Littlefinger: Petyr Baelish

[Rhondinella]

He's little!  He has fingers!  He's Littlefinger!

[joliefaire]

His tagline should be:  Trust Me, if you Dare.

I've been amazed that fans apparently don't zero in on that fact that the show dresses Littlefinger as a pervy Catholic priest.  His outfits are virtual cassocks, his Mockingbird sigil pin at his throat is in the form of a cross, he commonly stands with his hands clasped in front of him, chest-high, as though in prayer.  *shudder*  Combine that with his oily smooth way of moving in way too close when talking, especially when it involves Sansa, and how his eyes follow her and focus on her, and all your instincts begin to shriek 'Pedo Perv Priest!' even if your conscious mind doesn't make the connection.

Setting aside the offense this characterization may (probably does) cause to devout Catholics, from a cinematic perspective, its brilliant characterization.  He only has to ooze into a scene to make your primal instincts perk up and grow wary--something wrong here, something...dangerous.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/joliefaire/littlefinger.jpg

[CletusMusashi]

I still think Tyrion should be the one named Littlefinger.

A guy who owns a chain of brothels that he's always running in and out of with hookers ought to be named Hodor.

[sev]

He scares me -- the "chaos is a ladder" montage is chilling.

There are a lot of psychos in Westeros (Ramsey, Joffrey), but Littlefinger is one willing to sell people to those sadists.

I'm with Varys: "Littlefinger would see the realm burn if he would be king of the ashes".

Edited April 9, 2014 by sev

[joliefaire]

So, everybody's favorite treacherous pimp is on his way to woo (barf) and try to marry (barf) craycray Lysa.  How's that gonna go?  Any speculations, outcome of that marriage made in Seven Hells that you want to see? 

Edited April 13, 2014 by joliefaire

[GreyBunny]

About his characterization:

What disappoints me is on the show is how he's basically outed as a slimy social climber. In the books he has them all fooled.

Late in the story he's still regarded highly by those who were around him - Cersei wants him to come back, she freely sends him the tapestries he requested, and Jaime thinks he'd make a good Hand. No one has a clue that Petyr's pulling the strings to bring them all down.

Petyr is much more subtle than in the show which is what makes him so dangerous and that is why I love the sociopathic perv.

Edited April 13, 2014 by GreyBunny

[joliefaire]

I think Aiden Gillen is so strong in this role--all Littlefinger has to do is walk into a scene and I start getting the creepy-crawlies.  Him with his sideways-sliding eyes and his pervy-pedo-priest cassock outfits, his hands clasped in front of him like a monk, and his little silver mockingbird pin that looks like a cross.  He always stands too close, his face too close, he violates personal space, especially with Sansa *shudder*  A masterful performance--I always want to take a shower (alone!) after he's slimed his way into and out of a scene.  For all that his livelihood is dealing in human flesh (didn't Varys mention something way back when about how difficult it must be for Littlefinger to find fresh attractive corpses for his clients who're inclined that way?  eek.)  He himself is always covered, concealed, high collar to long skirts, hands folded and expressionless.  Everything about him makes my instincts yell 'Run!'

All that said, can't wait til he oozes his way back onscreen!  :P

[CletusMusashi]

I like him when he's subtle. Honestly: as much as I cringed at Ned Stark for confiding in Cersei, I could totally understand trying to work with Ho-Door. However, when he gets all deep and Batmannny and wants to growl soliloquies about chaos being a ladder, that, to me, ruins the whole point of having the character there in the first place.

What's worse than "tell don't show" writing? Tell don't show" writing in which the other characters are usually too busy with more important things to do the telling. If he'd kept right on being convincing, with scenes of how duplicitous he was being with people, all mixed up with scenes of Varys and/or Tyrion talking about how full of shit he was... that would be the way to sell the character.

Anyway, I do still wish him good luck in the Eyrie. He's gonna need it.

[Potanical Pardon]

He's got my vote for endgame Big Bad.

I can't recall the dialogue, but his having Tywin's blessing to go off to The Vale to bring Lyssa back into the fold of the realm implied to me that he has some sort of ability to convince Lyssa that no one else has. Remember, after Jon Aryn's death she wanted nothing to do with the realm. She was only to eager to let Tyrion die. And she didn't allow Cat any of her army to aid the Starks. We know that Littlefinger grew up with both Cat and Lyssa. So he must have some sort of IN with Lyssa if everyone seems to be sure he can succeed at getting her to agree to whatever Littlefinger wants.

[bluvelvet]

I can't believe I am saying this, but I miss Littlefinger...when was the last time we were up close and personal with his smarm...

*goes and hides in a corner*

[Lady S.]

I can't recall the dialogue, but his having Tywin's blessing to go off to The Vale to bring Lyssa back into the fold of the realm implied to me that he has some sort of ability to convince Lyssa that no one else has. Remember, after Jon Aryn's death she wanted nothing to do with the realm. She was only to eager to let Tyrion die. And she didn't allow Cat any of her army to aid the Starks. We know that Littlefinger grew up with both Cat and Lyssa. So he must have some sort of IN with Lyssa if everyone seems to be sure he can succeed at getting her to agree to whatever Littlefinger wants.

 

 

Lysa did live at court for years, he's not going in as blind as Cat was. (Though Varys looks to be skeptical that any woman would want Littlefinger.)

[joliefaire]

There's been a lot of criticism around the boards about Littlefinger's weird accent in the last episode.  I didn't notice it myself, but I did come across this jewel over at TWoP episode thread.  Gave me a laugh!

 

At first I thought Baelish was trying to whisper and hiss to keep his voice down and/or sound menacing.  Then I just concluded he was speaking parseltongue.

[CletusMusashi]

As I said before, it bothers me that he's acting like some mustache-twirling comic book villain instead of as an actual competant sneaky person. But I think I understand why they've made that change.  With Joffster out of the spotlight, there's a huge vacuum to fill. Waiting to see Joffrey get killed, or even slapped, was a huge draw for viewers. Nobody else inspires that level of hatred, even though others most certainly are just as horrible. Who's gonna be the most hated character now?

Cersei? Please, not even close. Cersei geting raped still upsets us. Joffrey geting raped? Might have been funny. Littlefinger getting raped? In the early seasons, we'd have felt that was a bit much. Nowadays, the way he's depicted, I don't know. I think that if, right after his "chaos is a ladder" speech, or right after he killed Don Toes, if right then Shagga had popped out of the shadows and raped Littlefinger while shouting "Squeal like a suckling boar, tiny Frank Zappa man!" a lot of us would have laughed. So that's my "worst villain" test. The goal is to find someone so hated by us that other characters can do whatever the hell they want to them, and we'll be fine with it. Ramsay Snow is also top-tier horrible, but he's not particularly unique. The Mountain, who we rarely even see, does more torturing and killing in a day than Ramsay does in a week. But Littlefinger is a powerful, far-reaching, entirely out for himself douchebag, and by frequently removing the more interesting human layers from his personality I think they might be setting him up as our new Joffrey.

The upside is that channeling some of our hatred elsewhere allows people like Cersei and Theon to still be sympathetic.

The downside is that his character's whole schtick seems to be making people trust him so that he can screw them over, and it becomes increasingly hard to believe that anyone whatsoever would trust him. Well, okay, except maybe Sansa...

Edited April 27, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[John Potts]

Littlefinger is one of two characters I definitely want to see dead come the end of the Series (the other is Roose Bolton). The guy is such slime, I just want one of his schemes to blow up in his face and take him down with it.

 

Of course, he is such an opportunist that he is also the type of character who could easily come out on top (well, almost on top - I can't see any path to him as being King, but I can easily see him as the new Tywin).

[bluvelvet]

Seriously Littlefinger and Sansa was all kinds of skeevy.  I hope Sansa knows not to fully trust the man.  The actor's accent was slipping into his dialect a bit here and he also sounded different from how he did last week. He voice was less deep.

[Joystickenvy]

I think Littlefinger is one of those things that could survive a nuclear holocaust along with cockroaches, Twinkies and tardigrades.

[Conan Troutman]

I think he eventually gets to sit on the Iron Throne - only to be killed by White Walkers or dragons five minutes later. 

[Lady S.]

Seriously Littlefinger and Sansa was all kinds of skeevy.  I hope Sansa knows not to fully trust the man.  The actor's accent was slipping into his dialect a bit here and he also sounded different from how he did last week. He voice was less deep.

Littlefinger's creepy interest in Sansa has been there from the start and even Ned could sense it. Witness Ned's stink-eye that got Littlefinger to remove his hand at the tourney.

 

And in case anyone forgot, here's his pause when Sansa asks what he wants.

 

This is the same guy who tried to hit on Catelyn when giving her Ned's bones, it's no surprise he not a master villain with her daughter in his clutches. Fate has given him another chance.

[CletusMusashi]

Yeah, I'm guessing that maybe Sansa looks more like young Catelyn to him than to our TV screens. Maybe Cat used to be a foot taller? In any case, Sansa seems to be the official replacement for the love of his life. 

There has to be a loneliness factor to his stupidity. Much as I hate his Bond villain speeches, he doesn't do them at everybody. Sometimes at Varys, when he's really desperate for peer approval, but mostly just at Sansa.

Also interesting, the only female employee who we've seen him elevate to elite second banana status, no matter how temporarily, was Ros. He obviously likes having a redhead around to listen to how brilliant he is. Too bad Margery's out of his league. Hey, what color hair does Varys have, anyway?

[Zalyn]

Yeah, I'm guessing that maybe Sansa looks more like young Catelyn to him than to our TV screens. Maybe Cat used to be a foot taller? In any case, Sansa seems to be the official replacement for the love of his life. 

[snip] He obviously likes having a redhead around to listen to how brilliant he is. Too bad Margery's out of his league. Hey, what color hair does Varys have, anyway?

Yup, he's got a thing for redheads.  I do think that they've tried to give Sansa on the show hair like Catelyn's.  We don't see it down much because it's always up in King's Landing styles. 

 

I see a lot of differing opinions on Aidan Gillen's portrayal; overall I really like him in the part because he clearly puts a great deal into it.  As joliefaire said, he includes a lot of subtle physicality that adds to the ick factor in such great ways; I always enjoy intense actors who get in each others' space (I'm reminded of Anthony Stewart Head getting lectured in Season 1 of Buffy because he was making some uncomfortable with getting in the faces of the young cast). 

 

This despite being quite an attractive chap - he and Sir Iain Glen both

"handsomed up" their characters from the books

- but for me his voice usually is too deep to match his physicality.  I think his voice works well on its own, and his presence/look works well, but not together.  Despite that, I love having him around to give us another type of evil.

[LightKo]

I take the accent shift to be tactical -- both on the part of the actor and the character. His more "refined" voice is a court voice, one used when talking to Lannisters, for example. His rougher accent (perhas closer to his natural cadance?) is coming through as he sheds his Kings Landing skin and now evolves into a new kind of snake.

[CletusMusashi]

That's one of the better arguments for it. But why shed his skin now? It's still early in the game. He should be cultivating his fancy improved self, not getting increasingly sloppy. It's not even like the new voice is more comforting, or that it's expected from him by people outside of KL. If either of those were the case, he'd have been talking that way in Season 1, to Catelyn at least. I may just throw in the towel and start assuming he's got something wrong with his throat lately. And it manifests when he's excited. And when he tries to fight it and get his voice pitch back up to normal, that causes his accent to slip, making the whole problem even worse.

[Constantinople]

One of Littlefinger's weaknesses is that he's a braggart, see the time he almost got himself killed trying to one-up Cersei in their game of not so veiled allusions.

 

But it seems he usually tailors his braggadocio to his audience.  He spells it out for those who need it (Sansa), but remains more cryptic for those who can fill in the blanks (Varys).  Otherwise, they won't realize how smart he is.

[GreyBunny]

To steal a phrase (sort of) from Davos:  "If you're famous for being sneaky, you're doing it wrong."  The only person he's been able to fool is Ned, which isn't hard.  When even Sansa knows you can't be trusted you need to rethink your strategy for being sneaky.

[Lady S.]

Yeah, I'm guessing that maybe Sansa looks more like young Catelyn to him than to our TV screens. Maybe Cat used to be a foot taller? In any case, Sansa seems to be the official replacement for the love of his life.

I actually like that onscreen, Sansa only has Catelyn's hair but Arya has more of her facial features. I take it as another sign of Littlefinger's total delusion when it comes to his Cat fixation.

 

Littlefinger does love hearing himself talk to prove what a badass gameplayer he is, but I think the difference with his monologues to Varys and to Sansa is that he really wants Sansa to like him as a person as well as appreciate him as a gameplayer. Look how clever he was getting her out of King's Landing and getting rid of her father's murderer (a murder that pleased him and he had a part in, but he doesn't let her know that part), and now he's getting her to safety and is the only person she can trust. It's the same reason he made sure to have Dontos killed right in front of her, to make her understand his way of doing things and someday come to love him for the man he is, the way he thinks he deserves. He's re-doing things with his new Catelyn Tully 2.0 in a way he thinks is sure to result in a better outcome, with no rejection. This Catelyn Tully 2.0 has no Hoster Tully to protect and guide her and pick a suitable mate, no Brandon Stark to prefer over Petyr, no Ned Stark to actually marry and love her, and no Edmure Tully to compare Petyr to as "a little brother to me". No, his Catelyn Tully 2.0 is an impressionable girl with no father, no husband, and no brothers around, Petyr is the only man in her life and he can mold her into a woman worthy of him. She's completely in his power and that was his design, the real reason Joffrey was murdered on his wedding day, causing a distraction that allowed Sansa to escape into his custody.

[Luciaphile]

It's quite arguable that Petyr never loved Catelyn. He loved the idea of her, just as he likes the idea of Sansa. They're not people to him. They're game pieces. He's grooming Sansa, has been grooming her all along, in the way that child molesters groom their victims.

[Constantinople]

It's quite arguable that Petyr never loved Catelyn. He loved the idea of her, just as he likes the idea of Sansa. They're not people to him. They're game pieces. He's grooming Sansa, has been grooming her all along, in the way that child molesters groom their victims.

I agree.

If Petyr had grown up with the Lannisters, Cersei would have been his one "true love". If he'd grown up with the Starks, it would have been Lyanna.

[Fen]

It's quite arguable that Petyr never loved Catelyn. He loved the idea of her, just as he likes the idea of Sansa

 

I think his initial feelings were genuine, but after the duel, they got all twisted up in wanting to prove himself and defeat his 'betters'. 

[Lady S.]

Yeah, I think Catelyn herself was significant as more than just the girl he grew up with, by her own admission they were quite close (I can't imagine the same being true if he'd grown up with Cersei), the big issue was she never felt the same way he did and instead thought of him as a little brother. I do very much doubt Littlefinger's ability to truly love anyone. Not getting to marry who you wish to because of class differences must be a normal enough occurrence in Westeros, but simmering in resentment for almost 20 years, biding your time to take down your intended's eventual spouse while plotting to take over the world, then kidnapping your intended's daughter to start over, is not a normal person's response to rejection. Losing the duel may have been his "trigger" as they say on Criminal Minds, but losing a duel you initiated for a girl who didn't even want you is way, way down there in terms of GoT adolescent trauma.

[John Potts]

Luciaphile It's quite arguable that Petyr never loved Catelyn. He loved the idea of her, just as he likes the idea of Sansa.

 

 

I'm pretty sure that for Petyr "love" is just another word for "own", just like he "owns" his "working girls".

[CletusMusashi]

So two of the things he loves most are persuading others... and bragging about how sly is.

Shouldn't he be better at the second one by now?

Olenna left Margey in the dark just as much as Littlefinger left Sansa. And it's good strategy, because it keeps them from acting guilty.

But when it comes time for the big "I saved you!" reveal... try thinking about it for a second. How long did the plot take? And you're only now standing there like "Duh... what do girls like, anyway? Oh! I know! Watching me kill the guy who just saved them, and then listening to me brag about how I did it all to advance my political aspirations! Dude, I am so in!"

Olenna is as big a powerplayer as Littlefinger, but she's not a narcissistic sociopath, so when she finally bragged about it she remembered that an important reason to list might be with "I did it for you." 

Littlefinger could have used almost the same argument. Obviously, Sansa wasn't about to marry the Joffster, but there was enough obviously traumatic history there that it wouldn't have taken a genius to come up with: "Yeah, his administration was profitable for me personally, but I'm not a total asshole. I've seen the way he treated people. You, your family, yadda yadda yadda..." 

[Indi]

"I don't want friends like me." Well, at least he's not completely delusional about himself.

[Fen]

And you're only now standing there like "Duh... what do girls like, anyway? Oh! I know! Watching me kill the guy who just saved them, and then listening to me brag about how I did it all to advance my political aspirations! Dude, I am so in!"

Olenna is as big a powerplayer as Littlefinger, but she's not a narcissistic sociopath, so when she finally bragged about it she remembered that an important reason to list might be with "I did it for you."

Littlefinger could have used almost the same argument. Obviously, Sansa wasn't about to marry the Joffster, but there was enough obviously traumatic history there that it wouldn't have taken a genius to come up with: "Yeah, his administration was profitable for me personally, but I'm not a total asshole. I've seen the way he treated people. You, your family, yadda yadda yadda..."

 

Weird as it sounds, I don't think he wants to trick her at this point.  He kills Ser Dontos right in front of her and explains exactly why he did it.  He asks if she can remember what he told her about Kings' Landing, and is pleased when she can remember.   He wants to teach her.

[dr pepper]

His tagline should be:  Trust Me, if you Dare.

 

I think it should be: Smile, and be a villain.

[Fable]

Littlefinger is kind of an interesting character study.  He was the boy-next-door who really wanted, but couldn't get, the girl so decided instead to climb the chaos ladder to prove himself.  I don't think he considered Cat a piece on the board, but I do think he loved the idea of her more than loved her in reality, although I do think once he realized he was out of the game, he decided to play his own game.

[TooMuchCoffee]

So how much of Westeros can Littlefinger now more or less lay claim to?  Harrenhall (awarded to him by  Joffrey), the Vale (marriage to Lyssa), the Riverlands also by marriage? (are there any male Tullys left or do the lands go to Lyssa?).  He's angling for the North by holding Sansa.  

[Constantinople]

So how much of Westeros can Littlefinger now more or less lay claim to?  Harrenhall (awarded to him by  Joffrey), the Vale (marriage to Lyssa), the Riverlands also by marriage? (are there any male Tullys left or do the lands go to Lyssa?).  He's angling for the North by holding Sansa.  

 

Lysa's brother Edmure is still alive, so he's technically still Lord of the Riverlands, though i think Walder Frey thinks of himself as Lord of the Riverlands now in fact, if not in name (he alluded to that when speaking to Roose Bolton after the Red Wedding).

 

While Sansa's identity remains secret, he can't claim the North since his niece Elaine -- or whatever variation of Elaine it was.  The Seven forbid we ever meet someone named Thomas or Peter or Edward or Catherine or Lisa -- has no claim to the North.

[TooMuchCoffee]

Lysa's brother Edmure is still alive, so he's technically still Lord of the Riverlands, though i think Walder Frey thinks of himself as Lord of the Riverlands now in fact, if not in name (he alluded to that when speaking to Roose Bolton after the Red Wedding).

 

While Sansa's identity remains secret, he can't claim the North since his niece Elaine -- or whatever variation of Elaine it was.  The Seven forbid we ever meet someone named Thomas or Peter or Edward or Catherine or Lisa -- has no claim to the North. 

How could I have forgotten Edmure!  

[Constantinople]

How could I have forgotten Edmure!  

 

Otherwise known as Cat's younger brother, Katmiss, for his archery skills (I totally stole that nickname from a TWoP Walking Dead poster).

[Lady S.]

Petyr, saying Lysa was positively predisposed toward you was definitely putting it mildly.

Question, is the Jon Arryn reveal coming on the heels of the Joffrey reveal what makes people scoff? The former was still a convoluted scheme but I think it's more clear what was in it for Littlefinger. Or did everyone else think he was actively plotting all through s1 and only decided to act when Ned asked him to help with the goldcloaks?

[Constantinople]

I think Littlefinger was keeping a lot of irons in the fire, and selecting which one to use depending on how things turned out.

One of his long-terms goals was to murder Jon Arryn so that he could marry Lysa and become acting Lord of the Vale (I don't think Lysa would have cared too much about whether Littlefinger was the nominal Lord of Harrenhal). But he also wanted to divert suspicion by blaming the Lannisters.

If Ned cast his lot with LF, and thus the Lannisters, LF said he wanted a modest reward. I suspect that was marrying Lysa (among other rewards). But Ned cast his lot with Stannis. LF sticks with the Lannisters, and as a loyal retainer, and about the only person who can bring Lysa back into the fold, he gets to marry Lysa.

Killing Joffrey makes a lot of sense for LF because, as LF noted, Joffrey is simply too unpredictable. What doesn't make sense is Tyrells, specifically, Olenna, trusting Littlefinger enough to conspire to commit regicide with him.

But LF isn't omniscient, nor is he perfect. He had no way of knowing that Tyrion and Catelyn would be in the same tavern at the same time, nor that Catelyn would take Tyrion to the Vale. Nor could he have known how Joffrey would treat Tyrion at Joffrey's wedding feast, thereby making Tyrion look guiltier than he already did. Nor, assuming LF wasn't the one behind Bran's failed assassination, could he have known that a Valyrian dagger would be the weapon of choice. LF merely benefited from that.

LF is generally excellent at

 

• making plans to achieve his long-term goals
• improvising, as and when necessary, while still keeping his goals in mind
• lying
• convincing others how they would mutually benefit form working with him while (I suppose that's a specific example of lying)
• appearing unthreatening

 

In short, LF would do extremely well at Survivor.

That being said, I don't think LF's position is strong as all that. He can consolidate his control within the Vale, and use the Red Wedding as an excuse to use the Vale's soldiers to take control of parts of the Riverlands. But aside from that, he's essentially in internal exile unless he keeps flitting back to the capital.  LF also must know, or should know, that it makes as much sense for the Tyrells to kill him, as it did for LF to kill Donotos Holland.

Perhaps more importantly, to paraphrase Varys, "No one cries for spiders, whores or Littlefingers". No one will give a rat's ass the moment LF shuffles off the mortal coil.

I haven't read the books, so I don't know if LF lives or dies, but if he dies, I suspect it will be something similar to his confrontation with Cersei in the S2 premiere. He's off guard because he thinks he's safe and he mouths off because he's too impressed with himself. Then the other person basically says to him or herself, fuck it, I don't need this guy, he's just not worth the aggravation. Only this time, unlike Cersei, they don't revoke the order to kill him.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Constantinople

[CletusMusashi]

I'm rewatching the whole series, and just got to Ep 7. Even back then, he really did talk about his plans way, way, way more than any intelligently written criminal mastermind really should. So I'll accept that it's a well-established character trait. But, god damn it, he really needs to bring some trainee-whores up to the Eyrie to practice faking orgasms, during his monologues, because that really did make his speeches a hell of a lot more fun. I doubt Robin would complain either, although, considering how much he freaked out over the idea that people on the ground do not have moon doors, seven gods only know what the kid would make of non-lactating nipples.

I do think he plays it better with Ned Stark than I remembered. You get to focusing on the new eps and remembering the older ones through a bit of a tinted lens, colored by such memes as "Stark was incredibly stupid," and "Littlefinger never shuts up about how untrustworthy he is." But, honestly, he played Ned reasonably plausibly. The long-ass speech to a bunch of hookers about why he's a James Bond villain, though, seems a tad impractical. It's not even like he was "in the zone," confessing everything to Ros right before he put on his Lord Bigfinger Stark costume and shagged her. He was invited to join them and had no interest.

 

Some people complain about the sextrapolation because it's "cheap" or dirty" or whatever. Me, I usually enjoyed it. Not so much with, say, Renly and Loras, but even though they're not my demographic I still was okay with it as a way of establishing different things both physically and verbally in the same moment. I mean, I never sat there wondering "Wait, why would Loras say that while in bed with Renly?" Actually, I was just reminded in this rewatch of how much I liked him being offended at something he practiced his ass off for being called a gift. But with Littlefinger... yeah. It's like the writers are periodically just giving up and treating him as a free "talk to the audience" card.

 

Funny thing. I only mentioned that Ser Loras; "Hey, I practice fighting!" example as an example of sextrapolation that worked as characterization, as opposed to sextrapolation that was funny and sexy but didn't actually make sense. But what does Littlefinger bitch about in his Episode 7 villain speech? The fact that he lost a duel and learned that, henceforth, he must always be as lying and full of shit as possible, because he's not a gifted sword fighter! So thinking of that now, I give the speech some extra points for content, but still not for audience. Finger and Varys riffing each other, when they both already know that the other guys knows anyway? That works. Littlefinger confessing everything to newbie whores? It just doesn't seem like as secure a vault. 

 

He's like The Motherfucker, in "Kickass 2," building his army of supervillains while Twittering about it the entire time. Except that there's not even any army of superviallins. There's just him, and whatever the closest facsimile of Catelyn he can find is. An army of supervillains would be completely useless to him, because he would have to poison them all anyway, on the suspicion that they had bigger fingers than he did.

 

ETA: No, maybe he didn't play it so well with Ned. In Episode 8, when Stark announces the "discovery," LF goes into yet another "How I Spent MY Summer Vacation Being Sneaky" essay. I guess the character always sucked. It's just way more noticeable nowadays, without gratuitous female nudity.

Edited May 24, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[Lady S.]

I'm rewatching the whole series, and just got to Ep 7. Even back then, he really did talk about his plans way, way, way more than any intelligently written criminal mastermind really should. So I'll accept that it's a well-established character trait. But, god damn it, he really needs to bring some trainee-whores up to the Eyrie to practice faking orgasms, during his monologues, because that really did make his speeches a hell of a lot more fun. I doubt Robin would complain either, although, considering how much he freaked out over the idea that people on the ground do not have moon doors, seven gods only know what the kid would make of non-lactating nipples.

I do think he plays it better with Ned Stark than I remembered. You get to focusing on the new eps and remembering the older ones through a bit of a tinted lens, colored by such memes as "Stark was incredibly stupid," and "Littlefinger never shuts up about how untrustworthy he is." But, honestly, he played Ned reasonably plausibly. The long-ass speech to a bunch of hookers about why he's a James Bond villain, though, seems a tad impractical. It's not even like he was "in the zone," confessing everything to Ros right before he put on his Lord Bigfinger Stark costume and shagged her. He was invited to join them and had no interest.

Yeah, I'm not a big Ned fan, but I really think people get overboard in judging the Starks with hindsight vision, when I doubt all of the audience would see through the royal court shenanigans that much better. Littlefinger actually does his best to get the Starks to trust him, playing on his friendship with Cat and handing Ned "clues" for his investigation.

 

The other thing to remember is that Littlefinger and Varys were actually working in tandem prior to Ned's arrest. It's Varys who finds out Cat is in town and tells Littlefinger, Varys who asks her to show them the dagger, and then Varys all but confirms Littlefinger's lie about Tyrion by standing there nonplussed and not contradicting him. Why would two of the king's councilors knowingly mislead the king's hand and frame the king's brother-in-law? We know Littlefinger lies like a bear shits in the woods, but the Starks have no way of knowing he was behind Lysa's letter, he claims not to know anything about the dagger before Varys brings it up, and Cat hadn't told him her suspicions about either of the attacks on Bran. So why lie to make the Starks distrust the Lannisters more, if the only Stark/Lannister conflict he should know about is Arya vs. Joffrey? Either a childhood friend is genuinely trying to help, or two of the king's councilors are knowingly fomenting a possible civil war for their own personal reasons. Can we blame the Starks that much for not jumping to the latter conclusion? His story is full of holes, but the beauty of the lie is the characteristic brazenness. What kind of pathological headcase makes their lies less believable than they need to be? He didn't need to say that Tyrion won the dagger by betting against Jaime, all Ned would have to do is ask Renly about the Imp's gambling habits when he sees Renly bet at the Hand's tourney. But Ned chooses not to investigate the dagger story at all, showing he believes it. Because a clever liar would come up with a better lie than that, right?

 

But Littlefinger's initial "help" isn't why Ned trusts him to help later, it's not Cat's approval either, he still doesn't like the guy at the end of ep 3 and he believes Littlefinger still has the hots for his wife. Then Ned bumbles into the start of his Jon Arryn murder investigation by questioning Pycelle, and later Littlefinger comes in to offer his help with that too. Baelish explains that news travels in the Red Keep so everyone knows about Ned asking questions about Jon Arryn, he points out Varys's and Cersei's spies as well as his own, and give Ned two leads: newly knighted Ser Hugh and a bastard-harboring blacksmith. Then he warns Ned not to question Ser Hugh himself as part of his overall lesson on discretion. That's why Ned says maybe he was wrong to distrust Baelish and we get the line about distrusting being wise, so it's not so much Baelish admitting he is a slimeball as saying it's safer not to trust anyone.

 

And then we have Ser Hugh refusing to speak to Jory, (as Littlefinger could have predicted when he told Ned to send someone else) so Ned goes with Jory openly to meet the blacksmith. The next day Ser Hugh is killed by the Mountain before Ned can ever meet him. Knowing who Jon Arryn's true murderer was, this means Ser Hugh was likely a catspaw/patsy like Ser Dontos was. Perhaps Ser Hugh was spying for Littlefinger while he was a squire and let him know all about Jon Arryn's twincest investigation, then Littlefinger recommended his knighthood to Robert and bought his pretty suit of armor, planning to arrange his permanent silence once Ned was around. Or maybe Ser Hugh was just pompous but innocent and Littlefinger led Cersei to believe this guy was who she had to thank for ridding her of Jon Arryn. We're likely never going to know for sure, because that's not the important part. What matters is Barristan thought this kid had no business being a tourney knight at all, let alone going up against the worst possible opponent, yet someone rigged the draw to make sure he faced the Mountain on his first run. Even if Gregor only wounded him, it'd be easy enough for someone with access to poisons to finish him off. Whatever Hugh did or didn't do, his untimely death just after Ned is told about him makes him look really important and therefore Littlefinger looks like a source of very important information. And of course his death makes the Lannisters look that much more suspicious.

 

Ep 5 on is about where I think Baelish's true colors really start to show and Ned should be judged for going along with him.

 

As the for monologue accompanied by amateur lesbian porn, my problem is just the distraction of Littlefinger interrupting his spiel to say things like "play with her ass". But is anything he says there really that risky? He says he wants everything and is going to fuck people to get it, that's...vague and crazy, who besides Varys would even listen to that? And Varys already knows he's an amoral madman. That he lost a duel with Brandon Stark and still holds a torch for Catelyn isn't exactly a secret.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Lady S.

[Conan Troutman]

Yeah, I'm not a big Ned fan, but I really think people get overboard in judging the Starks with hindsight vision, when I doubt all of the audience would see through the royal court shenanigans that much better.

 

I never judged him for trusting LF. Apparently he was new in town and unaware of LF's infamy (although LF explicitly told him not to trust him, so there's that...). But he made the incredibly stupid move of telling Cersei his plan. How goddam idiotic can you be? Plus he didn't tell Robert when he was back. What the hell, hero?

 

[lucindabelle]

I think he's hot and kind if like him and Sansa together.

Hangs head in shame.

[Lady S.]

I never judged him for trusting LF. Apparently he was new in town and unaware of LF's infamy (although LF explicitly told him not to trust him, so there's that...). But he made the incredibly stupid move of telling Cersei his plan. How goddam idiotic can you be? Plus he didn't tell Robert when he was back. What the hell, hero?

 

Yeah, all of his decisions after figuring out the truth were pretty bad, so at that point trusting Littlefinger had kinda ceased to be the issue. But maybe that's giving Cersei too much credit and she really did need Littlefinger for something, and couldn't have bought Janos Slynt's loyalty on her own. I think Ned's mistake was less the desire to protect innocent as having no good plan to actually accomplish that. One of his objections to Renly was that he didn't want to disturb Robert's last hours by seizing frightened children from their beds, that was my big wtf moment. It's why I prefer Davos, who never shields the truth from his king, but still manages to use subterfuge to save a kid from his king, and then tells the truth about that to his king. Clearly the superior Baratheon Hand of the King.

 

On topic? One thing I never see mentioned is Littlefinger's role in Ned getting attacked by Jaime, which is a pretty significant game changer. Shit started to hit the fan when Tyrion was captured, but things were still salvageable for the Stark family, because Ned decided to quit and go home and probably would have done so in time if it weren't for Littlefinger. Littlefinger offers to show him the last place Jon Arryn visited before falling ill if Ned sticks around til the evening. This has to be a stalling tactic to prevent Ned from escaping his clutches, because it's not like it's new information, the baby bastard and her mother are in Littlefinger's own brothel. And it's even very useful information, seeing a 2nd Baratheon bastard doesn't turn on any lightbulbs for Ned, and I doubt Littlefinger expected it would. What It does accomplish is getting Ned Stark in the open streets with only three men to guard him, right when the Lannisters have a bone to pick with the Starks. A catnapping bone that Varys knew about so I'm sure Littlefinger did too. Would Jaime have attacked Ned if he was still Hand and in the Red Keep? Doubtful. What about if he was resigned but still inside packing? Still more witnesses than outside Littlefinger's brothel. Littlefinger could have made sure Ned's excursion made it to Jaime's ears, or just made sure that it was no secret and hoped Jaime took the bait, but either way Ned wouldn't have been there at all if it weren't for Littlefinger.

[Fen]

 

I think he's hot and kind if like him and Sansa together.

Hangs head in shame.

 

There's a reasonably sizeable community over on Tumblr who would agree with you :)

 

He's an interesting character.  I feel like he should be more sympathetic - the disappointed romantic and all that - but the stuff he's done with not a twinge of conscience has been so heinous that he dispels any sympathy (for me, anyway).  

 

There's a Steerpike quality to him - but again, I found Steerpike more compelling.

[Conan Troutman]

On topic? One thing I never see mentioned is Littlefinger's role in Ned getting attacked by Jaime, which is a pretty significant game changer. 

I like your theory, it makes sense. I had totally forgotten that connection. Up until this season I thought Ned forced LF to betray him because of his stupid choices, but now that we now that LF also was behind Jon Arryn's death, we can agree that this all was an elaborate ruse and he set him up from the beginning. 

 

So I would think that this was his initial plan: 

 

1. Have your crazy lover kill Jon Arryn. 

2. Robert will almost certainly name Ned as his new Hand.

3. Get Ned to examine the heritage of the Robert's bastards.  

4. Have your crazy lover tell your love interest that she suspects that the Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn. 

5. Send an old and hopefully not very good assassin to kill Bran Stark with Tyrion's knife. 

6. Once Tyrion is executed, set Ned up outside the brothel so Jamie can kill him.

 

But then Jamie decided not to kill Ned this way after that soldier stabbed him in the leg (he said something about a clean kill, IIRC). So whatever his long con was, he had to improvise since then. 

 

Edit: Hm, steps 5 and 6 make no sense. Even if he was indeed behind Brans attempted assassination (although it might've been Cersei or both, I'm not 100% sure about that), he couldn't have known that Bran would fall from that window. So it couldn't have been part of his plan to get Tyrion arrested, so that Jamie would take revenge against Ned. So his original plan would have to be letting Ned find out about Cersei's children and then LF would inform Cersei that Ned knows (he couldn't plan on Ned's stupidity to do that job himself...) so that Cersei would arrange some accident for Ned (she couldn't just openly kill the Hand while Robert was alive, and at that point LF couldn't have known about the hunting "accident"). 

Edited May 26, 2014 by Conan Troutman

[CletusMusashi]

At this point, I'm pretty much assuming that Littlefinger was the one behind the hunting accident. He just hasn't confessed it to Sansa yet, but give him another week and I'm sure he will. He also killed Tywin's wife, gave Hodor aphasia, inserted the stick into Stannis' butt, and made Hot Pie fat.

Edited May 27, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[dr pepper]

And replaced the Mountain with a shapeshifter, turned Loras gay, introduced Cercei to alcohol, convinced Lord Reyne that he could take on the Lannisters, and posed for the rendering of The Stranger at the cathedral.