Tatum

Do you think he would cooperate and leave his gun? I mean, it really isn't anything to him what the police make of the crime scene. He's already skipped bail (perhaps not officially, but his bail would be revoked based on what the court knows), and likely would have been found guilty anyways- does he really care if the police know it's a murder and he is the guilty one?

I would find it more forgivable if I really thought the end game was getting the Sandpiper residents their money, and Howard was unfortunate collateral damage, but I think Kim pretty clearly stated last season she wanted the case settled sooner because she wanted Jimmy's cut to fund her pro bono criminal defense firm. She hasn't mentioned it this season so maybe they are dropping that, but she definitely said it last season. And it seemed like embarrassing Howard was really their main goal here- I am sure they could have found a way to force a settlement without embarrassing him, if they are willing to commit car theft, drugging people, making fake videos, planting drugs, etc. in the name of their plan. I especially think they crossed the line drugging him. That could have really scared someone to have a reaction like that.

I would hope the writers are above killing off Howard just to shock the audience, and have a plot related reason for it. But I don't know that it will be legal/criminal consequences for Jimmy and Kim- it might be more about the consequences to their relationship. Which personally would be more interesting to me than seeing all of their misdeeds unraveling in a public way. I think after the initial shock of Howard's murder wears off, these two are going to have very different feelings about the situation and how they should move forward. I wonder if it's going to come to light that Kim knew about Lalo potentially being in the area. I could forgive a hand wave of Howard's murder/disappearance investigation if this is the writers' endgame.

I think it's on either Youtube or Daily Motion. The video quality is pretty poor though.

The only real issue I could see is if he is reported missing, or turns up dead, if any police retrace his last few days, they would be able to verify that one reliable witness reported seeing him throw a prostitute out of his car at the exact time a therapist confirmed he had an appointment. That's not enough to implicate J&K, but it might be enough to get police looking a little closer, and Jimmy did leave quite a few breadcrumbs in his early Phase so Howard could "catch" him. But clearly this does not happen, as Saul is still licensed to practice law in BB

I know it's just a TV show, but I think this latest plan was really over the top with everything that came together in a multi phase plan. I mean, working backwards, I can see someone saying wait, first they scammed their way into the country club and managed to slip an envelope of coke into a locker you were using (which how would they even know what locker you had), then they convinced a former client to come in and say you were using when you defended them, despite your firm managing to get them a very good plea deal, and then somehow they stole your car, pushed a prostitute out of it, and they did all this knowing you would use your firm's PI to follow him, which by then they had tricked your assistant into changing the number as their number, the PI was in on it, and gave you staged photos laced with some drug that would make your pupils dialate, then switched the photos out all so you'd make a fool of yourself during mediation? I mean, that sounds completely insane. Poor Howard.

Obviously this was written a few weeks back, and we now know what Kim chose to do, and this is the first episode I have ever not liked her. I didn't mind her when she was pulling her small time Giselle cons on people, and I didn't mind when she was committing mail fraud, and I had no problem with her general philosophy of the ends justifying the means as she saw fit. She was a complex character and one of my favorites. However, in the mid season finale she was really brushing up against the kind of character I hate, the one who always gets the upper hand and seems to feel little, if any, remorse or personal responsibility for anything they do. Her smug eye rolling over Howard's rant was very reminiscent of something Wendy Byrd from Ozarks would do, and I absolutely despise Wendy's character. Like, he lost, she won, why's he wasting her time and boring her with his complaints? I don't believe she's a horrible person, but her need to see Howard destroyed just doesn't jive with her earlier character. This is obviously deeply personal to her and I just can't see how he made such an impression on her, especially as he has attempted to reconcile professionally and personally with her and Jimmy. And even if those attempts were misguided, there was no malice there.

Really? That surprises me. I lived in apartments in MN and NE from 2002 to 2007, and it was just the standard. I remember locking myself out numerous times. Still then, quite a stroke of luck for Lalo coming around at just the right time. ETA: I think it's weird Jimmy didn't press Kim a few episodes back when he noticed she put the stool against the door. She's been even more tightly wound than usual and Jimmy just shrugged it off.

I also don't necessarily follow J&K being to blame for Lalo killing Howard. I understand Howard was there to confront them over what they did, but you can go a long ways back with that. Also, I do find it a bit "Hollywood" that Lalo has been skulking around Albuquerque for a few days now at least and picked the minute Howard chose to pay a surprise visit. Also pretty sloppy writing that Jimmy just left the door unlocked, and I think most apartment doors automatically lock when you close them anyways. Forgivable plot contrivance in a lot of TV shows, but I have higher standards for this show. ETA: I wonder if Kim will admit she knew Lalo was alive, to Jimmy, and how he will feel.

What?? You missed him as Professor Lasky in Saved by the Bell: the College Years? Where he had a brief romance with college student Kelly (who was his student at the time, not merely a student that just happened to attend where he taught)? Scandalous even for the 90s. I've seen him in bits and pieces- he seemed to mostly guest star on long running shows rather than have a leading role anywhere. He was the main character in The Last Exorcism which was actually a pretty good movie and he was excellent in it. Highly recommend.

I agree. Kim is not soulless at all. And while she's been grinding viewers' gears for awhile now, I think her turning the car around and blowing off the legal justice meeting to frantically regroup so Howard's orchestrated downfall goes on as planned is completely inconsistent with her character. I get that she is singularly focused and does not like to leave things unfinished, but this whole "equal legal representation for everyone" goal has been her priority for a long time. And I am not sure I really understand her hatred of Howard. I guess he represents everything she thinks is wrong with the legal system and is basically classism personified, but she has always been principled in her own way and this doesn't track. What I do think is interesting about Kim is that I do think she has the ability that Jimmy lacks to justify things to herself. She doesn't have to feel guilt that way.

That's how I took it. Howard standing there was a distraction. I don't think it was about eliminating a potential witness (although Lalo may have thought if Howard ran for it and got help, it would mess up Lalo's interrogation). Kim and Jimmy were yelling at Howard to leave, Howard was talking, Lalo wanted the focus on his needs. Plus, shooting Howard in the head that way would make it clear to K&J that he was not messing around. I am sure he doesn't give two shits what J&K do with the body or if it brings police attention to Lalo (as long as he can get of the apartment first). I'm such a bonehead! That totally did not occur to me that there was any strategic advantage to having the spokesperson in a wheelchair. I thought Howard was just attempting to be gentlemanly to his client, in way that may have been insulting, however unintentional.

Now that I know that the PI was a mole all along, I am absolutely flabbergasted at how many twists and turns this long con took. So, when they were arranging Howard's complete and total humiliation, they had to think, okay first, we are going to play a number of pranks on Howard which will eventually be traced back to us, but each prank itself involves elaborate planning and illegal activities which we will outsource, and the cooperation of no less than a dozen people. When it is traced back to us, Howard will inevitably hire his firm's PI company, which we have switched to our guy, and then we can commence with the actual end game. Which really doesn't make sense, because Kim finagled the judge's name out of her former colleague after they'd already set the wheels in motion, correct? I suppose they could have always planned to impersonate whoever the mediator was, regardless of how he or she looked, but that all was dependent on Kim being able to find out the name of the mediator ahead of time. I get a previous poster's explanation that these elaborate plans are part of the fun, but still. Interestingly enough, if the mediator hadn't broken his arm, and hadn't been in a cast, would Howard have put it together so quickly? Also, what if the mediator didn't have any distinguishing physical characteristics? For a brief period when the mediator was accounting for his entire morning (on which verification would have been very easy) I thought Howard was going to back down. I wonder if Kim would have used this to justify herself- Howard could have quietly pulled Clint aside or could have waited until the meeting was over to confront him with the pictures, at which point there would be no incriminating pictures- Kim was counting on Howard to steamroll ahead without the proof in front of him (which wasn't really "proof" in the first place- the guy in the pictures wasn't the mediator) and he did exactly what she thought he would do.

Kim was my favorite character, flaws and all, until this episode. She's been saying for the last two seasons she wants a sustainable way to represent the underprivileged in court, (and I know she's counting on the Sandpiper settlement to fund some of this, but that is a finite resource), and she finally gets a way to at least get the ball rolling in that regard, and she ditches it to stick it to Howard? I don't care how much she hates him, that went way too far. I had a brief thought that Howard wasn't going to recognize the judge, or would do a private sidebar with Clint, but no, he went full steam ahead. Just like Kim and Jimmy wanted. I didn't think any of Howard's comments penetrated Kim. She looked bored and unimpressed. She's already decided she's right and he's wrong, and this is merely the ranting of a sore loser. I don't think she wanted him to be murdered, so I have no doubt she is legitimately upset for that, but I don't think she'll hold herself responsible in any way for his death. He came of his own accord; she asked him to leave more than once. Jimmy on the other hand, I think did feel regret after being confronted by Howard and will feel responsible for his death. While I personally think Jimmy and Kim went way too far and deserve all the disgust in the world for this latest scheme, I wouldn't agree with them being responsible in any way for Howard's death either. That was really an unlucky coincidence, the timing of Howard and Lalo's visits.

Weird! I never thought of it that way, but in that picture, Kelley and Paula Deviq do look a lot alike.

Yeah, I am pretty sure her little sing-songy phrase was "I made out with a rock star" not "I fucked a rock star". I do remember the boards were speculating plenty on what all she actually did, but pretty sure she only copped to making out. So, really, only one confirmed guy she had sex with during her time in Chicago (I think she also denied actually fucking her ex in the bathroom). Cara was pretty split though between wanting to be sexually free spirited like the ladies of Sex and the City, and not wanting to be judged as a "slut" by viewers. I mean, did being called a slut bother her because she actually did not sleep with more than 2 men over a 6 month period, or did she object to women being called sluts in general, regardless of who they slept with? If it was the latter, she definitely would have been ahead of her time. I think Cara got a fair edit in general though. I am sure a lot of what she saw embarrassed her, but she was needy and desperate for validation. Other than Tonya's comments that aired, I don't think editing tried to make her look more sexually active than she was. If anything, it sounds like they were guys she was casually dating that never appeared onscreen or were even referenced. Tonya admitted during the reunion that while the editing showed a very nasty side to her, it was fair, and she really was that bad. I thought it was pretty brave of her to admit it and say she wanted to do better going forward. Which she largely did, until the mid 2000s when substance abuse and untreated mental health issues started getting worse. I do think Keri got kind of a raw deal. Every argument she had with Kyle over a 6 month period managed to make it into an episode, and thanks to Cara and Kyle, she looked a lot more focused on him than she actually was. I think she did like him, and she was hurt by him, but that doesn't mean for 6 months she obsessed over him and couldn't move on.

I still remember people on TWoP joking over Kyle's sad little boner when he gets out of Keri's bed just wearing boxers.

Did Cara have sex in the house with anyone besides Kyle's friend? I can't remember if the "Rock Star" was in the house or not, and she didn't admit to having sex with him. The only other guy they showed her hooking up with was her ex boyfriend (not the one she visited in St Louis) and I want to say they went into a public bathroom stall. Tonya said in the reunion that Cara would have guys in their shared bedroom, and it was always pretty innocent. I remember being surprised- not surprised that it was innocent, but like, who were these guys Tonya was talking about? Also, Tonya was the only one in the house who said anything about who Cara was or was not sleeping with- she is the one who told Justin, on camera, that Cara had been with 8, 9, 10 guys in the house, something that was refuted by pretty much everyone else. I don't know how the general public reacted to Cara's televised hookups, but the posters at TWoP were far less interested in ragging on her for that, and way harsher on her for the way she threw Keri under the bus in an effort to ingratiate herself with Kyle, and totally egged him and his massive ego and penchant for revisionist history on. Keri was also very unhappy with her edit. A friend of hers posted on TWoP (unverified, but who would make this up), that Keri had a great time in Chicago and left the house thinking she was on great terms with everyone and that it was a great experience. She even signed up to do a Challenge (this was confirmed, she was on the early leaked list of cast members participating in the original Battle of the Sexes), and watched the season where the entire second half would indicate that Keri sat around pouting the whole time because Kyle wouldn't pay any attention to her. She also had no idea how often Kyle and Cara discussed how "jealous" and "possessive" and "obsessed" over Kyle she was and was pretty mortified. She pulled out of the Challenge and never had anything further to do with Bunim/Murray.

Did she say why? I hope they do put it on! I don't really recall anything scandalous from that season. I mean, Kyle looked like an ass, but he was also 22 years old.

I don't really remember Trishelle doing anything particularly hurtful to Brynn- what did she do? I mean, Trishelle is certainly no saint, but I always thought she was pretty kind to Brynn specifically. Yeah, didn't Trishelle say she wanted to throw Brynn a belated baby shower or something like that? I think Brynn had two kids by then.

I would be really surprised if there was, but if she was just completely making it up, I would think Jamie would say so, so maybe it's true. It would just surprise me since Jamie's main issue with women was that they wouldn't just fuck him while having no expectations of any kind of relationship. I seem to recall him saying his biggest problem with women was they either wouldn't even talk to him, or wanted to marry him, and there was no in between. Julie, being so inexperienced and sheltered, would be someone I think he would definitely fear would turn clingy after any kind of hookup. I think one of the reasons he liked Kelley, besides the obvious fact that he was physically attracted to her, was because she said she did not like being in relationships (which I kind of doubt, given her two subsequent long term relationships with little break in between, but what do I know).

I may be wrong, but I don't think they were close at all during the original season and immediately after. I am pretty sure Trishelle said in Reunited that they had not kept in touch. Brynn was pretty transparent about being very jealous and resentful of the ease in which Trishelle attracted men, and I thought I noticed a pretty malicious sense of glee when Steven started to distance himself from Trishelle. Brynn also regularly mocked Trishelle behind her back, calling her stupid. I think they bonded during Reunited and maybe became close after that?

Slightly???

From the NOLA Homecoming Thread: I didn't see a specific Vegas thread so I will put here. Brynn's marriage lasted much longer than I thought it would, considering Brynn seemed to just barely tolerate Austin when they were onscreen together. And I am still stunned at the episode where Brynn invited Austin to visit, then tried to orchestrate a situation where both he and some local guy she was banging were all hanging out together at a club, obviously expecting the two men to fight over her. It backfired when Local Guy quickly backed off and moved on to Irulan instead, and Brynn sobbed on the dance floor- being comforted by Austin- admitting she was hurt Local Guy didn't care about her and was now interested in Irulan. Austin comes out to visit a woman he's interested in dating- who has led him to believe she might be interested as well- and has to COMFORT HER when she cries over another guy not being that into her. It's unclear whether Austin understood Local Guy was just validation vehicle for Brynn (Brynn seemed to base her self worth on how much other guys liked her), or if he was just desperate enough to take whatever scraps Brynn gave him.

I'd be pleasantly surprised 22 year old Jamie was capable of giving a woman an orgasm (particularly an extremely inexperienced one who would not have been able to give any guidance to the man whatsoever on what she enjoyed), but considering what a pathological liar Julie is I'm remaining skeptical. Jamie never struck me as someone particularly interested in making sex pleasurable for his partner, at least not at that point in his life.