Zalyn

I'm hoping that the "annoying teenager" aspect will go away and be replaced by some cold resolve and bitterness; I'm looking forward to Oliver trying to figure out how to relate to his sister after her "crucible."

I'm beginning to think I'm one of only a few Thea fans, but I really like this development with her going off and wanting to become strong. It gives some nice future opportunities for family drama and character clash, fall-from-grace and redemption (I'm a sucker for those, see Spike's and Wesley's arcs). And I also think that Willa has enough emotional layers to be able to pull it off, especially working with Jon Barrowman. Hopefully we'll get to see some training for her that doesn't involve slapping water.

I think the scene played out perfectly because EBR (and SA) gives such great reactions just from their stillness, but it would have been hilarious if she'd responded with "I know." Just because. XD

"Sara Lance: International Assassin" - it has a nice ring to it. Though I imagine smarmy James Bond music to play whenever I say that. No mention of LL/Katie Cassidy? huh.

Wow, very interesting ep with lots to chew on. Given that Quentin rolled his eyes at the Canary Jacket exchange, I'm going to calm myself down by putting that in the same box as the "Speedy!" addressed to Roy. It's a tease to the comics canon, but they won't go with something that obvious. *crosses fingers* Also, when Sara told Laurel that Oliver "needs her," Laurel got this look as if she was thinking, "you're full of shit, he doesn't need me." Again, I'm going to tell this to myself during the break. I'm giving myself a cookie for calling Oliver using Felicity as bait. But the love confession - wow. I had to rewind to see if I was seeing it correctly! I'm going to fanwank in favor of Olicity and point out that it wasn't a good "fake" confession. Knowing Oliver, that would have involved heavy-handed smooching and stuff. Besides the actor chemistry, that was just played too real for it to be completely fake, so I agree with others that it points to real feelings that neither are quite ready to talk about. Well played, too. I'm giving myself (and another poster) a second cookie for calling the Thea/Malcolm interaction. I still think it would have been funnier if he'd actually hugged her, because John Barrowman hugs would be awesome. And I'm personally excited that Thea is going off with Malcolm and talking about how she wants to become strong. It sets her up for some future awesomeness (and possibly villany). It's tragic and uncomfortable, but I'm looking forward to some good scenes with the two of them in the future. So overall, well done, show! Surprises and teases, and possibly even some fakeouts before. I'll be back next season.

I'm really torn on whether I want to check back here during/after airtime to see what you all think and waiting until tomorrow morning when I can watch the ep for myself (iTunes). I find that the lower my expectations for the viability of the show, the more likely I am to seek out the spoilers. Oy. Good luck!

This is awesome, and I love the name of the show. The description reminds me of Melissa Harris-Perry's weekend news panel show in that it's going to focus on underrepresented comics. Great idea, and I'm totally looking forward to it.

GirlWednesday found this great blog post breaking down the first meeting scenes for Felicity/Oliver and Laurel/Oliver. Jennifer Crusie focused on how important that first meeting is to drawing the audience in to be interested in the couple as characters in themselves. I highly recommend reading it if you haven't already because she gives a great orderly rundown of elements of the "chemistry" most of us have observed: http://www.arghink.com/2014/01/20/writing-the-first-meet-scene-arrow/

GirlWednesday, that blog post is an awesome find ! I'm going to repost in the Felicity thread because it explains the source of the "chemistry" that's attached to Felicity and Oliver / EBR and SA. I completely agree with the lists of things that the writers could do to salvage Laurel as a character. I would like to add that giving us more of a look into her motivations for becoming an attorney - one of the good ones who helps poor people! - and her sadness and confusion when Sara "died" six years ago would help us to understand her internal state more too. If they'd been able to establish those two aspects of her character at the start - passionate about helping the less fortunate and big sister - we would have had a solid core to return to. The sad thing is that they could have fit in a few crumbs of dialogue in the first five eps to accomplish this, maybe Det. Lance reminiscing with Laurel about how she didn't leave her room for a week and played Nickelback constantly (insert other artist) after they got the news. That would have brought in some of the vulnerability J.C. was talking about in her blog post. But instead she immediately got sucked into the Tommy/Oliver triangle with minimal agency.

Speaking of, did EBR or the writers get the idea that Felicity likes mint chip ice cream from SA's love of it? I happen to love mint chip too, so these things are SRS BZNS to know!

My favorite, because I would cry with Willow.

What if they lose and have to retreat / are banished to the island? Whoa, that could be bold.

Dayum, if they don't do that in this show, I'm stealing the idea for a parody of the harem genre in manga. I'm hoping we'll get to see another encounter between Felicity and Isabel - with glorious hair and ass for everyone.

Okay, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate and argue that showing Oliver touching Felicity is not pandering, period. It is effective camera work that 1) tells the emotional story that needs to be told, namely, that Oliver has trouble trusting, connecting to, and reaching out to people, and Felicity is one of the people he can do it with, albeit slowly, and 2) that the chemistry between the actors is such that SA actively wants to touch EBR (he has said as much in interviews) as part of adlibbing the characters. To not include those organic moments is bad show production. I remember in S5 of Angel that Boreanaz and Marsters had such great (antagonistic) chemistry that they went with one camera instead of the normal two-camera setup to read lines. The camera just zipped back and forth between the two of them because they fed on each other's energy so well and escalated the emotional timbre powerfully in the scene; to use the standard filming would have destroyed that natural energy. Pandering in a show is contriving plot points or situations to put characters together who would have no reason to be together. For example, one could argue that in Star Trek, the inevitable "mind control" or "loss of control" virus/alien/implant/parasite would get two fan favorites to hook up with no strings attached afterwards. In fact, writing Laurel into walking out with Team Arrow right after Oliver proclaimed that it's back to "the three of us" (e.g. Oliver, Diggle, Felicity) and not respecting their relationship could be seen as pandering, but feels more like the shoehorning of the EPs in pushing Laurel into situations that make no sense. Why is she there and not at the DA's office? Why is she running around on the streets in a bright red jacket and heels when there are fights happening? She's out of her element and not able to interact meaningfully in ways that fit her character's strengths. Back to topic: I had forgotten about Oliver Jr. Uh oh.

Hi again, Gwen-Stacys. I'm glad you came over here. I do encourage you to start at the beginning to try to get a feel for how our feelings about Laurel have evolved over the last season. I'm sure you wouldn't mind doing the reading since you are an advocate for reading the source material first before jumping to conclusions. I can't speak for others, but I'm glad to see a female character in the spotlight who isn't trying to be ditzy and cheery all the time. But it's frustrating to see the EP insist that Laurel and Oliver at the OTP we're supposed to root for when the scenes between Laurel and Oliver have mostly been ascerbic and tense, and the chemistry between the actors, SA and KC, has been very negative. It would be better if Laurel could be an interesting antagonist to Oliver/Arrow, but instead she is being shoehorned into a romantic relationship with him when it's not appropriate for either character and not feasible to watch on-screen. Laurel's storylines have been poorly written and have not done the character justice; again, the EP said she was going "dark", which seemed to allude to her drug problem, but I don't see being addicted in itself as dark. If others came to harm because of her addiction and she didn't care, that would be dark. She as a character deserved more scenes that allowed her to emotionally connect with others, like Det. Lance, Sara, maybe even Thea (a former addict), but any conversations they had were mostly short and serving other plotlines. In the last episode, I wish Laurel had actually emphasize that she is Sara's big sister; that would have been a powerful emotional cue to use, but the writers didn't bother, one of many failures on their parts. Finally, Laurel doesn't get to make her own choices; there are many examples in this thread where her "choices" were actually rehashes of other characters' motivations or intentions. She deserved to represent herself more with her own agency. I am trying to give you some of the background for the negative feeling around here towards the character of Laurel, and I once again encourage you to read the full thread before you come in accusing us of being haters. It is hard to take you seriously when you only seem interested in throwing out accusations and blame without starting an actual conversation.

Hi Gwen, welcome to the boards! I encourage you to go take a look at the Laurel character thread; there are quite a few detailed discussions explaining some of the frustration people have felt with the character. There were also some statements made by Executive Producers that seemed to not reflect the types of storylines we've seen play out on screen, and those have made some of us anxious about whether everyone working the show is on the same page about where they are taking things. I'm not sure which OP you're talking about. I responded to the first person I saw asking about the negativity towards Laurel, and I encourage you to read my response to get a feeling for where some of us are coming from.

I loved this episode for all the reasons you mention. It's a great opportunity for all the actors, including John Billingsley, to play around with different angles of their characters.

I never thought I would be praying for a Jossing*. * Joss Whedon is infamous for killing off one of an OTP that just gets together/realizes their love/cements their relationship, much to the misery of fans. Fridge Horror moment: What if we get a combo of Oliver + Mirakuru and Laurel being killed in front of him? Then we have Crazy!Oliver with Ghost!Laurel talking to him forever. *throws salt over shoulder and makes ward against evil*

I tend to see frustration with how the character of Laurel is written and integrated with the rest of the characters in the show. I have seen hatred in the past regarding other characters in other shows, and here it feels more like a result of a disconnect between the producers' perception of what the audience wants and how part of the audience sees things differently. Both in character writing and in actor (lack of) chemistry, it feels like Laurel isn't a good fit in the types of situations she's placed in, but Important People Making The Show seem tone-deaf in their failure to note the lack of enthusiasm. I also wanted to like Laurel's character at the start - confident, active, passionate about helping people, accomplished. But in trying to shoehorn her into being jealous (of Sara), in a love triangle (with Tommy and Oliver), and sometimes-damsel, sometimes-antagonist, the moments of deep emotional connect she had in this episode - with Oliver, with Sara - don't feel earned. This episode wasn't as bad as last episode ("I know you like I know my own name") since the lines weren't so heavy-handed, but her involvement still feel contrived. I'm still grouchy about her excellent form with the bow; I don't mind her hitting her target, but I really don't like that someone who's never held a bow can draw it that well just from verbal instruction. Kudos to KC for working on it, but it's a case where she should have looked less competent. (P.S. I'm trying to avoid "boards on boards" and getting too off-topic)

Could the "unthinkable" thing possibly have to do with letting Felicity get captured on purpose to de-Mirakuru Slade? I could see Oliver having a righteous hissy fit over that plan. It would be nice if the "cure" would stop the crazy and take them down to, say, 125% of normal strength, so Roy would still be slightly stronger than "normal" - enough to have something special going on, but not enough to be monstrous. And Team Arrow could take down Wilson and the 'Strokes if they were "just" at 125%.

Well then. Felicity looks quite calm and composed. Good girl.

Oliver doesn't know it yet, but he's in love with Malcolm. Clearly, that is the only answer that allows Jon Barrowman to appear shirtless and tied up in front of SA to return the favor from last season. We also know Barrowman would totally sell it too. *sagenod*

"Kidnapping people is more of a mid-season thing. Now that Starling City is on fire, it's time for stand-up fights." - Awesome, Monty!

I'm getting a feeling we should change the Felicity thread title to "Bitch with WiFi"... Of course, she handles a van quite well too. Quite happy that Felicity got great lines this episode; she's back to her biting observations while also winning at arguing down Oliver. Also, Hug of Epic Belief was terrific.

This was a very interesting episode. I got the feeling of movement among key players and positions - with the DA dead, the police chief dead, and the mayor dead, that opens up three very important positions for Starling City next season - for good or ill. (I'm guessing ill) I'm a bit disappointed that Blood bit it (or did he?) because that would have made for an interesting future dynamic: the mayor and the local vigilante/hero both know each other's secret, but they're in an identity standoff as they negotiate how to deal with the city. Also, Blood's ambiguity has been intriguing; I wonder if he is a bit bipolar because of his (abusive?) father. On the one hand, he genuinely seems to be a populist and on the other, is just plain crazy. I'm holding out hope that he's still around because I thought they did a great job with him. I appreciated the irony of Blood using the whole sexist "Pull yourself together, irrational, hysterical woman!" bit with the DA; it was a nice subversion of how it's normally used because in this case, he was totally in on things. Yes! I'm so glad he got the teaser-to-title cut. Their scenes together were great, and them looking like each other totally sold it. However, the one immersion-breaking thing was my inner Barrowman-fan wondering how anyone could not want John Barrowman to be their hawt daddy because he's that awesome. Thea, what crack are you smoking? I'm relieved that the viewer theory is that she shot a Mirakuru-mook and not Malcolm. I figured he'd have a bullet proof vest anyway. Oh, and his "you'd better take the safety off" snark was gold. Okay, everything he said was gold. On the flip side, I'm glad they let Laurel have good interactions with people, especially Sara. I do wish that they had told a bit more of the "I'm your big sister, I'll always love and support you" element of their relationship; I think it would have helped humanize Laurel more. But I'm glad they did what they did. Quentin - awesome. I'm so glad he got to be with his two daughters and return to Detective rank. Maybe future Police Chief? It's a great twist. Although, I couldn't help but laugh when Oliver sulked, "I've failed... this city." Geez, Oliver, you're such a terrible boyfriend you can fail an entire city! I can't help but crack up at bad guys getting run over mid-line; Felicity hitting Isobel was just too perfect. Speaking of Felicity - that Hug of Epic Belief was immensely satisfying and wonderful. I feel like it fit and carried more emotion than much of the smooching on television today. Of course, SA and EBR could do knitting together and it'd be wonderful. Overall, there was plenty of character movement throughout this episode, things happened emotionally, and we had some good character development for Laurel, Sebastian Blood and Thea Malcolm. ETA: When Isobel asked who Shado was, I began to wonder if she'll turn on Slade next ep because he's too crazy, even for her. Just a thought.