Zalyn

Diane is one of my favorite characters, but she really is best reacting to what others, like Junior, are doing. Junior's the "straight man," and Zoey is his "wise buddy." Jack is the goofball, and Diane is the snarker. Snarker can't carry a plot. There's great potential for awesome interactions, but they need to be set up in the right sequence and proportions. I got this feeling that the bathroom attendant was a White version of the "Magical Negro" trope, which made him hilarious to me.

Agreed. There was an interesting nuance with Honey that she's more worldly and open to new experiences (stinky tofu and Stephen King movie), more likely to think for herself, and even very aware of why Eddie was acting so ridiculously. While I don't support stealing someone's spouse (which is not even certain), it is certainly possible that the hubbie actually realized she was more of an individual, thinking person than his first wife (who was probably also a Stepford). It's awkward and uncomfortable (esp. since Eddie likes her stepdaughter), but that's reality, and it's something that I look forward to seeing explored.

Thea thanking Oliver and giving him a hug made me get a little misty-eyed; their brother-sister interaction at the beginning of the show was something I really liked, so I hope to see more of it again. They still tread a fine line into "a bit too much chemistry for siblings...", but it will be good seeing them develop their adult relationship together now, hopefully with fewer lies.

I really like having the restaurant in the background of everything because it helps bring a contrast to food when it's brought up - like the lame potluck by the Stepford wives and the "Stinky Tofu" by Jessica. I got a bit wibbly when Honey went for the tofu and genuinely was excited about it; that's always been a way that I find affinity for someone - if they like or are willing to try delicious (but strange) ethnic food, they've got to be okay on some level.

Hiya, it's great to meet other people who are passionate about cross-cultural discussions and, of course, Asian food. I wanted to let you know that I just tried to order the book from B&N and it's delayed. I'm not surprised, but I take that as a good sign that people are provoked into thinking about things by the show and buying the book to get the real story. Quick about me: Mom's Korean, immigrated to American when she was 18 in the late 60s. My dad is half Japanese, half white/Jewish (his mom is Japanese immigrant). So my parents were cultural rebels on the one hand, but stuck in certain frames on the other. They made a lot of effort to assimilate my brother and me, so we got to see a lot of nuances across groups in the Seattle area (including the heavily Korean suburbs) - really insular Korean-Americans and Asians who rejected a lot of their culture. It's been neat seeing more about Chinese-American culture (I like "Off the Great Wall" on youtube) because some parts are really similar to Korean-American culture, while other parts are different. Great to be here!

I had so many feels from Ep 3 (had to post before getting to Ep 4) for Jessica and Honey. As I'd hoped, this show is really making the intersectionality (ethnicity and gender) visible in a way that is thought-provoking. Loving Emery's vs. Eddie's views on gals and relationships.

I'd prefer "chocolate banana" since it sounds a little less bad, but I appreciate Huang's openness about these things; I think that more voices about these sorts of stories will be even better. I keep eyeing his book online and want to buy it; having a discussion thread here would be a great incentive to buy it sooner rather than later.

My mom came to America in the early 70s and she spoke fluent English because they taught it in school and she read a lot of English books. I've also heard that there was a very large missionary presence in Korea after the Japanese occupation because that was one of the ways Koreans could be literate in non-Japanese, so I'd imagine they picked up some English that way too. The way my parents used the phrase, it implied a cultural illiteracy moreso than a language one. For example, my mom got teased by her friends when she didn't know that "grass/weed" meant marijuana. Later on, my parents were told by a car salesman that he wouldn't tell them the price of a car they were interested in unless they promised to buy it first; the way they tell the story to me, they say, "He treated us like we were some fresh off the boat ignorant people even though we spoke perfect English." I see that sort of "fobbiness" with the mom in the show especially because she sees everything through a Chinese cultural lens - good grades means the school is too easy, "free" samples means all of it is free, costs must be cut everywhere (and people dipping hands into croutons is gross). That contributes to awkardness more than any specific language barrier.

Thanksgiving for my family would have been a great Asian-American sitcom because we has so many bizarre things happen; it was totally a "Korean American family tries to do TG". My mom is a great cook of all things, including turkey, but we'd just have weird disasters, partly from a feeling of obligation to do the "white American thing". But my grandma hated poultry in general, so she'd only politely nibble, which contributed to cross-cultural tension. One year, we had a power outage, so we got Chinese takeout. Another year, my aunt did all store-bought stuff (it was gross). Several years when my dad (Japanese/Jewish) was gone for a work trip, we'd just say "to heck with it!" and go get yummy Korean or Chinese food instead because we thought it was tastier. To get back on topic, I love the clumsy appropriation of "cowboy culture" Louis does for the steakhouse; I also get a feeling that they don't see what is served there as "real food". It really reminded me of how we'd go through the motions and make mac 'n cheese or other "standard American fare" kind of in the same way other families might do "Mexican Night" or some other "ethnic" food for an experience. (I am loving reading all the responses here - it's like decades of feeling alone and not understood is all tumbling out and finding people who understand. Regardless of the how the show ends up going, I am so glad it's been able to provoke these great discussions!)

It sounds like we grew up similarly; my mom made sure to teach us proper table manners with knife and fork in addition to teaching us chopsticks (I preferred chopsticks for everything but steak, even salad is better!), and we would alternate with Western food periodically. We also weren't really "in" the Korean-American community (they were very obsessed with church, and my parents didn't like that scene, and being mutts we didn't fit anyway), so I got to see a lot of those kids growing up very insulated in Korean culture because they could be in Seattle. Seeing the Chinese market flashback suggested to me that DC was the same way - it was entirely possible to be completely insulated from non-Chinese culture if the parents didn't make an effort. Two funny stories on restaurant eating: 1) a Kor-Am acquaintance of mine (standard type - played Chopin in middle school, tennis, straight A's) bragged about not knowing how to use a knife and fork as a way to demonstrate his heritage. 2) my brother had to teach his (white) friends how to use the cloth napkins and steak knives when they went out for prom dinner because they weren't taught that while he was. So class/social status is definitely a part of it, as is the inertia and insularity of some communities in terms of food culture.

This, exactly. Not to mention that if you've never had a sandwich (which is likely) or rarely had a sandwich, there is no way to know how to make it. In my house, sandwiches were "crappy food you took for school lunch because the other kids teased me about yummy Korean/Japanese bento lunches", and I still shudder thinking about the soggy ham sandwiches that I choked down until I stopped caring what others thought. If that wasn't a part of your culture, how would you learn how to make them? "Sandwich bread" could even be a concept one couldn't just figure out at the store - I remember that Wonderbread was the standard (this was the 80s) and whole wheat bread was crappy, but there are still a bunch of styles and types that make no sense if you don't already know what you're looking for (food preferences are mostly shaped by parents in children). It would be like telling a non-Asian in Japan to just go to the store and buy the stuff to make a sushi bento lunch and make it oneself. If one relied on pop culture (remember, no Internet with Lifehacker and stuff), then it could easily be assumed that sandwiches are made by piling stuff up Dagwood-style. I was in school when Lunchables came out; it wasn't enough to just have the same stuff that was in there, it was about the brand name. The point of the cafeteria/lunch scene was to emphasize the social importance of fitting in, not just with the right type of food, but with the right labeling as well. I remember discussing Lunchables with my parents, and since (as I stated above) that "food" was considered beneath my palate anyway (and I was such a loner I stopped caring when kids hounded me), I was fine with higher quality lunch meats and cheese if I were going that route. But Eddie, who was already fighting an uphill battle for social acceptance, would have just been mocked more for appearing to be so low class that he couldn't afford REAL Lunchables. Lastly, do not underestimate the position of power and responsibility held by the Asian mom. In Japan, some mothers aggressively compete with each other to make more impressive lunches for their children, sometimes spending hours on them. To make one's lunch oneself is really to deny Mother her role and opportunity to do good mothering. One can try to tell Mom that "I'll make my own lunch," and she'll nod and go "yeah, yeah," then make you a lunch anyway (and it will be better than anything you could put together). Even as an adult, when I go to my parents' house, I expect to get my hand bitten off for cooking in her kitchen because that is Mom's Territory. This may be different today (both in terms of how fit "stereotypical American sammich stuff" is and how Asian moms do lunches now), but the swag of Lunchables and the tradition of Mom packing lunches (with awareness of nutrition and status concerns) was entirely appropriate for the time it's set in.

I'm so glad I wasn't the only one fixated on this!

Maybe she's being established as "just being there" from Eddie's perspective first?

I grew up in the 80s in Seattle, and I was routinely mocked for bringing Korean food to school, so that bit really resonated with me. My mom told me I even went through an "I hate spinach!" phase for about two weeks in kindergarten because all the other kids claimed to hate it. I got better when I remembered how delicious it was, but the peer pressure and harassment of anyone with non-standard PB&J was very present. The dynamics between Jessica and Louis are great too - from Jessica sucking it up to try to make things work with the Stepford Rollerbladers to making magic behind the scenes to protect Louis' (apparent) naivete and Louis hiding from Jessica being a bit overbearing and insistent about little things* - it's very real to me. I really like the perspective this show brings, and there are a lot of little things that definitely speak to my childhood (even though it was a decade separated), so I'm looking forward to seeing more. Also, I haven't laughed this hard at a sitcom in a long time. (* I watched 01 and 02 together, so I hope it's okay that I reference 02 generally here since it helps flesh out their dynamic)

Wow, so I just saw this via a friend today and I'm impressed. I'm not into this type of movie, but I may watch it to see how KC and ED work together. It feels like it has good energy for KC to work with.

Jake seems to be presented as the "guy just like your father" for Olivia in contrast to the "homme fatale" Fitz. ("homme fatale" borrowed from a book discussing Veronica Mars as genderbent noir). I started out suspicious of him, but appreciate his honesty (where he's allowed to be, and when he's not allowed to tell, he says it up front) and moral consistency (even when doing terrible things, like killing people). Also, little things are done to contrast him with Fitz - one that stuck out to me was how Jake gently asserted that it was "his turn" at the beginning of S4, and that his turn "involves lots of kisses." Meanwhile, Fitz (in his not-hot phone sex call) emphasized that he wouldn't kiss Olivia until after doing other things - Jake is the love, affection, and foreplay while Fitz is the conquering/ravishing.

Agreed. I admit that I'm a bit biased against his type where I'm always suspicious of his motives, so I was pleasantly surprised when he did have a conscience. Good play, Show.

That is one thing that I find uniquely interesting about this show - it can be interpreted as deconstructing a lot of the tropes involved in politics: the presidential mistress, the power-hungry Hera-wife, the draconian Chief of Staff. Each of these tropes become people in this show, with their own stories, motivations, and interests (with varying success depending on episode). Likewise, to compare Olivia to Helen of Troy is not to do it at face value - I see it as a way to look back at the myth of Helen of Troy and consider what her agency may have been in that story that was effaced from history because it likes to focus on men and what they do with their privates. Heck, even the "good boyfriend" Jake has a lot more of a spine than the typical one does - he sets his boundaries, holds Olivia to them, insists on "his turn" when appropriate. He's Lancelot, but less stupid.

Please send thanks to your friend for collecting that data so we didn't have to.

Really enjoyed this episode - the emotional and other consequences seem to fit better with the feel of the show. (New here, finally caught up with everything *waves*) One theme I saw coming out of this episode was what people are willing to do for those they care about. 1) Olivia goes Rowan to exonerate Jake. 2) Javier tracks down Huck (and Huck connects with his son via an online game prior to that) 3) Leo spares Abby the pain of having to come forward about Chuck's abuse of her. 4) Tom's love for the President, in the way of a blindly loyal knight solely devoted to keeping his king as The King. I always felt Leo was smarmy (and missed the first time that he was talking about his and Abby's sexual tension, and not Abby's and Chuck's), but he seems to really like her. Regarding Fitz's phone sex - it really forced a comparison to Jake earlier in the season with his whole, "It's my turn now. And my turn involves lots of kissing," as he kissed her from top to bottom - the reverse of Fitz. While I don't like contrived love triangles, it's been nice seeing the very clear contrasts drawn between Fitz and Jake (and now even a sharper distinction between Jake and Rowen - Jake was very much the Electra Complex object for a while). Tom - I find it plausible for this silent, watchful man to finally break his silence and tell someone what he really thinks. It makes sense that it's Olivia, since she has to be able to draw the truth out from her clients. One thing this show does well is that it forces us to see other perspectives that are often discounted or watered down. Lastly, Kacey(sp?) in the ad was full of win. I loved it.

It is possible that the disconnect of Laurel's scenes from the rest of the cast and the main or secondary plots makes it feel even more disproportionate. There is so much character development that can happen with tight writing even when characters are involved in the main story. But it's like you have that one guest to a dinner party who brought take out and eats that instead of what everyone else is eating; you notice it more.

I've been musing on whether there are effective techniques for showing adult siblings together and affectionate in ways that don't feel potentially incestuous. I really like the idea of Oliver's and Thea's relationship as siblings and want to see more of it developing in light of recent events, but sometimes the vibes just feel off. Maybe it's Thea's half-a-shirt and newfound confidence, but Thea and Oliver having popcorn together in her place hasn't helped to dispel early concerns about a little too much chemistry. But I'm not sure if there is anything that can be done; they just work well together, and I'm sure Willa's caught some of JB's "sexy chemistry with even a doorknob" affect, which isn't helping. (I've been binging on Scandal, so I'm sure it's making me see everything through sex-tinted glasses too. )

This was one thing that really stood out to me in this episode too! I'm hoping that it is a sign of Oliver actually beginning to grow emotionally and not just a one-time thing to make a good episode focused around Felicity (along with the awesomeness of her saving herself). It would mean he is actually learning something from D&F!

I'm bitter that the show has so much focus on Laurel that it's going to get difficult to effectively discuss episodes without treading the sensitive Laurel Line into too much negativity. When they do things like obviously parallel Thea's "getting stronger" storyline with Laurel's story, I need to talk about the comparison forced on us by the writers. I'm trying to think of some more neutral placeholder (like a series of symbols?) to represent negative commentary because I don't want to be part of the problem. (I am not trying to complain about the latest mod restrictions - I think they are necessary - it's just frustrating that I can't ignore or omit discussions of Laurel's character more because of how the show is going now).

I've actually been checking out the episode discussion before watching the episode; my friend warned me about the season opener, so that started me on that trend. This past episode, I cared so little that I just put it on while I played computer since I didn't feel like dedicating full attention and emotion to what was going to be unsatisfying. I'm bitter because I don't feel enough trust to let myself be disappointed again.