her senior year. She was the Valedictorian of her Homeschool class? Did she wrote papers, correspond with her teachers or other students? She gave the audience the impression that she was lazy and pretty much blew off school, so how did she get accepted to Harvard? 

I recently connected with a second cousin I've never known who is part of the California branch of our (mostly) New York family. It turns out her son was a famous child actor. When I talked to her on the phone I asked her what she had done for work (we are both in our 70s so I assumed she was retired) and she said, 'managed my son's career.' Later I found an article about what a determined stage mother she had been. Jeanette's career is managing Jazz.

What is Jazz going to do with her college education? If she is going to be a trans advocate I'm not sure she needs to go to Harvard for that. Maybe she wants to be an inspirational speaker like Oprah? Who worked for years in local TV markets to get to have her own platform. A successful speaker or advocate should have an academic background in their subject as well as being passionate about it. 

[iwasish]

Jazz’s friend is so much more comfortable in her female self. Her physical movements, the way she sits, moves, uses her hands are all so feminine. Jazz walks and sits like a truck driver. 

[Nancy S]

I think Jazz should be a Gator like her siblings (Close enough to home but far enough away from mom and dad) or she should go to FAU which is just a hop, skip and jump away from their house (I also think Jazz is not mature enough to live too far away). Both schools are state schools and are cheaper than Harvard or Pomona. Without any clear direction on what she wants to major in she should NOT be going to Harvard.  Go Gators!

[anikamelkote]

This girl just needs all the love in the world. Despite the hate and people who just outright disrespect her, she just keeps going, supporting herself, and supporting the people she loves and cares about. She is so amazingly strong, and I give her so much credit for everything she has done. She really has created  an impact, on not just me, but to so many people in the world who can now understand the world from her perspective. 

[galaxychaser]

On 3/18/2020 at 9:35 AM, iwasish said:

Jazz’s friend is so much more comfortable in her female self. Her physical movements, the way she sits, moves, uses her hands are all so feminine. Jazz walks and sits like a truck driver. 

I’m a biological female and I behave like a man 🤣🤣🤣. Not feminine at all. 

[all4mom2]

On 2/19/2020 at 7:52 AM, bichonblitz said:

I think that is her natural lip line. It's distracting to me, too. Does anybody know what nationality Greg is? All the kids have dark complexions and gorgeous dark, shiny hair. I'm thinking middle eastern? 

They're of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry, which has origins in the middle east.  "23 and Me" has an informative online article on the ethnicity.

Edited October 9, 2021 by all4mom2

[all4mom2]

On 2/19/2020 at 2:22 PM, Kid said:

By the way, giving someone who has an eating disorder a dozen donuts is like giving heroin to a heroin addict. If that was not production driven,  Jeanette should be ashamed of herself.  

...or even if it was.

[all4mom2]

On 2/19/2020 at 3:29 PM, princelina said:

IMO Jeanette is bored with Florida and wouldn't mind trying out a winter or two in New England in a cute apartment with Jazz.  But Jazz just won't see that that's what's best for her!

I don't know if she's "bored with Florida," per se, but after the massive meltdown she had when the twins went off to college, I'm sure she's not looking forward to being an empty-nester for real (well, Sander is still sitting in his bedroom making TikTok videos) or moving to some condo with just Greg, whom she doesn't seem to fully appreciate, so I could definitely see her taking an apartment with or near Jazz in Cambridge as a second home.  They were originally from New York state, so she might enjoy living up north again.

Edited October 9, 2021 by all4mom2

[all4mom2]

On 2/25/2020 at 11:37 AM, gingerella said:

I'm pretty sure that that diagnosis comes with a parent who inflicts or causes their child to have medical issues, doesn't it? In this case, Jeanette doesn't have to do anything to cause issues...?

I think that's debatable.  80% of those with gender dysphoria eventually reconcile themselves to their assigned sex after puberty if not influenced.  Between Cousin Debbie effectively diagnosing her as transgender at age 2 (I realize that another, unrelated counselor had to formally diagnose her, but Debbie got the ball rolling) and Jeanette pushing her front and center before the public so that Jazz couldn't ever change her mind even if she wanted to, it can be argued that the issues were inflicted.

Edited October 9, 2021 by all4mom2

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, all4mom2 said:

I think that's debatable.  80% of those with gender dysphoria eventually reconcile themselves to their assigned sex after puberty if not influenced.  Between Cousin Debbie effectively diagnosing her as transgender at age 2 (I realize that another, unrelated counselor had to formally diagnose her, but Debbie got the ball rolling) and Jeanette pushing her front and center before the public so that Jazz couldn't ever change her mind even if she wanted to, it can be argued that the issues were inflicted.

I don't know, that's a big statement to make IMO. Jazz is nothing if not stubborn about getting what she wants when she wants it. Hence her weight issues. Hence her post-surgical issues because Bowers told her she didn't have enough tissue to make a good vagina. Hence, hence, hence. If Jazz wanted to change her mind I believe she could and would have. It's not clear from that article - and I wish they'd clarify it because it's a big statement to make - how far along in transitioning these fade trans teens are. I could see this if it's just about presenting as another gender, but to start taking hormones and getting surgeries to align one's body with what's in one's head? I think once one is that that level they're pretty clear who they are. The fact that Bowers made that statement without providing more facts and details is a bit surprising to me. I would have expected more from her.

[all4mom2]

This was all set in motion before Jazz was two; by the time she was 5-6, she had publicly declared.  By the time she was 11, she was a celebrity due to this identity.  She has no idea who she is aside from that.  I don't personally believe it's even remotely possible for her to reverse course; she, her family, her doctors, TLC, the trans community, and the whole world has too much invested in this "journey" she was set upon.

When she has past-life memories of not being accepted for who she is, gets panic attacks whenever challenged, and states that she can't communicate what she's feeling, I hear her saying that she has something to say, but isn't allowed to say it.  It would be too devastating to everyone surrounding her.

What more do you expect Bowers to say about blockers?  I thought she made her position pretty clear.

Edited October 9, 2021 by all4mom2

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Reminder: At Primetimer, we accept that Jazz is a transgender woman. Full stop.  We will not debate the validity of experiences of any transgender persons on this site.  Before posting, read the Mod note for this forum.