DearEvette

This is my theory as I mentioned somewhere, maybe upthread. if they don't want to bring Abbie back from wherever she is too soon but still keep her and Ichabod in each other's company one way to do that is to show us the Witnesses back through time. Since CC said in the Variety interview that the Witnesses have been involved in Pandy/Zod's 4,000 year history in one way or another, I can't imagine the show not using that somehow. Also, the guard in the very first episode said that the people on the Sumerian tablet looked just like Abbie/Ichabod. I theorize that if we do get to see past lives of the witnesses, they will be Beharie/Mison but as forerunners to Abbie/Ichabod. I mean, wouldn't it be cool for the show to do an ancient Sumerian or Egyptian flashback? And how more cool that Abbie gets to be involved in a series of flashbacks too?

See, I thought the argument stopped being about Owen real quick. The bottom line is Meredith has her own separate relationship with Owen that has nothing to do with Amelia's relationship with Owen. And Meredith and Owen get to decide how that relationship works. But Amelia doesn't compute that and so the conversation quickly moved away from Owen onto Meredith herself. It was frustrating to watch that scene because Amelia never let Meredith finish a sentence. You could clearly see that Meredith was trying explain her reasoning without breaking Owen's confidences. But Amelia very quickly turned that around and made it a personal attack on Christina (whom she dismissed as 'some woman' and Owen's 'ex-girlfriend'), Meredith's relationship with Christina, Meredith's relationship with Derek, and then on Meredith herself. So yeah, I thought the whole 'Owen is telling you stuff and not me' got completely wiped away under what was really chapping Amelia's ass, which was some needy affirmation that she means as much to both Meredith and Owen as Christina did. Frankly I think it was Amelia's dissing of Christina that pissed Meredith off so much. Really Amelia was completely over the line in her nastiness around Christina.

I watched the pilot. It was unfunny and the character's attempts at being frankly casual about race felt forced. I haven't gone back. Should I try a second ep?

I know, I think I watched it like 5 times too. Who knew Nikki had such moves? Also, it was filmed & edited & choreographed by somebody so obviously they had a lot of time between set ups and were playing around. Makes the set seem fun. The only reason I can think of that people were really assuming Abbie is really dead is because of that click-baity blind item by Tvline. First they hyperbolically compared this 'death' to WIll being killed on The Good Wife. Uh, no, since Will was gut shot and bleeding out on the ground and clearly, visibly you know.. dead. And then they even admitted the 'death' might not stick. And given the strength of NB's fanbase and the current ratings on this show, no way is Abbie being killed off right now. Outside of that are people really assuming Abbie is dead? I mean, not even Orlando Jones was really dead in S2 and the show could (and does) survive without him in a way it can't survive without Abbie.

Yeah, I am pretty much in agreement with this. The S1 purgatory 'sacrifice' really was just about character service for Katrina & the Crane family and really had nothing to do with the greater good or even herself, despite her words. Even in his S1 interviews Goffman would mention 'The Katrina-ness of it all." If you think about it, almost every 'sacrifice' people made in S1 and S2 was about frickin' Katrina. Even Frank's 'death' in S2 mid-season finale ended up being sacrifice for the Cranes because Ichabod and Katrina refused to kill Henry when they had the chance. And poor Jenny even agreed to be locked up in jail again so they could go haring off After Katrina. At least this one is about Abbie, her sister and the greater good of the town. I also can't help but think this is another deliberate re-set of a sort, just like Tempus Fugit was. A way to say, these are the reasons that first sacrifice should have been made for, not to re-unite Ichabod with his wife, but because if a person like Abbie is going to sacrifice her life, then it will be for more epic reasons. Also like I said upthread this has very different consequences. Unlike Purgatory which, let's face it, S1 treated like a trip to Cuba before the embargo lift -- you could get there but only if you have the correct credentials. Ichabod has no idea where Abbie is or even if Abbie is. He has no map, no handy Ben Franklin key, no convenient messages from beyond, and no assurance that Abbie is even alive. In fact he has every right to believe she is really dead. After all, someone else doing the exact same thing had died before right? Usually I dislike the trope of killing a female character to explore a male character's pain, but I am ok with it in this instance because a) I am sure Abbie is not dead and b) we need to see Ichabod's feelings for Abbie. Sure he is always giving a pretty speech about their bond, but we need to know what he feels about her. And more importantly so does Abbie. And maybe this is the writers' way of finally exploring Ichabbie. Maybe they are finally giving in to the undeniable chemistry and this is their way of jolting them out of their current comfort zone and into a more dangerous emotional place?

I got what they were going for with the toga party, but it felt extremely dated. Do college students still do toga parties and dance to Shout? Even when I was in college that shit was old. I think it would have had the same punch if the sight gag was more referentially modern, like maybe having them in Hogwarts robes and running around with brooms between their legs playing Quidditch or even siting lackadaisically around engrossed in separate electronic devices. As far as fight scenes go, I loved the one they had in the Jack the Ripper-off episode. In the parking garage.. that felt exciting and suspenseful and Ichabod got his ass kicked and Pandora came and gloated over Abbie holding Ichabod's bloody stabbed body.

Ha! I know right? I loved Meredith in that Mer/Amelia discussion because I felt that Amelia just came off as totally irrational while Meredith was very measured and completely DONE with Amelia's rant. But the shit about Christina was just over the top. Really, you don't try to advocate for your own relationship with someone by tearing down another close relationship they have. Even if i didn't love Christina this would be a super shitty thing for her to say. You don't callously and erroneously dismiss a long term, close relationship like that because your feelings are hurt. Somehow I don't think the underlying issues between Jo and Alex are gonna go away just because they are engaged. But she seemed happy for a little bit. And even though I am no Jo fan I am glad she and Steph have made up. It feels like they are allowing Maggie to calm down a bit. I am in the minority in that I like neurotic Maggie, but I do like that they've dialed her down a bit. And she and DeLuca have some real nice sexy chemistry. I love how everyone was gossiping about what was going on with Riggs and Owen and had different theories. Also liking how they seem to have dialed back on Meredith's animosity toward Penny and is allowing her to just work. I hope that there'll always be that little tension there between them for as long as Penny is here but I don't want the show to wallow in it and hit us on the head like they have. I do like how she basically knows what side her bread is buttered on and completely sides with Meredith on everything. I think Riggs is hot but damn if he isn't coming off as a major asshole, especially in his interactions with Meredith and Maggie. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're a hotshot field surgeon who can do a heart transplant with some duct tape and a ball point pen, but dude stop it with your aggressive dismissal of women. Although I did appreciate him telling Owen that he answers only to Maggie and not to him. God please Jackson, divorce her!

I speculate in the Spoilers thread on a way to have Abbie on screen each week, interacting with Ichabod by not exactly in present day Sleepy Hollow.

Ok so in this interview:http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/sleepy-hollow-abbie-dead-sacrifice-midseason-finale-1201645194/ there is this snippet. which makes me wonder.... One way to get around having an Abbie sized hole in the show but not having Abbie immediately come back and yet not risk her being separated from Ichabod too long is to show 'flashbacks' of other incarnations of Abbie/Ichabod through time as they are Witnesses. There was some early interview or such where the showrunners told us that this season we'd learn more about why they are Witnesses. So going on a journey with them into past lives would be very interesting. It opens up opportunities for Ichabod and Abby to interact with each other in different ways depending on their relationship. And in the present we'd see Ichabod working to get Abby back. In the meantime, I read some speculation where this might be setting up an Orpheus & Eurydice situation in the present where Ichabod will go and get Abby back from this dangerous place himself. In this snippet: Make me wonder if Ichabod will be doing some really reckless stuff to get her back. In the Orpheus tale, he basically made the entire world pay attention to his grief . Pandora often calls the Witnesses 'The Destroyers' so I am wondering is this going to come into play somehow. It seems to me that Ichabod needs to rebuild that tree. The only way he can do that is by using Pandy's box, which as we saw she let loose terrible things on the world in order to accomplish that. Would Ichabod go so far?

Girl you and me both! Not only did this kid look like Alfred Enoch, he had the same speech patterns. His line delivery was a dead on mimicry of older Wes. It was uncanny. And having said that, he looked like a right little sociopath. Did he kill his own mother? What did Annalise and Eve do? And BTW, seeing Annalise in braids was probably as shocking as seeing Wes shoot her. LOL. Naw, I think only Bonnie, Frank, Asher and Wes are technically killers. Annalise, Connor, Michaela and Laurel are all accessories and cover-uppers. When all is said and done, this all stems from Annalise protecting Wes. Which I find very interesting. Was Wes' mother abusive and is that why he looked so distant in the flashback scene? Given what we've learned about Bonnie this season, I wonder if Wes is another Bonnie to Annalise? If Annalise becomes overly involved when the cases she becomes involved in have some abuse at their center. I must say that even when you stop and think about the show it is utterly ridiculous but damn if it isn't exciting tv. The music at the top of the show and later when Annalise was exhorting them to all kill her was perfection and the lighting... it was so tense and atmospheric. Really good technical scene crafting. But then you add in all the feels....I did not need to be that churned up that late with the next day being a work-day! LOL. Also, I am team Connor-Michaela. Her calling him first even before Annalise, and then her jumping in front of the gun because on some level she thought he might be tempted to pull the trigger and she didn't want that for him, and finally her running after him and pleading for him not to have left her -- i am loving the evolution of their friendship.

This episode was deceptively exciting. The FBI stuff: I love how absolutely over it Abbie was with both Danny and Sophia. She was snippy and pissed and did not hide it one bit. Her confrontation with Danny was well done. I like Sophia and just as she had good chemistry with Ichabod this week, she also has good chemistry with Abbie this week. But I could not stop saying to myself over and over again through all of these scenes: Guys you have no idea what you are talking about. And when Danny told Sophia 'She was trained to go to war." I was like 'Dude, Abbie muthafuckin killed War!" Pandora/Doctore: So Peter Mensah is Pandy's husband. Ooooh, he is a tall cup of intense hot chocolate. I loved him as Oenomaus/Doctore in Spartacus. I have to admit, those too looked hot together. I read that And can I just say that Pandy can rock an FBI jacket? I loved her scene with Abbie after she killed Nevins. Shannyn Sossamon's acting choices there were great, especially how she continues to try to get into Abbie's head. Ichabod/Abbie: I love them together just so much! They have had some stellar quiet moments this season and their walk in the woods reminiscing over the monsters they've killed was fab, especially the shade Ichabod gave when he said 'Witches." LOL. I see you writers! And then there was this shot where Ichabod was kneeling at Abbie's feet saying something-or-other profound. And it was yet another tick in the column on why these two are perfectly cast and why their chemistry just obliterates anything else. I am content to let the writers tell their story and wait for Ichabbie to happen, but damn, scenes like that make it hard to wait. And then to top it off, Ichabod's whispered 'Abbie' when she walked into the tree was so fraught. I have no doubt that Abbie is still alive and kicking wherever she is and that what is gonna happen come February is gonna be Ichabod, Jenny & Joe trying to get her back. I am very interested in everyone's reaction, including Danny's and I need them to all just go utterly batshit insane trying to get her back. This isn't like Purgatory where Ichabod knows where is she was and they know the rules of place and he's even been there himself. He has no idea and that is what makes this more scary for them. Flashbacks: Yet again, no Busty in a flashback. Hmmm.... she was all gangbusters in the beginning and now... crickets! Hmmm.... Between this and the ending of How to Get Away with Murder I am really anticipating February.

SO Campbell actively admits that Ichabod is in love with Abbie. But their relationship status is 'It's Complicated' http://tvline.com/2015/11/19/sleepy-hollow-abbie-dies-nicole-beharie-season-4/

Yeah, I am thinking DA Smugface is all up in this in more than just a quest for justice Did she start going hardcore against Annalise after Annalise took over the Hapstall case? I don't recall the timing ... If she did then that explains a lot. She was busy trying to get Annalise any way she could to get her off this case? With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if Smugface is the one that shot Annalise because Annalise copped to whatever her personal involvement in all of this is.

Yup, great insights on the diversity of the writing staff. Do you hear that Matt Damon??? And yes, I love that Crazy Ex-Girlfriend has an API male character as the romantic ideal for the heroine. His name is Josh in the show and he has a white friend also named Josh who they call 'White Josh' What I also love is that White Josh is tv conventionally attractive -- very handsome, muscular etc. But Rachel is completely oblvious to White Josh. And there is a great scene where he is flexing and doing all this attractive man stuff and she's like "here's my phone go play with it." cuz she wants to him to buzz off so she can stare at her Josh. Speaking of Asian leading men, Badlands is interesting with both a bad-ass Asian male as lead but also with him having an AA girlfriend. The show actually has some casting diversity in the extras area .. lots of brown faces... but I am a bit disappointed that of course the people in power or the Barons as they are called are still overwhelmingly white. It is only the first episode and we've only met like two of them... so maybe they'll surprise us. But it does get old if you are going to re-imagine a world that as usual your power brokers are all white people. Caught the premiere of Chicago Med and the opportunity to witness not just two, but three non-related black women having conversations and forming friendships is totally available with this show. And they are all main, regular characters. And finally, been watching the Aziz Ansari show and have to give yet another shout out to it. The episode I just watched was one that featured Condola Rashad as an actress friend of Aziz's and the contrast between the experiences that women have when walking down a street and men have was so well done. But even more so, his version of New York's denizens is wonderful. The POC are represented very well in just the extras & background people. It is so interesting how numbed you get to seeing all white extras in so many shows so that when you watch a show like this and see so many non-white people just in the background it it kinda like an electric buzz.

"Time to get grandma off the tit. Bam! Bitch is fired." Oh man.... I love that they did a 'black hair' episode and it was centered around men's hair and not women's. Loved all the guys giving advice to Junior about how to handle his love love life and then seeing Junior following it to the letter, but in a rather awkward Junior way. That boy has no swagger! The Empire shout out was great. I Iove how Ruby cast Bow as Rhonda because she was a 'white girl' but no mention of that fact that she is also married to a man named Dre.

I have been watching Master of None and the thing that I immediately appreciated was the nature of the diversity of his show. One of the things I that I've noticed in recent efforts to bring diversity to tv is that it tends to be a single ethnic minority along side white folks. Or if there is more than one ethnic minority they still largely tend to still revolve around white people. it is rare to see different groups of minorities interacting with each other without an obligatory white person present. In Aziz's show his inner circle is an Asian guy, a black Lesbian and one white guy. And there are a lot of times the white guy isn't present when the other three are. So you'll have scenes with three different ethnic minorities hanging out. It is nice for tv to finally realize that yes, members of different ethnic minorities can be friends with and interact with other ethnic minorities without the need for a white person to somehow give validation to those relationships.

I would buy this is Caleb wasn't also completely hot. I don't think his money hurts but nothing we've been shown about her would suggest it is the main thing she is looking for. My read of Michaela matches what some others have said. I don't see her as a gold-digger. She doesn't use sex or wiles to try and land a man. In fact, it doesn't feel as if she especially trying to land a man at all. Post-Aiden, her sexual self-esteem has taken a beating and she is trying to reclaim it. Both Levi and Caleb are seriously good looking guys who both apparently have given her the Big O. It feels like she wants a guy who just wants her with no shady motives behind it. Exactly. I get the impression that Michaela isn't very sexually experienced -- hence the reason she didn't catch on that her fiance was gay -- and i get the impression she saw her romance with him as some sort of fairytale. Here is a woman who came from a lowly, poor background and wants to climb out of that and marriage to Aiden would have done that. But we have also been shown that she is also willing to work for it (she wants to study, get good grades, get access to the best teachers etc.). And, imo, it isn't necessarily money that is her motivator. I feel that what she wants more than anything is respectability and status. And in her mind to get that is to do exactly what rich people like the Ashers and Aidens of the world do all the time: go to a good school, meet the right type of people, and create good connections both professionally and personally. In the case of the Ashers & Aidens of the world, they do all of this to maintain their wealth and status but someone like Michaela it is to attain wealth & status. Doesn't make her anymore of a gold-digger than it does them, imo.

See, I don't think it matters that Jo genuinely thought Steph was lying. She had no proof whatsoever. And yet she went to Steph's boss and made a very serious accusation that could have derailed Steph professionally. I would still be pissed too if someone who was supposed to be my friend went and made an accusation about my professional and personal ethics to my boss that could have serious ramifications about my professional future without any real facts or proof to back that accusation up. It was a super shitty thing for her to do. Also it made no sense for Jo to think Steph was lying about this. I could possibly see Jo being suspicious if Steph was trying to wiggle her way onto Amelia's trial by using a story that sounded convenient (still doesn't excuse an unproven accusation, tho). But that wasn't the case here. Steph was removing herself from Amelia's trail. There is no professional advantage to Steph in that scenario. Definitely not one that puts Jo at a disadvantage because Steph had asked Jo to take her place. In fact Steph was legitimately doing Jo a solid.

I think it is another example of Jo misplacing blame or motive when something doesn't go her way. When Stephanie told Amelia her reasons for not wanting to do the trial, Amelia was accepting of that reasoning. But Jo saw it as a way of Stephanie trying to getting ahead by dishonest means. But rather than trying to assert her own self and get ahead herself, she instead goes behind Steph's back and accuses her of lying, thereby sabotaging Steph. It is the same principle with Penny. Penny didn't do anything to steal Jo's patient. but rather than going to Meredith and arguing for herself, Jo instead piles on Penny. Penny has no political currency at that hospital right now. No one except Callie will take her back on anything. So Jo's outburst on Penny has the effect of being one more kick of a dog while he's down. My thought is that Stephanie's face was some version sort of 'just stop blaming the wrong people about why you aren't getting ahead.' exasperated look.

Just finished S8. Even though the knowledge of the looming plane crash kinda hovered over my viewing of the season I did really like a few stand-out episodes. I loved the baseball game episode. It is nice for the show to just be lighthearted and fun. Meredith and Christina drinking from a flask in the outfield and basically giving no fucks about even trying to play was the best. I also enjoyed watching the If/Then episode the one where Meredith imagines an alternate life. Seeing Derek as a sad-sack underachiever was almost as fun as seeing Alex as some sort of preppy social climber. But yikes, poor Lexie as a crack head. And I loved the episodes with them taking their boards. The stuff with April freaking out was an eye-roller, but it was completely redeemed by Alex being the guy that who comes out on top for once. Was not a fan of any of the relationship stuff this season. Christina/Owen were never one of my favorites so their angst didn't move me. Ditto with Mark/Lexie, They never did anything for me as a couple. For me of all the people they had Mark with, he had the best natural chemistry with Callie.

Center Stage. I love that movie but wished it hadn't been so center focused on Jody. A series with a strong ensemble spreading the wealth across all the characters plus great ballet, back-stage politics and romance.

Oh I love Michaela and Connor together. if he weren't gay I'd totally be shipping them. But right now I am bro-shipping them. I need them to be best friends! Of all of them they seem like the two that are reacting the most normally to their fucked up situation. Asher of course is in the dark. Lauren and Wes seem like murdering someone and covering it up is just one more thing to do. They feel unrepetent. But Michaela and Connor have both freaked out in various ways and at various times. And to me they seem like they both have a soul unlike Laurel/Wes.

This is so true. I think I mentioned earlier that this is not S1 type of storytelling. But that doesn't make it uninteresting on it's own merits. The show is telling a very good story. And yes, kudos to whomever caught the whole 'dowry' thing. It makes sense now why Pandy got her hair did and was putting on her good pearls. She was about to be married to her God. And I think Sophia being FBI adds all kinds of dramatic possibilities for Abbie. Abbie loves being in the FBI, she loves the possibility of being a rising star in the dept. And she loved the idea of being Danny's fair haired girl. Sophia upends all that now. Is she the 'diamond in the rough' the FBI guy was talking about, not Abbie? Is she the one being groomed for bigger things instead of Abbie? And how much of the supernatural stuff is she aware of? Does this tip the scale for Abbie so that she no longer feels the need to be so ambivalent about her Witness stuff while pursuing her FBI stuff? Also enjoying how Ichabod is still very committed to his citizenship and saving the archives. It is a small little story that I feel might still have some bigger character payoff in the end. So yeah, I really feel there is a good story happening here that should not be missed or dismissed under the disappointment that Ichabbie isn't happening fast enough.

Oh, see, I totally feel this is within the realm of possibility. It is a textbook microagression. It is under the same umbrella as a POC going to Macy's and buying an expensive purse by handing the salesperson a credit card with your name printed on it only to be asked to show ID or to have the sales person make a mysterious phone call before ringing up your purchase. Or when you call to find out when a jewelry store will close and a clerk alerts the police and closes the store early because you don't 'sound like a legitimate customer.' These sorts of things don't have to be the work of a an entire entity like an airline or an entire store, but rather the just that one single person who unfortunately is your initial point of contact and who are laboring under their own assumptions and who unfortunately create that negative experience for you. I actually thought Maggie's frustration and the conversation from her end came well within context because POC usually just endure these sorts of microaggrssions in silence. Stephanie's world weary expression when Amelia tried to talk about it further emphasized this because, yeah been there, done that. Maggie finally had to express. I thought it was really well done because she first couched it in terms that Meredith and Amelia would most easily relate to -- sexism. But then she needed to acknowledge out loud fact that there might also have been some racism there as well. And the fact that Amelia immediately recognized that there might have been some subtext in her earlier interactions with Steph given that Maggie assured her that both Bailey & Edwards also were most likely recipients of this behavior led quite naturally to that conversation between her and Steph.

Asher's dance...Oh, my god! That was ..I have no words. But yay for Asher pulling the win for the team. Nate's abs. Oh, my god! How is such ab perfection even possible. I swer they oiled him up for maximum effect. Michaela getting hers with Caleb. Go on girl! I love how she asked if he was possible gay. Her ex- fiance really marked her for life. Damn, Frank knows everybody doesn't he? So...some questions still remaining: 1)How did Catherine and Phillip hook up? 2) What is their relationship? 3) What really is Caleb and Catherine's relationship? They seem super protective of each other. Now finding out that their father had 'relations' with his own sister, was that consensual? molestation? Did he touch Catherine? Is that why Caleb is so willing to protect her? 4) Is Caleb really innocent in all of this or are they playing the K5? I won't go into the obvious re: who shot Annalise, so I am gathering everything will revealed next week. This season has been awfully good. So much better than last season.