Zalyn

You have made a great sacrifice FOR SCIENCE, BKWURM1! I agree that the body language (and eye contact) are very different in the collected clips. I feel that it's reasonable to assume that the fans took the "best" clips they could find, and so if we can identify tendencies among each collection, they could be representative of an overall trend. Also it's interesting to note that Diggle is there about half the time in the Felicity/Oliver vid while the Laurel/Oliver vid is mostly them alone. It feels like there is more camera movement on Felicity/Oliver interactions too (probably because they are in the middle of dramatic plot moments). tv echo, I too am a fan of relationships built on companionship and mutual badassedness - I recently got to watch Farscape and John and Aeryn are quite awesome (and Scully and Mulder are iconic awesome couple). I also liked the early Cordelia and Angel relationship - especially the scenes where they were training together. I alluded earlier to Roslin/Adama, the "slomance," as another paragon - they're too busy trying to do their jobs and help people, but they find that relying on the other and trying to understand them not only makes their job go better, but makes their lives better too. For me, that mutual trust and proficiency is what is important; romantic connections that follow then are founded on a much more rich basis than simply eye candy attraction. And so even though in the Laurel/Oliver videos they're pouncing on each other, it doesn't seem to be as emotionally high as Felicity/Oliver just looking at each other.

I have a distinct dislike for drama that relies on a complete lack of reasonable communication between people - Korean dramas are notorious for this. "Why don't you just TELL THEM XYZ???" is what I end up yelling at the TV all too often. In this case, to at least see Laurel asking and Sara refusing (because of her guilt and self loathing at being an assassin - easily communicated in a short convo with Oliver or Felicity or Diggle) would show us Laurel's Big Sister concern and a plausible reason for there not being open communications going on. And you definitely don't need a cool leather jacket while on the beach; sand and spilled mai tais aren't good for the leather, after all. :)

The observation of the apparent unprofessionalism probably kept me from buying Laurel's "lawyer helping the disadvantaged" angle that I really wanted to like. It would have been so easy for the writers to give Laurel an extra second to see her client off with a smile then drag Oliver around a corner to chew him out. Not only would it have allowed us to appreciate her professionalism, but it would have also put us on her side (being annoyed at Oliver bothering us while we were working) and set up a potential for duplicity later on (interesting character element).

http://forums.previously.tv/topic/3155-green-arrow-in-comics/

I hate to be the party pooper, but I'm going to throw a penalty flag now. I don't know what the rules are here, but I recall that at TWoP, there was a house rule that posters ought to avoid dictating to others how they are supposed to feel about characters, plots, etc. I am beginning to feel that this is happening here and on some other threads, and it's making me not want to come here anymore since the season is over and it's just a lot of wheel-spinning. Also, on a substantive note, I don't know what it's like to lose a parent, but I feel uncomfortable to see the loss of a parent trivialized so much here. It's bordering on offensive.

I bought the season on iTunes. Standard Def was pretty reasonably priced and it looked great on my TV,

Helena and Oliver are emotionally and psychologically interesting, so I wouldn't mind seeing that relationship explored and developed more in the future. As a "good idea" relationship? Terrible. If I had two friends like that, I would tell them to get the hell away from each other. But as a story and opportunity for character development, they are great to see.

You bring up good points, Carrie Ann. My concern is that the support for Oliver sleeping around would not be reflected for a female protagonist in the same circumstances. I also don't mind if the character is written such that they turn to one-night stands as a coping mechanism; it's the "well, there's so many hawt women around, I just couldn't help myself!" explanation that bothers me as coming from a place that assumes men will always want to get sex and have no self control. I just prefer to dig a bit deeper to better understand why a character engages in sex rather than to just cheerlead for their conquests.

It's still a very asshole move - at best, he's self-medicating in a very unhealthy way. At worst, he's exploiting a lot of people for his own needs. And I don't quite see what the "hotness" of women around him has to do with justifying his choices. If he were the 17 year old rich boy with no cares, then sure, but he's supposed to have changed and matured; this behavior indicates that he does need professional help. (I have a bit of whiplash from your drastically contrasting judgements of Oliver and Thea, frankly, so it's a bit confusing for me).

It seems that something about Thea's character is resonating very negatively with you, as you seem very passionate about this topic. I shared some real perspective regarding veterans to give some accuracy, but I shall excuse myself for the rest because it feels like a very negative turn right now.

The veteran analogy is apt (I served in the Navy, no combat), but what you're missing is that Oliver isn't telling people what he went through. We, the audience, see all the bad horrible stuff he went through on Flashback Island, but he's consistently refused to tell people what he's gone through. So while there is an abstract knowledge that he probably wasn't sitting on a beach chair sipping Mai Tais, they really don't get what he went through. It is incorrect to judge characters in the show based on our knowledge - that's a type of meta-gaming. We have to recognize that when there are things people don't know, they will see the same situation very differently. This is also a problem/challenge with soldiers - I remember some of the shit we went through (jet fuel in the water supply, were told it was tested to be safe), and I highly doubt that they told their families about it when we returned from deployment. All their families would know is that "some stuff sucked", if the servicemember even says that much; there is immense pressure and pride to not seem whiney, so many will focus just on the good things. Then their family will see behavior that contradicts the "deployment was awesome" line and get really confused. And frankly, I see civilians complain about things that may seem petty in comparison, but no one likes to have their life disrupted, and Thea's life was certainly disrupted - she lost her father and her brother and mourned them for five years, then was told that her brother was alive. Trauma is trauma, and losing not one, but two family members when one previously was in a very comfortable, pampered life, will very likely break someone badly. And finding out that one family member is in fact alive, but completely changed (while refusing to share some of why) is doubly traumatizing. I don't see how a 17 year old could handle that very well; I have a younger sibling, and I remember how much they'd follow me around constantly and measure themselves by me. If I had "died", even if I came back, we would not be able to return to life as before; we would have to renegotiate a new relationship because neither of us would be the same.

Oh gawd, the "black driver" line still cracks me up. That and the Diggle line I posted are two of the best in the show, IMO. (for similar types of great lines, check out Aldis Hodge's delivery in Leverage.)

That is true, but it is also possible for women to overtrain their obliques, which leads to a thicker waist. Not a bad thing in itself, but doing thousands of crunches will not spot-tone the belly and give a stereotypical hourglass figure. Of course, I think that the solution is to get more images of CL and other athletic women out there so people can see that sexy comes in many forms; maybe then people can focus on exercises that they like and that make them feel good without trying to achieve one sort of "ideal."

So two tidbits related to fitness that might be of interest: 1) A great pic of different female body shapes for Olympic athletes that emphasizes the great variety that healthy, awesome bodies have: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/19/howard-schatz-photos-women-professional-athletes_n_4297902.html 2) A great article by an experienced personal trainer who criticizes the lack of knowledge and understanding about how women's and men's bodies are seen to be so different that the same exercise is expected to have completely opposite effects. Good food for thought, especially for the ladies who want to work out but are concerned about getting too "thick" : http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=1305014

Diggle: [to new bodyguard] Oh, that boy's long gone, man. Still cracks me up.

I'm going to ask Santa for them to be a "cool, action-parent couple" like Athena and Helo from Battlestar Galactica, with much less kidnapping. You mean Dean, Sam, and the Impala. Gotta have three. :) I was thinking of other triads, like Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. The three-person core is a great trope because it allows for more paths of interaction. I hope there can be more of the "older and wiser big brother" angle going for Diggle. And more dry observations ("He's already gone").

I just recently started watching Spartacus and Manu is quite awesome in it. He does do "badass pining for girl" in there too, and quite sappy for a gladiator at that. I get so motivated watching shows where the actors are clearly busting their asses to be in great shape! I also find it interesting how SA managed to somersault over the Uncanny Valley of Male EyeCandy to be admired by straight dudes at conventions (who ask about his fitness) even while gals (and quite a few guys) enjoy ogling him. Yet he's not uber macho or jerky about it, which makes him a great role model for lots of people.

This is a great observation, and that seems to be part of the root for the lack of fit. (I may be straying from the thread topic, but I'm keeping on the ascerbic side of her relationship with Oliver and his manpain) In improv, Rule #1 is to never say "no." So if someone throws a ball at you, you can't just ignore it. You have to at least catch it. But then you have to throw something back, or pass it on to someone. Even better, you add more angles so that more can play. I recently played a storyteller-style roleplaying game called "Fiasco," which focuses on relationships between player characters and lets a story evolve from that. When it became clear we needed a villain, I stepped up and played a totally gross, despicable, obnoxious casino tycoon whose stuff everyone else was trying to steal. We were willing to sacrifice some realism to give the other players more things to play with - so if I wanted to try to kill one of them, rather than hire a pro who drops poison in their beer glass at the bar (too easy), I clumsily break into their house with a huge axe that hits the ceiling when I try to swing it, thus giving them an opportunity to respond in an equally showy way. The problem with Laurel's drug abuse arc was that it was all turned inward; other characters had to spend time and energy looking at her, but she didn't give anything back to the story, positive or negative. There wasn't a case she had to prosecute that was going to sink if she didn't pull her shit together. Nor did her carelessness directly create a new threat to the city that Team Arrow had to run off to take care of. So it ended up being peripheral, like much of her character (again, writers? Hello?) By contrast, many other Bad Choices by characters set up future storylines - Thea running off with Psycho!Dad, for example. If the Manhunter option is still on the table for Laurel, then it could be neat to see Laurel inherit the DA position and, having processed the "Oliver is Arrow" bombshell, which I don't think she has adequately done yet, she could get a renewed, Quentin Lance-like (S1) devotion to the Law and criticize Oliver's vigilante work. Seeing how unhappy Sara was could add to this. So Laurel and Oliver can have steady snark about that whenever one needs help from the other - they'll be loathe to do it, but they know they're stuck without the other's special talents/access. Like Laurel can't prosecute a big criminal without Arrow getting some evidence. Meanwhile, Laurel moonlights at the gym taking muay thai or some other hardcore martial arts and starts going out as Manhunter, leading to a future confrontation when it's Oliver who's wondering who the masked vigilante is. Not quite sure why - bipolar? Frustration with being dependent on Oliver for help in her DA work? This ties together 1) Laurel being someone badass (taking advantage of KC's abilities), 2) letting Laurel actually develop as a character in a way that feeds stories, and 3) makes for interesting, rather than flat, interactions and relationship development for Laurel and Oliver. It also keeps the morally grey nature of all institutions on the show - no one, not Queen Consolidated, not the police, not Alderman Blood, etc., are simply good or bad.

Roy being able to shoot a bow with any proficiency is much more believable than Laurel doing it; he has the boosted muscle strength and actually did some training with Oliver. I have no problems with it, though I would like to see more of his Parkour and hand to hand moves in the future.

Great thread! I find myself wishing that they could make Laurel and Oliver into snarky, bitchy exes. That would at least give some energy and movement to their scenes. They clearly cannot do loving - whether tender or heated. If there weren't such warm chemistry with SA/EBR, it wouldn't be so apparent, but in every scene with SA/EBR I see SA wanting to touch her or just stand and study her (not in an objectifying way, but in a serene, still way, like a wolf just curiously watching you). Meanwhile, if they want to have anything interesting in SA/KC scenes, they will need to rely on dialogue more to give the actors more to do, because they can't just be still together. And I think it would make sense too - we tend to regress with those who knew us when we were younger, and so Oliver could easily tap into his manpain and tension with being reminded of how he was pre-Flashback Island whenever around Laurel. That can be a good journey the characters take together - finding out how to relate to each other in the present rather than in the past.

Good find! I like his interpretation, and it fits with my read of Thea. I never said Thea was making a good decision, just that it can be seen as consistent with her emotional and psychological state from her perspective. And it's good to see that JB is setting up Malcolm as fitting snugly with her state of mind.

Not only that, but I think Malcolm is the first person to see strength in her and to praise it. Psychologically, if she sees her perceived lack of strength as the reason everyone lies to her (because SHE CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!), then becoming strong will stop that. But if no one in her life sees her as strong except for this crazy man (who is smart enough to plan to survive a gunshot) who is stronger than anyone she knows, then it makes sense that she'd go with him. Who else does she have? For all her big talk about leaving Starling City and going off on her own, she never has had to be alone or self-sufficient (minus her short time running the club - backslide time!). So it makes sense, characterwise, that she'd turn to the first person who proves their strength and sees the potential in her, even if it's clearly a Bad Idea.

You are hilarious! Bolded parts were serious spit-take risks. Well done!

Sorry you don't care for how things are going, Danny. Any suggestions on what you'd have liked to see? I personally felt this was a good balance of Thea's agency (i.e. she makes a decision, however bad, for herself), setting up future dynamics, and tapping into inter-family politics (which formed a strong framework for the beginning of the show). The struggle with one's identity when it's discovered that your father isn't your father and someone else whom you despise is is a powerful one that is usually reserved for male characters, which makes this doubly intriguing for me since it's less common to see it done with a "smaller" character (a little sister) and a female one at that. But I'd like to hear other options for the sake of argument.

I would love to see a hardened Thea come back after some badass training with Malcom. There is some great potential for some good dramatic interactions between her and Oliver after she becomes the stronger person she is now determined to be.