DearEvette

Another tv line interview from Tom Mison http://tvline.com/2015/02/24/sleepy-hollow-season-3-spoilers-tom-mison-katrina-dying-katia-winter-leaving/ I love this line about Nicole shipping Ichabbie:

Well I am going to be that person and say even in her evil incarnation, Katrina was not interesting. All she did was basically kill people. Oh random stranger bystander, here, let my eyes go white and "whoomp' you're dead. I love how Grace and Ben Franklin were so thrilled to see Abbie and were completely convinced right away! And I liked the juxtaposition of Abbie working on removing an old-fashioned nail out o a bench with no modern tools to jimmy a lock, while Ichabod was figuring out her smart phone. And of course the little glimpse of the old Ichabbie magic when Ichabod comes to "save' her after she's already kicked that guy's ass.

Ha. I love how in the comments people are like ' He's so full of bullshit" LOL.

Abbie Mills is the American Dream. Why yes, she is Mr. Franklin. That was fab. I need to process it a bit more. But the episode moved! and there were more callbacks to the pilot (Abbie 'playing with' the windows in the carriage, the starbucks comments. LOL. And I think it took me minutes to process that Katrina was gone. I waited to make sure it wasn't a fake-out dream sequence.

Here is some more Mison being candid, haven't seen this one before: http://variety.com/2015/tv/news/sleepy-hollow-season-2-finale-tom-mison-1201439685/ I liked this quote: And also regarding a possible redemption for Katrina (already with this?): And wait? What? I don't remember the finer details of Sanctuary or The Golem, but I thought Grace was married to a black man?

Katrina may may not die, but Ichatrina is dead. I mean, if Ichabod could forgive his wife for traveling back with the express purpose time to kill him (after trying to kill Abbie right in front of his face) ... he just isn't worth our time. So I am thinking, yeah, Ichatrina is done. I would go so far as to say they not just ignored the fans who enjoyed the Ichabbie chemistry but that Goffman et. al. actively set out to suppress the Ichabbie chemistry. You can not convince me that the S2 agenda wasn't in some large part about stopping the Ichabbie stuff cold. The constant racing to Katrina's rescue, the corset & jeans, the date night... all of it was pointed right at the Ichabbie shippers. 'See, look, this is what we've been telling you. The Cranes are in love.' They grossly miscalculated, they were so narrowly focused on the shippers, they forgot about the rest of the fans. Because the vast majority of fans of the show are not necessarily Ichabbie shippers, but are Ichabbie fans. Big difference there. They couldn't figure out that people watched the show for Beharie & Mison's actorly chemistry not necessarily for their romantic chemistry. They also forgot quite a number of fans are fans because of the diversity of the show and the the actors of color in supporting roles were not just tokens but fully realized characters. The sad thing is that looking back they could have made Katrina a bigger part of the show (and Hawley too) without sacrificing the Ichabbie partnership, without appearing to disrespect Abbie's place in the show, and without sidelining Jenny an Irving. Had they been smarter about their storytelling rather than just blindly reactive, Goffman could have built a better fanbase for his pet. Oh well. We can only hope we can put the mess of S2 behind us, we get a renewal and that wiser heads prevail for S3 and onward.

Some ppl responded with "eh" to the picture and he basically said "talk to me after you watch the scene on Monday" so maybe the screen grab doesn't exactly convey the emotion well?

I dunno. I still think Mison is really trying to say that Ichabod really is in love with Abbie without breaking the so-called prime directive ( i.e. the Epic Love). You don't use words like "in love with" and "hopelessly" and "helplessly" to describe someone you just depend on. He also says "vice versa" so he is on the DL trying to make the case that Abbie is also in love with him.

Who did that flack for the Cosby show come from? My overwhelming experience (albeit no internet at the time) was the on the whole black folks were a) happy to see black representation on tv in a positive manner and b) the Cosbys lifestyle was a tacit reminder that black folks really could achieve. Denise especially struck me as very realistic. She was always That Girl. You know the one -- the cool, pretty bougie one with the money and the best clothes. You either wanted to be her friend or you were brightly jealous of her. She might have lived three neighborhoods over where the nice houses were and they had a pool, but she definitely existed. Mind you, there have always been an educated, wealthy black upper class in this country. And by the time the Cosby show came along there was also a thriving upmarket professional class as well. There are quite a few rich black folks whose wealth does not come from either entertainment or sports and whose wealth is also generational. But it seems at times that black folks are just as ignorant of that fact as white folks.

Don't get me started on the FB page. Whoever does the FB page must be in love with Tom Mison. There'd be four posting prominently featuring pictures of Tom , then we might get one of some other character and then we'd get one of Nicole and Tom. Very rarely would we get ones of Nicole solo and it was rare to see them in succession. When even FB (which had always been Katrina friendly) began turning on Katrina, I noticed more and more people commenting asking for more pictures of Nicole. I wasn't the only one that noticed. The low was when the FB page did a pic of Hawley, Jenny & Abbie and asked some inane like which Mills sister was best for him. This was already after the Hawley/Mills sister backlash and after they had already put the kibosh on Hawley & Abbie. The comments were especially salty. LOL.

I saw Liv's anger at Fitz as very analagous to Cyrus' anger/faux quitting. They were both pissed at Fitz for the same reason. Namely that he was willing to sacrifice the well being of many just because of one. Liv would have been very happy & grateful if Fitz had somehow managed to rescue her while she was a captive. But he didn't do that. Instead he knuckled under to her captors demands and started a useless war that in the end did nothing to get her back and killed a bunch of other people. In fact she is right, in the grand scheme of things he didn't actually do anything to save her. All he really did was start a war for her. Both she and Cy thought about the compromises they made (in both Cy's rage speech and Liv's speech they mention stealing the election) for him because they were idealistic enough to believe he was worth the things they did. I don't doubt she and Fitz will make their way back together, but I do think she had him on a pedestal and this knocked him off of it for her which I think was a necessary thing.

i think it is a little bit more than that, though. I think Boo Boo probably did want Elle cut from the roster but only because she couldn't be bothered with Elle herself. I don't think she even cared that Elle was doing better under Cookie. Sure it was another win for Cookie, but on the whole, she just saw Elle as a has been and if she got palmed off on Cookie -- so what? keeps both of them busy and out of Boo Boo's anchor woman hair so she can manager her hotter, younger, better artists. I don't even think Elle being part of the performing roster during the Billionaire benefit was even bothering her too much. No, I think what tipped the scale was Lucious making Elle the marquee performer and tying it all back to his past. That would have given Cookie too much clout, visibility and bargaining strength. It would have taken Cookie from being a beneficiary of a nepotism-powered job to being a real power player in the company. It is one thing for Elle to turn herself around under Cookie, but to have her paraded around as this miracle Phoenix rising from the ashes in front of all these money people and Cookie getting all the public credit? No, that was not gonna happen. So i don't think Boo Boo cared one way or another about Elle herself. Elle was just a pawn in her war against Cookie. Which makes what she did even worse. It is one thing to do what she did to someone who was an enemy to her. But Elle wasn't even that. And Courtney made me feel really sad for Elle. So yeah, Anika is evil and dead to me.

Oh, Lord, that date was so sad. Poor Hakeem for all that he is a rich man's son he has no game. When she opened that necklace, and instead of seeing a nice, tasteful pearl choker or a flawless diamond teardrop on a chain, she got gold bling that said 'Hakeem" i just about busted a gut. LOL

The hateration of Tara to me is analogous to that mass hysteria hoodoo Mary Ann put on everyone in Season 2. I could see no reason for such unreasoning dislike for her, except for the knee-jerk blind dislike that somehow comes into play with WOC in genre fandom. But I lay the Mercedes thing squarely at the feet of Ryan Murphy. He wrote actual episodes that rather explicitly jibed at Mercedes' weight and her work ethic. I mean, come on, one whole episode was about her trying to find tater tots. There was also another episode that seemed to draw a contrast to Mercedes 'laziness' and sense of entitlement because of her 'natural' talent versus Rachel's hard work and go-getter attitude.

I have no sympathy for Anika, None. Zero. Zilp. I was willing to cut her some slack and enjoy a somewhat delicious rivalry with Cookie. But you do not sabotage a recovering addict -- one who has reached the point of wanting to go to AA -- by slipping them drugs just to make a rival look bad. Just no. I hated for Cookie to sleep with Lucious but I am glad Anika saw them getting it on in HER bed. She is officially on my hate list. I am glad that Hakeem and Jamal buried the hatchet. I hated them being at odds. Even though I think Hakeem is a petulant baby (props to the actor by the way -- he delivers on that so well) I liked the closeness of the brothers. Lucious grew a small heart there during his conversation with Jamal. He actually sounded a little bit like a loving father. Rhonda had been telling Andre to take his meds and he has obviously been ignoring her. Cookie and Becky both trying to mack on Derek Luke is fun. Will someone please do a paternity test on that child?

Sleepy Hollow is absolutely brilliant because in last night's show (The Awakening), Abbie and Ichabod not only bought one of the arbor day pink flamingos, it was in the front seat of the car during the shoot out scene.

Wait, what? Is Trollando jumping ship completely? Let me head on over to the Shady Hollow tag in Tumblr to see what's what. I think that represents the Ichatrina ship going down. He posted that right after Katrina and Henry confronted Ichabod & Abbie and blew up the car. Basically once Ichabod knew once and for all that Katrina was throwing in her lot with Henry

I have always assumed/fanwanked that there are two Witnesses born every generation and something happens that prevent them from meeting each other. Maybe the other Witness in the 1780s was killed off by Moloch & minions. Or maybe that Witness (an Abbie ancestor most likely) was somewhere minding their own business and would have eventually met up with Ichabod if he hadn't been killed. And kinda like the Slayers on Buffy, once a Witness dies another is born to take his/her place. Since Ichabod never really died, no other Witness could take his place. Meanwhile Abbie's line kept going and we see how Moloch tried to prevent her from meeting her destiny. By the time Deliverance aired the fan and critic grumbling about the show had reach that place where nobody could ignore that something was badly wrong. And yet Goffmann kept saying in interviews 'Keep watching it is all going to make sense, mean something.' I myself said "yeah but, the journey has to be as interesting as the destination." So even as early as ep 7 they knew stuff was not resonating with the viewers and they were shedding eyes each week. Sure it was too late to do anything about the eps already in the can, but by then i think only about ep 12, was completely done. So they still had time to take a leisurely detour that would put them back on the right road. But they didn't. They kept stubbornly to their route, ignoring the warning and danger signs. So In my opinion these last couple of episodes aren't the destructive route to their destination, the first 15 were.

"Time travel stuff gives me the ouchies" - She said in a Ralph Wiggum voice. I like one of the theories I read/saw -- I want to say on Star Trek -- where there are infinite timelines and when you time travel you create a new one that splinters from the point you enter the timeline away from the original reality. So you are still YOU but you have now created a completely alternate timeline that doesn't affect the future YOU because you don't exist in the future because that timeline exists somewhere else. And if I go , say, 10 years ago. The 10 years ago ME doesn't exist because from the point in time to which I have travelled, I have created a new reality. See. Ouchies.

Yeah, that was also very well telegraphed. Not that I think the writers get this deep, but for all that people were very upset with the idea of Abbie being mistreated or considered a runaway slave, what actually happened to her on screen -- and her reaction -- is something that could (and does) easily still happen today. Given how quickly she adopted the slow 'just minding my own business, nothing to see here' walk and then her 'hands up, don't shoot' posture is silently indicative that issues of personal safety for POCs & women in certain spaces is some ways things really haven't changed. And while Abbie is now a woman out of time, she has knowledge that will benefit her in ways a actual runaway would not have had.

True. But my original problem with any 'Jeremy is alive' scenario is that it puts us right back where S2 started... namely the still open possibility of Crane family drama to be revisited. New Ichabod Crane with no memory of old Henremy will have the same reaction to finding out eventually he has a son somewhere. To get around that entire possibility...ever... we need Jeremy to be dead. Never alive. etc.

Given how the whole thing feels slapped together then it is probable the writers haven't given a lot of thought to Time Travel -- but I am hoping -- that the touch to her stomach is only wishful thinking once she realizes that the spell worked and she's back in the 1780s. Maybe she is just presuming that everything worked and everything is ready to be reset and she is assuming she's pregnant again. I think it would be an interesting development, and good from a storyline perspective for her to come to the awful realization that she isn't pregnant. Not to go all Star Trek:TNG, but one theory is that time travel creates alternate timelines. So this isn't the same timeline, this could a whole other timeline created because of the time traveling.

Maybe the bell only called a particular coven? I didn't get the impression that back in the day Katrina's coven was evil -- they did kill Serilda who was evil. But Rev. Knapp wasn't evil either. In all the giddiness of Henry being dead but a pregnant Katrina still being alive next week --I think it is important to remember -- if we don't want a reset of CFD one of three things has to happen: 1 - Katrina loses the baby next week 2- Katrina dies next week 3- Jumped back Katrina is current timeline Katrina not 1780s Katrina and isn't pregnant at all. I like the last scenario the best. It makes the most sense in the grand scheme of things, after all she is the one that did the traveling (like Abbie) her memories are intact (unlike the 1780s Ichabod we will encounter) . And if they plan on keeping Katrina around the inescapable truth of Henry's death will continue to be the catalyst to her rage.

I have to give a shout out to Nicole Beharie for the last episode 'Awakening' especially in the end where she is in Sleepy Hollow circa 1780s. Her body language was perfect. It took her a moment to understand her dilemma and she seemed tentative and a little unsure. But as she noticed the stares, her body went tense & wary. She knew she couldn't make any sudden moves so as not to appear as if she were threatening. She kept her head down a bit, appearing to be...but not really...subservient. She conveyed a lot just from movement alone.

I agree with everyone -- this episode was a mess. A big, meta, 'You know why we are doing this, we have to to fix stuff' mess. But I didn't care. Because it was all set up and at least it is starting to pull the show out of the crapper. - I liked the beginning with Ichabod and Abbie in the bookstore. His lamentation that the 'Man out of time' was such a trope and Abbie's name checking Dr. Who and Marty McFly. It later resonates with Katrina who says she 'never felt right' in this time and now Abbie who is her own 'man out of time' when the show ends. - When Abbie ends up on oldie Sleepy Hollow. I loved that whole beginning sequence -- I immediately recognized all the callbacks. And the 'Sympathy For The Devil' was the cherry on the cake. - It is a shame they wasted an entire season on trying to make Katrina this romantic foil for Ichabod and a spoiler for Ichabbie. They tried to stuff in one whole episode what they should have been doing all season long. I wrote in some other long post somewhere else on this forum, that contrasting Katrina's lack of adaptability to this era to Ichabod's fairly easy one, would have been a better plot point than the incessant damseling. Added to the knowledge that a lot of what she can do witchcraft-wise can be re-created through technology plus the closeness b/t Ichabod & Abbie should have made her more and more bitter so that her turn didn't feel like it was 'Welp, I'm evil now." but something we could see happening piece by piece. Seeing what they can do when forced to do it, I am even more pissed by the missed opportunities in this season. - I was so pissed they didn't destroy the bell! Although I did love the utter frustration in Ichabod's voice when he tells Henry he never knew about him. And Yes, I too added the silent 'Dumbass!' - So glad Henry is dead and Abbie killed him. SorryNotSorry! - And yes, i think he is really gone. The cast has been making sure to say that in the interviews - I am so excited for next week. But I do wonder how it will play out. Will we get 'our' Ichabod back when all is said and done? They can't keep Abbie in the 1780s too long, so they have to come back, but what will be changed? Will Corbin be alive? I would love for Clancy Brown to be a regular in S3. Can you imagine Abbie's reaction if she comes back and sees him? What would be perfect would be if they manage to kill Katrina in the 1780s and by default Henry again while in utero!