Tyrion Lannister: Impin' Ain't Easy

[SeanC]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

How would that have even remotely been a fair trial? Tyrion had no way of disproving the charges against him. Cat might've wanted to have a trial to ease her conscience  and she might not have even expected her sister to be so crazy, but the intended consequence was definitely for Tyrion to pay.

I said that in theory, had it been a fair trial, it wouldn't have been murder.  But again, Catelyn didn't want to have a trial; she wanted to keep him as a hostage while things with the Lannisters were sorted out.

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As for why didn't Tyrion set Sansa free, just like people say that Sansa owes Tyrion nothing ( a fact I agree with) the same goes for Tyrion. And he definitely shouldn't have turned his back on his family for someone he barely knew.

Nobody ever said Tyrion's actions don't make sense from his perspective.  We're given plenty of good reason why he's fighting on his family's side in the war, between ordinary societal pressure, his abusive relationship with his father, and his desire for status and recognition.

The point being argued was simply that none of this could be construed as being done with Sansa's wellbeing in mind, because they are not on the same side.  One of the major points of GRRM's storytelling is that the sympathetic characters are not all part of a united Justice League, which is something a lot of his audience have a problem with, even if they notionally understand it.

Edited May 20, 2016 by SeanC

[Gertrude]

A prime example of this is the battle of Blackwater. Most people aren't rooting for Cesei and Joff, but if they lose, then Tyrion loses as well. At this point, there is little reason to be rooting for Stannis and Mel, but Davos is intertwined with them. Who do you root for? They are on opposite sides and one of them has to lose - same as with the Starks and Lannisters. While we may be rooting for Tyrion and we may be rooting for Sansa, there is just no logical reason for them to work together other than the fact that we like them both individually.

[Hecate7]

16 hours ago, Gertrude said:

A prime example of this is the battle of Blackwater. Most people aren't rooting for Cesei and Joff, but if they lose, then Tyrion loses as well. At this point, there is little reason to be rooting for Stannis and Mel, but Davos is intertwined with them. Who do you root for? They are on opposite sides and one of them has to lose - same as with the Starks and Lannisters. While we may be rooting for Tyrion and we may be rooting for Sansa, there is just no logical reason for them to work together other than the fact that we like them both individually.

Some of us find a glimmer of hope in the fact that Tyrion did not abuse his position as Sansa's husband. That might inspire some kindness or mercy on her side. That they were married, and that he seemed to actually care a great deal about what happened to her, inspires a tiny bit of hope that this will be resolved not based on how much they don't owe each other and how tradition dictates feuding families MUST behave, but based on the humanity of Jon, Sansa, and Tyrion, our three most compassionate and thoughtful characters.

[Gertrude]

I guess I'm not sure what you're hoping for, exactly. I think that given time - and I mean more time than I think the books will cover - I think they could have come to an understanding and even fondness for one another. But that's not the story I'm reading, and frankly, not one I want to read at this point. Things are happening and for Sansa and Tyrion to come together would mean a lot of things are stagnant and not moving forward around them. How much time does Sansa need to get over her terror at saying or doing the wrong thing around a Lannister enemy? How long would it take her to forgive his family's part in her family's downfall? I'm not saying it's impossible, but that is some trauma that will take time the books won't give it. And I'm fine with that.

[Oscirus]

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Nobody ever said Tyrion's actions don't make sense from his perspective.  We're given plenty of good reason why he's fighting on his family's side in the war, between ordinary societal pressure, his abusive relationship with his father, and his desire for status and recognition.

There are quite a few people who call Tyrion a prick for not throwing away his family status for her.

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While we may be rooting for Tyrion and we may be rooting for Sansa, there is just no logical reason for them to work together other than the fact that we like them both individually.

Sansa's about to regain control of the North and Tyrion's currently working with the future queen who would need the North's support. Those are enough reasons right there.

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How much time does Sansa need to get over her terror at saying or doing the wrong thing around a Lannister enemy? How long would it take her to forgive his family's part in her family's downfall?

Based on the fact that she's defended/spoke fondly of him twice after she escaped King's landing, I'd say that she's pretty much over his last name.  Maybe not book wise, but definitely show wise.

That being said, if they do remain married, I doubt the relationship would be much more then a partnership of political convenience. The only romance we'll get in this show is likely either Sam and Gilly and Missandei and Grey Worm. Pick your ship.

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

That being said, if they do remain married, I doubt the relationship would be much more then a partnership of political convenience.

I'm pretty sure Sansa and Tyrion would have to remarry rather than revert to their previous marriage, since the non-consummation voided the first marriage and Sansa's marriage to Ramsay was consummated.

On your point, though, I very much doubt Sansa would be in much of a mood to entertain another political marriage, given what happened with Tyrion the first time around and with Ramsay. If she marries again, and that's a very big if, it will be for love.

As for Tyrion, in my opinion Tyrion hated his political marriage to Sansa and would balk at any more sham marriages, which is what a "partnership of political convenience" would amount to for him. He was very unhappy in the books that his marriage to Sansa was a sham, even though he had Shae; a more practical man would have shrugged it off and accepted it as a sham while seeking pleasure elsewhere, but Tyrion hated that the marriage was fake and hated Sansa for being "false" by ditching him even though he knew intellectually he had no right to expect loyalty from her. That's not the mindset of someone ready for a "partnership of political convenience." In the show, he's not bitter or resentful towards Sansa, but he's very unhappy that his wife despises him (albeit for what he seems to believe are very good reasons), something that wouldn't trouble someone who truly accepted the notion of a "partnership of political convenience." TV Tyrion is also conflicted about sleeping with Shae while married to Sansa, since his wife despising him is a reason he keeps putting Shae off (which seems to fuel Shae's resentment and paranoia), and that's not the attitude of someone who's able to divorce the concept of marriage from love/sex, which is what he would need to do in a purely political marriage.

Bottom line, Tyrion to me seems very unlikely to accept a purely political marriage, especially after what happened with Sansa. While I wouldn't go so far as to say that he was forced to marry Sansa in either the books or the show, I don't think he ever would have made a purely political marriage had Tywin not pressured him to do it, and with Tywin out of the picture, he won't have to make that choice again. When Tyrion has been in love he's been in love with low-status girls who loved him from the get-go or who at least made a convincing show of it. Even assuming that Tyrion were willing to make a purely political match again, something I think is very unlikely, I don't think it would be with Sansa: Sansa couldn't disguise her disgust towards Tyrion, and Tyrion, who desperately needs the illusion of being loved, would never forget that, even if in the show he didn't seem to resent her for it at all.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Eyes High

[Hecate7]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I'm pretty sure Sansa and Tyrion would have to remarry rather than revert to their previous marriage, since the non-consummation voided the first  Even assuming that Tyrion were willing to make a purely political match again, something I think is very unlikely, I don't think it would be with Sansa: Sansa couldn't disguise her disgust towards Tyrion, and Tyrion, who desperately needs the illusion of being loved, would never forget that, even if in the show he didn't seem to resent her for it at all.

 

He didn't resent her for it in the books, either. He resented himself. He is his own to resent so I don't see the problem there. Tyrion has changed, both in the books and on the show. On the show, he's over sex, and over wanting to be loved or any of that. He's over expectations, and a purely political marriage would be the only kind he'd ever go for. He never expected to be loved inside the bounds of marriage anyway.

In the books, Tyrion may still yearn for love and burn because of rejection, but he will never, ever believe he is loved or desired, no matter how hard the other party works to convince him. So there, too, he is fit only for a political marriage. He certainly can't marry for love--he knows no one could ever love him. And frankly he is correct. No one ever did, with the possible exceptions of Tysha and Jaime. Jaime's love has already been exploded in Tyrion's mind, and Tysha's will probably follow soon as well.

Unlike Tyrion, Sansa could make a love match. But I suspect that she will heroically give up that wish, and marry instead for the good of the realm. If it meant swelling the ranks of their armies, vanquishing the Lannisters, and retaking Winterfell, I think Sansa would happily remarry Tyrion. Although many fans ascribe all kinds of negative emotions to her where Tyrion is concerned, they aren't really there in the books or on the show. No, she's not interested in him sexually nor does she have any kind of crush on him, but that's not the same as hating him. She doesn't hate him. Neither one of them actually believes in "falling in love" anymore, but both care more than ever about world politics and their place in it, and both are willing to sacrifice more for it than they ever were before.

[Spartan Girl]

Yeah, I don't think Sansa and Tyrion are getting back together in the books or show.

I know this sounds pretty far fetched, but does anyone think there's even the smallest possibility that Tyrion and Dany may ever hook up? Personally I like their professional working relationship so far, but with D and D, anything seems to go...

[Oscirus]

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As for Tyrion, in my opinion Tyrion hated his political marriage to Sansa and would balk at any more sham marriages, which is what a "partnership of political convenience" would amount to for him.

He hated the marriage to Sansa because he was tired of her getting tortured by that point. He wasn't against the institution of political marriage, hell, he had just did the same thing to his niece not too long before that.

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Bottom line, Tyrion to me seems very unlikely to accept a purely political marriage, especially after what happened with Sansa. While I wouldn't go so far as to say that he was forced to marry Sansa in either the books or the show, I don't think he ever would have made a purely political marriage had Tywin not pressured him to do it, and with Tywin out of the picture, he won't have to make that choice again. When Tyrion has been in love he's been in love with low-status girls who loved him from the get-go or who at least made a convincing show of it.

Both of Tyrion's affairs happened before he came into power, while his affair with Shae was extended even after he became the hand and other various parts of the small council, ultimately he chose the game over love. Tyrion knows political marriages are part of the game and if such a marriage is needed to help out Dany, I'm pretty sure he'll gladly go through with it.

As for proof, on the show, Tyrion's first private talk with Dany shows his support of political marriages.

[Eyes High]

7 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I know this sounds pretty far fetched, but does anyone think there's even the smallest possibility that Tyrion and Dany may ever hook up? Personally I like their professional working relationship so far, but with D and D, anything seems to go...

I didn't get any vibes from their 5x08 meeting; Tyrion was speaking to Dany very much "man to man," which is unusual for the show version of the character at least in speaking with women.

Just generally about Tyrion in the show, I think we can all agree that the TV version and the book versions of the characters are pretty different at this point. I think TV Tyrion isn't so much Book Tyrion as an alternate universe Tyrion. If Book Tyrion looked like this instead of this, he'd probably be a nicer guy, too. As it is, TV Tyrion lacks Book Tyrion's "edge": that nasty, spiteful, and occasionally truly vicious side of Book Tyrion's personality. Even when TV Tyrion is doing or saying the exact same shit as Book Tyrion, it doesn't come off as nasty or vicious. I think that's because Peter Dinklage has been playing TV Tyrion with a lot of warmth and humanity; in Season 1, I saw glimmers of Book Tyrion's malevolent side in TV Tyrion's performance, but as of Season 2, those glimmers had disappeared, at least to me.

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As for proof, on the show, Tyrion's first private talk with Dany shows his support of political marriages.

Tyrion believes in the value of political marriage in the abstract, but that doesn't mean he'd want one himself. In true Tywin fashion, who thrust unwanted marriages on his children for the supposed good of the family while never deigning to remarry himself, Tyrion heartily supports the idea of purely political marriage...for other people.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Eyes High

[Hecate7]

I don't think Tyrion would marry again for personal reasons, but if marrying Sansa or Dany would save lives or restore harmony to the realm, he would do it.

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Tyrion believes in the value of political marriage in the abstract, but that doesn't mean he'd want one himself

Book Tyrion probably does see it that way at this point, but Show Tyrion has evolved way past that. It's not about what he wants himself. It's about what will help. I keep seeing foreshadowing in the books of Tyrion riding Viserion and possibly becoming Dany's consort, but maybe that's not where this is going.

[Umbelina]

I always had hopes that the whore Arya encounters who made people marry her before sex was Tyrion's long lost fiance/wife, and he'd find her.  Maybe in the books, he actually will?

[Spartan Girl]

Last night's scene with Tyrion and Dany sums up what I love about their blossoming working relationship.  Tyrion loved Shae, he did care about Sansa (and did have an iota of respect for everything she endured), but Dany is the first woman he has wholeheartedly respected.  She's a strong yet flawed warrior queen who has the potential for greatness, but he isn't afraid to be completely honest with her if he thinks she's heading in the wrong direction.  

She, in turn, is one of the few people that has ever seen past the fact that he's a dwarf.  She realized his abilities and potential, and by making him the Hand of the Queen, she is giving him the recognition he deserved.

[Eyes High]

The Vulture.com review of 6x10 echoed my impression that Tyrion already appears to be in love with Dany. If Jon/Sansa ever becomes a thing, and if Dany contemplates a marriage alliance with Jon upon returning to Westeros, that whole set of relationships is going to get gloriously messy.

[Oscirus]

I doubt it.  For Tyrion the game will always come first. If Dany has to marry Jon for the game to continue then so be it.

[sjohnson]

For me the bottom line on Tyrion as a human being is his open belief that Theon should be dead, even as he goes unscathed for murdering a lover and a father. The whole notion that Theon alone of all the people in this universe should ignore the mores and customs of his society and put his captor's son above his own father, because Robb was effectively his brother...does seem a little selective. If Balon Greyjoy had the sense to support Theon in a truly significant strategic holding, instead of sacrificing all those bands in dispersed minor targets, he would have been a winner and not been so disrespected by Tyrion i think. Nothing quite like a dwarf looking down on someone for a physical deformity. 

[Constantinople]

I still don't understand why Tyrion was always referred to as Lord Tyrion, even when his father was alive

[paigow]

On 6/19/2017 at 0:17 AM, Constantinople said:

I still don't understand why Tyrion was always referred to as Lord Tyrion, even when his father was alive

When Ned was still alive, what title did Robb have?

[glowbug]

In England, which is what the Seven Kingdoms is loosely based on, the children of titled nobility are referred to as lords and ladies. The younger son of a peer would be called "Lord [First Name]" so Tyrion would be Lord Tyrion. The eldest son and heir would actually use their father's highest ranking courtesy title and would be called "Lord [Place Name of courtesy title]". I've also seen the eldest son called "Lord [Last Name]" (e.g. Lord Stark) while the younger son is still "Lord [First Name]" (e.g. Lord Brandon). What GRRM has chosen to do in terms of styles of address is similar to how things are done in England (and since it's fantasy he can take a lot of liberties) so I don't see the issue personally. 

[Francie]

From an episode thread:

You can argue that Tyrion sending Myrcella to Dorne put her in danger and eventually led to her death, though I would still argue she was perfectly safe there (or as safe as you can be anywhere in GOT) until other events happened.

And I would argue that Dorne was a ticking time bomb.  We'll have to end that stale mate with an "agree to disagree." 

 I was refuting the argument made by others that Tyrion's "pride" in refusing to take the plea bargain and demanding trial by combat, made him responsible for Myrcella's death.  I think that is nonsense, as an innocent man have every right to defend his innocence.  

I don't know who is arguing that. I've explained why I hold him responsible. Perhaps you should quote that post and respond directly to it, and not to me.

I do think if one is trying to work backwards from a "Cersei is responsible for Myrcella's death because she got Oberyn killed," that argument unravels for 3 reasons that break that chain of logic: 1) Oberyn killed himself, both by gloating over the Mountain's death and by offering to champion Tyrion in the first place; and 2) Tyrion only had to opt for a trial by combat only after he -- and this was someone else's point -- pridefully and angrily felt the need to lash out at the crowd and his father for embarrassing him.  And even that only happened because 3) Shae revealed secrets that did, in fact, embarrass him.  So putting that entirely on Cersei, to the extent that is occurring, ignores all these other actors. 

So I think you may be reacting to someone nullifying that Cersei should be held responsible for Myrcella's death because she piled on the evidence in regard to Tyrion as opposed to someone affirmatively arguing that Tyrion caused Myrcella's death by demanding a trial by combat. 

The one thing I will say in contradiction to your comment -- I think it's important to be clear that Cersei didn't intend to railroad a man she thought was innocent of a crime.  She was the district attorney in this situation, and she gathered evidence to convict the man she thought did the crime.  The vast majority of the evidence she put on was legitimate.  He did make the threats he did. He did take into his possession all of Pycelle's poisons.  She didn't force Pycelle to say (and I'm laughing as I type this) that Joffrey was the greatest child ever put on this planet. Pycelle had his own ax to grind against Tyrion.  That was part of what was interesting about the trial -- Tyrion's own choices, his use of power, and his barbed tongue were being held against him.  Tyrion recognizes that -- that he, in large part, created the bed in which he was now lying. 

[Spartan Girl]

Tyrion probably does share some responsibility for Myrcella, but Tommen? Nope. Cersei drove her own son to suicide and refuses to take any responsibility for it, same as everything.

Him lurking outside the room during boatsex was troubling, but I really still do not see him becoming some jealous third wheel to Jon/Dany. He was shipping them two days ago, and regardless of whatever feelings he has for Dany, he is savvy enough to know he's only one of many guys that fell in love with her with zero chance in hell for marriage.

Maybe his reaction was supposed to be something more like, "Seriously?! We're going to war with the Night King and you guys decide to fuck now?" Of course this is the same guy that got Shay when he was going off to battle, so that doesn't make sense either. 

[Holmbo]

I'm really happy about Tyrion's portrayal in ep 2. And it gives me hope that he's gonna get a satisfying ending. I don't necessarily mean a happy one. But he won't be just a tack on to Jon and Dany's sorry.

[Constantinople]

Tyrion sure seems to try harder when it comes to Lannister related matters

• He was a much better Hand for Joffrey than he's been for Daenerys
• He bends over backwards to help out Cersei, to the point of risking a Queen-in-Exile should his escape plan have worked
• His battle plan in Season 7 was focused on capturing Casterly Rock

[Eyes High]

Tyrion ending up king for all intents and purposes with Bran as his puppet reminded me of this conversation between Tywin and Tyrion in 3x10:

Tyrion: You just sent the most powerful man in Westeros to bed without his supper.

Tywin: You're a fool if you believe he's the most powerful man in Westeros.

Tyrion: A treasonous statement. Joffrey is king.

Tywin: You really think a crown gives you power?

And Tyrion ends up as Tywin 2.0, custodian of the Lannister legacy and Hand to a king who's pretty much checked out (Aerys in Tywin's case, Bran in Tyrion's).

[Advance35]

Had to come in and give love to PD.  He has been one of the pro's keeping this ship afloat for years.  

Tyrion has a way of wheeling and dealing that's more palatable then Tywin and Cersei, and ultimately, even more effective.   

I like that he has a firm friendship with Jon Snow and plans to visit him at some point.   You also can't convince me he won't be stopping by Winterfell to check on how a certain newly crowned Queen is handling things. lol 🙂

When Sansa was the one that didn't immediately say "Aye" when he put Bran forward as King PD's face was priceless.  You could just hear him thinking, in a wary voice "Sansa????" lol

I hated Cersei and Jamie too in all honesty, but damned if PD didn't break my heart when he found their bodies.

So glad he got a happy ending.

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Had to come in and give love to PD.  He has been one of the pro's keeping this ship afloat for years.  

Tyrion has a way of wheeling and dealing that's more palatable then Tywin and Cersei, and ultimately, even more effective.   

I like that he has a firm friendship with Jon Snow and plans to visit him at some point.  

I dunno. I mean, even assuming Jon going to the NW was Bran’s idea and not Tyrion’s (and I have my doubts about that one), Tyrion coldly and deliberately manipulated Jon to kill Dany. Tyrion knows it, too: “What I did”/“What we did.”

It was chilling watching Tyrion do it, too. Even when he was trying to get Jon on board as one of Dany’s allies, Tyrion has never actually worked Jon over like that, according him at least that basic respect. Tyrion did just that in 8x06, though, systematically wearing Jon down and bringing up his sisters as the coup de grace. Poor, dumb Jon was helpless to do anything about it.

Everyone pined for the return of Tyrion as a player, and they got it in 8x06. He played everyone like a fiddle. He got Jon to get rid of Dany and be stuck with the blame for it. He got the Lannister-hating lords and ladies of Westeros to install him as their effective ruler behind a puppet king (whom Tyrion knew very well would be a puppet, since Bran told him “Mostly I live in the past”) and made them think it was their idea. He supported (or may even have proposed) packing Jon off to the NW, thus eliminating him as a threat to his power. He created a small council made up of a good natured yes man, a crony who has always proven loyal to him as long as he paid up , and a woman madly in love with his brother (with a bonus kingsguard who has also proven 100% loyal to Tyrion in the past). 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Eyes High

[Spartan Girl]

3 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I hated Cersei and Jamie too in all honesty, but damned if PD didn't break my heart when he found their bodies.

Yeah, that part got me just because of Peter's acting.  But I'm still annoyed that he went out of his way to vouch for Cersei after everything she's done to him and everyone else.  Never thought I'd start to prefer the darker more vengeful book Tyrion...

Whatever, I still love Peter.

[Constantinople]

While watching some of Season 2 last night it occurred to me that Tyrion was such a successful Hand then because he could compete against his family while simultaneously serving them and showing them how much they needed him.

But that didn't apply when he served as Dany's Hand. He was always trying to find his brother and sister an out, and only really applied himself to capturing his family home, Casterly Rock.

[Francie]

I vote to re-name this thread: Tyrion Lannister: He took a honeycomb and a jackass into a brothel...

[RobertDeSneero]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

While watching some of Season 2 last night it occurred to me that Tyrion was such a successful Hand then because he could compete against his family while simultaneously serving them and showing them how much they needed him.

But that didn't apply when he served as Dany's Hand. He was always trying to find his brother and sister an out, and only really applied himself to capturing his family home, Casterly Rock.

Tyrion seemed mostly fine so long as his duties didn't involve military strategy.  He had one useful trick at Blackwater and fancied himself a general.

[Constantinople]

26 minutes ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Tyrion seemed mostly fine so long as his duties didn't involve military strategy.  He had one useful trick at Blackwater and fancied himself a general.

So you're saying Tyrion isn't a war time consigliere?

[Eyes High]

19 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

So you're saying Tyrion isn't a war time consigliere?

Ha!

I think Tyrion can be plenty ruthless when he wants to be, but acting as Dany's Hand, he was hamstrung by a desire to protect his sister (Dany's chief enemy) and by a desire to ensure that Dany didn't use her dragons. He definitely didn't want her to use them on civilians, but I don't think he wanted her to use them at all. He wasn't thrilled at the carnage after 7x04, and he definitely wasn't thrilled when Dany chose dragonfire as an execution method with the Tarlys.

There's really not much he could do as a wartime Hand given those constraints, so instead he took a series of half-measures that failed miserably. Even if he weren't going up against his own sister, I think his desire to keep the dragons out of the field would have crippled Dany's campaign regardless. Really, if he had such a big problem with Dany's WMDs, maybe he shouldn't have been her Hand in the first place.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Eyes High

[Constantinople]

I guess we'll never find out if Tyrion acquired his own vineyard.

[Umbelina]

I still think Tyrion is 1/2 Targ.  The Dragons didn't try to kill him or eat him even though starving, and the timing is right for him not being Tywin's kid.  This video kind of covers why it's very possible he's Aery's child.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Umbelina

[PatsyandEddie]

Aerys apparently did have a thing for Joanna Lannister who rejected his advances. However, this was a man known to rape his own wife repeatedly, so it’s possible that something could  have happened without Tywin’s knowledge. 

[Eyes High]

On 5/27/2019 at 2:58 AM, Constantinople said:

I guess we'll never find out if Tyrion acquired his own vineyard.

It sounds like Bran has in mind a lifetime appointment for Tyrion, while the vineyard plan seemed like more of a retirement gig. 

On 5/28/2019 at 10:05 PM, Umbelina said:

I still think Tyrion is 1/2 Targ.  The Dragons didn't try to kill him or eat him even though starving, and the timing is right for him not being Tywin's kid.  This video kind of covers why it's very possible he's Aery's child.

It's possible that Tyrion is half-Targ but that D&D never got into it because it has no effect on his endgame as Bran's Hand. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Eyes High

[slf]

On 5/28/2019 at 9:05 PM, Umbelina said:

I still think Tyrion is 1/2 Targ.  The Dragons didn't try to kill him or eat him even though starving, and the timing is right for him not being Tywin's kid.  This video kind of covers why it's very possible he's Aery's child.

TBH, I never liked that theory. There's enough rape as it is. And it kind of undermines the irony that Tyrion was the most like Tywin (as Genna said).

[Eyes High]

31 minutes ago, slf said:

TBH, I never liked that theory. There's enough rape as it is. And it kind of undermines the irony that Tyrion was the most like Tywin (as Genna said).

I wish GRRM would either make Tyrion being half-Targ canon or shut it down as a theory definitively once and for all in interviews or in one of the associate Westeros histories (something he's been happy to do with other fan theories). Instead he keeps teasing fans, most recently by introducing yet another Targ in Fire and Blood with mismatched eyes (one green and one violet). Either shit or get off the pot, dude.

GRRM made a mysterious comment on his blog years ago about Tyrion flying (or words to that effect). If you need Valyrian blood to fly a dragon (and to be fair that's not at all established), I could see GRRM making Tyrion half-Targ just so he could get the opportunity to ride a dragon.

My main argument against Tyrion being half-Targ was that I didn't see the storyline point of it; as a bastard, he would have no claim, and he'd have no way of truly knowing or proving it either way (with all the involved parties like Aerys and Joanna long dead). With Jon's legitimacy and true parentage in the show ultimately amounting to very little and only serving to drive a wedge between him and Dany, though, I guess anything's possible. Maybe GRRM couldn't resist the idea of the person carrying on the Lannister legacy Tywin was so obsessed with not actually being Tywin's son.

It would be pretty funny if after the inevitable Targ-related carnage and infighting over claims past ADWD involving (f)Aegon, Dany and I imagine eventually Jon, half-Targ Tyrion managed to sneak past everyone and end up in a position of power (apart from the distant Targ descendants like the Baratheon bastards, Brienne, Brown Ben Plumm, etc.).

Edited May 31, 2019 by Eyes High

[slf]

44 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM made a mysterious comment on his blog years ago about Tyrion flying (or words to that effect). If you need Valyrian blood to fly a dragon (and to be fair that's not at all established), I could see GRRM making Tyrion half-Targ just so he could get the opportunity to ride a dragon.

He said in an interview that a dragonrider doesn't need to have Valyrian blood. So thankfully, if Tyrion ever does ride a dragon it won't mean he's a Targ.

Also, I just hate the idea of yet another person with a secret lineage. It's been done in the book plenty enough times.

Edited May 31, 2019 by slf

[TarotQueen]

I don't like the Tyrion is a Targ theory either.  I know it isn't their section, but I'd find the idea of the Lannister twins being Aerys' more interesting:  a genetic explanation for both their incest and Cersei's overall fucked uppedness as a person, more symmetry with Tywin (despising his only real son while he fawns over someone else's) and even Joanna's shock at whatever touching she found her young kids doing with each other (horrible not just because they are sister and brother, but because she knows it expresses the truth of their heritage and the pain that represents for her) etc.  

I just hope we still get a full set of books to know for sure though.