House Lannister: Hear Me Roar

[Rhondinella]

Here's a thread to discuss House Lannister in general, as a whole, or subsets of a whole, instead of one individual character.

[NoWillToResist]

Honestly, sometimes I'm amazed Tywin doesn't honour kill himself as penance for his offspring. :) One kid is a dwarf (which is shameful to him), his daughter is headstrong and willful, and his son brought shame to the Kingsguard and is now minus a hand.

The twins have been fucking each other and had offspring - one of whom (was) a sadistic little fuckstick who sucked at being King.

Thank God Mycella is clear of the lot of them; she might have a chance to turn out normal!

The one decent kid he has (Tyrion) apparently causes him the most shame. Jaime is determined to return to his Guard duty (which should be a positive thing) but Tywin wants to hide him away and retire him to their homestead. Meanwhile Cersei's assholery goes unchecked by her father.

The man spends most of his time either dictating to his children or looking vastly disappointed by them. Well, you reap what you sow, dude.

Tywin: look at your life. Look at your choices.

[bluvelvet]

Yeah Tywin isn't doing too well in regards to his offspring and grandchildren. Well Joffrey is dead, Myrcella is in Dorne so maybe he can influence Tommen.

[Danny Franks]

I don't think Tywin is half as smart as he thinks he is, to be honest. He's lauded as a political mastermind and schemer, yet most things seem to have fallen right into his lap, without him really having to work for them.

Ned was removed from the action due to his own stupid honour, and nothing Tywin did. Renly was killed by Stannis, without Tywin's involvement, which led to the Tyrell alliance. That alliance was able to flourish because Edmure cocked up and stopped Tywin from returning to the West. Robb married Talisa, which destroyed his alliance with the Freys and ruined his relations with his bannermen, despite him beating the Lannisters in the field, time and again. Tyrion led the defence of Kings Landing and held off Stannis for long enough that Tywin and his new flowery friends could turn up. Yes, he took advantage of these events, but he didn't really have to do a whole lot to benefit from them.

And now he's finally suffering what appear to be some significant setbacks, with Jaime refusing to be his heir, the Martells potentially out for long overdue vengeance, Margaery winning the hearts of the people of Kings Landing and then conveniently losing her husband, the Lannister boy king himself. Not looking quite so resplendent there, Tywin, despite your cutting way with words.

Tommen is next in line for the throne, and he seems less psychotic than Joffrey. But whoever killed Joffrey managed to do it in front of the entire world, and Tywin never had a clue. I wouldn't say Tommen would be guaranteed a long reign, even if backed and influenced by the great Tywin Lannister.

Oh, and perhaps the biggest mark against Tywin as a smart and capable man is that he has been utterly unable to see what an asset he has in Tyrion. A son who is just as smart, and who has excelled at influencing people and managing situations. And what does Tywin do? Undermines and insults him at every opportunity, because he can't handle the shame of having a dwarf for a son. Imbecile.

[John Potts]

I think Tywin's main fault is the one that has brought down many a dynasty: Succession planning. He seems to assume he'll go on for ever (even if he realises intellectually that he won't) and so hasn't really planned for what happens to House Lannister after he dies. Tearing strips off his children every time he sees them is hardly the way to ensure that he establishes a "Thousand Year Dynasty" - he really should recognise that, for all his distaste of his youngest son, Tyrion is the brightest of the three of them, hold his nose, bite the bullet (The arrow?) and steer him toward succeeding Tywin as Hand and/or Warden of Casterly Rock

[Carrie Ann]

That's a good point. Tywin DID have a succession plan--Jaime as Lord of Casterly Rock, Cersei as Queen and her progeny succeeding her, Tyrion keeping a low profile. But he has been too slow or too proud to change course as circumstances demand, instead believing that he can just bulldoze and maneuver everyone into doing what he wants.

[Constantinople]

Anyone else notice that Tommen is Damien from the Omen?

He's a just a little too sweet, isn't he, hoping that Bran doesn't die from his fall, and saying he wouldn't like it if Robb were killed? Crying when his sister Myrcella is sent away to Dorne. Talk about gilding the lily.

Remember near the end of the Battle of Blackwater, when he's sitting with Cersei on the throne and she's about to kill him? That's almost a mirror of the ending scene in the Omen, and we all know how that turned out.

Isn't a little odd that two attempts were made at King Joffrey's life -- the riot and the wedding feast -- and Tommen was present at both of them? That the first action during the riot was to take Tommen to safety?

Ever notice how everything goes Tommen's way? Joffrey is the King of War, Starvation and the Execution of Ned Stark? And now Tommen is the King of Peace?

And we know Tommen has Tywin wrapped around Tommen's finger. Tywin's first action at the wedding feast was to shield Tommen. And how about that game Tommen played in the sept, letting himself be "tutored" by Tywin by first pretending to give the wrong answers. As if the Anti-Seven, or whatever the Anti-Christ is called in Westeros, wouldn't know the "correct" answer.

And now Tommen's king.

Still not convinced?

Here's the prophecy from the Omen:

When Walkers return to Westeros

And a comet rips the sky

And the Holy Targaryen Empire rises,

Then you and I must die.

From the eternal sea he rises,

Creating armies on either shore,

Turning man against his brother

'Til man exists no more.

[Constantinople]

In light of "Breaker of Chains", here is my updated Lannister ranking.

 

Text in spoilers aren't actual spoilers.  It's just a way of collapsing the text so only the changes are displayed.

 

Rule No 1: The Only "Good" Lannister is a Dead Lannister
Rule No 2: See Rule No 1

Rule No 3: Lannisters who haven't appeared on the show are not ranked

 

1-6 remain unchanged:

1. Alton - He was a reasonably good diplomat between Robb Stark & Cersei under the circumstances.  Plus, he's dead.

 

2. Martin and the other Lannister brat that Karstark off'd - Below Alton because they hadn't done anything, positive or negative.  But they're still dead so they're "good" Lannisters.  Don't feel sorry for them.  No doubt they would have risen to be capos in the Lannister Crime Syndicate.

 

3. Joffrey - Since he's a bastard, technically he's a Fleabottom, or whatever King's Landing bastards are called, but for all intents and purposes, he's a Lannister.  Yes he was an awful human being, but he's still dead, so he's still better than everyone else on the list.

 

4. Reginald, the Sleepy Lannister - This is the guy that Tywin sent home with his head still on his shoulders because he thought they could profit from some sleep rather than hold another boring staff meeting at Harrenhal.  Sleepy isn't as good as dead, but it's better than nothing.

 

5. Myrcella - Highest of the non-dead, non-sleepy Lannisters because she seems nice and doesn't even hold titular power.

 

6. Tommen - Nice as Myrcella, but ranked lower because he's now the king.  Has the potential to fall if it turns out he really is Damien, a.k.a the anti-Seven.

 

7 & 8 flip:

7. Tywin (up from No. 8) - Upgraded because Tommen's history lesson shows Tywin the poly sci professor everyone wishes they had.  Tywin doesn't read Machiavelli.  Machiavelli reads him.

 

8. Tyrion (down from No. 7) - Downgraded because he didn't think to ask about his wife until putting together a list of witnesses.  Still the Human Face of Lannisterism and could still jump to No. 3 on the list ahead of Joffrey if the trial takes a bad turn.

 

9-10 remain unchanged:

9. Kevan - Quits too easily.

 

10. Lancel - A spineless bootlicker who "earned" his knighthood based on his sword play with Cersei.

 

11 & 12 flip:

11. Cersei (up from No. 12) - Upgraded because she didn't rape herself.  But Evil, Drunk & Stupid is still no way to go through life.

 

12. Jaime (down from No. 11) - Downgraded because if No means Yes, then this guy lives in the kind of fantasy land where he actually thinks he saved King's Landing.  Regardless, he pushed Bran out a window and killed his cousin in the name of twincest, and he sucks as his chosen profession.  Plus, he's a rapist.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Constantinople

[jellysalmon]

So much Lannister haterade in here. 

Lets rank the Starks. Oh wait they're all boring or dead.

 

Too soon?

[Constantinople]

So much Lannister haterade in here. 

Lets rank the Starks. Oh wait they're all boring or dead.

 

Too soon?

 

Feel free to write I ♥ Lancel posts to your ♥'s delight, but a Stark ranking should go in the Stark thread.

[Lady S.]

Now that his appearances have started airing, and assuming guest credits at the end of the episode are not spoilers, does anyone want to talk about Tommen 2.0? Does he look familiar? Bear any resemblance to his late cousin Martyn, "the brat that Karstark off'd"?

I'm guessing no one noticed, which makes it a successful re-cast.

[Constantinople]

Things aren't looking too good for the Lannisters.

The Iron Bank is sufficiently concerned that they're throwing some money Stannis's way as an insurance policy (putting one of your own on trial doesn't scream stability to bankers).

It seems that Tyrion's request for trial by battle seemingly releases Jaime from his deal with Tywin, which either means

1. Tyrion's champion wins, and Tyrion is heir to Casterly Rock, or

2. Tyrion's champion loses, and Uncle Tywin sees Casterly Rock pass to his drip of a nephew, Lancel.

Some of Tywin's nephews must be real Ls if Jaime can't even remember their names

 

Now that his appearances have started airing, and assuming guest credits at the end of the episode are not spoilers, does anyone want to talk about Tommen 2.0? Does he look familiar? Bear any resemblance to his late cousin Martyn, "the brat that Karstark off'd"?

I knew Cersei was fooling around on Robert with Jaime.

I didn't know she was fooling around on Jaime with Martyn's dad.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Constantinople

[Lady S.]

You think winning a trial by combat will make Tyrion into Tywin's heir?! No laws of gods or men will ever compel Tywin to let Casterly Rock be turned into Tyrion's whorehouse. Not that Tywin can control House Lannister from beyond the grave, but try telling him that. I hope Lancel is prepared to carry everything on his weak shoulders.

I feel like Tywin gets way too much credit just because he's more competent than the kids he screwed up, as if that's such a good thing. If the best Lannister quality is being dead, shouldn't he rank lower on your list since it's his refusal to die that helped Cersei and co. survive Blackwater and "win the war"? (And is Alton #1 just for accidentally volunteering to die? Wanting to help Jaime escape wasn't really being a good diplomat.)
 

I knew Cersei was fooling around on Robert with Jaime.
I didn't know she was fooling around on Jaime with Martyn's dad.

Fooling around with him and Lancel. Btw, Lancel's dad, Ser Kevan

should also be Martyn and Willem's dad by the book family tree.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Lady S.

[Constantinople]

You think winning a trial by combat will make Tyrion into Tywin's heir?!

No, but it will vex Tywin, and he'll need to come up with another plan to get rid of Tyrion and get Jaime to agree to marry and be Lord of Casterly Rock.

I feel like Tywin gets way too much credit just because he's more competent than the kids he screwed up, as if that's such a good thing.

I do think that implicating Sansa, a.k.a, the Key to the North, in the show trial was a mistake. Theoretically she could always be rehabilitated by accusing Shae of perjury. But it would have been better not to implicate her at all, and let her be known as the unwitting dupe of the evil Tyrion.

If the best Lannister quality is being dead, shouldn't he rank lower on your list since it's his refusal to die that helped Cersei and co. survive Blackwater and "win the war"? (And is Alton #1 just for accidentally volunteering to die? Wanting to help Jaime escape wasn't really being a good diplomat.)

Alton didn't volunteer to die, so far as I recall. However, he is dead, which makes him among the best of the Lannisters. He's #1 for serving as an envoy between Robb Stark and Cersei.

As for ranking Lannisters based on their refusal to die, they all refuse to die, so it washes out as a ranking factor.

[Lady S.]

Alton didn't volunteer to die, so far as I recall. However, he is dead, which makes him among the best of the Lannisters. He's #1 for serving as an envoy between Robb Stark and Cersei.

As for ranking Lannisters based on their refusal to die, they all refuse to die, so it washes out as a ranking factor.

Accidentally volunteered to die, because he said he wanted to help Jaime escape and that was how he helped Jaime.

[Constantinople]

Accidentally volunteered to die, because he said he wanted to help Jaime escape and that was how he helped Jaime.

 

Alton and Jaime had a failure to communicate about what helping Jaime meant since Alton had no idea Jaime was going to kill him until it was too late.

 

But Alton is still dead, so he's still #1 Lannister.

[Constantinople]

Given the hard times the Lannister family is facing, I thought they might need a new unofficial motto.

 

Some suggestions:

 

A Lannister always clips his coupons.

 

We're not just morally bankrupt.  We're bankrupt bankrupt.

 

One way or the other, we'll fuck over our brothers

 

Less gold means fewer Lannisters

[NoWillToResist]

 

We're not just morally bankrupt.  We're bankrupt bankrupt.

 

Hee! I like that one.

 

I do find it interesting that the current ruling family, the one with so much power and reputation etc. is really just falling apart at the seams.

 

The kids all hate their father; the daughter is an incestuous cheater; the youngest brother is on trial for killing the king, the elder brother has already killed one king, fucks his twin sister and has fathered children by her (and they are currently usurping the throne under false paternity); and now we discover that the family is flat-ass broke.

 

That's quite a legacy there, Tywin. *snicker*

Edited May 14, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Unusual Suspect]

Tyrion is the youngest, his mother died giving birth to him. Cersei is the eldest, then Jamie.

[Meredith Quill]

Given the hard times the Lannister family is facing, I thought they might need a new unofficial motto.

 

Some suggestions:

 

A Lannister always clips his coupons.

 

We're not just morally bankrupt.  We're bankrupt bankrupt.

 

One way or the other, we'll fuck over our brothers

 

Less gold means fewer Lannisters

'A Lannister always pays his debts', aren't their actual house words. It's 'Hear Me Roar'. So with that in mind, how about:

 

'Hear me excuses why I can't pay my debts right now'

 

or

 

'Hear Me Bitch & Whine'

 

ETA untagged as @Lady S. quite rightly pointed out downthread that the house words form part of the thread title heh.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Tyrion is the youngest, his mother died giving birth to him. Cersei is the eldest, then Jamie.

 

*facepalm* Thanks. I've fixed my post. :)

 

Typical Cersei though, eh? Even as twins, she had to come first. Oh, heh. Sex pun, too!

[Independent George]

Not having any working gold mines does not equal broke. England and the Netherlands eclipsed Spain and Portugal in the 17th century by creating wealth rather than digging it out of the ground. There's no reason to believe Tywin hasn't kept the Westerlands economy humming after the gold ran out, and with the war seemingly in its end phases, there's no reason to believe they can't rebuild their capital. This is especially true given that the North and the Riverlands have been wrecked pretty badly, while the Westelands were largely untouched. As long as the Tyrells continue to foot their share of the bills as the price of the royal marriage, the Lannisters are not in terrible shape.

[Meredith Quill]

Why tell Cersei three years after the fact though? To my mind that is evidence that their fortune is dwindling more & more with each year that passes, to the point where Tywin is explaining to Cersei why she must marry Loras.

Can you imagine Tywin - when he was still 'the richest man in Westeros' - ever feeling the need to justify to any of his children why he does/wants anything? That in itself informs me that their financial situation is none too healthy.

[Independent George]

Why tell Cersei three years after the fact though? To my mind that is evidence that their fortune is dwindling more & more with each year that passes, to the point where Tywin is explaining to Cersei why she must marry Loras.

Can you imagine Tywin - when he was still 'the richest man in Westeros' - ever feeling the need to justify to any of his children why he does/wants anything? That in itself informs me that their financial situation is none too healthy.

Truthfully, I can't imagine the hundreds of miners working the claim not blabbing immediately, turning it into the gossip of every house in the kingdoms. Even if they are threatened into silence, somebody's got to notice them not siddenly not having to go to work every morning, or that the sudden drop in demand for pickaxes and coal. There's just so much about the mines running dry that doesn't make any sense.

But, if you're willing to handwave that, then I think the fact that nobody seems to know about it lends credence to Tywin having planned for it years in advance and transitioning the economy as the mine productivity declined. Hell, the crown's debt could be considered an investment - his grandson is the Crown Prince, and is therefore not likely to stiff the Lannisters on the debt. The war was not forseeable (thanks again, kids!), and so long as the crown collected taxes, the royal notes were worth more than the gold.

[Meredith Quill]

Truthfully, I can't imagine the hundreds of miners working the claim not blabbing immediately, turning it into the gossip of every house in the kingdoms. Even if they are threatened into silence, somebody's got to notice them not siddenly not having to go to work every morning, or that the sudden drop in demand for pickaxes and coal. There's just so much about the mines running dry that doesn't make any sense.

But, if you're willing to handwave that, then I think the fact that nobody seems to know about it lends credence to Tywin having planned for it years in advance and transitioning the economy as the mine productivity declined. Hell, the crown's debt could be considered an investment - his grandson is the Crown Prince, and is therefore not likely to stiff the Lannisters on the debt. The war was not forseeable (thanks again, kids!), and so long as the crown collected taxes, the royal notes were worth more than the gold.

I do agree it is rather stretching credibility that people wouldn't have talked about the mines etc.

However, if we go by how the show presented the information to us i.e. this is news to Cersei; whilst we could believably assume that yes, someone as shrewd as Tywin would have made contingency plans, 3 years ago those probably wouldn't have included having to go to war (again) or having to bankroll 2 coronations, 2 state funerals (Robert & Joffery) plus a no expense spared wedding, (along with the Tyrells).

It seems to me that (thanks to Robert & Littlefinger) the crown is essentially cash poor and also heavily in debt to the Iron Bank, therefore, unable to repay it's considerable debt to the Lannisters at this moment in time, so until such time it can repay the Lannisters, regardless of blood ties, it is a bad debt.

If Tywin suddenly found himself needing to free up that money, it wouldn't be available/possible right now. So yes perhaps it could be viewed as a long term investment, providing they ultimately win the war, otherwise it's a write off and thus cannot be guaranteed upon to bear fruit.

As far as taxes go, they obviously are woefully inadequate in terms of providing a sufficient income to cover the crowns outgoings, otherwise LF wouldn't have had to borrow so much money from the IB and Tywin in the first place. Probably even less so now, with so much farmland/crops having been destroyed in the war, not to mention the gods only know how many 1000's of men/smallfolk killed fighting for, at one point, 5 different kings.

[bluvelvet]

I guess technically Tywin can call in his loans to the crown, except that he IS the crown.

 

When the IB made the comment that Tywin was 67, I thought he was 27 when he had the twins, for some reason I am having a hard time imagining Tywin as a young man.

Edited May 15, 2014 by bluvelvet

[dr pepper]

The biggest problem with the Iron Debt is that in the absence of gold production, it does not seem that Westeros produces much that is valued in the east.

 

Dornish wine can only sustain so much trade. Staples such as grain and meat will be a net loss for some time, war having disrupted the last chance to use the long summer. The work of artisans won't close the gap, nor will mummified beardy maesters for yard decoration. Also, thanks to the war, there's a dearth of armored infantry for mercernary work.

 

Sad to say, there is only one commodity left, warm bodies to fill the slave pens. I'm surprised that Cercei hasn't suggested that yet.

[Lady S.]

'A Lannister always pays his debts', aren't their actual house words. It's

'Hear Me Roar'

. So with that in mind, how about:

 

'Hear me excuses why I can't pay my debts right now'

 

or

 

'Hear Me Bitch & Whine'

 

Spolier tagged just in case some people don't want to know, even though they are on the HBO guide.

They're also in the title of this thread.

 

I don't think Tywin thinks of their gold flow problem as too big an obstacle, else why give his hated younger son unlimited purse strings, pay to have a Valryian steel worker shipped over from Volantis, and offer a reward for Sandor Clegane that's 10x what Varys suggested? If this was a real problem to him he could've done something before now instead of just using the information to drive a point through Cersei's thick skull. The Lannisters obviously still have cash on hand to throw at people, as long as the Tyrells are around they'll keep living beyond their means. The real problem comes when the Iron Bank starts to call in the Crown's debts.

[GreyBunny]

If it wasn't a problem it wouldn't have been brought up.  The 100 silver stags for Sandor

isn't a huge amount, still less than 1 gold dragon.

.  The swordmaker from Volantis was probably also paid with cash on hand.  The unlimited purse strings for the crown are now tied with the Tyrells.  Tywin can keep up appearances for a while but if things with the Tyrells fall apart the Lannisters will probably be in trouble.

 

I would find it hilarious if Tywin was putting on a show of wealth and power if the reality is that he's financially strapped.  Chalk that up to another hypocrisy like condemning Tytos and Tyrion for using whores while he himself died with one in his bed.

[Lady S.]

It's obviously meant to be relevant to the plot, but I don't think it registers the same way in Tywin's mind, a place where keeping up appearances is everything, and he can bury his head in the sand about twincest, but a dwarf son openly whoring is too shameful to House Lannister.

 

Wasn't Tyrion's gold meant to be from Casterly Rock in s1, not his brother-in-law's royal treasury? The Lannisters definitely had ready cash in s1-2 before the Tyrell alliance. I have to agree with Independent George that the Lannisters being broke broke just doesn't fly. The Westerlands were not completely untouched by the war, Robb Stark campaigned there in the 2nd book/season. And what do you do when you campaign in the Westerlands? Capture gold mines. Idk, man, maybe the gold dried up but the silver mines are still going strong.

[Constantinople]

Not having any working gold mines does not equal broke. England and the Netherlands eclipsed Spain and Portugal in the 17th century by creating wealth rather than digging it out of the ground. There's no reason to believe Tywin hasn't kept the Westerlands economy humming after the gold ran out, and with the war seemingly in its end phases, there's no reason to believe they can't rebuild their capital. This is especially true given that the North and the Riverlands have been wrecked pretty badly, while the Westelands were largely untouched. As long as the Tyrells continue to foot their share of the bills as the price of the royal marriage, the Lannisters are not in terrible shape.

 

Except Tywin didn't mention any of this when talking to Cersei.  Only about mining the Tyrell fortune until it's dry as well.

 

For that matter, aside from gold, what's distinctive about the Westerlands economy?  What do they do/grow that everyone else doesn't?  More importantly ,what do they do/grow that someone else doesn't do more cheaply?

 

I also wonder just how much disposable income the Tyrells will have once winter arrives gives that their wealth appears to be based primarily on agriculture.

 

But I agree it's a little odd there's been no talk about the empty gold mines over the course of 3 years.  I just don't see how you can keep the covered up.

[NoWillToResist]

 

I don't think Tywin thinks of their gold flow problem as too big an obstacle, else why give his hated younger son unlimited purse strings, pay to have a Valryian steel worker shipped over from Volantis, and offer a reward for Sandor Clegane that's 10x what Varys suggested?

 

Because if Mr Moneybanks suddenly becomes thrifty, that's a giant red flag to any observer. If he spends as usual, no one will suspect at thing.

 

Quite often someone BEHAVING as if they have money gives the impression, rightly or wrongly, that they have it.

 

Someone living in a big house will usually be considered 'rich', even if it's mortgaged to the hilt and the owners are drowning in debt. People don't see the numbers; they see physical assets and behaviour. Perception is everything.

[Constantinople]

I've been reflecting on the late Prince Oberyn's remark that it's rare to meet a Lannister that shares his enthusiasm for dead Lannisters. Consequently, I've revised Rule No. 2 (orginally, it was See Rule No. 1). If you're not a dead Lannister, you should still get credit for killing or trying to kill another Lannister.

 

Rule No 1: The Only "Good" Lannister is a Dead Lannister

Rule No 2: Killing or trying to kill a fellow Lannister isn't as good as being dead, but it's the next best thing

Rule No 3: Lannisters who haven't appeared on the show are not ranked

Thus, the revised rankings.

 

1. Alton - He was a reasonably good diplomat between Robb Stark & Cersei under the circumstances.  Plus, he's dead.

 

2. Martin and the other Lannister brat that Karstark off'd (Willem?) - They never contributed anything positive or negative, so they're below Alton. But they're still dead, so they're above everyone else.

 

3. Joffrey - See Rule No. 1. Small bonus points for trying to have Tyrion killed in the Battle of Blackwater.

4. Cersei (up from No. 11) - Still a horrible human being, but she's actively trying to kill Tyrion, the second most useful Lannister, and no matter what happens to Tyrion, he won't be around to help the family out any more.

5. Jaime (up from No. 12) - Upgraded because he actually did kill a Lannister, albeit an unimportant one. Ranked below Cersei because Lannister victim is less important to the family than Cersei's.

Thanks to Cersei & Jaime rocketing-up the rankings, everyone else is downgraded.

6. Reginald, the Sleepy Lannister - In Season 2 he thought everyone could profit from some sleep rather than hold another boring staff meeting at Harrenhal.  If you can't be dead, being asleep at the switch is almost as good.

 

7. Myrcella - Highest of the living, awake Lannisters who haven't committed or attempt to commit Lannistercide because she seems nice and doesn't hold titular power.

 

8. Tommen - Nice as Myrcella, but ranked lower because he's now the king.

 

9. Tywin - Thought about upgrading Tywin but didn't because it was Cersei's idea to kill Tyrion; Tywin was just along for the ride. Some contend Tywin tried to kill Tyrion by putting him in the vanguard in Season 1. That may be, but the attempt failed, whereas worst case scenario for Cersei's most recent attempt is the Night's Watch.

 

10. Tyrion - Positioned to rocket up to No. 3 now that his trial by combat went south.

 

11. Kevan - Still quits too easily, but could rise in the rankings if we ever see him again.

 

12. Lancel - Cheer up Lancel! You may be a spineless, credulous bootlicker with passable swordsmanship, but the way things are going, you have an excellent chance of inheriting the Rock.

Honorable mention: Orson. He's not ranked becuase of Rule No. 3. But his mindless slaughter of those who never harmed him is the ultimate embodiment of the Lannister legacy.

[Lady S.]

How about a list of Lannister stories that went on way too long before getting to a point? There's been at least two now with the Orson story and Alton's memory of squiring for Jaime. Both could have used Tywin waving his hand the way he did to Pycelle.
 

I was thinking more along the lines of Real Housewives of Westeros.

You mean this?




 
Though my favorite is still Toddlers and Tiaras of Westeros.

[TooMuchCoffee]

Yes!!!   :)  I guess I need to visit the internet more often for parodies and such things, but it can be dangerous out there.

[fantique]

How about a list of Lannister stories that went on way too long before getting to a point? There's been at least two now with the Orson story and Alton's memory of squiring for Jaime. Both could have used Tywin waving his hand the way he did to Pycelle.

 

You mean this?

 

Though my favorite is still Toddlers and Tiaras of Westeros.

 

'Hear Me Bitch & Whine'

Oh my god this is priceless! ROTFL

I needed this after this last episode.

But seriously Tywin... Snap out of it. I used to like him because he put Cersei in her place. His beloved legacy is going up in flames and his hubris is going to ruin him. He is going to die realising it was all for naught. How does he think it will end for his line? Jaime will do anything to oppose him, Tyrion is his only child that could help and he wants him killed for some stupid pride issue. If he were to die now, Tommen would be under the authority of his idiot mother.

I think it's time the Lannisters suffered a big loss (Let's be real Joff dying was a relief for all except Cersei)

[Lady S.]

Oh my god this is priceless! ROTFL

I needed this after this last episode.

But seriously Tywin... Snap out of it. I used to like him because he put Cersei in her place.

And he put Tyrion in his place before he ever did to Cersei onscreen. Though I do feel Tyrion being his acting Hand was probably meant as a slight to Cersei more than an honor to Tyrion. Tywin's manipulations include playing his children off one another. He is responsible for Cersei's hatred of Tyrion, and probably the rest of her gross beliefs, only she expresses this belief system in much dumber ways. Just as Cersei is to blame for most of Joffrey's gross beliefs only for him to express them in even dumber ways. Cersei is distilled Tywin mixed with instability, and Joffers was distilled Cersei (and greatly distorted Robert and The Hound, his only male role models) mixed with even more instability. But Tywin has been selling a rotten philosophy from the start, which he holds up with thin rationalizations, the thousand year-strong Lannister was always as likely as Viserys sweeping the Seven Kingdoms was imo.

Yes!!! :) I guess I need to visit the internet more often for parodies and such things, but it can be dangerous out there.

Happy to be your tumblr ambassador.

(Did anyone else notice that both Tywin and Cersei had wine goblets to refresh them during the fight?)

Edited June 4, 2014 by Lady S.

[Lady S.]

I'm left now to wonder about Tywin's hatred of Tyrion. I mean, he CLAIMS that it's because Tyrion is an imp and a whoremonger and drunkard etc. But Tyrion is smart and mostly decent and quite cleaned up his act recently but it didn't matter. Considering that Tywin recently stated, while staring at the business end of a crossbow, that Tyrion killed his mother, I can't help but wonder if...just maybe...Tywin loved his wife and didn't handle his grief quite so well (especially since she died giving birth to such an abomination in his eyes)? Is this why he didn't try to dissuade Cersei from her similarly stupid perspective?

 

If Tywin's wife had lived...would Tywin hate his son so much? Perhaps it all would have hinged on how the mother felt about her son...

I always assumed Tywin encouraged Cersei's hatred of Tyrion, he was probably disappointed it didn't catch on with Jaime too. The show hasn't told us much of anything about Tywin's marriage, but I do think we can take it Tywin did grieve for his wife and not take the pragmatic approach of Walder Frey, if he's still holding her death against Tyrion. But the other thing he holds against Tyrion is his dwarfism, so I doubt he'd be as bitter to Jaime and Cersei if their birth killed their mother. He definitely couldn't accuse them of being "ill-made little creature"s waddling about as a curse from the gods to teach him humility. I think back to when Cersei first brought it up in s2, "mother gone for the sake of you", I wonder if the "joke" isn't just that Tyrion was the cause of his own mother's death but that she died for the sake of bringing into the world a dwarf instead of another golden son like Jaime. Given the Lannister mentality and Tywin is a horrible person, I think that if Joanna Lannister (her name's in the HBO family tree) had lived, Tyrion probably would be treated with less bitter contempt but would still be regarded as a third-rate Lannister only fit the marry the daughter of a family they've just killed.

[Paradigm14]

Lancel is BACK! I love Lancel!

[Holmbo]

Lancel Lannister what a stupid name.

My friend didn't recognize him at all so I showed her that season one clip and she got confused wondering if he was somehow undercover for the sparrows there pretending to be a wimp.

[Paradigm14]

I think he was very much changed by the Battle of the Blackwater. I guess it didn't make him more mentally stable, though!

[Constantinople]

Lancel Lannister what a stupid name.

Lanc(el)ing a boil is never pleasant.

[Lady S.]

Something I noticed in the premiere was the theme of poop when it comes to Lannisters. First Robb's quote about seeing if Tywin shits gold, then Jaime spends about a year sitting in his own filth as Robb's prisoner and keeps complaining about it afterward, Joffrey got clod by dung during a riot, there was a nice close-up of Tywin's horse taking a dump in the throne room, then he gets murdered on the shitter, now we hear from Tyrion and Varys how they had to dispose of his poop when he was boxed up on the ship. What is the meaning of this trend? Are there other more subtle poop references I've forgotten? Will Cersei get one someday, or is that another thing denied her as a woman? I apologize for these thoughts, but this feels like a deliberate theme.

[FnkyChkn34]

I have a bit of a stupid, off topic question, so I didn't want to put it in the popular main discussion threads but maybe someone will see it here and help me out...

Who is running Casterly Rock?  Cersei is the queen, Jaime is by her side, Tyrion is with Dany, Tywin is dead, Kevan is dead, Lancel is dead...

[Athena]

2 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Who is running Casterly Rock?  Cersei is the queen, Jaime is by her side, Tyrion is with Dany, Tywin is dead, Kevan is dead, Lancel is dead...

I do not think this is ever spelled out in the show. It would probably be a castellan.

The Lannisters are known as a prolific bunch and there are many lesser known Lannisters and cousins around. So I am sure there are some distant ones manning Casterly Rock. 

[RedheadZombie]

I have a good overall understanding of things from Watchers on the Wall, and Game of Thrones Wiki, but I've not read the books other than the first chapters of book one.  In the finale, Cersei mentioned that Tywin's death is what brought about the fall of the Lannisters (or at least a change in fortune).  I realize that Tywin did protect them due to the fear, respect, and power he wrought on the kingdom.  But didn't Cersei worsen things by killing Uncle Kevan?  Tywin didn't tolerate fools, and he kept his brother close for a reason.  And surely that reason was that Kevan echoed Tywin's beliefs and strategies.  Kevan never had a major role in the show, so I'm wondering if the book readers can back up or shoot down my opinion of Kevan's relevance in the family.

I completely understand why Cersei wanted Lancel dead, but Kevan seemed loyal to the family, and powerful in his own right.  If killing him helped cause the Lannister loss in status, then Cersei is partly responsible for that loss.  And it would have been nice if Tyrion put that out there while she was blaming him for everything under the sun.

[Remmy20]

1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

But didn't Cersei worsen things by killing Uncle Kevan?  Tywin didn't tolerate fools, and he kept his brother close for a reason.  And surely that reason was that Kevan echoed Tywin's beliefs and strategies.  Kevan never had a major role in the show, so I'm wondering if the book readers can back up or shoot down my opinion of Kevan's relevance in the family.

As far as the books are concerned, I would say you are correct about Kevan. Though it is difficult to say how much it relates to the show considering things play out a bit differently compared to the books.  

[glowbug]

8 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I have a good overall understanding of things from Watchers on the Wall, and Game of Thrones Wiki, but I've not read the books other than the first chapters of book one.  In the finale, Cersei mentioned that Tywin's death is what brought about the fall of the Lannisters (or at least a change in fortune).  I realize that Tywin did protect them due to the fear, respect, and power he wrought on the kingdom.  But didn't Cersei worsen things by killing Uncle Kevan?  Tywin didn't tolerate fools, and he kept his brother close for a reason.  And surely that reason was that Kevan echoed Tywin's beliefs and strategies.  Kevan never had a major role in the show, so I'm wondering if the book readers can back up or shoot down my opinion of Kevan's relevance in the family.

I completely understand why Cersei wanted Lancel dead, but Kevan seemed loyal to the family, and powerful in his own right.  If killing him helped cause the Lannister loss in status, then Cersei is partly responsible for that loss.  And it would have been nice if Tyrion put that out there while she was blaming him for everything under the sun.

In the books Cersei doesn't actually kill Kevan. He refuses to be Hand to Tommen and leaves King's Landing because he doesn't want to deal with Cersei, who insists on running things as Queen Regent. When she's imprisoned by the High Sparrow Kevan agrees to be Hand and do damage control but at the end of A Dance with Dragons he's killed by Varys, who wants to take down the Lannisters so he can install (likely fake) Aegon on the throne. Kevan is competent which is why Varys kills him.

All of the Lannisters played a part in bringing their House down and none more so than Cersei. Sleeping with her twin brother, refusing to produce any legitimate heirs with Robert, raising Joffery to be a psychopath and indulging his worst tendencies, arming the faith, etc. The list goes on and on. Tyrion and Jaime played their parts as well but I'd say Cersei bears the most responsibility. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by glowbug

[Lady S.]

On 8/30/2017 at 5:04 PM, RedheadZombie said:

I have a good overall understanding of things from Watchers on the Wall, and Game of Thrones Wiki, but I've not read the books other than the first chapters of book one.  In the finale, Cersei mentioned that Tywin's death is what brought about the fall of the Lannisters (or at least a change in fortune).  I realize that Tywin did protect them due to the fear, respect, and power he wrought on the kingdom.  But didn't Cersei worsen things by killing Uncle Kevan?  Tywin didn't tolerate fools, and he kept his brother close for a reason.  And surely that reason was that Kevan echoed Tywin's beliefs and strategies.  Kevan never had a major role in the show, so I'm wondering if the book readers can back up or shoot down my opinion of Kevan's relevance in the family.

Yeah, it's more clear in the books that he was Tywin's right hand man, his only confidant and Kevan had his head pretty far up Tywin's ass. But he also played a role in arranging Cersei's walk of shame, angry about her treatment of Lancel (and probably angry with her for insulting him and throwing wine in his face when he refused to serve on her small council), and that humiliation for House Lannister is not something Tywin would ever have approved of. It's true that his death further weakened House Lannister (which is book Varys's motive for offing him and Pycelle) but I would say that Tywin's loss did really set off the fall of his House and I don't think even Kevan had any illusions that he could really replace Tywin as a leader.