DearEvette

The actress who played Caroline managed to convey more personality, chemistry and romantic longing for Ichabod is just two scenes than Katia Winter has in almost two seasons.

I actually think white women watch for Ichabod. OTOH, black women seem to watch for Abbie. With some crossover, obviously. Ironically, I think it is Orlando Jones who is the attraction & ambassador of the show for the hip, young genre crowd the show really needs to thrive. Go figure. If TPTB paid any attention to their fandom at all as they claim to, they'd know that the majority of the viewers were watching for Ichabod and Abbie as a team. I'd be surprised if even 0.01% of the fandom actually watch for Katrina. And I think Goffman is part of that number. And given some of the reactions in the ftermath of The Akeda that I've seen & heard around the web on podcasts and blogs even some Katrina apologists & tolerators have thrown in the towel on her. My understanding is that the most desired demographic is the 18-49 age group, regardless of race. This is seen as the group that is most susceptible to advertising and had the independent wherewithal to spend the money. A show with a higher rating share in this group will demand more money for a 30 second commercial than one with a smaller rating share even if they have more viewers. Some shows will target demographic for their advertisers. For instance, shows like The West Wing & a lot of the CBS shows skew older, whiter and more affluent and the advertising reflects that. Nielsen does have a list of most watched shows in African American households and in Latino Households. My understanding of that is the share in those demographics will influence who advertises. And if high enough will determine how much money those advertisers are willing to spend. This is also important depending on what types of goods those advertisers have. For instance, AA viewers get targeted for cars, high end electronics and soft drinks. These are big money companies with a lot of advertising dollars so potentially that AA rating share is seen as valuable. Even more telling is that for the first time in like forever, Nielsen is ready to revisit their formula for ratings because millennials watch tv in so many different ways and it is believed that their old model is no longer catching the right data. The announcement of using twitter to also count in ratings is a rather revolutionary one. It is also somewhat of a game changer demographically because for once POC out-represent non-POC users of social media especially in places like twitter & instagram. A recent Pew study showed that of all online users, 40% of black internet users aged 18-49 use twitter compared to 28% of white internet users of that same age. I am personally convinced that it was incessant live tweeting by mostly black female fans that took Scandal from a little, no fanfare show that hovered around a 1.9-2.0 demo when it first started and propelled it to the it is now the 3.1 powerhouse it is now. Believe me I watched that show from day one and nobody I knew was watching it. It debuted around the same time as Smash that NBC seemed to be hyping all the time, you couldn't get away from ads. But ABC barely put out a few commercials for Scandal. One thing that makes me nervous on Sleepy Hollow's behalf is that Empire will be debuting in January. And if anything has a POC demographic in its' sights it is that show. if enough POC are mad enough at SH to jump ship that is where they may jump ship to. And when a network is looking to renew or cancel shows, they don't always just look at the raw ratings, they look at how their shows are comparing to each other and decide what to keep. If Empire does well, then Fox will have three dramas that feature WOC regular actresses. And if Gotham continues to rise and improve and Sleepy Hollow continues to fall, it will be in some real danger. And since Goffman is still blathering on about Katrina centric stuff I think we may not have seen the basement for Sleepy Hollow when it comes to ratings points.

You know.... I don;t completely disagree with her. I'll give her points 1 - 6. She is the only OPA left who seems to be just centered on OPA. Huck wasn't interested in returning and he is more preoccupied with his son more than any real OPA work. Olivia hasn't been about OPA since Season 2. And this season is the first time in the history of the show I haven't once said 'STFU Quinn.' But points 8 -11, yeah....no.

I like how the show has settled into it's own little groove. I like how inventive the fantasy scenes are and how Dre will always get bad advice from his co-workers. But Diane is my little champion here. I knew she would be the one to take the bribe, but I especially like how she gasped in awe and envy when Junior described being awakened from a dead sleep with a light shining his eyes. And Bow's truly terrible karaoke was fantastic because I am pretty sure Tracee Ellis Ross has a decent singing voice. LOL.

Yeah, that was BS. Not only were the Mills not the ones to hold his hand, the writers actually removed Jenny and Abbie from the scene entirely. Abbie at least got a reaction shot later. Mrs. BAMF Jenny got nothing. All so Crane and Struggle Witch could be front and center in the emotional impact of Irving's death. Haaaaaaaaaate. I don't mind Crane being there. At least he had a relationship with Irving. I don't even know if Katrina and Irving ever even shared a scene before. But yeah, Abbie & Jenny being removed was problematic and it is a recurrence of a theme. I wrote earlier that I felt very little emotional impact from the finale. But this post also brought up something else... the fact that Henry got to kill Moloch. Abbie has been Ride or Die for this. Literally, she rode a motorcycle to the Apocalypse and was ready for die without a blink. All she wanted all along was to kill Moloch. He was directly responsible for the destruction of her and Jenny's young lives. She was purposeful and always steadfast. I have no doubt that Abbie would have smothered baby Moloch in that crib and called it a good day's work. And yet she had to stand helplessly by while Henry did the honors in what amounted to a tantrum kill. There should have been an Eowyn-like loop-hole for Abbie to wield the sword and kill Moloch. The whole things tastes like flat beer.

I do take back my earlier assertion. Actual immortality means you can't die. But I think true immortality is a concept that most people find difficult to really grasp except on a theoretical level because in most cases, esp in fiction & literature there somehow is always a way to remove that immortality. Once you humanize or anthropomorphize something, then it becomes imbued with human traits, one of which is mortality. In the mythology of Sleepy Hollow, it has been established that Henry and Katrina being witches is what supposedly grants them their "immortality" except other witches on the show have been killed. Reverend Knapp was beheaded by Death himself. The coven was specific in their own mortality language: with Jeremy they simply "stopped his heart". But for them, Ichabod's presence meant their death. So that means that the show's definition of "immortality" is fluid and situational depending on if the writers want to save the character or not. And if killing Henry was not ever an option because he could never be killed, then the entire wrangle over him loses all impact as well.

But ...see... this is why I have a headache with this show. Immortal doesn't mean you can't die, it just means you can't die by natural causes. Unnatural one, yes. Or even just plain old murder. In the show's mythology, Witches are immortal unless otherwise killed which is why Henry and Katrina are still alive. But Katrina's coven, Reverend Knapp, Serilda of Abbadon etc. were all killed. So his immortality should have not shielded him from death in wielding the sword. Which brings me to the soul thing. I assume the fact that he had no soul allowed him to wield the sword? But didn't Katrina say that killing Moloch would release Henry's soul? How? Either you give up your soul or you don't. Frank made a point of saying although Henry owned his soul he hadn't given it up completely. Henry went all in. How does he merit a backsie?

So... what was that? It took me a bit to process, but I finally figured out why I was underwhelmed by this episode. Where were the emotional stakes? Yes, I am sad Irving died, but I am not gutted like I was by, say, the way Person of Interest killed off Carter. And this isn't just because this is Sleepy Hollow and there is a strong possibility that Irving will be back in some form. But because by making Frank so invisible for so much of the season and by making him feel so expendable, it was no surprise and hence had no emotional reverberation when he was killed. Which brings me to my big confusion. So how is it that Abraham is the Horseman of Death and could be killed. If Frank had killed Death both Abraham and Death would be dead. But killing The Horseman of War does nothing to Henry? Frank's death is even worse then because it is utterly pointless, since all he did was kill a Thing we never actually saw do anything. Henry was the one doing all these awful things in Sleepy Hollow, not this fiery sword guy on a horse. So in end all Frank did was kill an Avatar? Which leaves Henry alive and kicking and able to monologue with his parents endlessly. Until he kills Moloch. Big Whoop. Who gives a fuck about Moloch? His death has no emotional resonance. Gah! Without emotional stakes, the whole thing feels like a frustrating exercise in futility.

Beharie and Mison trump a lot of the issues I have with the show this season. SleepyHollow is only one of two shows I actually watch live each week. I make a point of it because I enjoy those two so hard. They elevate the material. I thought S1 was fantastic. Tight storytelling, exciting, and funny. How unexpected were the additions of Jenny & Frank? But so perfectly perfect. The character arc of poor Dead Andy was great. How awesome to write such a tortured character and have an actor like John Cho brilliantly bring both his humanity & his monstrous nature out? And It had a spectacular finale. The Midnight Ride/Necromancer one-two punch was fantastic. Everybody was on board -- and everybody delivered. The jury on S2 is still out, but still there are some great moments that stand out: - The season opener -- it was exciting as hell. - All the Ichabbie feels all over the place. - Minor characters that make a huge impact - Big Ash, Caroline, Joe (from S2) but also Seamus from S1. The show does casting very well. - Individual episodes that stand out: Premiere, The Weeping Lady, Wendigo & Mama so far are eps that feel very strong individually.

Pieces together various bits of spoilers... I think the strain between Ichabod & Abbie leads to the strain b/t Ichabod & Katrina. Or vice versa. I've read one spoiler that says Katrina uses magic against Abbie. Don't know how credible that is, but if it is true.... man.... So it could play out that Katrina and Ichabod decided at a crucial moment against taking Henry out, and it results in Jenny's death .. thus creating the strain b/t Ichabod & Abbie (...cus yet another Mills death being caused by Cranes) Abbie is like... all bets are off fuck you and your kid and goes after Henry. And when she is about to take him out, Katrina zaps her or something. Finally Ichabod opens his eyes and sees his trick of a wife for what she is and realizes that she would hurt Abbie to save Henry is just too much.

I agree the show was on an upward trajectory through Necromancer. And then once Headless was revealed as Abraham that was the CFD started. And that was the when the show started to lose some of it's lustre for me. My least favorite episodes of S1 were Sanctuary & Golem. That is also when a lot of disatisfaction creeped into the discussions on TWOP. People were upset with Crane's Manpain. And not coincidentally that was the first time I really noticed he got snotty with Abbie -- and not in a fun way. But even so, the ratings were still good. They had stabilized at, what a 2.3? That is a 4.0 in Fox numbers. LOL. For S2, I would have loved for them to keep the Masons around as sort of a opposite of the Hessians that Ichabod & Ab to call on for info and muscle. I also agree that a show can get lazy relying on witches. When the signs were on the wall that they were bringing Katrina out of Purgatory, i could not figure out how the heck they would fit her in with Team Witness. She was really superfluous, imo, because they had a lot of bases already covered and I didn't want them to over-rely on her powers and thus overshadow Abbie & ichabod's fight. After seeing that she couldn't make the twig move, I thought a cool twist would have been that the rise in technology interferes with withcraft. Some things they can still do (like Reverend Knapp), but a lot of the powers they have are now obsolete, simply don't work in modern times, or really only work in very old places with very old relics. it would have been a fascinating to see Katrina struggle with the knowledge that the thing that made her special and powerful just wasn't there anymore. Rather than make her a powerful witch, let her struggle to find her place in the fight given that she no longer had the advantages of powerful withcraft. I also worried that since we already had Ichabod doing the man-out-of-time stuff, adding Katrina in the mix would have been overkill. Again, a cool thought would have been to contrast her adaptation ot 21st century with Ichabod's. Whereas ichabod finds things both absurd and cool, why not have her find them distressing and alienating. And also show the Covens still exist but as jealous rivals hoarding knowlege as well as fighting for good v. evil. With the evil coven being more powerful because they are willing to do forbidden things to stay powerful. And that opens the door to an alienated, disaffected Katrina going over to the side of evil. Sigh. If they had insisted on making her such a big part of the show, there were so many more interesting ways to go than Princess Peach.

Yeah, I think only 'beloved' can mean Abbie, Ichabod, Jenny and Irving. And Since Abbie & Ichabod can't die. That leave Jenny and Irving on the chopping block. The only way "beloved' could in any way refer to Katrina is if they are using it ironically or if they were quoting verbatim from a press release from Goffman. I actually hope of the two it is Frank. Only because I would be sure he is coming back. Jenny...not so sure.... unless she is a witch in which case...hmmmm

Oh, yeah, sorry. So used to being on Science Fiction/Fantasy boards sometimes I forget that not everybody is. LOL ..... SFF == Science Fiction/Fantasy.

I would have loved this complexity of plot. It gives fans something to chew over, endlessly discuss theories, and decide who is a friend and who is a foe. Now the only real area of speculation is what is Katrina's purpose. That is NOT the type of discussion you want your fans having about your show. I am convinced this is leeching the fanbase of people who are not interested in the romantic underpinning they are creating. Now, this is all anecdotal with no hard data to back it up -- but I notice that a lot of the people who used to live tweet & comment on S1 who self identified as primarily SFF fans seem to no longer be around or at least aren't as vocal. I am also seeing that the gender representation of the fans of show seems to have shifted more heavily female. The show has always felt like it skewed a little more female, but for some reason S2 I feel like we are hearing a lot less from male fans. For a genre show like this to be healthy it needs to appeal across genders and needs to tread the delicate balance of being a credible SFF show that continues to engage SFF fans (who are rabidly loyal) and still includes some romance but doesn't wallow under it. I am sure that making the Apocalypse kick off due to a rivalry over a woman and then casting the whole thing as an 18th century romance novel was definitely the thing that alienated the core of that fanbase. I am so disappointed because I think back to Fringe, and that show managed to keep it's strong sci-fi underpinning, run healthily with it's mythology, do some smart MOW shows and include a great romance. I am baffled why they don't seem to be able to create that balance with this show.

http://www.screenspy.com/tv/sleepy-hollow-scoop-10-things-know-akeda/ #5 makes me happy #8 makes me really nervous. It has already been speculated here, but I am so afraid for Jenny now. I wondered during the season premiere if that fake out, wasn't just a little prophetic. If Jenny and Katrina were dead by Season's end and Ichabod and Abbie go into killer training mode. On the one hand that would be kinda cool because it makes the series go a bit darker (and Katrina would be dead), but on the other hand...I don't want Jenny to die. There is this one picture of Abbie looking like she is in incredible pain and Ichabod is holding her from behind. I just assumed she'd been hurt but what if she's crying because of Jenny? Please, please tell me they wouldn't do that to us? eta: found the picture:

By having Katrina and Ichabod married they already went off canon so they literally could do anything. The funny thing is, even in the original story, Katrina is a cipher of a character. She has no real identity and no agency there either. She is only important as an object. The overwhelming picture painted of her in the original story, is that she was a spoiled flirt who deliberately played her suitors off against each other. As a matter fact, Ichabod suspected she only paid attention to him to make Brom Bones jealous. In the end she barely gave Ichabod a second thought and marries Brom. So really anything they do to the character is fair game at this point.

The comments are fabulous. And I love that they are being said on Entertainment Weekly site, a place with a lot of eyes. But that interview, gah! So delusional.

I finally watched the episode on Hulu because it was a mess during live viewing.... Random disjointed thoughts: - Loved the action. This is the episode that should have happened around Ep. 6 rather than 10. Really underscores how pointless some of the filler eps were. This had more of a S1 feel with Abbie & Ichabod actually doing something, while Jenny and Irving had their own b-plot and Team Bad was doing stuff too. And Headless was back to being a headless bad ass. - Loved the Ichabod & Abbie moments. Seriously... no matter how aggravated I have been with this season, whenever Mison and Beharie on are screen together just being them something rather awesome happens. Not just them, but even their body parts. Ichabod's hands and Abbie's eyes convey more emotion in one scene than some people can in an entire movie. I totally forgive a lot of the show's shortcomings on the strength of these two alone. - Of course Jenny has a burner phone at the ready. I love her. - Can I point out that Dead Grace Dixon and Dead Mama Mills have been more of an intel asset this entire season than living 'Powerful Witch' Katrina? -Speaking of Katrina.... I just can't with her anymore. I hate her stupid Whisper Speaking where she puts a 'H' in front of every word ... seriously she pronounces Ichabod's name 'Hiccupod'... I hate her seriously fucked up wig and hairline.... I hate her utter uselessness... Notice how when she came at them through the mirror the first thing Ichabod asked was 'Are you in danger?' rather than 'What have you learned?'.... I hate that she is the dumbest spy since Boris Badenov.... I just hate her. - I find it interesting that Ichabod tells Abraham that what he is is his choice. He chose to be the Headless Horseman and it was his own choices that scuttled his chances with Katrina forever. And yet.... Henry has made those same choices. He chose of his own free will to become the Horseman of war, and yet Ichabod chooses to view him with more compassion than Abraham. Added to that, Ichabod had, by all accounts, a true, deep friendship with Abraham. They had an actual, quantifiable relationship, while Henry is a virtual stranger to Ichabod. And yet, we are being asked to understand why the Cranes would consider Henry as a person worthy to be redeemed, yet they are not extending that same consideration to Abraham. Speaking of choices... Henry also pointed out that Katrina chose to selfishly save her husband and abandon her son. Again with the personal choices, where one should actually have to live with the consequences. And yet it feels like the only person being held to those consequences is Abraham. There is such a level of Hypocrisy there that it baffles me that we are being asked to be somewhat sympathetic to this line of reasoning with the Cranes.

I don't think it was quite that casual though. If I am recalling correctly, Jenny stayed in the mental institution because supposedly it was best place for her to be in order to not be a threat to Abbie's welfare. When she became possessed by the Demon, she knew that it would use her to kill Abbie so she couldn't be out and about, so she allowed herself to be institutionalized. It was (apparently) well regulated and she couldn't get out without it being a BFD. I can see how she could still be apprehensive of the place, even under those conditions.

Wayne, at the bottom left of the post you want to quote there are quote marks, you can click that and it will add that person's post in a quote box into your next post. You can go into the box and remove the parts you don't want to quote. And when you submit your reply, the person's name will be appended to the quote.

If this was something the show was actually showing, rather than us fanwanking then it would be more powerful and we as an audience would probably be more conflicted about Henry on behalf of the Cranes. Unfortunately, that is not what they are doing, imo. One of my biggest complaints about this season to date is the fact that Abbie and Ichabod are not actively fighting Moloch. They are just reacting to Henry. Since they added on five episodes, then they had a lot more room to play with these sorts of things. As it is it feels like they frittered it all away. When Abbie & Ichabod found out Irving sold his soul and therefore had a connection to Henry, why not use him as a spy to gather intel? He's a police captain and presumably trained in interrogation. Why wait for 9 whole episodes to even make that suggestion? Why not use Jenny and Hawley to track down weapons and lore they could use to defeat Moloch? These two are world-traveling artifact hunters with a fuck ton of arcane knowledge between them and yet Jenny is practically a face on a milk carton. Why not actively show Katrina working Henry. She's made a couple of tepid overtures to him, where he ruthlessly shut her down. In fact, Abraham seems more susceptible than Henry, and that isn't because it is anything they showing her doing, but just because Abraham is still in love with her. I just find it unbelievably hard to sympathize with Katrina and Ichabod on the subject of Henry because the show has not convinced me that redemption is the best course of action. And not only that, but Katrina and Ichabod come off as incredibly entitled when talk about it as a course of action. Like it is something that everybody needs to do just because it is the way they want it. This is yet another place where I think the show fell down by having the two of them gang up on Abbie. It felt shitty and unfair, especially since Katrina had swanned in out of nowhere and did nothing except awake from a faint to make demands. If Jenny or Frank had been around to take Abbie's side, it might have felt like a more balanced argument, and again given the audience more to consider. But as it was, it was guaranteed to make the audience sympathize more with Abbie. Added to that, it just isn't exciting when your season long Big Bad just turns out to be a Big Baby. Ina show like this, you don't want to save your foes, you want to kill their asses!

A little spoilery snippet from TVline about new recurring character Orion played by Max Brown:

Other places I've seen the Horseman on the White Horse is called Pestilence. This is the one I was thinking of for Katrina In some places Pestilence is also called Conquest. And we have already seen a glimpse of him/her in the John Doe episode. I also think The White Horse would be a good fit for her because some interpretations also try to make this one more righteous than the others. that would seem to fit with what the writers are trying to do with Katrina. She can be Good or Evil. Depending on your interpretations of her motives.

This is the same Sleepy Hollow where the regular citizen library patrons are not shown reacting to gun shots or mysterious deep bodies of water opening inside the library. I am sure the workers of TPI are like, 'Eh, mysterious corridors, trippy lighting, cold spectres, abandoned rooms... must be Tuesday." I fanwanked that the police were given some a fairly wide open access for their investigation and Abbie interpreted that even more broadly. LOL.

Well given that Katrina has now hosted a demon in her body and he is giving her demon scabies, maybe she is turning into Pestilence. And instead of redeeming Henry, Moloch and Abraham succeed in turning her. To me that seems to have more story potential. That or just killing her off outright. Or if they are attempting to stick to story canon, having her turn on Ichabod and falling in love with Abraham for real. I just can't believe that her whole purpose is to solely be Ichabod's wife who is btw a witch they can call upon when they need witchy stuff and to generally hang around getting in the way of our Witnesses. If they are truly as committed to making her character be an integral part of the show, then she needs to have more immediacy than that. I also can't believe that they are pointedly showing that both Abbie and Jenny can do incantations for no reason either. That has to mean something. I know that there has been speculation that the other two Horsemen would be somehow Abbie related, but what if ALL the Horsemen are Crane related? What if the Mills sisters (and the family) were always supposed to be the demon fighters? And the only reason Jenny isn't the other Witness in this time is because Crane is here supernaturally and he usurped her place. The demon did try to kill Jenny in that car, not Abbie.