S12.E05: Fugitive of the Judoon

[Eulipian 5k]

I don’t know what the writers are doing with the Doctors, nobody here does. What I do know is that the new show runner has produced some very enjoyable, controversial, unnerving Doctor Who, not the least being to give women a crack at being the Doctor. The rest, I erase from the dvr.

 I’ve learned a lot about Classic Who and many suggested ways recent stories can fit the canon and logic of a show with talking space rhinos. The shows are already in the can, so I’ll wait and watch what the writers give us. Gallifrey is not a democracy.

[DoctorAtomic]

I was spoiled for the big reveals because the FB page had to blare it out less than 2 days after when I wasn't looking for spoilers.

I am enjoying the build up though and the hunt for the 'fugitive'. Thirteen is fun when she's bossing around aliens though.

Even though I knew what was coming, that was a cool reveal. And the TARDIS was like One?

Edited January 30, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[DanaK]

I too hope Chibnall sticks the landing. The Hybrid thing during Capaldi's era ended up being a dud after it was hyped up as something important. I also hope things don’t get convoluted and crazy confusing. I was a fan of the X Files and the central alien conspiracy story got so crazy and nonsensical after several seasons and show runners. In the meantime, I’m enjoying this story and look forward to seeing how things play out

[DoctorAtomic]

17 minutes ago, DanaK said:

I was a fan of the X Files and the central alien conspiracy story got so crazy and nonsensical after several seasons and show runners. In the meantime, I’m enjoying this story and look forward to seeing how things play out

Ditto Lost. But by the time Lost came around, I learned my lesson from the XFiles and laughed at them all telling me it was going to hold up. That's always a risk.

The worst showrunner of Doctor Who is always the current showrunner. As it was echoed up before, the show has been around for eleventy billion years. Someone somewhere is going to find some plot thread about something and how whatever episode totally ripped it off. The show has always played very very fast and loose with canon. I remember the screeching about the 'cop out' getting a new set of regens as if the most iconic character in scifi was going to just die because.

I'm not a huge Who fanboy. I certainly enjoy the show and have watched every episode of the NuWho and liked them. The show is about a madman(woman!) in a box that has a soft spot for Earth and whisks random people away for adventures. I prefer in the course of that, the Doctor inspires people to be brave and be better.

I like the actor playing Zero or Two-B or whatever. I *always* will like when two or more Doctors meet that they get all cranky with one another. And really, though I don't know much about the classic era, there hasn't been nearly as many Multiple Doctor stories in this post modern era.

Huge credit to everyone that pointed out there was no seen regen between Two and Three. I would rather Ruth not be Zero because it seems that One has always been considered One consistently, and I'd like it to stay that way. tbh, the Doctor could have burned through a whole set of them between Two and Three.

Edited January 30, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[Eulipian 5k]

Creating a new Doctor has obvious paradoxes because the audience saw all 13 iterations with no gaps. What intrigues is that the biggest obstacles to Ruth being our Doctor were deliberately written into the script. The writers added the Police Box TARDIS, and they Inserted dialog about the Sonic so, I am the poor, sweet lamb who believes they intend to resolve these.

They will make a buncha business on RuthDoctor cosplay, figures, and all that flows from this new Doctor.
 

Edit: Just saw the video of the new figure on YouTube!

Edited January 30, 2020 by Eulipian 5k
FanArt

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Creating a new Doctor has obvious paradoxes because the audience saw all 13 iterations with no gaps.

I don't know if that's technically correct. We never saw the 'War Doctor' until we saw him. Then we saw Eight regen into him and him to Nine. So yeah, but no because when everyone saw Nine we naturally assumed it was Eight --> Nine.

So really, ironically, it's already 'canon' that there's 'in between' Doctor. And the Ten/Yara/pocketwatch hidey-hole was already done too.

RuthDoctor doesn't seem to realize Thirteen has upwards 2500 years on her.

I like that the 'fam' did once again keep their wits about them. Between being scooped and having to deal with Jack. And I did like the Doctor getting all crusty Doctor at the end and the TARDIS kind of being cheeky.

Way out there, but could Ruth be the Valeyard? They already name checked it on Trenzalore with Eleven and the Valeyard is known to be nasty. (As I'm reading the rest of all the posts it seems someone beat me to it. But I thought of it before I read that so share the credit if we're right.)

I do like typing names as numbers - I'm a real doctor (PhD) and I always love hearing just 'Doctor' and get put out when people use my name. Though I'm probably running out of regens. I think I'm Seven.

I would point out that the Doctor lies - but they made a huge deal out of the scan and talking at the same time. So it's the same person. Totally will roll with Ruth - Jenny though, which also counts.

Wasn't Two very physical with a lot of the fighting? This would make sense if Ruth was Two+, if you will.

Edited January 30, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[DanaK]

In spite of some being cranky about the possible change of lore, I think most people are looking forward to seeing how it goes. It’s gratifying to see the fan base positively abuzz after this episode (somewhat starting with Spyfall with the Master reveal) as well as a lot of the media, especially after various parts of the fanbase has been sniping at each other for the last few years. Fans are clearly loving trying to figure out what’s happening. I think Chibnall put out the statement that Ruth is the Doctor and it wasn’t a trick so as to not cheapen the first Black Doctor

I think it’s safe to say we won’t get all the answers this season, based on interviews with Jodie and Chibnall. They both have hinted things will play out through at least next season

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't know if that's technically correct. We never saw the 'War Doctor' until we saw him. Then we saw Eight regen into him and him to Nine. So yeah, but no because when everyone saw Nine we naturally assumed it was Eight --> Nine.

Way out there, but could Ruth be the Valeyard? They already name checked it on Trenzalore with Eleven and the Valeyard is known to be nasty. (As I'm reading the rest of all the posts it seems someone beat me to it. But I thought of it before I read that so share the credit if we're right.)

Wasn't Two very physical with a lot of the fighting? This would make sense if Ruth was Two+, if you will.

When the War Doctor was created, there was a gap available to wedge him into, because Eight had not been seen regenerating into Nine on-screen (that gap has now been closed, with two regenerations seen on-screen in full: Eight into War and War into Nine). There is only one other possible gap of that nature in the entire sequence, which is Two into Three, since although Two's regeneration began on-screen, we never saw Three's face until the next season (when he fell out of the TARDIS still wearing Two's clothes, for what it's worth). There are no other gaps, every other regeneration has been seen, in full.

The Valeyard wasn't a true persona of the Doctor. It was an artificially created amalgamation of the Doctor's darker side, no more real than the Dream Lord in that episode with Amy and Rory (or the Watcher in Logopolis). It existed for a time, but wasn't one of the Doctor's actual true regenerations. This could be a similar deal...but given the evidence, I don't think so. For one thing, the Valeyard was said to have been drawn from the Doctor somewhere between his twelfth and final incarnations, and Ruth's Doctor was clearly much older than that.

And, um, no. Two did not do any fighting! You are thinking of Three with his Venusian aikido. Two was the sweetest, gentlest, most harmless persona the Doctor has ever had. He had Jamie to do all the fighting for him! The First Doctor could hold his own in a fight, though, if he really had to, despite the frailty of his body.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Llywela

[libgirl2]

9 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Wasn't Two very physical with a lot of the fighting? This would make sense if Ruth was Two+, if you will.

 

that was three, the "Bond" Doctor.

[DanaK]

Something I don’t understand about the Judoon I may have missed in previous appearances: how can they be a galactic police force and contracted bounty hunters at the same time? That seems like a conflict of interest and an improper use of the police

[Eulipian 5k]

The scene at the lighthouse/on the coast, had a Broadchurchy feel to it especially Jodie's portrayal of the moment she uncovered the RuthTARDIS. The whole feeling around the digging up of a past long "gone" relic reminded me of the feeling when the Final Five were being uncovered on Battlestar Galactica. I love that "How can this be???" feeling!

Jack! The Oncoming Snogg, what will we do with you in the #MeToo era?

[libgirl2]

8 hours ago, Llywela said:

And, um, no. Two did not do any fighting! You are thinking of Three with his Venusian aikido. Two was the sweetest, gentlest, most harmless persona the Doctor has ever had. He had Jamie to do all the fighting for him! The First Doctor could hold his own in a fight, though, if he really had to, despite the frailty of his body.

Two did let Jamie to the fighting, just like Ian did a lot of it for One. I remember reading that when Pertwee took over the role, he loved gadgets and the whole kind of action scene, so his Doctor was a bit more "hands on". 

[Llywela]

10 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Two did let Jamie to the fighting, just like Ian did a lot of it for One. I remember reading that when Pertwee took over the role, he loved gadgets and the whole kind of action scene, so his Doctor was a bit more "hands on". 

Well, Pertwee, of course, had been in the actual secret service during WWII, and something of that translated into his time as the Doctor.

Ian, of course, did most of the fighting for Hartnell's Doctor - but he did get in a fight or two himself, most notably in The Romans.

[libgirl2]

15 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Well, Pertwee, of course, had been in the actual secret service during WWII, and something of that translated into his time as the Doctor.

Ian, of course, did most of the fighting for Hartnell's Doctor - but he did get in a fight or two himself, most notably in The Romans.

Pertwee is my favorite Doctor. 

[Florinaldo]

26 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Pertwee is my favorite Doctor. 

He was my introduction to the show and he is still at the top for me, right besides Baker (Colin that is), who was badly mistreated by the production team despite showing much potential, which he got to fully realise in the audio dramas.

[Eulipian 5k]

Is Ruth Doctor now just like Clara, flying around in a TARDIS, avoiding that final second, before she reports, or is dragged back to the CIA to die and be regenerated into a mind-wiped Three?

She intended to hide out as an earther, but now that she's un"Earthed", the Doctor gets her a Clara-get-out-of-death pass, and she can occasionally work with JodiDoctor to defeat the Master and/or Cyberman.

Everybody wins, Nobody dies! and the Twitterati go ape-sh#t about canon.

[libgirl2]

29 minutes ago, Florinaldo said:

He was my introduction to the show and he is still at the top for me, right besides Baker (Colin that is), who was badly mistreated by the production team despite showing much potential, which he got to fully realise in the audio dramas.

His audios are probably my favorite. 

[Bruinsfan]

10 hours ago, Llywela said:

The First Doctor could hold his own in a fight, though, if he really had to, despite the frailty of his body.

He primarily eviscerated opponents with acerbic crankiness, if I remember correctly.

My favorite Doctor tends to change depending on which one I last saw. Four is obviously the most iconic one, and my introduction to the show. But Three was such a great combination of reassuring fatherly figure (particularly to Sarah Jane, by far my favorite companion) and ruthlessly capable action hero, and One and Twelve hit that sweet spot of grouchy know-it-all who actually is the smartest person in the room that appeals very much to my taste. I've loved them all except Six (no fault of Baker's) and Eleven (but at least he had outstanding companions for most of his run).

[Prower]

16 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Whether you love or hate his decisions, Chib is not a dumpster fire. I may have some issues with his steady middle-of-the-road storytelling but at least the show isn't spraying burning trash down upon me.

Not a dumpster fire? Middle of the road? Are you serious? Who under Chibnall is like somebody opened a portal to hell in a dumpster and now the flames of hell are lapping out of it.

The cinematagrophy is horrible, the writing is atrocious and the acting sucks ass.

This was the first good episode of his entire run as showrunner. Yes, that means all the other episodes under him were at least bad, if not outright horrible.

[libgirl2]

9 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

He primarily eviscerated opponents with acerbic crankiness, if I remember correctly.

My favorite Doctor tends to change depending on which one I last saw. Four is obviously the most iconic one, and my introduction to the show. But Three was such a great combination of reassuring fatherly figure (particularly to Sarah Jane, by far my favorite companion) and ruthlessly capable action hero, and One and Twelve hit that sweet spot of grouchy know-it-all who actually is the smartest person in the room that appeals very much to my taste. I've loved them all except Six (no fault of Baker's) and Eleven (but at least he had outstanding companions for most of his run).

And Two would play the fool. The enemy had no idea that he was not only listening but he was coming up with a plan. Wasn't it in Tomb of the Cybermen that someone called him an idiot or something and dismissed him?

8 hours ago, Prower said:

Not a dumpster fire? Middle of the road? Are you serious? Who under Chibnall is like somebody opened a portal to hell in a dumpster and now the flames of hell are lapping out of it.

The cinematagrophy is horrible, the writing is atrocious and the acting sucks ass.

This was the first good episode of his entire run as showrunner. Yes, that means all the other episodes under him were at least bad, if not outright horrible.

I hated last season. This season has been much better, not great, but a marked improvement. Still don't like Ryan though. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by libgirl2

[Eulipian 5k]

9 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

Still don't like Ryan though.

But he's a step up from cheesy!

Ryan does a bit of unscripted work in the background of his scenes. There was the shadow puppets in AITUK, funny walks out of frame and his physical comedy in the otherwise forgettable O-55.

I've got Yaz pegged for her new job rebooting Torchwood with a certain renegade Time Agent.

[Prower]

53 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I hated last season. This season has been much better, not great, but a marked improvement. Still don't like Ryan though. 

I don't really see it.

Spyfall's cinematagrophy was so bad that I wanted to vomit the whole time, so even if there was a good story, I would have missed it.

Orphan 55 was boring, cliched and with an annoying speach at the end that made me want to stick hot pokers into my ears.  Also it shat on the canon.

Nikola Tesla's Night of Terror wasn't offensive, but it was pretty boring and the bargain bin Racnos didn't do it for me either... I guess that episode was better than anything from last season, but that isn't saying much...

Edited January 30, 2020 by Prower

[libgirl2]

23 minutes ago, Prower said:

I don't really see it.

Spyfall's cinematagrophy was so bad that I wanted to vomit the whole time, so even if there was a good story, I would have missed it.

Orphan 55 was boring, cliched and with an annoying speach at the end that made me want to stick hot pokers into my ears.  Also it shat on the canon.

Nikola Tesla's Night of Terror wasn't offensive, but it was pretty boring and the bargain bin Racnos didn't do it for me either... I guess that episode was better than anything from last season, but that isn't saying much...

I guess it entertained me enough to want to keep watching. Last season, I struggled to finish and episode and was being reminded more and more of the worst of the  McCoy era. I wouldn't rewatch any of last season, so far I would be more apt to rewatch these or at least parts of them. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by libgirl2

[DanaK]

It continues to fascinate me how opinions of a show (or a particular episode or even a movie) can be so varied, but that makes life interesting. I love both Series 11 and 12

I will say, so far I'm not seeing much character development for the companions this series, especially Yaz, as Series 12 seems to be focused more on the Doctor. They are questioning the Doctor more, but that's not personal development

@Eulipian 5k Speaking of Tosin's funny background stuff, notice how he does a bit of a dance exiting the coffee shop in this episode. I think Yaz would be better suited for a rebooted UNIT. I'm guessing if Tosin actually leaves for his new series, I can see him going off with Jack to restart Torchwood

Edited January 30, 2020 by DanaK

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

I've got Yaz pegged for her new job rebooting Torchwood with a certain renegade Time Agent.

They've mentioned her law enforcement experience enough that I would do with reviving UNIT.

 

[libgirl2]

14 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

They've mentioned her law enforcement experience enough that I would do with reviving UNIT.

 

I could easily see Yaz in some kind of role with UNIT or Torchwood. Kind of like Martha did. 

[Llywela]

55 minutes ago, Prower said:

Spyfall's cinematagrophy was so bad that I wanted to vomit the whole time, so even if there was a good story, I would have missed it.

 

Hyperbole much? 😉 The cinematography this season is fine, and so is most of the storytelling. It may not be to your taste, but Doctor Who has been through far worse slumps than this. I personally hated nearly everything Steven Moffat did, but such is life. Doctor Who is a show that constantly refreshes itself, and not every era will be to the taste of every fan. That's the nature of the beast. The trick is to accept that a particular era simply isn't for you and prepare yourself to ride it out. It will change again soon enough. (I admit I personally had a very hard time accepting and waiting during the worst of Moffat's reign!)

Chibnall's era has its faults, to be sure, and plenty of them, but overall I find it perfectly watchable and entertaining, and after a long run of the show that I couldn't watch at all, I thought it as so awful, I'm grateful to have a fresh new era with lots of things in it to love, even if it isn't perfect.

(...if they could just fix the structural problems with the companions, I'd be so much happier!)

[Eulipian 5k]

1 hour ago, DanaK said:

I think Yaz would be better suited for a rebooted UNIT. I'm guessing if Tosin actually leaves for his new series, I can see him going off with Jack to restart Torchwood

Is UNIT the one with access to the Black Archives? Because Jodi needs to see Gallifrey Falls -No More more than ever. Unless the Master smashed that too. (The also have an extra TARDIS now, they can put it back. lol)

[Sakura12]

Moffat's era made me stop watching Doctor Who, so this is an improvement in my eyes. I like Jodie as the Doctor. The companions I can take or leave though. Or they need to figure out what to do with them. 

[Prower]

2 hours ago, Llywela said:

Hyperbole much? 😉

No. It was actually so bad it made me sick. At least for the first part. For the second part it was just regular-bad. Just as bad as it was last season and has been for the rest of this one. The second part was directed by someone else. So I hope they never let the guy who did the first one anywhere near a set ever again.

2 hours ago, Llywela said:

The cinematography this season is fine, and so is most of the storytelling. It may not be to your taste

The cinematography is objectively shit. It breaks a bunch of rules. Now, you can do that if you have a good reason, but these directors don't. They are just no talent hacks who throw stuff they've seen in movies somewhere against the wall, with no rhyme or reason. I guess that's what happens when you recruit your directors almost exclusively from soap operas.

I guess you can't argue about taste when it comes to the storytelling, but from my perspective DW never had worse in New Who and in none of the classic Who I've seen.

2 hours ago, Llywela said:

It will change again soon enough

Unless it gets cancelled, because the ratings are down. Which they are. Because most people can see that so far everything under Chibnall has been really really bad (except this episode).

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Prower

[libgirl2]

8 minutes ago, Prower said:

Unless it gets cancelled, because the ratings are down. Which they are. Because most people can see that so far everything under Chibnall has been really really bad (except this episode).

 

My husband is a big if not bigger Doctor Who fan than I am. He also goes back to the classic Who. He was saying that maybe its time for Doctor Who to take a rest. 

[HauntedBathroom]

The show doesn't need a rest, the showrunner does.

[Affogato]

article on Tor about the possibility of a whole regeneration cycle of doctors before Hartnell. Interesting. 
 

https://www.tor.com/2020/01/29/doctor-who-may-be-creating-a-12-regeneration-cycle-before-the-first-doctor/?utm_source=exacttarget&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_term=tordotcom-tordotcomnewsletter&utm_content=na-readblog-blogpost&utm_campaign=tordotcom&e=5ecff3082be436bd570ecff34f3c384cb08b4ad2a658e8ec31d5a41b5dda04bd

[DoctorAtomic]

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

I personally hated nearly everything Steven Moffat did, but such is life. Doctor Who is a show that constantly refreshes itself, and not every era will be to the taste of every fan

You could even say the show... puts on glasses... regenerates. 

Thank you and tip your waitress. 

I've always seen the show as more for kids with adult themes. Like something a parent and child can watch together and talk about. I mean, a lot of it is silly. The cops were rhinos. So I can't really scrutinize it like a GOT where I'm essentially the target demo. So you're going to get some speechifying about climate change, but it's not really for you per se. 

I honestly think the show is largely a positive influence that it should run near continuously till the end of time. They had a year break last year and one series with Ten was only 4 movies. Whatever form. The best thing about the show is literally anyone can be the Doctor. And not to be too high minded, but we're all the Doctor. 

Eh, I'd rather Ruth be from so far into the future than the past. Like how we don't know we're actually descended from Cylons. 

or between Two and Three. Or a Valeyard. I really don't like the idea of a whole set of regen Doctors before One. 

I mean there's got to be a point where you get so old you can't remember like past 10000 years. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by DoctorAtomic

[DanaK]

 

 

[marina to]

On 1/30/2020 at 9:45 AM, Eulipian 5k said:

Jack! The Oncoming Snogg, what will we do with you in the #MeToo era?

Why would we need to do anything? Jack has always been consensual. His style of flirting is saying hi, not being crude about someone's body parts. He backs off when he gets a not-interested signal. And despite the Doctor's bitching, he doesn't flirt in serious situations unless it's to lighten a mood. 

[taanja]

On 1/29/2020 at 7:33 PM, Eulipian 5k said:

I don’t know what the writers are doing with the Doctors, nobody here does. What I do know is that the new show runner has produced some very enjoyable, controversial, unnerving Doctor Who, not the least being to give women a crack at being the Doctor. The rest, I erase from the dvr.

 I’ve learned a lot about Classic Who and many suggested ways recent stories can fit the canon and logic of a show with talking space rhinos. The shows are already in the can, so I’ll wait and watch what the writers give us. Gallifrey is not a democracy.

I agree. But I also do not spoil myself-- I just watch and enjoy. 

I discovered Doctor Who in the early 70's and have pretty much enjoyed it since. It did go away for a while and it seems there were movies and such I did not watch - but that's OK.

I have been a faithful watcher since New Who began. Sure I wasn't as fond of Amy Pond and sleepy Rory and especially River Song being their child AND the Doctor's wife (I still go -- say what???) but hey! I went with it.

If I strictly went from what I read here- I would think that Clara was a hated companion but luckily this forum is just the opinions of a few. She lasted as long as she did because she was loved by many.

Anyway, I personally loved this episode. I loved seeing Captain Jack! and this new "other" Doctor intrigues me! Where and how will she fit into the scheme of things???? 

Tune in and find out!

 

[Eulipian 5k]

On 1/28/2020 at 3:19 PM, Lokiberry said:

The theory goes that maybe the Time Lords made Two work for them for awhile before regenerating him and dumping him on Earth. 

Ruth says she had "the type of job you don't apply for and that you can't quit". Sounds like being forced to work, and having to report back, cause they have another "body" for you. Since they specifically used a post-Hartnell TARDIS and added her confusion of the Sonic we might infer it was to place her in a specific regen position vis-a-vis #2 thru #13.

Does anyone know for sure if both or either Lee and Kat are Time Lords or regular Gallifreyans with identical training in whatever service gave Lee the medal Kat used to find him. The Doctor said to Kat "one Time Lord to another" but she never acknowledged that; and we saw neither regenerate.

[tennisgurl]

I dodged spoilers for a week to see this, and it did not disappoint! I swear, it’s been so long since I’ve seen Captain Jack, for one second I thought “wait, did Malcolm Merlyn escape the Arrowverse post crisis and end up here?!?”

[elle]

On 1/30/2020 at 3:52 PM, Affogato said:

article on Tor about the possibility of a whole regeneration cycle of doctors before Hartnell. Interesting. 
 

A quote from the spoiler leading space from the article: And never ever eat pears!

I thought it was apples!

On 1/28/2020 at 11:37 PM, Llywela said:

Oh heck, all over the place. I hang out among Who fans on Tumblr, occasionally poke my toes into the water at the Gallifrey Base forum (don't go there, it is a jungle).

Try here - TARDIS wiki.

He should have, yes, because despite what River may have claimed, the noise the TARDIS makes isn't because the Doctor leaves the parking brake on, it is the sound all TARDIS engines have always made through the entire history of the show!

Here's a Tumblr post going into some detail on how the Ruth!Doctor might slot into the season 6b theory.

Thank you @Llywela.  Very interesting reading!   And, for the record, I always hated that but of conceit for River about the parking brake.  I'd like to think that was handily put down with Rose/Moment speech to the War Doctor about that sound meaning hope to people.

On 1/29/2020 at 3:00 PM, Eulipian 5k said:

Sheesh, you could say that about every single series of Doctor Who; sounds like Ten's seasons. I saw someone criticized the opening of the episode because Ruth was timing the toaster, not making a souffle; (taking no notice that a show about the Chameleon Arch began with a close-up of a watch!).

 I thought she was timing the egg but on rewatch it does seem to be for the toast.  Sometimes you can't get the toaster to get to the level you want with the settings available, so you time it I guess.

I saw the hexagon shaped wall clock and wondered if it would tie back to the TARDIS.  I think they looked more the ones in Jodie's.  I also tried to count the bell chimes at the cathedral when Ruth was sitting there before the Judoon showed up but they seemed to argue into the background music.

On 1/29/2020 at 4:52 PM, DanaK said:

One thing I didn’t like about the episode was the frequent lens flare. At the very least, we got it in the Jack scenes and RuthDoc’s Tardis scenes. I don’t really remember noticing it in previous episodes

Reminded me of the 2009 Star Trek.  Don't know why some directors are so enamoured of it.

On 1/29/2020 at 5:49 PM, Eulipian 5k said:

Many of this season’s stories are reworks of Tennant’s Martha Jones series, the Judoon, the Chameleon Arch, the Master, Captain Jack. Many whined about Jody’s first no nostalgia season. Now the critique is Chibs is stealing from Dr Who, must be desperate. Sometimes you can never please an in-law who’ll sit in the back seat and mitch-n-boan about every decision you make, praying for a divorce.

BBCA ran a mini marathon with Jack centric episodes leading to a reshowing of this episode.  I found it and came in the middle of the second Margaret the Slitheen episode.  I always get a kick out of the "date" with her and Nine.  That lead into the Bad Wolf, The Year That Never Was, and the Stolen Earth season finales.  My main take away from the marathon was, again, that Martha was not given nearly enough credit for what she did during The Year That Never Was.

[tennisgurl]

I swear, you can almost hear Chibnall saying "Oh so you dont think I am connected enough to Who lore do ya? Well have a gander at THIS season huh!? We will bring back ALL! THE! THINGS!" 

I am glad I avoided spoilers, because this episode was just surprise after surprise after surprise! Of course Ruth being an previously unknown version of The Doctor is enough of game changer on its own, but the return Captain Jack was my big "wait what?!?!" moment of the episode! Its truly amazing that they kept this hidden, in a world searching for spoilers with a fine toothed comb, and that he comes back now, years after his last appearance in Who cannon, in the same episode as this Ruth bombshell, is ballsy to the max. As great as it was to see Jack again, and really in his element (space, snogging people, cheesy in a lovable way, dying temporarily) I hope that he pops up again and gets to actually interact with 13, I feel like that would be a blast. So Cybermen huh? The whole gang really is coming back!

I love Ruth Doctor, especially when she showed up in her colorful shirt, I was like "oh shit, its The Doctor!" because, come on, thats a classic Doctor style outfit! Ruth seems to be a pretty tough Doctor as well, I have no clue where she fits into everything. However, I am super excited to find out! 

Its great to see some positive buzz in fandom again, it feels like there is some real forward motion again this season. Its a solid mix of more classic Who elements, as well as the newer stuff. In fact, its kind of trippy how many eras are seemingly colliding. 

[John Potts]

On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2020 at 2:45 AM, Eulipian 5k said:

Creating a new Doctor has obvious paradoxes because the audience saw all 13 iterations with no gaps.

Did we? I've seen Night of the Doctor and while it looks like it's about to become Christopher Eccleston, I don't recall actually seeing his face (I presume because there were rights issues about including him) - I even looked up the clip on YouTube but it cuts out at the vital moment! Granted, it definitely isn't Ruth!Doc either, but there is (or may be) some ambiguity there.

ETA: Oops, not Night of the Doctor, Day of the Doctor. You can see why I might get them confused!

Edited February 4, 2020 by John Potts

[DoctorAtomic]

I think that would be too close. The war doctor looked weary and ready to move on. Ruth implied she was forced into whatever job she was doing. Not that it couldn't happen in the ensuing time between him and Nine, but the fit seems off. 

Two got the regen forced and then presumably banished to earth from some fairly bullying time lords. It's a better thematic fit for her there especially because we've seen her having to deal with a similar type of time lord in this episode. 

TV wise most fans don't remember that far back so you avoid all the fanboy screeching too. 

I really don't care either way. I'm interested where it goes. If they did it pre Nine or wouldn't really make a difference to me. I wasn't around much for the classic era, so I'm interested in that lore, and it seemed like TPTBs have been making some parallels with One since the Thirteen regen. 

 

 

[Eulipian 5k]

6 hours ago, John Potts said:

Did we? I've seen Night of the Doctor and while it looks like it's about to become Christopher Eccleston,

The regeneration in NotD is meant to be the arrival of the War Doctor. They showed us John Hurt turning into the Ninth after they cup-a-souped Gallifrey; Eccleston's same leather coat then went to Tennant .

With all the stuff on YouTube, someone has to upload a video compilation of all the Regenerations and what the next Doctor's costume looked like. Ruth and Jodi need to know!

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

The regeneration in NotD is meant to be the arrival of the War Doctor. They showed us John Hurt turning into the Ninth after they cup-a-souped Gallifrey; Eccleston's same leather coat then went to Tennant .

Yep, McGann's regeneration is into a very young John Hurt, likeness borrowed from a very old production, which is why we only get a glimpse of him in reflection. Hurt very definitely regenerates into Eccleston, there is no gap there.

[Eulipian 5k]

One consequence of thinking Ruth is from the Doctor's future, ie the 14th  and up, is that Lee and Gat would also be from that future and Gallifrey is back, in that future.

Much of Gat & Lee's conversation is ignored by the commenters; Gat congratulated Lee on his funeral and said "did you think I wouldn't be looking for you?" So! Was it a faked death they uncovered, or she's looking for his regeneration?

This episode plays like the US show Treadstone, where  Jason Bourne type assassins are awakened from a brain washing /mind wipe . One of the sleeper agents is married to his handler and didn't know it. Ruth 's "Jackie Chan moment" was lifted right out of The Bourne Identity.

[Jenniferbug]

On 1/28/2020 at 4:44 PM, The Companion said:

I still hold out hope for Danny Pink. Yes, I know I am the only one. 

Danny Pink fan club, party of one.

I will join you at that table. Loved him, hated the Doctor was such an ass to him, and really wanted Clara to decide to stay on Earth with him and they'd become the ancestors of that astronaut who was identical to him (Rupert?). Then Clara stuck around for another season 🙄

On 2/2/2020 at 7:16 PM, elle said:

BBCA ran a mini marathon with Jack centric episodes leading to a reshowing of this episode.  I found it and came in the middle of the second Margaret the Slitheen episode.  I always get a kick out of the "date" with her and Nine.  That lead into the Bad Wolf, The Year That Never Was, and the Stolen Earth season finales.  My main take away from the marathon was, again, that Martha was not given nearly enough credit for what she did during The Year That Never Was.

I didn't like much Martha at first, but I loved her by the end and she definitely does not get credit for how awesome she was, especially during that Year! 

 

I stopped watching regularly a while ago after growing up with Who most of my life. I stuck it out through most of the Moffatt era, but hated River Song a lot and then couldn't handle the specialness of Clara, so stopped. Really wanted to like Capaldi Doctor so tried to watch again, but seriously loathed Missy so again stopped. I'm mostly back because I saw Jack made an appearance and there might be an interesting plot arc, so now I'm caught up and in for now! 

@Llywela, I basically ditto all your posts so thank you for expressing what I'm thinking so well! 

[Kite]

  

On 2/5/2020 at 8:28 AM, Eulipian 5k said:

One consequence of thinking Ruth is from the Doctor's future, ie the 14th  and up, is that Lee and Gat would also be from that future and Gallifrey is back, in that future.

Much of Gat & Lee's conversation is ignored by the commenters; Gat congratulated Lee on his funeral and said "did you think I wouldn't be looking for you?" So! Was it a faked death they uncovered, or she's looking for his regeneration?

If Gallifrey was back in that future, Gat and supposedly future Doctor would know about its destructive past. But they were astonished & horrified. 

I don't understand what you mean by his regeneration? I can't see how it would be interpreted as anything but a faked death? On Gallifrey regeneration is like a bad flu, you're still you.

[Eulipian 5k]

4 hours ago, Kite said:

I don't understand what you mean by his regeneration? I can't see how it would be interpreted as anything but a faked death? On Gallifrey regeneration is like a bad flu, you're still you.

Gat was just at his funeral and then she said “Did you think I would stop looking for you?” So was she saying I knew you weren’t dead or I knew you would regenerate and I came after Lee #2?

My real question is whether Lee or Gat are regenerating Gallifreyan Time Lords

Edited February 8, 2020 by Eulipian 5k
???

[DanaK]

On 1/28/2020 at 12:07 PM, DanaK said:

I previously decided after the season premiere to wait to post the ratings until the finals were in, but I'll post some early ones for this episode

Overnights were 4.21 million viewers, up from 4.04 million from the previous week (Tesla) and 4.19 million the week before that (Orphan 55). There was a soccer game before the show, but it was over and into the analysis by the time the episode started.

The Appreciation Index score was 83, up from 79 from the previous week (the Tesla episode) and 77 from the episode before that (Orphan 55). It was in fact a bit higher than the 2 part season premiere (which both had 82)

Catching up: For overnights, the rank was 6th overall for the night. The consolidated 7-day ratings are 5.573 million viewers, with a rank of 23rd for the week