Littlefinger: Petyr Baelish

[Lady S.]

Yeah, I don't want to sound like too much of a conspiracy theorist, I don't think Littlefinger is an all-powerful genius. He's an ambitious manipulator with no scruples, and a gambler who plays whatever cards he's dealt. (He tells Sansa he'd risk everything to get what he wants, right before answering that what he wants is everything. Which strikes me as pretty contradictory, but whatever.) Thing is, he just killed his one loyal ally, and I think trying to program the daughter of the man he destroyed into his new partner is going to eventually come back to bite him, but he has been very, very lucky so far. His plans for the Lannisters/Starks started with Jon Arryn's incest investigation and murder, the attempts on Bran were just happy coincidences for Littlefinger. As was Tyrion's catnapping, he didn't plan for any of that, but he happily worked these fortunate twists into his plans. He couldn't have predicted Cat actually meeting up with Tyrion and acting on his lie (or Sansa pointing out that Joffrey looked nothing like Robert, for that matter, he must have been counting on Ned to put the pieces together on his own), since he didn't get Cat to seek out Tyrion, Tyrion found her, and that was pure plot contrivance. Tyrion is traveling all the way from the north and Cat is traveling from King's Landing, yet they end up in the riverlands at the same time? Cat must have been taking her sweet ass time to still be that far south when Tyrion got there, like even slower than the Late Lord Frey's kind of slow when the Tullys call the banners. The only person contriving that plot twist was GRRM, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger was just muddying the waters and sowing more suspicions, but he told Ned and Cat it was impossible to accuse the queen's brother without proof so going straight to the king for the king's justice would have gotten them nowhere. So his (and Varys's) object there was to keep too much truth was reaching Robert, as they'd been doing for years, and Littlefinger's added interest was worsening Stark/Lannister by adding more murder accusations, as later happened with Ser Hugh's death.

 

I had the impression Littlefinger had it out for Ned from his lie about the dagger (Tyrion said it wasn't his, and couldn't have been since he'd never bet against Jaime), his big prostitution sexposition scene emphasizing his bitterness for the Starks and mentioning how Ned was just so good, and then his last s1 scene with Varys talking about if he was king the people who'd wronged him wouldn't be bowing, they'd be headless. Not to mention that he and Varys clearly knew about the twincest all along, so why lead Ned through Jon Arryn's investigation if he wanted Ned to sit on that knowledge? And then, as someone mentioned in the ep thread, there's the scene of him hitting on Cat while delivering Ned's bones, (the most irrational thing we've seen him do), which strongly suggests he never much wanted to help Ned, and that Ned's death was exactly what he wanted. Littlefinger's betrayal of Ned is like Roose Bolton's betrayal of Robb, to my mind, in that both were always out for numero uno, so the the real question becomes how much helping the Starks helped numero uno, and in that case, how much of their help was really help.

 

Btw, I feel sure now the show just dropped this hanging plot thread, but if it anyone wants an answer to the dagger mystery,

it was last seen in King Robert's own weapons cache. Catelyn confronts Jaime about the knife to find out which of the Lannisters really sent it, and he denies it was Tyrion's, says Robert was the one who bet against him in the tourney, that if he'd wanted to finish the job on Bran, he'd have done it himself, but anyway he and Cersei knew Bran was watched around the clock by Cat, and if Cersei hired an assassin, she wouldn't have kept it a secret from Jaime. Tyrion and Jaime later separately figure out that Joffrey must have stolen the dagger from Robert's chest, and hired Westeros's worst assassin to kill Bran, because he'd heard Robert say the boy was better off dead, and probably also because Tyrion had slapped him silly for not caring about the Stark family tragedy. This explanation makes sense because no mentally sound adult, even Cersei, should know better than to give such an expensive and recognizable weapon to a two-bit murderer. Unless they were trying to frame someone, but a) the knife never actually belonged to Tyrion, and b) even Cersei knew better than to try to frame Tyrion then because she didn't want the Stark/Lannister war, she wanted Ned to just go home.

Edited May 27, 2014 by Lady S.

[mac123x]

And replaced the Mountain with a shapeshifter, turned Loras gay, introduced Cercei to alcohol, convinced Lord Reyne that he could take on the Lannisters, and posed for the rendering of The Stranger at the cathedral.

 

Heh.

 

I don't think he had anything to do with the knife-wielding goon because of the timing.  When Bran fell, Littlefinger was still in Kings Landing.  He would have needed to hear about it and send an assassin (not something you'd arrange via post-raven).  Granted, the royal party farted around in Winterfell for a while before taking off, but it still seems logistically unlikely.

 

I heard someone (Nostalgia Chick, I think) compare Varys and Littlefinger to Batman and the Joker.  Varys is working for the realm (Order) while Littlefinger just likes to stir things up to see what happens and how he can benefit (Chaos).

[Constantinople]

I'm not convinced Littlefinger had it out for Ned from the start, in the sense that he wanted Ned dead, though I'm not saying he didn't either.

 

If Littlefinger weds Lysa, he becomes the acting Lord of the Vale since Robin is underage.  If Littlefinger weds Catelyn, he becomes the second husband of the Lord of Winterfell's mother, since no one thought Robb was too young to rule in his own right.  I don't think Littlefinger "loves" Catelyn so much, he'd be willing to sacrifice being acting lord of one of the Seven Kingdoms, particularly since it may be possible to extend that indefinitely on the grounds of Robin's mental state.

It also seems easier for Littlefinger to manipulate Lysa, than Catelyn in that he doesn't always need to resort to lies to manipulate Lysa, and he can talk her out of it when she catches him in a lie.

 

Had Ned agreed to support Joffrey, as Littlefinger urged, I'm not sure Littlefinger would have tried to kill Ned.  Littelfinger said his price would be modest.  I imagine it was Lysa's hand in marriage, with perhaps more power/responsibilities in King's Landing.  Plus, Littlefinger would still get a "victory" of sorts since Ned would have tainted his precious honor.  Perhaps in the longer run, LF would scheme to replace Ned as Hand.

 

But since Ned wasn't willing to support Joffrey, and Littlefinger wasn't going down with that ship.  Particularly since Littlefinger appears to really, really, really not want Stannis on the Iron Throne.  Not sure if it's due to prior history between LF & Stannis, or if LF knows he'd be pushed out of power, if not executed, by Stannis.

[Lady S.]

Had Ned agreed to support Joffrey, as Littlefinger urged, I'm not sure Littlefinger would have tried to kill Ned.  Littelfinger said his price would be modest.  I imagine it was Lysa's hand in marriage, with perhaps more power/responsibilities in King's Landing.  Plus, Littlefinger would still get a "victory" of sorts since Ned would have tainted his precious honor.  Perhaps in the longer run, LF would scheme to replace Ned as Hand.

 

But since Ned wasn't willing to support Joffrey, and Littlefinger wasn't going down with that ship.  Particularly since Littlefinger appears to really, really, really not want Stannis on the Iron Throne.  Not sure if it's due to prior history between LF & Stannis, or if LF knows he'd be pushed out of power, if not executed, by Stannis.

I take him telling Ned not to support Stannis in the same vein as telling Ned it was wise to distrust him and just being a general creep, so he could have his "what did you expect? I didn't hide my true nature that much" moment in the throne room, because Littlefinger likes feeling superior and reminding people he's more clever than they are. I don't think he really expected Ned to heed his "wisdom", when Ned hadn't already when it came to distrusting everyone or not stepping on the lions' tail in regard to the riverlands. His plan for Ned to support Joff involved Ned staying on as the appointed regent, and I believe Renly was right that Cersei would never agree to that, especially not after Ned confronted her about the twincest. Let him stay on as Hand, maybe, just maybe, but she wanted the regency for herself. I bet that even without Littlefinger to help her coup, Cersei would tear up Robert's will and tell Ned to bend the knee and get out. Furthermore, even a man without the rigid Stark honor would have rejected Littlefinger's plan. Ned's foster father was poisoned, his son was crippled, then almost murdered a second time, three of his best men were dead thanks to Jaime, Cersei had killed Robert (and Littlefinger also advocates letting the Lannisters do away with Stannis too so Renly would be the heir when Joff proved too difficult), Tywin had sent Gregor to ravage the riverlands and now Jaime was getting ready to invade the riverlands as well. The only one of them to pay for any of it was Tyrion, but Tywin's retaliation was at least 10x worse. No Lannister would suffer so many insults, and I doubt any other self-respecting powerful nobleman would either. Only someone as selfish as Littlefinger would overlook all of that, important nobles have duties to their families and their vassals. What does Ned tell his in-laws, Hoster and Edmure, at war with the Lannisters already? "Sorry Cat dragged you into this, but our daughter's still going to be queen someday. That should comfort your bannermen who lost their lands, livestock, holdfasts, peasants, and knights/sons, right?" Because that's all the Starks would get in this peace deal, Sansa as Joff's consort and Ned as his regent, the two things Robert had already promised him. The Lannisters would offer nothing in return to get the Starks on their side and keep on doing whatever the hell they wanted. (In contrast, if Ned had gone to the Wall, I imagine any peace deal with Robb would have to at least involve the end of Sansa's betrothal and the retreat of all Lannister forces from the riverlands, probably along with other things he demanded in s2 like the delivery of Ned's greatsword and return of the remains of Ned's fallen household for proper burial. As well as some kind of oath about however many years of peace, to prevent the Lannisters causing any more trouble for the Starks or Tullys.)

 

If Littlefinger really wanted Ned to take this unfair deal, then all of his scheming and manipulating was done just to get Cersei to kill Robert. Which could well have have been one of his goals (but if it was, a dead Robert creating a Baratheon succession crisis opens up even more benefits to Littlefinger the chaos demon), but being delusional and idiotic enough to try to be Mr. Catelyn Tully before going after the lower hanging, but more politically valuable fruit that was Lysa, indicates the personal has a greater pull on him than the purely political. Wanting to marry Catelyn after his prospective (unwilling) stepson was not just Ned's heir but a king with an army who'd want nothing to do with Littlefinger, did not have any political benefit at all that I can see. If by some chance, Ned had agreed to support Joff, and Cersei had agreed to Ned being regent, I think it's very, very likely Littlefinger would have still tried to get rid of him some day. I just have a hard time believing Littlefinger would want peace after his lies about Jon Arryn's murder and later, the dagger were such a great help to starting war, a war which caused enough chaos to earn him a title and honors to make him more than just lord of a few rocks on the Fingers, even before he married Lysa. I think chaos with Joffrey on the throne but at war, Ned dead, and both his 1st choice and backup Tully sisters single would always be preferable to peace with Ned ruling and a Baelish marriage to Lysa, and just Lysa, with Sansa remaining Joffrey's plaything, and Catelyn still happily married to a Stark of Winterfell, a happy marriage which Littlefinger had already expressed his bitterness about to Ros. Bitterness expressed in a big monologue just a few scenes prior to Ned revealing his plans to Littlefinger, which is why I think that scene was meant to reveal Littlefinger's motivations. He spent years in King's Landing with Lysa, likely carrying on their affair, yet he still claims to be "saving himself" for the woman he's been delusionally obsessed with for most of his life, that feels pretty significant to me.

 

As for why he didn't want Stannis on the throne, yes, head, spike, wall. (Which would also be Varys's problem, even without knowing Stan had taken up with a sorceress.) I think all signs point to Baelish being as sincere as he gets when offering to open the gates for Renly in s2. Something I only noticed during my last re-watch in the marathon before s4, (Thanks for the free weekend, HBO! But I'm just gonna keep pirating the rest of the eps.) was that Renly never says no to that, the scene just ends with looking silently at Littlefinger. Given recent happenings with the Tyrells, maybe a Renly/Littlefinger alliance would have happened despite Renly's dislike for him, after all no one but Lysa, and at one time, Cat, actually liked Littlefinger, but that didn't stop people from working with him. But, like Cersei, he knew better than to try to deal with Stannis, especially since he and Varys had never been all that loyal in their service to the Baratheon dynasty.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Lady S.

[fantique]

His tagline should be:  Trust Me, if you Dare.

I've been amazed that fans apparently don't zero in on that fact that the show dresses Littlefinger as a pervy Catholic priest. 

Setting aside the offense this characterization may (probably does) cause to devout Catholics, from a cinematic perspective, its brilliant characterization.  He only has to ooze into a scene to make your primal instincts perk up and grow wary--something wrong here, something...dangerous.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v651/joliefaire/littlefinger.jpg

 

 

I agree.

If Petyr had grown up with the Lannisters, Cersei would have been his one "true love". If he'd grown up with the Starks, it would have been Lyanna.

 

If Littlefinger really wanted Ned to take this unfair deal, then all of his scheming and manipulating was done just to get Cersei to kill Robert. Which could well have have been one of his goals, but being delusional and idiotic enough to try to be Mr. Catelyn Tully before going after the lower hanging, but more politically valuable fruit that was Lysa, indicates the personal has a greater pull on him than the purely political.

 

I think all signs point to Baelish being as sincere as he gets when offering to open the gates for Renly in s2.

 

Yeah I think LF is a bit delusional when it comes to what he feels is he is due (La La Land marriage with Catelyn, Everything with a capital E). But then again I tend to feel any politician has got to be slightly self-important because to occupy those roles, they have to believe their way is the best way and imagining ruling over countries is (for most people) quite the reach. I do think he loves the idea of Cat (or really what he imagined his life as her husband would have been) and not her for all she was. But I am sure we are all guilty of that at some point in our lives (tween crushes anyone?), the problem is he held on for like forever.

 

As for his grand master plan (and we are still not aware of all the details or when he layed down all the tracks), I do think he is quite clever. And the overshare recipients are always people who can't really hurt him with that info. Varys knows he is a snake and they both work in the shadow, it's not exactly news. Also, saying 'You shouldn't trust to Ned' is smart because to honest and straightforward people like Ned, it comes off as someone who, while they are not noble, at least is upfront about it. Therefore info coming from LF is trustworthy and true. And now Ned is dead, Catelyn after rejecting him is dead .Ros is dead. Lysa is dead. The only person he has exposed more of himself to now (aside from Varys) is Sansa. And he is clearly selectively opening up here. He says those things to people because then they feel like they know it all and they are not as careful as they should be. I am definitely not discounting his luck though. 

 

I also love Aidan Gillen's portrayal. The accent doesn't bother me, I am a non-native speaker, my accent literally changes depending on what I watch on tv. So it takes me a while to realise inconsistensies and I am distracted by the content of his words + his acting. He is very in control of his physical communication which is not just important for the intrigue onscreen but it helps with how we are affected by a scene. He is very effective at being super creepy in a way that makes me want to scream at Sansa 'Run!'.

In his scenes in Sansa it also helps me see how she is developing and learning to play the Game of Thrones. Her responses change and even the way he allows himself to interact with her show that he recognises her innocence slowly slipping away. His hook with  killing Joffrey was revenge for Cat. He could have looked cajoling or grief-stricken but he looked menacing, harsh and calculatin while before he would've played the friendly uncle card. And she responded with a very un-Sansa like smile.

[CletusMusashi]

Hey, I was sweeping up my apartment, and all of a sudden out of the blue it hit me.

The reason why he sometimes uses that Batman voice?

He's getting ready to fight crime with Robin.

[Conan Troutman]

He's got the cape. Six seasons and a movie? Possibly.

 

Nontheless, there's only one bisexual character I care about. And I doubt he's calling for a round robin (may Danaerys flay me for that pun).

[Constantinople]

If Littlefinger really wanted Ned to take this unfair deal, then all of his scheming and manipulating was done just to get Cersei to kill Robert. Which could well have have been one of his goals (but if it was, a dead Robert creating a Baratheon succession crisis opens up even more benefits to Littlefinger the chaos demon), but being delusional and idiotic enough to try to be Mr. Catelyn Tully before going after the lower hanging, but more politically valuable fruit that was Lysa, indicates the personal has a greater pull on him than the purely political. Wanting to marry Catelyn after his prospective (unwilling) stepson was not just Ned's heir but a king with an army who'd want nothing to do with Littlefinger, did not have any political benefit at all that I can see.

Which is why I don't think Littlefinger was being truly honest when he was trying to woo Catelyn. I don't think he really believed Catelyn would take him up on his offer, so I think he was just trying to convince her, and possibly himself, that he wasn't so bad. I just can't believe he would give up being Lord of the Vale to be Mr. Catelyn Tully.

I also found the order in what he spoke interesting, first starting off with something that would get shot down, then proceeding to matters where there was little disagreement (Catelyn's desire to exchange her daughters for Jaime) to none (the return of Ned's bones).

Of course people will differ about whether Littlefinger was being sincere in telling Cat that Ned's death gave them a second chance. Some would say he genuinely wanted to marry Catelyn, even though it was to his great political disadvantage. Others would say that the political cost of such a marriage would be so high -- giving-up the Vale, becoming step-father to a traitor -- that it's evidence that a self-serving schemer like Littlefinger could never make such an offer sincerely.

I'm in the latter camp.

[Lady S.]

He didn't believe Cat would take him on his offer, but he believed honest Ned would suddenly forget his honor, agree to have Stannis killed and become the power behind the throne? I find both scenarios pretty unbelievable, but I think Littlefinger's irrationality when it comes to Catelyn (and now his Catelyn replacement) is much more likely to be perfectly sincere. (Like how Tywin is a self-serving political opportunist, except for his irrationality regarding his most useful child.) Littlefinger tells Sansa that in a different world he could be her father, which again ignores the reality of his situation with Cat, in that he was never her choice of husband to begin with, so it wasn't just a matter of strength and duty. If Littlefinger didn't really expect to become Mr. Catelyn when delivering Ned's bones, he was okay with it because he'd already met Sansa, his new and improved teenage Cat, not just because Lysa was what he wanted all along. All indications are to the contrary, Lysa had been his consolation prize since Riverrun, but he didn't appear to get much consolation from pretending to love the one he was with. When he does decide to marry Lysa and take over the Vale, he planned to take Sansa with him from the first. But you're saying he had Lysa send Cat a letter accusing the Lannisters, luring Ned into a wild goose chase, just so Ned would allow him to marry Lysa? Assuming Ned would be more generous with his blessing than Robert? A blessing he predictably got from the Lannisters anyway, after receiving a more impressive title than Lord of the Fingers? I don't see how wanting Lysa and peace points to a more self-serving and better schemer. Did he only realize chaos is a ladda after Ned died and the chaos increased to his benefit?

 

Littlefinger's always been something of a cartoonish villain, and while his proposal to Cat (which was by far his dumbest move) can be written off, that still leaves a lot of moments of irrationality and political risk to account for. God, I've made way too many rambling replies about a character I am entertained by, but frankly loathe and hope comes to an unpleasant end by, say, season six.

[Hecate7]

So I would think that this was his initial plan: 

 

1. Have your crazy lover kill Jon Arryn. 

2. Robert will almost certainly name Ned as his new Hand.

3. Get Ned to examine the heritage of the Robert's bastards.  

4. Have your crazy lover tell your love interest that she suspects that the Lannisters poisoned Jon Arryn. 

5. Send an old and hopefully not very good assassin to kill Bran Stark with Tyrion's knife. 

6. Once Tyrion is executed, set Ned up outside the brothel so Jamie can kill him.

 

But then Jamie decided not to kill Ned this way after that soldier stabbed him in the leg (he said something about a clean kill, IIRC). So whatever his long con was, he had to improvise since then. 

 

Edit: Hm, steps 5 and 6 make no sense. Even if he was indeed behind Brans attempted assassination (although it might've been Cersei or both, I'm not 100% sure about that), he couldn't have known that Bran would fall from that window.

He might not have known Bran would see Cersei with Jaime, but once Bran was paralyzed he found out about it, and 5 & 6 belong to Part II of the plan. The plan was originally just about getting Ned killed and Catelyn available, but it would also have involved maneuvering all of her male children out of the way so Baelish wouldn't have to surrender Winterfell to any of them when they came of age.

 

He probably WAS corresponding with Joffrey and advised about the assassin with the dagger. He knew about it later from Cat, anyway, when she asked him about the dagger. When he sent her away, he knew her next move probably would be to arrest Tyrion, which would start a war. Remember too that Littlefinger works for Tywin Lannister, and therefore would be giving Tywin the information that would lead to Littlefinger's preferred outcomes, as opposed to simply giving him the truth.

 

The complete and utter destruction of House Tully and House Stark was always part of his plan, as is getting the Iron Throne. I think Littlefinger is trying to get as many of the Seven Kingdoms as he can. Get all seven and the Iron Throne is yours by default. Get at least five and taking the Iron Throne is easy. He's got the Vale, he'll have the North soon enough, and getting Riverrun will be child's play.

[Lady S.]

I think you're going too far, he definitely could not have known Cat would arrest Tyrion, because she did not set out to do so, what he actually advised Ned and Cat to do with his accusation was absolutely nothing. And he may have well have encouraged Joff to execute Ned, but that doesn't mean they were pen pals when Joffers was up North. I don't think he was a pen pal of Tywin back then either, there would have been plenty of riders going to Casterly Rock after Tyrion's arrest. The Lannisters were unknowing pawns of Littlefinger's, but they did make some moves on their own, like Jaime and Cersei's fucking.

[Jean]

I think his "ingenuity" is based on the fact that no matter what happens as a result of his actions, he can work with it. He can't lose, yet. I don't think he planned out everything to the last detail and was able to predict exactly everything the way it happened. He said it best, "chaos is ladder." His unique ability is being able to thrive in it.

I'm also starting to think his end goal isn't power after all, it's just the satisfaction he gets from playing the game. He likes outsmarting others just for the sake of knowing that he outsmarted them. I don't think he wants power for power's sake. I think he wants it to prove that he can get it and also wrest it away from someone else.

I'm not sure what his goal with Sansa is. He wants her, but the interesting part is that he genuinely wants to teach her the game. If all he wanted was to get Sansa, the easiest way would be to keep her like the old helpless Sansa. If he only saw her as a substitute Cat, why is trying to mold her into something un-Cat like?

[CletusMusashi]

"Chaotic Evil" does not mean "Uninterested in Social Rewards."

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0042.html

Edited June 11, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[Hecate7]

I think you're going too far, he definitely could not have known Cat would arrest Tyrion, because she did not set out to do so, what he actually advised Ned and Cat to do with his accusation was absolutely nothing.

 

They were both extremely predictable people. Littlefinger is a highly manipulative person, which means he rarely actually tells people what he wants them to do. He instead says the completely unrelated things that he knows will propel them in that general direction. He knew exactly what Cat would do if he said he lost the dagger to Tyrion Lannister. (In fact he lost it to someone else, someone with no problem betting against Jaime Lannister).

 

Look at the structure of Joffrey's murder, to understand how Baelish works. Sometimes it's a conspiracy, as Joffrey's murder definitely was. Sometimes the participants are aware and willing, like Lady Olenna, and sometimes they are unwitting dupes, like Sansa and Dontos. He maneuvers people into the positions he wants them in. Nobody said to Sansa, "you must wear this necklace to Joffrey's wedding." That would have been weird, and she might not have worn it. What he did instead, was give Sansa a story that played upon her emotions in such a way as to make it pretty certain she would wear the necklace.

 

I think Littlefinger is a mentalist, like Darren Brown or the fictional Patrick Jane. He is able to plant a suggestion in such a way that a person will act on it. He knows how to manipulate people into doing things like killing their husbands, hiring assassins, executing someone they would be better off sparing. He's got spies everywhere, and he's constantly collecting information on everyone, in addition to being able to deduce what's going on anyway. He's a Moriarty figure--smart enough to be Holmes but lacking any basic human goodness.

 

I don't think it's possible to overestimate his ability to manipulate people and events. That's his biggest talent. Apparently he's also good in bed, though it's hard to imagine that given his attitude about everyone and everything.

 

Marrying Lysa was plan B. He meant to marry Cat, but when that didn't work out he turned against Cat with a vengeance.

 

There is no problem with sending secret letters through the mail when you're not worried about anyone intercepting them. A raven from the guilty part to Littlefinger wouldn't take long and wouldn't have to spell out the situation completely, and the response wouldn't have to be too explicit, either. The guilty party might have sent a raven saying, "I hate Tyrion. Bran fell out a window and was paralyzed...what should I do?" It would take a day or less, to get the response back, which could be a very simple answer, not at all incriminating, like, "sorry to hear about the boy. Efficacious remedies exist in your family storehouse, and I hear there are many willing nurses among the locals who will work very cheaply."

 

It would make sense to the parties involved, yet even if it were intercepted by Cat or Ned or Maester Aemon, nobody would know what the intent behind it was. The Starks at the time were very literal-minded and wouldn't recognize the euphemisms. They've all heard enough of that kind of language to recognize it now, but back then they wouldn't have suspected a thing. Of course they'd never get their hands on the notes anyway--the ravens flew fast and the notes were doubtless burned.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Hecate7

[CletusMusashi]

I also don't think it's possible to overestimate his ability to manipulate people and events.

He's a Villain Sue, who can and will get away with whatever is needed to connect two plot points.

Real villains, like Tywin, actually have to work at their schemes. We see the plan, the execution, and the victory, and it is often quite impressive. Not proud to admit this, but I'm even including Ramsay as a real villain, compared to Littlefinger.

Lots of people have tried crazy long-shot political moves. Lots of them have died for it. Statistically speaking, somebody has to be the last-living bullshit peddler. That doesn't make them awesome. It just means their luck hasn't run out yet.

His humungulious convoluted plan thus far has led to:

a. Catelyn being dead, 

b. his new adopted son being uncomfortably interested in Uncle Daddy's nipples, and

c. having his life depend largely on the good will of a girl who is about to subject him to some kind of Suzanne Collins cosplay. 

That last part is going to be especially confusing for him because Westeros only has Betamax players.

Edited June 11, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[Lady S.]

They were both extremely predictable people. Littlefinger is a highly manipulative person, which means he rarely actually tells people what he wants them to do. He instead says the completely unrelated things that he knows will propel them in that general direction. He knew exactly what Cat would do if he said he lost the dagger to Tyrion Lannister. (In fact he lost it to someone else, someone with no problem betting against Jaime Lannister).

How could he know that when Cat didn't?

 

Why would Joffrey need instructions to try to kill Bran?

 

 

I'm not sure what his goal with Sansa is. He wants her, but the interesting part is that he genuinely wants to teach her the game. If all he wanted was to get Sansa, the easiest way would be to keep her like the old helpless Sansa. If he only saw her as a substitute Cat, why is trying to mold her into something un-Cat like?

 

Someone unCat-like would be more willing to love and appreciate him, since the real Cat didn't. I think the key is that he wants Sansa to want him back, look at his face when she ends the kiss, he doesn't want to force himself on her completely against her will, and he doesn't want a naive young thing who can never really understand him. He gave up on trying to woo through traditional romance after the duel, and part of his doing things a new way is trying to mold Sansa into the perfect partner for who he really is, not for who teenage Petyr thought he should be. In a way he's been breaking down her fairy tale world the entire time he's known her, telling her the lovely tale of Clegane brotherly love, telling her she can't lie well enough, and that she'd never be safe from Joffrey because he'd still want to abuse her even if they weren't betrothed, it's just that it's only recently that he's really started to corrupt her by murdering people in front of her and telling her about his assassination of Joffrey, making her complicit in covering up these things and making her play the game with him.

[Hecate7]

 

How could he know that when Cat didn't?

From knowing her. From having grown up with her and observed the way she normally makes choices. Littlefinger knows Cat, Ned, and Lysa a great deal better than they know themselves. He knows their values and their habits, their blind spots, and from that it is easy to guess what they will or won't do.

 

Cat is ferociously protective of her children, and she was on the trail of whoever owned that dagger. Littlefinger casually planted the idea in her mind that Tyrion was responsible. He knew she was already terrified of the Lannisters because of the letter from Lysa which he had more or less composed, and so he knew she would NOT do the right thing and bring the dagger straight to Robert Baratheon, trusting in the actual legal system. He quietly scared her out of the sensible courses of action available to her, insuring that she would go out and do a crazy, self-destructive thing guaranteed to bring the wrath of the Lannisters down on her house. The best part of his plot is that he targeted the one Lannister who could have helped the Starks figure things out, taking the know-it-all out of the equation.

 

Littlefinger is aware that Tyrion is a rival. Tyrion, himself a genius, is probably not quite as intelligent as Littlefinger or Varys, both of whom have had to live by their wits and struggle up through the ranks on their own. Nevertheless Tyrion is a big threat to Littlefinger, and would expose him if he ever knew about half the things Littlefinger has done. It is sad that it never occurred to Tyrion to cultivate a spy network on the scale of Varys or Littlefinger.

 

He knew how badly Cat wanted a culprit, someone to take her anger out on, a way to feel that she was taking action on behalf of her child. He probably even knew through spies that Tyrion was wending his way back to King's Landing and that there was every chance of Cat and Tyrion crossing paths. Cat might not have consciously planned to arrest Tyrion, but it was like forcing a card in a card trick, actually. From the time Littlefinger told her whose dagger it was, there was very little chance of Cat not arresting Tyrion, or at least having Ned do so when Tyrion returned to the castle. That's just the kind of person she is. If she'd missed Tyrion along the way home, she would still manage to get a raven to Ned telling him to arrest Tyrion, and he'd have done it.

 

Unfortunately for the Starks, without presenting their evidence directly to the King, it just looked as if they were out to get the Lannisters out of sheer spite, and instead of helping them, Robert just said, "Quit fighting, both of you. Knock it off. Now I'm going hunting."

 

Un-Cat is undead. She is not in the mood to love or appreciate anyone. The only interruption to her internal monologue of "kill them Freys. Kill them Lannisters," is when she briefly thinks, "kill this other person, too. Kill Pod. Kill Brienne. Kill whoever that guy over there is." I think it would be sad if Brienne did return the girls to Cat, because Cat wouldn't know what to do with them besides hang Sansa. Un-Cat doesn't figure in Littlefinger's plans. I don't think he knew about resurrection when he set the wheels in motion. He planned for Cat to end up dead, but I don't think he planned to make love to her corpse.

 

.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Hecate7

[Skeeter22]

Cat had no intention of arresting Tyrion. When he walked into the inn, she tried to hide herself. She didn't want him to ever know they had crossed paths. It was completely random that they met at the inn in the first place. Littlefinger could not have planned or even anticipated it. Nor could he have been behind Bran's attempted murder. He took advantage of the circumstances after the fact, but he didn't plot everything.

[Lady S.]

Cat had no intention of arresting Tyrion. When he walked into the inn, she tried to hide herself. She didn't want him to ever know they had crossed paths. It was completely random that they met at the inn in the first place. Littlefinger could not have planned or even anticipated it. Nor could he have been behind Bran's attempted murder. He took advantage of the circumstances after the fact, but he didn't plot everything.

Good to know someone else remembers that. I could provide book quotes of her thought process, but this isn't w.org, isn't a Cat thread, and I don't feel like getting into the whole thing.

[CletusMusashi]

Littlefinger's to-do list for this episode:

1. Send raven to Essos. Offer candy to toddler if she throws rocks at dragon.

2. Make speech about it.

3. Steal horses from Brienne and Podrick, forcing them to wander around and encouter Hound.

4. Hire wetnurse.

5.Send raven to show-writers. Remind them that everybody wants Bran to have more screen time.

6. Make chili for Tywin

7. Provide helium balloons to get Stannis' troops in place quickly enough to make deal with army of cannibals.

8. Write letters about there being two new openings on the small council. Send them to Walder and Ramsay.

9. Talk about how hot you still are for Sansa's dead mother. Chicks dig that.

10. Send raven to Qyburn. Ask about reanimating Joffrey.

Edited June 16, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[roamyn]

I think he's hot and kind if like him and Sansa together.

Hangs head in shame.

Lucinda, I just started watching the series (S1, episode 7), and I think he is, too. He's a little shit, but he's built like the guys I'm attracted to.

[Hecate7]

I'm not convinced Littlefinger had it out for Ned from the start, in the sense that he wanted Ned dead, though I'm not saying he didn't either.

 

If Littlefinger weds Lysa, he becomes the acting Lord of the Vale since Robin is underage.  If Littlefinger weds Catelyn, he becomes the second husband of the Lord of Winterfell's mother, since no one thought Robb was too young to rule in his own right.  I don't think Littlefinger "loves" Catelyn so much, he'd be willing to sacrifice being acting lord of one of the Seven Kingdoms, particularly since it may be possible to extend that indefinitely on the grounds of Robin's mental state.

It also seems easier for Littlefinger to manipulate Lysa, than Catelyn in that he doesn't always need to resort to lies to manipulate Lysa, and he can talk her out of it when she catches him in a lie.

 

I think he did want Ned dead, and that if Cat had said yes over Ned's corpse, he'd have married Cat, but presented it to Lysa as part of a long plan to marry her and rule everything with her. He'd have talked her into sending troops for Robb, and Robb would have won the war, but he'd have died a hero's death near the end in such a way that no one would ever suspect Littlefinger's involvement. Joffrey would have died much sooner. He'd have arranged an accident for Sweetrobin and any other twig on the Arryn family tree, and sweet-talked Lysa into naming her nephews as her heirs, bumped Lysa off, and then ruled as regent with Catelyn. He would have slowly eliminated all of the Stark boys before they could come of age and rule either kingdom, but he'd have picked them off in such careful ways, so thoroughly disguised as accidents or illnesses, that Catelyn wouldn't have suspected a thing. He'd have let her die of natural causes unless she caught him, and ruled Harrenhal, the Vale, AND Winterfell by then. I'm sure he'd also be moving pieces into place elsewhere.

 

Marrying Lysa was plan B, but every plan he had involved Ned dying, because Ned had what he wanted: Cat. Ned represented the unfairness of life and Littlefinger wanted to kill him even more than he wants to rule the Seven Kingdoms.

[Oscirus]

Littlefinger is aware that Tyrion is a rival. Tyrion, himself a genius, is probably not quite as intelligent as Littlefinger or Varys, both of whom have had to live by their wits and struggle up through the ranks on their own. Nevertheless Tyrion is a big threat to Littlefinger,

 

At that point, Tyrion was in no way a rival to anybody.  Until he proved himself as Hand of the King, everybody just saw him as a drunken whore-mongering screw-up

 

Yeah, I'm not a big Ned fan, but I really think people get overboard in judging the Starks with hindsight vision, when I doubt all of the audience would see through the royal court shenanigans that much better. Littlefinger actually does his best to get the Starks to trust him, playing on his friendship with Cat and handing Ned "clues" for his investigation.

 

When a man tells you  that he wants to bang your wife at your first meeting that should be a dead giveaway not to trust him.  



 

 

Marrying Lysa was plan B, but every plan he had involved Ned dying, because Ned had what he wanted: Cat. Ned represented the unfairness of life and Littlefinger wanted to kill him even more than he wants to rule the Seven Kingdoms.

 

Little finger wants the iron throne more then  anything else.  If keeping Ned alive would've helped him then he would've made sure that Ned lived.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Oscirus

[Lady S.]

Little finger wants the iron throne more then  anything else.  If keeping Ned alive would've helped him then he would've made sure that Ned lived.

Which is another way of saying he was better off with Ned dead, since a live Ned does nothing to get him close to the throne and would in fact likely only be a hindrance. 

[Danny Franks]

I'm watching season 4 on bluray, and I just started episode 3. The scene with Baelish and Sansa on the ship at the beginning? Good fucking Christ but Gillen sucks in this role. He is so laughably sinister and obviously evil and scheming, he might as well actually just twirl his moustache every time he speaks. It really is like watching some amateur dramatic portrayal of Iago. How this guy was the best person they auditioned for the role, I will never, ever know.

 

I may have to start skipping his scenes, because he completely destroys my suspension of disbelief every time he opens his mouth.

[BlackberryJam]

I'm watching season 4 on bluray, and I just started episode 3. The scene with Baelish and Sansa on the ship at the beginning? Good fucking Christ but Gillen sucks in this role. He is so laughably sinister and obviously evil and scheming, he might as well actually just twirl his moustache every time he speaks. It really is like watching some amateur dramatic portrayal of Iago. How this guy was the best person they auditioned for the role, I will never, ever know.

 

I may have to start skipping his scenes, because he completely destroys my suspension of disbelief every time he opens his mouth.

Not to mention his everchanging accent. UGH.

I am no fan of Emilia Clarke's acting, but she looks like Katherine Hepburn in comparision.

[Advance35]

I actually like AG's portrayal or maybe it's just that I like the character of Littlefinger so much.   I don't think he's SUPPOSED to come across as honest.   I think he's supposed to radiate bad news and ambition, I just think the high born that deal with him Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey, Renly, Ned, Catelyn, Lysa, Lady Olenna and Tyrion are suppose to be so confident in their own superiority, that they mistakenly feel they have know reason to fear or concern themselves with LF's burning ambition because no matter what he does for the realm, he will never be one of "them".   

 

Tyrion doesn't trust LF but I don't think  he considers him a REAL threat.  In the Capital, the only one that monitors LF like the nitroglyceren he is, is Varys.   One can assume that LF and Lady Olenna had schemed up Joffrey's demise while he was brokering the alliance between House Lannister and House Tyrell at the end of Season 2.  She knew he was a conniver but her inherent superiority (in this society as Varys said it's the LAST name that matters) let her think she would be able to outfox LF should it prove necessary.

 

I think LF is very good at playing possum.  He'll wait for others to make a move before making his own and adjusting accordingly should it prove necessary.    He's not infallible, he had NO idea that Olenna upon arriving at the Capital would than begin her own scheme to manuever House Tyrell into having a claim on the North by marrying Sansa into the family.  He was charged with finding dirt on the Tyrells and his honeytrap managed to get the details out of Loras.

 

He's well positioned for now.  House Stark has been destroyed, so has House Tully.   House Lannister's gold is depleted, King Joffrey was murdered, Tywin's dead, Tyrion is a fugitive for reigicide and Kinslaying.   Varys has fled the Capital.   Littlefinger finally acquired Sansa and is now defacto head of a "Great House" that hasn't spent or wasted resources in the War of the 5 Kings.  Not Bad.

[Constantinople]

I'm watching season 4 on bluray, and I just started episode 3. The scene with Baelish and Sansa on the ship at the beginning? Good fucking Christ but Gillen sucks in this role. He is so laughably sinister and obviously evil and scheming, he might as well actually just twirl his moustache every time he speaks. It really is like watching some amateur dramatic portrayal of Iago. How this guy was the best person they auditioned for the role, I will never, ever know.

 

I may have to start skipping his scenes, because he completely destroys my suspension of disbelief every time he opens his mouth.

Based on his performance as Carcetti in The Wire, I'd say AG is doing what D&D want him to do.

[SeanC]

I'm watching season 4 on bluray, and I just started episode 3. The scene with Baelish and Sansa on the ship at the beginning? Good fucking Christ but Gillen sucks in this role. He is so laughably sinister and obviously evil and scheming, he might as well actually just twirl his moustache every time he speaks. It really is like watching some amateur dramatic portrayal of Iago. How this guy was the best person they auditioned for the role, I will never, ever know.

 

I may have to start skipping his scenes, because he completely destroys my suspension of disbelief every time he opens his mouth.

If you listen to Michelle MacLaren's commmentary on episode 4.04, she evidently considers his performance to be subtle.

[Hecate7]

He's not infallible, he had NO idea that Olenna upon arriving at the Capital would than begin her own scheme to manuever House Tyrell into having a claim on the North by marrying Sansa into the family.  He was charged with finding dirt on the Tyrells and his honeytrap managed to get the details out of Loras.

 

He's well positioned for now.  House Stark has been destroyed, so has House Tully.   House Lannister's gold is depleted, King Joffrey was murdered, Tywin's dead, Tyrion is a fugitive for reigicide and Kinslaying.   Varys has fled the Capital.   Littlefinger finally acquired Sansa and is now defacto head of a "Great House" that hasn't spent or wasted resources in the War of the 5 Kings.  Not Bad.

I beg to differ.

 

When he asked Margaery if she wanted to be queen, and she answered, "I want to be THE Queen," that is when the plot to displace Sansa and marry Margaery to Joffrey began. I think you will find that Littlefinger is always in the middle of these things--he was just talking to Margaery before the marriage thing. He had proposed to Catelyn and been rejected, when the plot leading to the Red Wedding began. Those scenes are not there for decoration--they are clues.

 

We, the audience, got to plunge under the surface once with Roz and once with Sansa, and see in detail how Baelish operates. We got a little taste when he asked Margaery if she wanted to be queen, but we were not shown the many little moves he probably made from there. Not up close, anyway. The point of showing us the necklace and the murder of Dontos and the murder of Lysa and the selling of Roz, is that Baelish is doing this sort of thing all the time. And though not infallible,he is moving more pieces and controlling more situations than anyone else on the board, and he has been from the start. He started the war, and it went exactly the way he wanted it to go. No more Ned, no more Joffrey, no more Tyrion. Varys far away. Sansa isolated from her family and completely dependent on him. Catelyn and the others dead, or presumed dead. This stuff didn't just happen. He manipulated people so that it had to happen.

 

 

Tyrion had a line, "Sansa is not a murderer. Yet." If anyone can make her into one, it's Baelish.

[Danny Franks]

If you listen to Michelle MacLaren's commmentary on episode 4.04, she evidently considers his performance to be subtle.

 

That's kind of staggering. Gillen's performances have been less subtle than that scene in season 1 where he had one whore stick her finger up another's arse. He's almost parodic in his villainy, so I struggle to see how he can be doing what the showrunners have specifically asked for, because he's just so much worse than everyone else. I don't know why they're letting him put these performances on film, but I wonder if they're wishing he'd been minor enough early on that they could recast him. The guy just flat out sucks.

 

So I think I'll have to skip his scenes, because in a show of uniformly solid-to-excellent acting, he just presents me with a case of complete cognitive dissonance. I see him acting, and think I'm watching that dreadful Dungeons & Dragons movie from a decade or so ago.

 

And yes, as BlackberryJam points out, his accent changes several times within a scene, never mind wavering slightly throughout a season.

[Advance35]

When he asked Margaery if she wanted to be queen, and she answered, "I want to be THE Queen," that is when the plot to displace Sansa and marry Margaery to Joffrey began. I think you will find that Littlefinger is always in the middle of these things--he was just talking to Margaery before the marriage thing. He had proposed to Catelyn and been rejected, when the plot leading to the Red Wedding began. Those scenes are not there for decoration--they are clues.

 

 

I agree that LF makes it a point to be involved with the movers and shakers of Westerns but again I disagree that he is portrayed or (in actuality) behind EVERYTHING.  I don't think he was involved in the Red Wedding and I've never seen anything that gave me that impression

in the show or the books.

  I think he capitalized on the fall out of the Red Wedding, in that Sansa has NOBODY else in the world with Catelyn and Robb dead but I got the impression it was ALL Tywin and Walder.   LF is a plotter but his real ace is his nose for opportunity.   

 

And I still think one of his main assets is the superiority held by Nobles.   He's a snake in plain sight but because he's beneath them in social status he is frequently underestimated.   Cersei has proven that she see's him as someone to be mocked and bullied on the show

and in the book she doesn't think much of slighting him either.

   Tywin thinks he useful and graspingly ambitious but of no real consequence, someone easily eliminated if he ever gets out of line.   It's only non-nobles that seem to view LF as more than just an opportunistic whore monger.   That being Varys.  

Out of the Nobles, the only on that tends to regard Littlefinger as a genuine threat (moreso in the book) is Tyrion.

Edited February 22, 2015 by SilverStormm
Book talk tagged.

[Hecate7]

I agree that LF makes it a point to be involved with the movers and shakers of Westerns but again I disagree that he is portrayed or (in actuality) behind EVERYTHING.  I don't think he was involved in the Red Wedding and I've never seen anything that gave me that impression

in the show or the books.

  I think he capitalized on the fall out of the Red Wedding, in that Sansa has NOBODY else in the world with Catelyn and Robb dead but I got the impression it was ALL Tywin and Walder.   LF is a plotter but his real ace is his nose for opportunity.   

 

 

This is probably the subtlety in his performance that Michelle Fairley was talking about. Even though he set up the Tyrell-Lannister marriage right in front of us, most of us didn't connect that dot. Even though he's had an entire monologue right to the camera explaining how he's going to destroy houses Arryn, Tully, Stark, and Lannister, and in fact those houses are mostly destroyed, lots of people still don't believe he's the one doing this. Even though he has in fact told us that he was.

 

Think of this. Tywin and Walder can't be everywhere at once. In fact they probably have never even been in the same room together. There had to be a go-between, and it wasn't Varys--Varys was in the palace the whole time. Littlefinger, otoh, not only has mobility and was already turned loose to woo Lysa, but he also has spies. He knows how to use go-betweens like Ser Dontos. He has whores, Septas, minstrels, people he's blackmailing....he has Gold Cloaks and sellswords.

 

Someone had to go to Walder, and tell him what Tywin was prepared to offer, and then go back to Tywin and give him Walder's answer. And that someone was not Tywin, Jaime, Cersei, or Tyrion. It was someone working for the Lannisters--Littlefinger is the only one who fits. Pycelle was locked up, and then he was busy. Varys pulls strings internationally, but I don't think he was involved in the Red Wedding. I'm pretty sure Baelish was. Yes, Tywin was the money behind it, but Tywin doesn't run his own errands, and Baelish was at large.

 

We saw how he killed Jon Arryn, Ned Stark, Roz, Joffrey, Ser Dontos, Lysa Arryn. He is in fact doing most of the stuff, and plotting most of the plots. Most people don't see it, but the fact that Tyrion and Varys both see Littlefinger as very dangerous, possibly the most dangerous person in their lives, or in the world, should tell us something, as should the fact that Cat trusted him and told Ned to trust him, thereby getting Ned killed. And in spite of the fact that this man really did kill both her parents, Sansa is trusting him.

 

There are a few things I don't think he was behind: 1) the flinging of Bran from the tower, 2) Sansa's engagement to Joffrey, 3) Jaime's hand being chopped off. 4) Theon taking Winterfell and being taken in turn by the Boltons, although he may have assumed that things were going to unfold that way and planned accordingly. He also MIGHT not be to blame for Cersei's murder of Robert, or anything happening at the Wall. But if there's a large plot that required a mediator or go-between, you can bet he was involved somewhere, playing a role very similar to the role he played in the deaths of Ned Stark, Joffrey Baratheon, and Jon Arryn. Someone else's hands get dirty, but he was standing behind them the whole time.

[Danny Franks]

This is probably the subtlety in his performance that Michelle Fairley was talking about. Even though he set up the Tyrell-Lannister marriage right in front of us, most of us didn't connect that dot. Even though he's had an entire monologue right to the camera explaining how he's going to destroy houses Arryn, Tully, Stark, and Lannister, and in fact those houses are mostly destroyed, lots of people still don't believe he's the one doing this. Even though he has in fact told us that he was.

 

But unfortunately his incredibly obvious acting choices just end up making any characters who don't immediately conclude he is evil and not to be trusted look like complete imbeciles. When he waltzes through every scene acting like Mr. Burns after coming up with a particularly nefarious plan to swindle Springfield, you can't have characters just act as though he's not obviously, comically evil.

 

In the books, there was a subtlety to him,

and I do remember being surprised when he betrayed Ned. In the show, it was just evidence of Ned being really, really dumb to ever trust him an inch in the first place. It makes the supposedly smart characters like Tyrion and Tywin look even worse for not arranging a gruesome end for him at the earliest opportunity.

 

But he's already veered into ridiculous, 'evil supervillain orchestrated everything' territory anyway. And people say GRRM avoids clichés.

Edited February 22, 2015 by SilverStormm
Book talk tagged

[SeanC]

Someone had to go to Walder, and tell him what Tywin was prepared to offer, and then go back to Tywin and give him Walder's answer.

No, Tywin communicated with Walder by letter, as far as we know.  Raven-mail.

[Advance35]

Someone had to go to Walder, and tell him what Tywin was prepared to offer, and then go back to Tywin and give him Walder's answer. And that someone was not Tywin, Jaime, Cersei, or Tyrion. It was someone working for the Lannisters--Littlefinger is the only one who fits. Pycelle was locked up, and then he was busy. Varys pulls strings internationally, but I don't think he was involved in the Red Wedding. I'm pretty sure Baelish was. Yes, Tywin was the money behind it, but Tywin doesn't run his own errands, and Baelish was at large.

 

 

I disagree.   When that plot was being crafted LF was in Kings Landing, I don't think the Red Wedding was cooked up AFTER Baelish helped thwart the plot to marry Sansa into House Tyrell.  He was jockeying for the chance to leave Kings Landing with Tywin's permission, to secure his influence over Lyssa.    We see from the beginning of Season 3 to his departure of Kings Landing, that Varys and Roz are watching LF VERY closely.    If he had been party to such a plot or sent messages, I feel like Varys would have sussed it out.   

 

I think the only plot he was probably crafting behind the curtain was the assassination of Joffrey with Olenna, all the while Tywin and Walder Frey were crafting Robb's brutal end.

[Hecate7]

I disagree.   When that plot was being crafted LF was in Kings Landing, I don't think the Red Wedding was cooked up AFTER Baelish helped thwart the plot to marry Sansa into House Tyrell.  He was jockeying for the chance to leave Kings Landing with Tywin's permission, to secure his influence over Lyssa.    We see from the beginning of Season 3 to his departure of Kings Landing, that Varys and Roz are watching LF VERY closely.    If he had been party to such a plot or sent messages, I feel like Varys would have sussed it out.   

 

I think the only plot he was probably crafting behind the curtain was the assassination of Joffrey with Olenna, all the while Tywin and Walder Frey were crafting Robb's brutal end.

 

Littlefinger is usually a step or two ahead of Varys. Witness the fact that Varys still has no idea about Baelish's role in Jon Arryn's death, for example.

 

Littlefinger isn't usually the person who delivers the killing blow. He didn't kill Roz, he just delivered her to Joffrey. He didn't kill Jon Arryn, he just convinced Lyssa to poison him. He didn't kill Ned--Cersei and Joffrey did that, but he made sure Ned was delivered up, and made sure the evidence was in Cersei's hands. He didn't kill Joffrey--he just made sure that everyone who did do it was deeply indebted to him for his help. He did kill Lyssa Arryn, but he did it in such a way that Sansa owes him her silence and her gratitude. He killed Dontos, but again, he did it in such a way that Sansa had to say thank you. He didn't kill Cat or Robb, but I'm sure that he helped Tywin persuade Walder to do it.

 

I'm sure there was a Dontos involved in the Red Wedding, and I'm sure he came straight from Baelish. Without a big payment from Tywin Lannister, and a guarantee of protection, Walder Fry would have settled for marrying Roslin to Edmure, and remained the Starks' uneasy, resentful ally. He might still have carried a grudge and quietly poisoned his way through the Tullys, but his men would have fought alongside Robb.

 

Ravens can't carry gold--it's too heavy. Someone had to show up and pay Walder something. And Tywin keeps rewarding Littlefinger. He doesn't reward his own children the way he rewards Littlefinger. A castle here, a title there, an advantageous marriage here...seriously, Tywin owes LF big for something....what is it? Remember LF is in direct competition with Varys and Pycelle, and he has to keep proving he's worth more to Tywin and the crown than the other two. We don't see Tywin loading those other two down with honors and castles. So far, LF has been winning. Every situation has turned out in the way that benefits LF most. That is not just luck. It's not an accident. That is Baelish playing this game better than any other player on the board. He is disposing of his enemies---Stark, Tully, Lannister, Arryn, Baratheon, and of course Varys, Pycelle, and Tyrion, who are his direct competition.

 

But even when he looks right into the camera and TELLS us he's on a mission to destroy all these people, we still don't know that's what he's doing. "I'm going to fuck them," he says, and what he means is that he's going to trick each and every one of them into CHOOSING, freely choosing, the road to ruin. He has spent his entire life on this vendetta, and the story makes the most sense if you understand that he is in the same league as Varys, and so far beating Varys at this game. Of course, here and there Varys might be letting him win, or pretending not to know what Baelish is up to, because letting Baelish do it saves Varys time. I hope that's the case, because otherwise Varys is really royally screwed. I don't think it pays to underestimate Baelish, but everyone does. That's part of how he gets away with it.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

I disagree.   When that plot was being crafted LF was in Kings Landing, I don't think the Red Wedding was cooked up AFTER Baelish helped thwart the plot to marry Sansa into House Tyrell.  He was jockeying for the chance to leave Kings Landing with Tywin's permission, to secure his influence over Lyssa.  

 

This actually points to him being the one to suggest the Red Wedding to Tywin in the first place. Tywin is certainly acquiescing easily to every request LF makes, probably because Baelish helped arrange the Tyrell marriage for Joffrey and helped the Lannisters keep Sansa....but then again he may have been doing even more for the Lannisters. The question, cui bono, continues to lead to Littlefinger.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Hecate7

[Advance35]

Again all of that seems WAY to speculative for me.    I certainly haven't interpreted Tywin's actions the way you have.  

 

The Castle and titles are of no real consequence that's why they were given to LF.   Technically he IS now a Lord but of a Castle that nobody wants and is of no real value.   Everything of momentum and prominence ALWAYS goes to one of the Big 7,  it's just an intrigue free for all as to who gets it.   

[DigitalCount]

Isn't he also Acting Lord of the Vale? That seems like a big deal.

[Luciaphile]

His position is more tenuous than it might appear. He's got Harrenhal which is a pig in the poke. Everything around it seems to have been destroyed and I think him collecting any revenues of any consequence anytime soon seems unlikely. The castle is massive and impossible to maintain. Also, he's nowhere near the Riverlands so who the hell knows what's happening there. Also, he's not Lord Paramount. I don't know if the show is planning on addressing that, but that would not seem to be a plum about to fall into his lap.

 

In theory he's in charge of Robin, but the other lords and that Lady Waynwood seem less than enthralled with him. And if something happens to Robin (who is young and kind of weedy looking), I'm sure they would be acting posthaste to move his nouveau riche pimpmaster ass out of there.

 

To me this is a guy who has very ambitious plans of having "everything," but he doesn't seem to have a defined endgame in mind, nor do I think we have a sense of what exactly he means to do with everything once he gets it--if he gets it. I don't think he has a plan for after either. He's kind of like Cersei in that way. I think he's more proactive than she is, but he seems to be a very reactive player. The other pieces in the game move and he adjusts accordingly and shifts them slightly, but he's not the chessmaster. he thinks he is.

[Hecate7]

Isn't he also Acting Lord of the Vale? That seems like a big deal.

 

Yes, he IS acting Lord of the Vale. Until Robin Arryn comes of age, Littlefinger is Lord Protector. He is the widower of Lyssa Arryn and he is Robin's stepfather. So he's acting Lord of the Vale for another 8 years or so. Long enough to figure things out.

 

Nothing is going to happen to Robin as long as Littlefinger needs him. But the instant Littlefinger figures out how to hold the Vale without Robin, that kid's toast. Littlefinger doesn't seem at all worried, so I am assuming he's got a long con already in place that's going to place him on the Iron Throne.

 

I don't think he's half as reactive as people think. So far he's removed the Lord of the Vale, the Lord of Winterfell, and the entire Tully house for all intents and purposes. He also started the war between the Starks and Lannisters, knowing he'd started a chain reaction that would ultimately clean out both houses and several others, eventually leaving a clear path to the throne for himself. He got made a lord and got a castle. That made him good enough finally to marry a Tully, gaining another title and another castle.

 

He is the Lord Protector of the Vale, traveling with the two heir apparents to the Eyrie and to Winterfell. He's amassing quite a little collection of playing pieces. And let's not forget fake Arya--she's his creature, too. He did that. Probably for a reason that will make sense in a book or two.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Hecate7

[Luciaphile]

I guess what I mean by reactive is that he usually doesn't make any big bold moves. He maneuvers and manipulates other people like game pieces. And since he doesn't control them totally per se, if they do something that might mess up plan a or b, he reacts to it and now he's got plan c and maybe down the road, he can get back to plan a or b. 

 

And he's not omnipotent. It's a medieval world. Robin gets pneumonia or there's an epidemic of smallpox, he could die and then Littlefinger is S.O.L. I don't anticipate that happening, but things like that are not outside the realms of possibility.

[Hecate7]

True. I just think that people underestimate how thoroughly he's thought this through, and how many plots he's got going on. There are probably 4 or 5 we don't even know about yet.

[Luciaphile]

Yeah, that I definitely agree with. 

 

What I still don't get is if he has plans for his "happily ever after." He's that guy who works behind the scenes for promoting himself. Does he want to be king? Maybe not. If not, then it's all for his personal advancement and I could see that. But if he does mean to be king, then I'm not sure what he's planning on doing. Because I can see that being a very short reign.

[Constantinople]

I'm watching season 4 on bluray, and I just started episode 3. The scene with Baelish and Sansa on the ship at the beginning? Good fucking Christ but Gillen sucks in this role. He is so laughably sinister and obviously evil and scheming, he might as well actually just twirl his moustache every time he speaks. It really is like watching some amateur dramatic portrayal of Iago. How this guy was the best person they auditioned for the role, I will never, ever know.

 

I may have to start skipping his scenes, because he completely destroys my suspension of disbelief every time he opens his mouth.

Over the past week I re-read that Sansa chapter and watched the scenes in Episodes 3 & 4 (the scene was in one book chapter, but spilled over into the next episode).

BookBaelish was about as subtle as a freight train in that chapter.

Perhaps my view is biased since I watched Seasons 1-4 before reading the books.

Edited February 28, 2015 by SilverStormm
Tagged book talk.

[Advance35]

Have to check in and admit that this is one of the characters I am most interested in catching up with in Season 6.  

He managed to sleaze his way into influence with the Vale;

Ssecretly allied himself with House Bolton/The North against House Lannister/Iron Throne by betrothing Ramsay and Sansa;

Leaving Sansa with House Bolton aka leaving them holding the bag in the eyes of the Lannisters;

Managed to convince Cersei he is still on her side by confessing that sources have told him Sansa is in Winterfell and marrying Ramsay Bolton (blowing up the Northern Alliance Tywin set up way back when); and

Managed to be peripherally involved in the imprisonment of Queen Cersei and Queen Margaery.

 

Through fancy footwork he's managed to convince each faction that he is on their side, while dealing blows to just about everyone.   He can be mustache twirling but a part of me sometimes hopes that Littlefinger does come out ahead of everyone for his audaciousness alone.   My instinct tells me he may stay in Kings Landing to see how things work out for House Lannister and House Tyrell in terms of their dealings with the Faith Militant but he'll probably want to check in on Sansa this season as well (and won't that be a surprise to him).

 

Cannot wait.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Advance35

[CletusMusashi]

Watching Littledick hang around Jon and Sansa means, inherantly, that he is plotting something that involves Jon and Sansa.

So the question is, what scheme could he concoct that fits the full Littlefiner checklist of being

a. Sleazy,

b. Complicated,

c. Dependant on him having to persuade the marks to do what he wants. By talking. A lot. In his Batman voice... and

d. Allowing him to bang a redhead.

I think he's going to convince Sansa to marry Jon.  This way they don't have to worry about some long-lost cousin saying "A bastard or woman can't rule Winterfell. I'm the true lord!" It also kind of spackles over those weaknesses to outsiders; the North doesn't really seem to care, but other kingdoms might prefer to deal with a lord who is somehow legitimate, and being married to a high-ranking nobleman would help with that.

it would also make LF appear, in Jon's eyes, to be less ambitious, more of a non theatening beta male wing man type. Making it easier to arrange for Jon's death, after which LF could marry Sansa and live happily ever after. Or at least until he killed her in order to shack up with a younger redhead.

If the JonTar reveal comes sooner rather than later, then the bastard factor is a non issue. But the reveal might mark Jon to the northerners as Less Northern, which could be alleviated by marrying back into Winterfell. And if he's the true heir to the Iron Throne, then the reasons it might be politically wise for Sansa to marry him go through the roof.

So either way, same plan, different arguments for it, same eventual outcome.

[Umbelina]

This is excellent!

Now, I admit to enjoying Sansa and Arya outsmarting Littlefinger, but honestly, he's right in this video.  His "trial" and death were extremely unbelievable.  Give it a chance, he builds his case in undeniable ways.

Enjoy.