Zalyn

"Be awesome. Be Lagertha Awesome." In rewatching the battle scene, I keep wanting to read Ecbert as watching the battlefield to figure out if Ragnar is the idiot who rushed ahead and got trapped, or the smart one who hung back because he sensed it was a trap. Also, I really liked Porunn's "freewoman baptism" scene; like many such scenes, it's very simple in presentation yet carries a weight of meaning. I hope we get to see more of her as a character (and not just as scenery).

Yeah, that reining in just hasn't been happening this episode, at least not to Ragnar. I really like how easily she has stepped up to be an equal to Horik and Ragnar in terms of authority and decisiveness.

I was assuming a platonic friendship, but Travis Fimmel just couldn't help adding a little more subtext this past episode. He just clung to Athelstan's thigh a bit longer than needed. It was quite amusing. Edit: Also the mule walk with his arm around Athelstan - Fimmel communicates so much just in how he touches people.

The slash was strong in this ep. I can't help but think it's intentional to show appreciation for the fans who enjoy the eye-fuckfest; there is just so much longing in all their interactions. King Ecbert's "I can't lose you, Athelstan" speech started it all, and Ragnar's thigh-grab-and-cling bookended it. Both he and Ragnar had this hunger/desperation... for what, it's not clear. I also suspect that Ragnar would have been a lot less nice if Athelstan had shown signs of being mistreated. I cracked up at Princess Bangers&Mash; she did exactly what someone predicted last week in "evaluating" the Viking lineup. Couldn't tell if the Viking dudes were intrigued or disturbed; kudos to the actors for keeping straight faces, or in Ecbert's case, his "dawning horror/amusement" face. Same here on Rollo - I had just read up about him last week and was all, "Noooo! Rollooooo!" It's tough - Ragnar's clearly the hero, but Rollo is a good guy (mmm caramel center) trying to do the right thing. I thought during the episode that he might have stayed with the English and started a story from there, but apparently not. He gets to be ghastly white and sick until his leg heals. Just can't get a break... I felt similarly suspicious. I admit to a bias against her, but she just oozed "crafty wimmez politics" when she freed Porunn so suddenly after commenting on Lagertha. Not only does that help get Bjorn to hate her a little less (just a little), but it may in the future affect where Porunn puts her loyalties. She's plotting... Overall, great episode. Lots of great character interactions, plot moved along, and Ecbert's Hot Tub Planning Machine!

Thanks for the timeline correction (one thing I liked about TWoP was rigorous dates and math put up as references for timelines, and so having good numbers up will be helpful for when the child comes up again). About whether Oliver would have been expected to marry the mother of his child - perhaps by 2007 social norms he wouldn't have been required to, but I have a feeling that issues of family inheritance would make it very difficult for the Queen family legacy to be passed on smoothly, especially if it were a boy child. There is still a tendency towards male primogeniture - the eldest son inherits the name and the franchise. So if the child were a boy and visibly connected to Oliver, that child could probably sue for inheritance of the family estate later on, making it impossible for a "legitimate" heir to claim it. Heck, even without gender involved, the eldest child arguably has a claim in the style of Esau and Jacob. It would have been different if Oliver already had been married with an heir and this were a younger "bastard" child. But Moira, while being calculating, does have a reasonable concern for the future of the Queen family and estate that goes beyond individual emotional virtue.

Yay new thread! Hopefully it's okay to talk about non-romantic/non-sexual relationships a bit? I also noticed some good Sin and Thea interactions, and I see some good potential for an interesting relationship-friendship between them. They have some background in common, but are contrasting enough to where there are great opportunities for fun dialogue. Also, they can keep momentum going on Roy's story since they're both concerned about his well-being. "Seeing Red" confirmed to me that Diggle, like chocolate, goes with everyone. He just makes everyone better; but I worry that he'll just be used as a sounding board and won't get to develop himself independently. I'll just keep crossing my fingers and hope there. I definitely love the chemistry between Felicity and Oliver as people, but I agree that this is just not a good time for them (or any romance, frankly). In fact, I'm beginning to think this show is anti-romance; so many relationships end up in the most cynical sort of place. And while Thea and Roy had some good potential in terms of being in a place of mutual attraction, I really don't see anyone else there because everything, not just Oliver, is toxic right now, as has been mentioned. I admit, I'm a slo-mance type who likes to see a relationship be earned and built over time together.

While watching "Seeing Red," I'm feeling like Thea is starting to emulate Moira; there were some scenes where she really seemed like her mother in how she spoke and carried herself. I wonder if it's intentional acting by Willa (which would be really cool) or just coincidence.

You know that would definitely mean the end of Sara, right? Although it would be funny if she could somehow interact with Cassidy!Ruby... Because the girl didn't want money. In fact, she seemed like a decent sort of person overall (which bodes well for Connor(?)). Also, when a rich, powerful person offers you an ungodly sum of money to go away, it's not wise to try to haggle since they could just as easily hire a hitman or arrange an "accident." I'm rewatching the ep now, but was there anything to establish that Moira didn't ever go visit? I disagree that it would have been better for Moira to make/allow Oliver to be a father; while some unexpected parents do grow up and develop character, given that even two years after, Oliver couldn't even be respectful to sisters, I doubt he would have actually matured at all. Moira, being in the 1%, very likely has seen how irresponsible, spoiled rich boys handle any problems they make - they pay people off and shirk responsibility, to the detriment of those they owe. She also certainly knows how rampant cheating is, especially among the rich men in the group - it's easy, it's tempting, even when there is a happy marriage. If Oliver were forced to marry that girl, he would have been even worse because he clearly didn't love (or even like, I surmise) her. That would not have been a good family for the child to have grown up in by any means. I'm going to miss Moira, because as ruthless as she was, she impressed me with her solution drawn from "mother's logic" or even an ethic of care (see feminist theory) - she ensured that the teen mother and child would live comfortably the rest of their lives and she kept her son from that situation (both to protect him and to protect them from him). I've seen so many similar stories handled by a patriarch that involved direct violence or harm, so this was a nice change of pace (even if one may disagree with her decision). Speaking of... The kid would be about six years old now... which makes him potential Slade!Bait. Could Slade know about Oliver's kid and plan to torture Oliver with him/her? Slade did mention that one more has to die...

What a grand lady. She even won Slade over enough to earn the sword... and a tear. *salutes*

I agree that there is great strategic value to the knowledge Athelstan has. But strategic value isn't mutually exclusive to curiosity; another Viking could easily just go with greater might to overpower and smash other countrie, but Ragnar wants to engage smartly. He also is willing to participate in the customs of England to the extent that it gives him more opportunities to learn about them or to bide time for when they have an advantage. The little things he does, like observing when the English bow and then copying them, indicate an appreciation for understanding others, even if it a means to conquest. Likewise, Ecbert wouldn't just dismiss another custom or outlook because it's done by Pagans; he actually is willing to consider whether another perspective is valuable or allows for better justice. As someone who is cross-cultural, I really appreciate seeing leaders doing that, and I think it's reasonable to show in this historical context.

Martin Sheen using his Jed Bartlett voice to argue against mandatory minimums: I swear, he could use his Bartlett voice to suggest I try eating dirt and I would probably consider it. #StillMyPresident (we didn't have a "cast in other roles" thread yet - I can start one, but we need a good subtitle for it)

Great analysis of Ragnar in the context of his society. I agree that there are a lot of similarities between Ragnar and Ecbert; they are both visionaries who question how things are done now while yearning for something more. Athelstan serves as both a grounding force and an inspirational one - a true priest - who doesn't demand they seek his approval, but who nonetheless makes them crave it. Whoa, good find! (BSG fan) This is one thing I find that I enjoy about watching/reading historical fiction: it inspires me to go look up and learn about the characters referenced to learn the real history about them. I think that if the audience is willing to do that independent research, these types of media can be awesome learning opportunities. I'm only now realizing how important Ragnar was as a figure in that history.

I am now imagining a roomful of people dropping trou and grabbing their swords (or "swords") when RagnarLothbrok walks into the room. It's like a Game of Thrones crossover! I've started rewatching, and it's still not clear who was more interested in bringing Aethelstan in for a threesome - Lagertha or Ragnar. It was such a great scene to offer a big contrast to Christianity regarding sexual tastes.

I actually liked how awkward and staged the wedding was; it added to the idea that everyone knows Joffrey is a terrible king, but they have to go through the motions in the most perfectly formal way and hope he doesn't notice that everyone loathes him (even Tywin). And the side interactions had this feeling of being at a terrible party where people are desperately trying to find some way to interact with someone bearable for a few minutes. Everyone was on pins and needles, hoping that they could just finish this and get the hell out of there before Joffrey did another crazy, but alas. Oberyn and Loras checking each other out was awesome. Oberyn and Ellaria were terrific throughout the ep, especially with the twist of Oberyn "conscripting" the man at the brothel. They were so matter-of-fact about being sexually open - a nice contrast to most of the interactions before. (I do agree that GRRM's writing gets ponderous at times, but that's a longer conversation for another time)

"You know Hodor, Jon Snow." Valar Hodoris.

She serves as a nice foil to the main crew, especially the women. Even Siggy looks diligent and hard working in comparison. Of course, there are plenty of cases where a woman was valued because she could pop out sons and look pretty, even when there wasn't much else. I am a bit sad that her wit and intelligence didn't get focused on once she got with Ragnar; I was hoping when she was introduced that she would be a crafty and smart woman in the group.

I wonder if because Renly isn't interested in women, he didn't apply personal sexual aesthetics to Brienne, and thus didn't insult her the way all of the other men did. As was mentioned, that lack of contempt (and practicality in recognizing her fighting ability) seems like honor, virtue, and nobility to a person who had been treated terribly their whole life. So I could see Brienne having a "virtue crush" - imprinting on Renly as someone who looks and plays the benevolent ruler worthy of respect and loyalty - and then developing feelings naturally over time towards Renly the icon. Meanwhile, Jaime's continued insistence on insulting her kind of resembles the boy who keeps cruelly teasing a girl he actually likes. There is a phenomenon noted by Dan Savage where a guy who is actually into unconventionally attractive women (like curvier women) will insult them when he's around his buddies to keep up appearances because that's what you're supposed to do. There is a nice ambiguity to his feelings on the matter, and with his emasculation from the loss of his sword hand (putting him into a similar category as Brienne, just in a worse way), it'll be interesting to see if his perspective changes.

Besides, she's got huuuge... tracts of land... that are "open" to many. Princess Kwenthrith's also practicing moderation - she abstains from meat at the dinner table so she can enjoy some in the bedchamber *rimshot*. The "good luck" by King Ecbert was priceless.

Powerful episode. I have a thing for interlaced montages, so the two weddings scene was great to watch. Stories where two different religions and cultures are juxtaposed always draw me in (maybe because I grew up in a mixed household). What is interesting is not just the differences in tone (one political, one personal), but also the similarities - rings, for example - just rearranged and used differently. The execution scene was done so well. In fact, all of these types of scenes - like the sacrifices last season - manage to balance grimness, enough blood to make it visceral, but most of all, reverence for death. For all the vikings in the show love to brawl and engage in acts of excessive violence (drunk Ragnar shooting arrows at his friend), when weighty events like sacrifices and executions happen, it's srsbzns face for everyone. In a way, this wasn't vengeance via killing; it was a trial/ordeal of Jarl Borg. Even though what he did was terrible and everyone there hated him, they were giving him a chance to enter Valhalla if he only could muster up enough strength of will. I don't know how historically accurate it is, but it is interesting to make us reflect on the reasons and intentions we have when we punish people - what are we really trying to accomplish? In this case, it is certainly a harder way to get to Valhalla than the standard "get stabbed on the battlefield," but it is still a way for a warrior in this culture to redeem himself. I'm just going to pretend that's what Lagertha was thinking as she was standing there so awesomely.

Travis Fimmel always looks like he's trying to eyefuck anyone/anything he's looking at. I still haven't decided whether it supports or distracts from Ragnar as a character, but it certainly gives lots of captionable scenes.

That's exactly the feeling I've had about Laurel. In her defense, even "dark" blackmailers need hugs... The first character who comes to mind is Lauren Reed from Alias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Reed).%C2'> The fans HATED her. She was set up in all the wrong ways - unlikeable, powerful daddy, boyfriend stealer, snooty to the heroine - and so they gave up and made her into a villain. She then got to make out with David Anders and be Evil McEvilPants for an arc, so it couldn't have been that bad. One thing I've noticed is that fans have had more influence on the development and progression of shows in recent years; I feel that the Alias case was a result of vocal fan feedback through sites like TWoP. Earlier shows, like Buffy would probably have been very different in such a climate; Riley wasn't popular, sure. But I don't think he was meant to stick around. Dawn, on the other hand, would have been 86'd really early on because she started out so annoying. This is why I'm really trying to be measured about my criticisms of the Laurel character. It's been very easy for fans to contribute to an overall feeling of loathing for a particular character (and those characters tend to be female - a troubling symptom), and the reaction to nix them is much faster now than before. I think it's great for fans to have input on shows, but the shows should also be allowed to develop creatively lest all good showrunners get discouraged and quit because they can't write their shows. As to whether the Arrow people will do it - the problem is that they're trapped by canon. And so to get rid of Laurel permanently would mean having to take a pretty big stand and throw canon out the window on that. I'm not sure if they will take that risk so boldly.

There is a definite problem of legitimacy for Laurel on the show, and this last episode emphasized it. For example, as writersblock51 said: Additionally, even her decision to hug Oliver and accept him was not her decision - she agreed with what her dad told her (awesomely, because he's awesome). So that entire arc from discovery of Arrow/Oliver to accepting him wasn't hers; it was her mirroring or responding to other people's agency. It's hard for me to connect with her because of this; she's not a person, she's an effect.

I really liked that choice as well! It gave a nice complexity - and a good dilemma - for Shae because she does have a friendship with Sansa but is also upset about how she can't be publicly acknowledged by Tyrion. It also helped narratively both to give Sansa a way to express some of her inner thoughts (which are more easily conveyed through the book) and to let Shae serve as an audience proxy for exposition. It was a good move both in story and in show, IMO. I have been trying to figure out how they'll bring it back in line with the plot (or will they? It would be nice to see Kekelli stay on in some way because she brings some different energy).

Good riddance to Joffrey, and good journeys to Gleeson. I hear he wants to be a philosopher, which is awesome. I could totally envision him doing that. I got to play a really skeezy villain in a tabletop roleplay once, and it was hard seeing how uncomfortable the other players got at times; I apologized afterwards even as we all celebrated how well it went. He really brought so much to the role despite being the youngest person in the room most of the time.

Great discussions here! I find myself torn between wanting to see canon followed and desiring an interesting story transformed for television. Sometimes you just get great chemistry with some actors you weren't expecting, or the show wants to give certain characters more screen time than they had in the books. This was a great example of something I really liked - Bronn and Jaimie don't get to do much very interesting in the books, so this gives them a few opportunities to interact (both great characters) and to give some insight into their mental state (at least for Jaimie). I'm in the minority when I say that I prefer both Shae and Talisa in the show because they are more like real people and less like objects. Shae in the book was boring to me - an idealized "perfect girlfriend" - and it was hard for me to see Tyrion finding her interesting except for the sex and his whore complex. Shae on the show was witty and would poke back at Tyrion - something that he uniquely would appreciate in a woman because he like mental sparring. It does make it difficult to wrap up her storyline in the show though, so I'm curious to see how they manage that. Likewise, Talisa actually seemed like a character who would be a good queen. This emphasized good judgement by Robb rather than youthful indiscretion. Yes, in the book he made the "honorable" choice, but there was no indication that Jeyne would have made any better of a queen than a Frey Gal. Talisa, meanwhile, pushed back on Robb and encouraged him to grow into a man who could be a great king. That is a responsibility of a ruler to his people - to choose a partner who can rule beside them judiciously and to make them be a better leader - and that can even take precedence over a micro-honor issue (it isn't easy being honorable!) It took me a while to get over my suspicion at her being a spy, but when I did, I was quite impressed to see such a strong character in this story. It was also very nice to see not only a loving, consensual, het couple on screen (last one was... Ned and Catelyn?), but to see them equally assertive and interested in each other. Martin's outlook on the world has changed since he wrote the first books, and I think that his willingness to give certain side characters more depth and agency of their own is a great thing for the show. As long as it enriches the story and maximizes the use of good actor chemistry, I would rather see an interesting, internally logical transformed television show than a scene-for-scene reenactment of the books.