Tatum

Interesting! I am guessing Callie is the theory the actress would never have thought of, but the phrase "spot on" makes me think it's something a little more intriguing than "random Yellowjacket that never even had one line Season 1". But maybe that is it. Spoiler tagged just in case:

I'm bothered by her comment, if things were truly this bad, why did she stay? I realize she was talking about Holly specifically, but that's a pretty insensitive comment to make. Lots of women worse off than Holly stay in toxic relationships, for a myriad of reasons. I don't think it matters, honestly. Unless Holly is making up everything in her book, Hef's behavior checks a number of boxes of emotional abuse- he was controlling, manipulative, he isolated her and wouldn't allow her to work while she lived in the house, and he put her down and seemed to enjoy and encourage the other women bullying her. If it happened, then it happened, whether or not Holly had incentive to keep it quiet or not. Her theoretically deciding that putting up with the abuse in silence was worth it because she got what she wanted doesn't erase the abuse from happening, and it doesn't preclude her from talking about it now.

I agree. If Hef said, sure, Holly, you can live here for free, but in exchange, I am going to say what you wear, how you style your hair, who you are allowed to talk to, what jobs you're allowed to take (spoiler alert: none), and in addition, you are required to perform sexually on command, take heaps of verbal abuse from the other women living here, and deal with me calling you ugly and cheap whenever the mood strikes me, and if you don't like it, there's the door...sure, people can judge Holly for not saying, fuck this, but that doesn't mean Hef isn't a jerk for wanting to put someone in this position. The fact that women are in such bad financial straits or so desperate for validation that they will put up with this doesn't mean it's totally moral on Hef's side, because, hey, they could have said no. And I doubt the terms of living in the house were expressed that explicitly anyways. And people tend to follow the sunk costs logic- Holly probably already felt that she had left her pride at the door during the first sex night, and it was a more attractive option to learn how to navigate this world rather than wind up homeless in LA with the few hundred bucks in her pocket she managed to scrape together, or return home to live with her parents, broke and demoralized.

Exactly. I am sure Holly didn't even come up with the title, and I doubt she was trying to "slip something past" the readers. However, those that have been Playmates seem to be fiercely protective of their titles, and quick to point out that those that have been Web girls, or part of the college searches, or were in group spreads are NOT playmates. I guess in the Playboy hierarchy there is a difference, but no one outside of that world is going to consider it a dis that a woman "only" achieved Web girl status and not Playmate status. Case in point, what Holly's book title is isn't that relevant to the topic but Candace still had to throw that in there. But whatever you want to hang your hat on, Candace. There seems to be a ton of verifiable evidence that Hef treated some of the women poorly. The fact that the women chose to put up with it, and maybe wouldn't have if Hef like, worked at Payless, does not make it okay.

Wow, stay classy, Candace. You know what this world needs more of? People excusing powerful men for exploiting women, and victim blamers. Unless I missed it, Holly never said she was kept captive in that mansion. I don't think she's ever tried to claim it was physically impossible for her to leave. She can still be a victim- it doesn't mean she's a helpless victim with no recourse. If Candace has nothing but affection and fond memories of Hef, she is certainly free to share her own experience, but she can keep her speculation about how other people feel about him to herself. It's people like Candace that make it so easy for men to mistreat women. Also like her "burn" about Holly not being a playmate or a bunny. As if show titles never include misnomers.

Using the word "colored" is, I mean, even for a "not well" school area pretty shocking, but I am betting Cate, Maci, and Amber have at minimum said some inadvisable things (relating specifically to race, ethnicity, or other cultures) and this ganging up on Mackenzie is much less about moral outrage and more a convenient excuse to ostracize someone.

I personally cringe when I think of things I said and did at 23. I mean, I never "dated" an 80 year perv but I did lots of things Holly would probably consider beneath her. Yeesh, am I glad I was never on TV. I don't think it has to be mutually exclusive- Hef could be a jerk with predatory tendencies, and Holly could still be an adult that makes horrible decisions at times, and has a bit of a victim complex. Reading Holly's book- she's always the injured party, and she never did anything to instigate any drama ever. I mean, come on, Holly, NO ONE is that mature. I think Holly has done very well for herself, but I think that's mainly the product of hard work and a lot of luck- I don't think this was a long con for her, but she jumped on opportunities and was able to parlay that into a long lasting 15 min of fame. I certainly give her credit for what she has accomplished and I have zero problem with her calling out someone who has exploited women and manipulated them for his own amusement. I do agree Holly always recalls things in a way that paints her in the most favorable light.

I've only read Holly's book, but the allowance she got was a "beauty" allowance of $1,000 a week and it was meant to be used for salon appts and clothes. Hef didn't demand receipts but he did ask his staff to keep an eye on what the girls were buying and if they were getting blowouts/waxed/whatever- he did not want the girls hoarding their allowance, and if he got the vibe they were, they were either cut off or asked to leave. She said she was able to save a little each week, but it really wasn't like an income where she was free to spend or save it how she liked. Hef also said she could not accept the modeling/promotional gigs she was offered while she was living in the mansion. It's true she had no bills to pay, but she also had no way to earn her own money. The girls also did not receive any money from at least the first few seasons of GND.

The viewers saw Jamie go in and explain the situation to the reservation clinic receptionist. She told him to take Beth to Planned Parenthood. Jamie showed the receptionist his driver's license as way to explain that Beth Dutton would not be able to maintain privacy going to another clinic. The vibe I got from this scene was that Beth did not want it to get out, and Jamie was doing her bidding, however, as adults Beth accuses Jamie of being too concerned with family image, which makes no sense but is the only way to explain how this was his fault. Anyways, the receptionist explains that if they do this abortion for Beth, they will sterilize her. She does not use the word hysterectomy. Jamie pauses, and then nods and says it's fine. He then goes out to the car where Beth is waiting and says the clinic will do it. He does not- onscreen- tell Beth what else they will do. It is never stated when Beth found out, but I believe the viewers are supposed to assume Jamie deliberately withheld this information from her so she wouldn't change her mind on doing it.

I haven't watched this yet but will probably check out soon. I have read Holly's book about life in the mansion and unless Holly is lying through her teeth, I believe Hef was abusive to her. Not physically, but I believe he purposely sabotaged her chances of making friends within the house, was manipulative and controlling, and did not want her having outside income or relationships. I think he also delighted in undermining her and making her feel bad about herself. I think Hef seems like a pretty horrible person. He absolutely seems like a predator to me. I also believe that he was not this way to everyone, and that even the women he did treat in the same vein as Holly may not have recognized his behavior as abusive, which is why there isn't more of an outcry. There is also a lot of judgment on the women who stay in these relationships, so I could see why more women don't come forward, even if they did experience what Holly did and did recognize what was happening, even if it took years to do so. I will maybe buy that they never had P in V sex (which from what I've heard, Hef wasn't that into anyways) but I do not buy for one minute that she never gave him a BJ, and I would argue that if she simulated sex with another woman purely as a performance for Hef, it is merely just semantics to say she never had sex with him. By that I mean it's a pure technicality- she's engaged in some kind of sexual activity with Hef.

Yes, the series is much more character driven than I originally thought. I was just thinking about what we still don't know- who is Pit Girl, who is Strung Up Girl, do Van and Mari and Javi and Ben survive (because who really cares about the 3-4 who don't even have names yet), and why/how did Lottie empty Travis' bank account (and presumably kill him)?...and it's like-does it really matter? There probably isn't going to be a jaw dropping answer to any of these questions, which apparently was never the goal to begin with.

I was just thinking about this. I mean, the writers could have made him less suspicious, and I think viewers would have still thought something was up with him, because this is not a Hallmark movie, and if a guy randomly shows up just as a bunch of shit goes down- he's connected. But Shauna needed to be suspicious of him to move the plot along and provide additional nuance to her character. I thought one of Melanie's best moments was when she was telling Tai and Natalie that Adam lied to her. I mean, by that point, Shauna is full of shit, but I thought she was calling back to her legitimate hurt and humiliation when she thought Adam was pursuing her for his own personal gain. And a deep regret that there was someone out there that liked her for her...and now he's gone.

Well, I think the writers are full of shit that these post 1996 references were intentional. But hey, I am bored, I will play along :). I know people will see a lot of parallels between Angela and Jackie, but I don't see it, personally. Angela was a compulsive liar who was deeply insecure and tried to cover it up with false bravado. I think Jackie is more "big fish little pond" who was arrogant, and honestly believed people were jealous of her and was actually surprised to hear that wasn't the case. I don't really think Torrance from Bring it On has much in common with Jackie either, other than being not interested in school work and not having much of an identity outside of cheerleading, and not much interest in cultivating one. Although I can totally see Jackie saying, Hate us cause we're beautiful but we don't like you either! Cher from Clueless actually has the most in common from what I can see, thinking she knows everything and needs to always expel her expert advice to everyone, whether they want it or not. I guess in the case of Rose from Titanic, she is engaged to a guy she's not into at all, and her mother is super overbearing. I can't think of a single thing she has in common with Vada Sultenfuss, Kat from 10 Things, or Sydney from Scream. For Mia, the only thing that is notable is that it's an ensemble cast, with several (for the time) big Hollywood names, Bruce Willis and John Travolta, and yet it's Uma Thurman- alone- who is on the most prevalent movie poster and VHS cover. Kind of in line with Jackie not being the star of the soccer team but being the captain anyways. ETA: Kat from 10 Things did play soccer in the movie.

Well, the thing is, if you didn't watch the movie and just saw the movie posters or maybe saw a part of the trailer, you would maybe think Angela's character is the titular American Beauty. Perhaps Jackie's mom thought the whole movie was about how beautiful Mena Suvari was? If so that is slightly hilarious. ETA: I'm totally kidding on this- Mia from Pulp Fiction and Sydney from Scream don't fit in and unlikely prissy Junior Leaguer Jackie's mom would even know about Pulp Fiction. The only thing all these characters have in common is they are the main person on the promotional movie poster, I believe.

Hee, I heard JK Rowling was Not Amused by the high level of Hermione/Draco erotica available on fanfiction.net.

That's what I can't figure out. The screenshot pages show a lot of different colored pens and drawings of popcorn buckets and other illustrations to theme the written lists. If some production assistant created that- that was a lot of work (way more work than googling "most popular movies 1995-1996). It's like they grabbed the actual diary of a 12 year old circa 2001, added Shauna's name to the journal entry, and called it good. I have a hard time believing, even if Shauna is consciously trying to imitate a tween Jackie, that her character would ever be able to be so like, bubblegum-ish. I'd have an easier time believing Jackie's crazy mother wrote it. Actually, Jackie's mom would be the type to think Angela from American Beauty was aspirational.

I do! I never read it though, I liked Teen and YM and eventually Seventeen much better. Sassy was a little more fashion focused I think, which was never a huge interest of mine. Fun tidbit about me, since Jackie's diary references Scream- Rose McGowan was my idol in the late 90s, and my username here (all the way back when Television Without Pity was Mighty Big TV in the late 90s) is a nod to her Scream character.

So, according to Wikipedia, the Spice Girls did come to LA in 1995 to meet with record executives, so it's possible Van and Tai would be aware of their existence, but they didn't record any albums until mid 1996. That said, I am a little surprised Van would have an opinion on them in any time period. Clearly, a large number of people were listening to them, based on record/merchandising/ticket sales, but no one in my school would cop to liking them :). I remember in 1997 either Cracked or Mad magazine did an entire issue devoted to making fun of the Spice Girls, which we all read gleefully.

I JUST saw an article on this! They said it was not a mistake, but we will have to wait and find out why not. Given that someone noticed the Spice Girls reference within the episode taking place in 1996 (technically the group formed in 1994 but did not have a single (in England) until summer 1996, and that's quite a reach that Van and Tai would have known about them before Wannabe was released, enough to have opinions on who is underrated)...I am little inclined to think the writers are just saving face on this one and are now going to back into the journal, vs. purposely putting in the post 1996 references and hope an eagle eyed viewer noticed it. https://screenrant.com/yellowjackets-jackie-movie-journal-no-mistake-response/

So, if Shauna had not killed Adam, but found out that 1. Jeff was not cheating on her, and actually did still love her, and 2. Jeff was the blackmailer and Adam was guilty of no more than possibly being a rubbernecker but did legitimately like her, and all the cards were on the table and she had to choose...who do you guys think she would have picked? I still think she would have chosen Jeff.

Good point. This is actually I think a fairly common dynamic for high school friendships (and sometimes post high school). One person is the really bossy, outspoken, sometimes tactless one, who does not like being challenged and does not respond well when it happens, and the more easygoing, or fearful of confrontation one, tends to just go along with the first one. It happens in romantic relationships as well. Sometimes these evolve into a more healthy dynamic, sometimes they turn toxic. And when you have someone like Shauna, who is capable of a lot of passive aggressive rebellion/retaliation...things can go REALLY sideways.

That, and I am not sure she really learned enough from it to not repeat the cycle a few more times.

Ah. Yeah, Shauna better hope he stays buried. ETA: if DNA can be used from a torso, then with or without the tattoo, I think Misty was wrong to be so cavalier about the possibility of the body being discovered, funny as it was.

You are right, I forgot about him:). I was thinking the cops may strongly suspect Shauna, but if they couldn't legally identify the body (beyond the family saying the tattoo matched) they couldn't come after her for murder. But you are right, Jeff would crack in a minute and admit everything.

How would that work though? Let's say Adam's torso is quickly dug up, and his family confirms that yes, the back tattoos are an exact match for their missing family member. Without the head or hands, even if the family knows this is Adam, can anyone legally come after Shauna?