Zalyn

The best parts of the ep were Oliver's face when he found out that Isabel slept with his dad (epic karma?) and "Barry's in a coma and already he's moving on." I always wonder how long the bad guy has to wait around when infiltrating the hero's lair. What did Slade do to amuse himself? Maybe he played on the Salmon Ladder? It felt like this episode crammed a lot of answers in together: about Thea, where's Roy?, what is Laurel going to do?, does Quentin know?, how do we fight the mirakuru?, etc. Definitely the clearing of the table for the finale run.

Awesome heading choice. Murdock was my favorite character on The A-Team when I was wee, and it totally works! Floki has a great balance of religious zealotry, being just a bit "off", but also having a clear moral compass. And anyone who can do such an awesome line reading of "No." ("Unforgiven") deserves even more adulation.

I kept getting the feeling that Ragnar toting the lamb around was like a politician with a dog - trying to get cuteness points with Lagertha. They did a good job of giving a fair representation of both Ragnar's and Lagertha's perspectives in this.

Hi! I just finished Season 1 and started Season 2, so I thought I'd join. Interestingly, I first found this show while on the plane (it was the most attractive show available). Nice to be here!

No worries; I'm not bothered by it. In fact, it's entirely appropriate since the exec producer directly alluded to it. What a world we live in when the actors are better at promoting the show and its storylines than the producers! Besides my own aversion to "destined to be together" pairings in general, I fully agree with what others have said in noting that Laurel and Oliver just don't fit together. Independently, each has the ability to grow up, but their original relationship was just toxic and holds both back. Better for them to cultivate an effective relationship professionally - Laurel as the "legit hero lawyer" and Oliver as the vigilante - as a nod to the Green Arrow / Black Canary pairing, than to shoehorn it into how it's been done in the comics. But of course, that would require good writing for Laurel...

That's a good point, quarks - that Laurel hasn't been able to win anything as a lawyer without Oliver's help. Maybe I've been watching too much Leverage lately, but it would have been neat to have had an episode where Laurel managed to put the bad guy away when Oliver failed to. It would have shown that there are different types of strength that are all appropriate for different situations. That also could have established her more as a competent lawyer on her own. I think the adherence to superhero story tropes prevents this sort of thing from happening, sadly (again, tension between canon and stories appropriate for cast/characters).

That's my impression as well, and it's why I feel like there is such great chemistry in a mutual-respect/friendship sort of way aside from any questions of romance.

To Kreisburg: I need to break out some Barbara Walters - Okay, so I've done my best to be measured in my criticisms of Laurel the character, but if he thinks I'm being nice because I've got my "Lauriver" shrine set up, he's utterly wrong. Is there any fan of the show who is rooting for them? I honestly haven't seen anyone. Also, his "He has women in his life" comment, given that he didn't include Moira or Thea, comes across as reminiscent of the "harem genre" anime with the guy surrounded by (binders full of) women lusting after him. Not cool, dude.

Well said, Bizbuzz. He served well at the beginning as "the kid" to give the others some craziness/immaturity to react to. "Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc" and "Take This Sabbath Day" (first appearance of Joey Lucas) both exemplified this. Josh Lyman: Victory is mine, victory is mine. Great day in the morning, people, victory is mine. Donna Moss: Morning, Josh. Josh Lyman: I drink from the keg of glory, Donna. Bring me the finest muffins and bagels in all the land. Donna Moss: It's going to be an unbearable day. -------- Josh Lyman: Someone give me a river to forge, a serpent to slay. C.J. Cregg: What's his problem? Donna Moss: He's been drinking from the keg of glory. We're to bring him all the muffins and bagels in the land. Toby Ziegler: We heard.

I probably came to like Josh more because I found out what a great guy Bradley Whitford is. He was married to Jane Kaczmarek (the mom in Malcolm in the Middle) and together they supported a bunch of charities, including "Clothes off our Backs." It was a rare case of having so much admiration for the actor that I was willing to give the character more of a chance. He was flawed, certainly, but I don't see that as a bad thing because he felt like a genuine character. Personally, I liked the PTSD story in "Noel" because it was an early depiction of the condition that promoted discussion (rather than to just use it as an excuse for someone going crazy and killing people). Perhaps he served more as Sorkin's self-insertion character than the others, so that might have contributed to some annoyance with him. But Lemon-Lyman.com = awesome.

Oh, so many wonderful quotes by him... I'll avoid some of the obvious favorites. "What will be the next thing that challenges us, Toby? That makes us go farther and work harder? Do you know that when smallpox was eradicated, it was considered the single greatest humanitarian achievement of this century? Surely we can do it again, as we did in the times when our eyes looked towards the heavens and, with outstretched fingers, we touched the face of God. Here's to absent friends and the ones that are here now. Cheers." ("The Crackpots and These Women", 01x05) "You know what you are? You're the Charlie Brown of missile defense. The Pentagon is Lucy." ("The Drop In", 02x12) Pres. Bartlett showed me a side to Catholicism that is truly admirable and intellectual, and he also showed that a nerd could be President, at least on TV.

At least the writers will have exhausted every other option before damseling her, and I totally agree that some Slade snark aimed at Laurel could be satisfying.

Sarmon Lander OTP!

Would you mind explaining more about what this is? I'm not familiar with Graham Norton's style (and I rarely follow late night).

It would be interesting if Laurel had a gripe session with Thea... I could see them both talking around "Oliver's Secret" without realizing they're talking about completely different things. A wicked writing team could do wonderfully evil things to the audience that way.

I wonder if Oliver has trust issues with Sara because of their past. I can't even count how many times listening to or trusting Sara on the island got him into trouble; even if it's not conscious, that could be some baggage at play. Oliver does seem more likely to consider people he met since returning from the Island (Felicity, Diggle, even Roy* and Helena) as more credible than people he knew before (Laurel, Sara, Queen Mum, Thea). * Oliver thinks Roy is an idiot, but he is willing to take what he says at face value since he made him an informant. (I'll take this to the Sara thread if it goes beyond this post, but I wanted to respond here because it's relevant)

It's just that the Salmon Ladder is the Mary Sue of the show and so hogs the spotlight. ;)

I'm torn on this one. On the one hand, yes, it is expecting a bit much for all Americans to have read Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" and get it. On the other hand, the students I talk about are in college and enjoy the benefits of completing a litany of AP tests, including in English Literature and Language. Some of them felt that Michael Pollan was too much reading... that's not elitist, that's disappointment at continually sliding standards (oh, and their math sucks too, so it's not just that we've shifted to STEM). And compared to the really elite satire (Dr. Strangelove, for example), by comparison Stewart and Colbert are throwing pies. The other concern you bring up - that the elite potheads (ironic!) will "turn" on Colbert - is a bit confusing. Unless they/we start a hashtag war, how would we "turn" on him, other than to just not tune in? The thing is that we're not the target audience of late night talk shows, so it's the responsibility of CBS and Colbert to get the viewership of new people. And many of the elite potheads aren't even going to be registered in ratings, so we're basically going to be invisible, no matter how much we try to support him. CBS won't care how many tumblrs and blogs we post calling him a "sellout" (I don't think he is one; I'm just trying to envision what that would entail). I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I didn't follow George Carlin much until just before he died, but now that I see what he did, I appreciate his work as social commentary. Maybe it's a sign that I'm getting old and irrelevant (young Gen Xer), but there is little humor on television that actually is funny to me now. The people I hear about are either focusing on idiot humor (a la Jackass) or on shock and offense (Tosh), probably a sign of the times. If that's all that's left, we're not going to see someone younger step up to take on this task of calling bullshit on politics and media. It's not just about humor, but also about critique.

I had so many mixed feelings about this episode when it came out that it took until right before the movie's release for me to rewatch Season 3. It's less disappointing on rewatch (and knowing there is some resolution to the dangling threads helps), partly because I did pay more attention to Dick's and other minor characters' storylines. (I don't know what it is about traumatic Season 3s for me - this and BSG both are like that one song on a soundtrack you always skip, then one day you listen to it and find something to like about it. )

Jason Dohring did such a great job with this character; he reminds me of James Marsters in his ability to communicate so much physically through both stillness and movement. He does a lot of rotating motions, especially when with Veronica (see: "A Trip to the Dentist"), and his little forehead nuzzle was likely something he brought to the character too. The little things made Logan such a great character to watch!

I'm glad the multiple threads are working for you. I'm an old fogie and am used to threading on LJ, so it feels much more organized and easier to keep a train of thought going. And yes, it's like having lots of presents for your birthday instead of just one big one!

I can ignore the adults. I have to see the students three times a week. *starts twisting bedsheets*

This is exactly how I feel. I am concerned that the talk show format (and network expectations) won't allow as much of the biting satire to be brought in. And one thing that is sorely lacking in current culture is well done political satire that actually addresses real issues. I have students who completely do not understand satire. And I would be hard pressed to find something current, satiric, and educational to show them when TDS and TCR go away. I appreciate that you're trying to be optimistic, Milburn, but given that none of us are fighting this decision nor are we trying to start a hashtag protest, it's inaccurate to say we're overreacting. The unhappy comments here have been pretty measured and personally situated - "I feel bad to see this show go" or "I don't really watch late night talk shows, so I am not sure if there will be enough for me to enjoy, even if Stephen is there." I'm pretty sure most of us will tune in to watch the first show or two at least, but we're allowed to be sad to see a favorite show go without any attached judgements at the star/s. As far as whether Stephen will be able to work miracles for late night, sure, there is a possibility. But it is also a fact that networks exert a lot of control not only directly but by pointing to Nielsen ratings and other rating systems that are outdated, inaccurate, and skew heavily to older, more conservative (politically and socially) viewers. There aren't any models right now for late night talk that are interesting to me, so Stephen would have to invent something if he wants to stand out. Would CBS be willing to take a risk on that with a flagship show? It'd sure be nice if they did, but I'm not holding my breath.

YES. "There was a Leverage episode about this two years ago!" The relevance to issues today is one of the things I lov emost.

I'm feeling pretty morose about this. First, because The Daily Show and The Colbert Report are pretty much the only things that can make me laugh nowadays; there is no more witty comedy that appeals to me other than those shows. Jon looks like he's getting ready to move on as well... Also, I am deeply concerned that late night is going to suffocate him. I know that Letterman revolutionlized late night for his time, but other than the occasional interview or the Battlestar Galactica list, it's a waste of time for me to watch. Seeing what happened to Conan O'Brien makes me very pessimistic. I also frankly hate the "late night show" format - the bands playing is like a throwback to lame variety shows. I wish Stephen the best on this, seriously. But I feel like an era is ending in public discourse and satire. People are losing their understandings of what satire is and what its effect is, and that makes me sad.