Tatum

I just binge watched the series last week and read the book over the weekend. Those saying they would have preferred a more young-Jane-centric plot line would be interested to know the book is pretty split between 1986 and 2017, while the series pretty much relegates the 1988 storyline to Toni Collette flashbacks. I didn't even bother to read the 2017 passages, since they were, in the beginning, so word for word close to the series. Huge divergence in 1986 though- the series basically stripped away all nuance to young Jane and Nick (who is way scarier in the book, and also described to look like Zac Efron by an adult Andy who sees his picture). In the series, Nick actually isn't that bad (yes, he murdered the poor kidnapped professor, but that was unpremeditated and he seemed to feel real regret about it). They also show him choking up over the reminder of Andrew's death and being alarmed to hear that Jane might be dead. And of course, trying to connect with young Andy but ultimately letting her go because that would be better for her. He's rather romanticized in a way, and I am actually surprised the author was cool with this re-imagining of him. He is a bad, bad guy in the book who cares nothing for Jane, Andrew, or Andy, beyond what he can get out of them. And the vibe I got from the series is that Toni Collette wanted him dead because he knew her secret (that she supplied the gun), which is dumb, because who cared if he figured it out, he could never prove it. Also, when she seems to fear Andy's safety, that seems more self serving- Nick never truly had any intention of hurting Andy, either as an adult or as a child, and he certainly had opportunity, which she knew about when she saw her daughter holding that coin. They seemed to clean up Nick's character and really make adult Jane unsympathetic and young Jane as bland as possible. ETA: Also, I found it interesting that Old Nick and Young Nick didn't resemble each other that much, but both kind of resembled a low rent Josh Brolin- in different ways. I also didn't think the casting was very good for Young Jane. The knocked it out of the park with Young Jasper and Old Jasper though.

I'm going to disagree slightly with this. No, I don't think Dexter was jealous, and I don't believe he loved Rita. I know mileage may vary there, but I don't believe he did. That said, I think he punched Elliot to make Rita feel cared for. Not because it would get her off his back- she had already backed down at that point and may have been disappointed by his non reaction but she wasn't going to do anything about it, and a pouting partner never bothered Dexter anyways- but because he genuinely wanted her to feel cared for. I think Dexter wanted her to be happy, and not only because making Rita happy made life convenient for him, but there was intrinsic value to him of Rita's happiness (I mean, in addition to the benefits Rita provided him).

He didn't know how people "should" react, but I thought his gut reaction (okay, it's fine) to Rita was actually one of the best reactions the husband could give in that case. Too many men, even in this day and age, who probably consider themselves enlightened and all for equality between the sexes, would still consider another man kissing his wife without her permission to be a violation against him (the husband). The fact is, in that case, it's the wife's boundaries which have been violated and she is the injured party. Dexter seemed to look at it from a law enforcement perspective- Rita was the injured party, she handled herself well, the situation was resolved, there was no need for any additional action, and certainly no need to be angry. But Rita was so hurt and offended that Dexter wasn't upset, because in her world, a guy considering his wife an autonomous individual who is perfectly capable of taking care of herself and doesn't need a knight in shining armor to defend her honor, or considers her "his" property, means he doesn't love her (well, I mean, he didn't, but she shouldn't have gleaned that from his reaction alone). So, later, in view of Rita, he does punch the guy, but I could never figure out if he did that solely as a show for her (I am not sure if he knew she was watching, but I guess he would have known it would get back to her regardless). I don't know if Rita believed Dexter loved her, and I am not sure she would have minded if she thought he didn't. She was so traumatized by her last relationship that I don't know if she could separate love from possession, control, and violence. Dexter financially supported her and treated her and her kids kindly (at least to her face). That might have been the extent of what she could emotionally handle. I mean, I don't know if Rita loved Dexter either. Despite being together for several years, they did not seem to have much emotional intimacy and I don't even mean she didn't know about his dark passenger. It may have been a marriage/relationship of convenience and necessity for Rita as much as it was for Dexter.

The part where Dexter punches the neighbor was always kind of conflicting to me, because on the one hand, punching is bad and it shows possession, not love, but on the other hand, Rita was SO flattered he did that and in her world, was probably a lot of validation, and I always liked Rita, mostly because I like Julie Benz from her Buffy/Step by Step/various guest spots on popular 90s shows days.

Rita was the only love interest of Dexter's I enjoyed. While I'd like to think he loved her, I am not sure he ever did. I think he certainly appreciated her, and he admired her as a mother and caregiver, and I think he wanted her to be happy, but I always got the impression he did not consider her his intellectual equal and judged her for it. I couldn't stand the Lumen romance. I actually really enjoyed their pairing when it was more of a big brother vibe. He could have loved Lumen in a non romantic/sexual way and I would have been happy. And as much as I disliked the romantic turn for him and Lumen, I liked his pairing with Hannah even less. And agree with someone else who posted that Harrison's attachment to her came out of left field. And agree that "Take Care, Lumen" was one of the creepiest lines I have ever heard on a show, and Julia Stiles totally sold the reaction. Haha, we did crack up at the way after Dexter confronted him from the backseat of the car, they always showed Colin Hanks checking the backseat before ever entering a car again. That was a nice, subtle, touch.

Oh most definitely. But even if Tori was financially responsible, and had a great relationship with both of her parents- in my world, the only time a parent would will things to his/her children over his/her spouse would be if the kids were from another relationship and the living spouse may or may not share the spoils. I mean, we don't have Aaron Spelling money, but when my dad dies, everything goes to my mom, not me. I do think Aaron and Candy failed Tori as far teaching her to be responsible with money, and that is something that as her parents, they should have done. But I just don't get why Tori would have expected a huge payout after her dad died. A lot of his net worth probably consisted of assets jointly owned with Candy in the first place so prior to his death it was already half hers. And Aaron may have been a shitty father in some ways, but Tori's got to be grateful that cash is still sitting with Candy and not wasted at various Four Seasons' around the world for the last 15 years. I am curious what Candy is going to do with the money upon her death though. Maybe a board of trustees? I would never give that cash to Tori. You'd be better off just donating it at that point.

Should they really have expected a payout though at his death? It would have been different if Candy was their stepmother, but in cases where a spouse dies and his nuclear family is intact, isn't it kind of standard to leave everything to the living spouse? With the thought that the living spouse will leave it to the kids when he or she dies?

I just watched The Island as well, and I thought it was interesting to see cracks in Kenny's facade. At one point, he is bitching to a bunch of the women (including Ev, who has been bullied by Johnny pretty much nonstop at that point), that everyone is going to judge him because of what Johnny does. Well, yes, Kenny, it does reflect negatively on you when you align yourself with a bully and then stand silently by while he bullies people. Sorry for that inconvenience. And I don't even think it was just logistics, that Kenny worried that Johnny's obnoxious behavior would make him a target to be eliminated. I can't remember what episode it was, but it was during the second half of the season and Kenny already had a key, I don't think they realized yet that the individual game winners would be able to take keys, and even if he did, there were 2-3 people that would have been targeted prior to Kenny. I think he really couldn't stand the thought that people won't like him. For all his bravado, I think Kenny was one of the least secure people to appear on these shows.

I agree. When anyone comes forward with a sexual assault accusation, it's an almost guaranteed result that her accuser will do what he can to discredit her. Perhaps after being assaulted, the victim simply doesn't have the stomach to have everything she's ever done dragged out in public in an effort to make her look not credible.

Agreed.

It's been awhile since I read it, so I don't remember specifics, I just remember Holly giving the impression the other girls really had it out for her, and Hef encouraged it. I don't know if Holly took this personally or if she thought it was some kind of initiation since she was the newest member of the squad. Also, Holly acted pathetically grateful to everything Hef did, and the other girls who were accepting his "gifts" as their just due thought she was showing them up. At least that is the impression I got. Also I thought the late 90s GFs had way more freedom than what the GND would eventually have. I think the door was a lot more revolving and it wasn't always Hef kicking a girl out- a fair bit one of the girls just got bored, or got a better offer elsewhere. That seemed to be the impetus for Hef to limit the girlfriends' job opportunities and chances to mix with other people outside of the Hef sanctioned Playboy world. I do recall one of the girlfriends was "Tiffany" and I can't remember now if her name was actually Tiffany or if that was the alias Holly gave her (Holly used fake names for most of the women that weren't easily identifiable from the show). but omg Tiffany was a bitch right out of the Revenge of the Nerds movies. ETA: It's Tiffany Holiday and her alias in the book is "Vicky". And Tiffany....yeesh. While Hef's personal aesthetic has always been kind of trashy, her look was way over the top. On her best day, she looks like she is wearing a Pam Anderson mask- like she should be cute, but something is just off. She might have been pretty without all the fillers. I didn't. I thought he was just a friendly old man that liked young women and was willing to pay for it. Which is technically true, but only on a very superficial level.

By multiple accounts other than Holly, that 7 girlfriend harem was absolutely vicious to each other. I remember in the late 90s/early 2000s hearing rumors about one girlfriend putting Nair in another girl's shampoo. I can also see Hef grinning over these women figuratively slugging each other out for his attention and approval. Gross.

The always victim thing came from how I viewed her talking about the other girlfriends, not Hef. If Holly's book can be believed, the original girlfriend harem (so before Bridget and Kendra) were always picking on her, to Hef's delight. Holly never said anything mean to them, but they were always insulting her and trying to make Hef mad at her. It's a theme throughout the two books I read- Holly is nice, the other women she has conflicts with are mean. I am going to call bullshit on that one. The other women may have been the instigators the majority of the time, but I refuse to believe Holly never said anything rude, as evidenced by her petty tweet about Kimberley Hefner. As far as Hef goes, I think he's a creep who got off on controlling and degrading women. I don't think he forced any of them to live there or forced them to stay. Holly could have left any time and that's on her that she stayed. She stayed either because she thought there would be a payoff in it for her or she thought the perks of Mansion life outweighed putting up with Hef, at least for many years. That doesn't mean Hef is excused for being a creep in the first place.

Did Holly say that was why she specifically chose not to leave, for fear of retaliation? I got the impression Holly was just very overwhelmed at the prospect of starting over, and it was more fear of the unknown that made her stay in an emotionally unhealthy situation, and that the impetus to move on may have been the thought that with Kendra and Bridget each getting serious about moving on, her hand may be forced anyways and better to just get it over with. I think Holly is guilty of some revisionist history about her past in general, but I don't see her like, making up all this stuff about Hef just to stay relevant. First of all, from her books, the examples she gives are pretty specific, and she's also opening herself up to a lot of judgment for putting up with it. Second, she's been pretty successful in her post mansion life, both financially and professionally, so I don't really see an incentive for her to lie about things now. I think she probably considered herself a loser for staying as long as she did and blamed herself for allowing everything to happen and actually begging for more, and she's still processing how the situation went down and how it continues to affect her life now, and I just don't see the problem with that. I think Hef is far from an innocent, benevolent old man who just had his kinks here and there. If he was kind to some people, great. That doesn't mean it's impossible he was very cruel to someone else, it just means he knew what he could get away with doing.

What was weird about the judgey comment was it was made after Holly left the mansion, so there really was no incentive for her to take Hef's side. I like Holly (and I believe she's telling the truth about her experiences at the mansion), but it was a completely classless comment, and about a situation that did not involve her. That is why I tend to be so skeptical when Holly always makes herself out to be the victim of other women bullying her- I don't doubt they did, but I don't believe Holly when she says she never instigated anything. And that isn't even really judging her- I certainly made my fair share of petty, catty comments in the past, and most people have as well. I would have preferred Holly just to admit, yes, I wasn't always the bigger person. Instead, she is always the persecuted one. That doesn't make me doubt that she's telling the truth about what happened during her time at the mansion (with Hef specifically), but I do think it hurts her credibility in general when she never wants to admit to any wrongdoing.

Hee, yeah, I wouldn't put much stock into anything Renee says. Regarding Kimberly, I don't think that she can conclude Holly is a liar just because she never witnessed it, but I did laugh because I remember back in 2009 Holly tweeted (in response to Kimberly and Hef's looming divorce becoming contentious and Kim suing Hef for not following some of the terms of the prenup) something about hating "spoiled Beverly Hills wives" for suing their ex-husbands when they need money instead of getting a job. Hey Holly, turnabout is fair play and all...

Wondering this too. I remember Travis saying his dad was a jerk who didn't like him (Travis) but I don't remember anything else. Javi seemed very close to his dad but that doesn't always mean anything...

I thought this was the beginning of the end for Jackie/Shauna. Jackie is explaining that she wasn't trying to abandon Van, she just wanted to get Shauna away from the potentially exploding airplane (generally not a bad idea, it wouldn't help Van if all three of them burned up, and it didn't seem like Shauna was making any headway getting her loose) and Shauna didn't exactly tell Jackie to stuff it but she didn't seem too impressed or interested in reassuring Jackie, which Jackie clearly wanted her to do. I can't tell how realistic Jackie's character was after the 9th or 10th episode. I understand in the beginning, Jackie was not willing to learn any survival skills because she didn't want to concede, even to herself, that they were going to be there indefinitely, but you'd think after many months of not being found, of clearly noticing she was regularly overruled and ignored, she'd start to adjust her attitude. No one is saying she has to say prayers to the dirt gods, but maybe don't openly mock the two people who have a lot more influence than she does? Don't shout at the group over how fucked up they were? (I mean, fair point, but you're outnumbered here, Jackie, and there is no authority you can run and complain to anymore. Even in high school in the 90s, there was discussions of mob mentality and how quickly things could get scary). On the other hand, I find it kind of unrealistic how in other survival/apocalypse shows, the characters always become excellent sharp shooters and hunters, and develop all kinds of skills with ease, as if they had been Navy SEALs their whole lives. So maybe a teenage prom queen stranded in the woods for months and not noticing the changing social hierarchy around here (or not caring), and not deciding to develop any skills of her own is somewhat realistic.

Agreed. A very rich man wanting to turn women into performing monkeys for his own amusement, and a group of women willing to be degraded because they were getting some sort of compensation for it are not the same thing- this was never an even power dynamic in place.

That's why I hate him. Since he viewed these women as so ornamental and like basic human blow up dolls, who CARES if they live with him for a few years, working or going to school, bank their allowances, and then swan off? (This assumes they were still doing their duties of escorting him to his various events and participating in sex nights). There would have been another young woman ready to take her place in a heartbeat. You can't tell me he was emotionally attached to his late 90s harem of women. But no- these women had to be dependent on him, to the point where they were potentially locked out if they missed curfew. I don't think it was a bleached blond D cup woman polishing his knob that really got him off- it was the power and control.

Oh, I don't mean these women think they're ugly. But a lot of them are super insecure. It's not enough for them to know they're hot just by looking a mirror. They need to be admired. It reminds me of that scene in Shallow Hal, where Hal asks his friend how he would feel dating someone who he considered the hottest woman in the world, but that everyone else thought was ugly. He said he wouldn't care, because he would know she was hot. I think it's the opposite for these women- they think they're hot, but they still need to hear it from everyone else. Frequently. Whereas a confident beautiful woman (or hell, a confident average looking woman) would be like fuck what these guys think, I know I'm hot. ETA: I was just lazy using the word "hot". I am fully aware that a lot of women take confidence from things completely unrelated to looks. An average looking woman might think, yeah I'm average looking, who cares? I'm awesome in every way that counts :).

Who was that character? The above you describe is actually not as bad as what I was thinking. At least she's looking at her looks as a way to make money to support herself, not as a way to attract men to make her feel better about herself. I think it's most frustrating for me to see a woman who's self worth is completely dependent on how men see her.

Right to both. OK, I don't know what went through the average woman's thought process who posted a submission to Playboy back in the day (do people still do that now?). Maybe it was mostly, hey, I already know I am smoking hot, maybe I can get paid for it, but going off of a lot of early 2000s MTV programming (I am looking at you, I Want a Famous Face, aka, I Want a Boob Job So My Boyfriend Will Spank it to Me Instead of Carmen Electra/Jessica Simpson/Britney Spears) the women who aspired to be in Playboy/Maxim (those were the big 2) were super sad. They were all attractive women, but basically had no self esteem and relied on attention of men to momentarily feel better about themselves. And instead of like, trying to develop other parts of themselves they could be proud of, their thought seemed to be, yeah, men pay attention to me, but think of how much MORE they would pay attention to me if I could say I posed for Playboy/Maxim. The women seemed completely aware they'd be looked at as a trophy or status symbol...and they were 100% okay with that, because they'd be sought after.

It is really sad. I mean, I get it in a way, the competition is totally fierce, In its heyday, probably thousands of women were submitting photos on a daily basis. And the ones who bothered to submit were already probably used to being one of the most attractive women in the room at any given time. Even not getting cut right off the bat was probably a major feat. So I get the ego boost thing, but at the end of the day, other than bragging rights, the majority of the women probably didn't get much out of it. Maybe some women thought it would launch their careers or snag them a rich professional athlete husband (the latter at least, seems to happen with some regularity), but mostly it seemed to be a way for women with low self esteem to get validation.

Interesting! I am guessing Callie is the theory the actress would never have thought of, but the phrase "spot on" makes me think it's something a little more intriguing than "random Yellowjacket that never even had one line Season 1". But maybe that is it. Spoiler tagged just in case: