Tatum

I just watched The Island as well, and I thought it was interesting to see cracks in Kenny's facade. At one point, he is bitching to a bunch of the women (including Ev, who has been bullied by Johnny pretty much nonstop at that point), that everyone is going to judge him because of what Johnny does. Well, yes, Kenny, it does reflect negatively on you when you align yourself with a bully and then stand silently by while he bullies people. Sorry for that inconvenience. And I don't even think it was just logistics, that Kenny worried that Johnny's obnoxious behavior would make him a target to be eliminated. I can't remember what episode it was, but it was during the second half of the season and Kenny already had a key, I don't think they realized yet that the individual game winners would be able to take keys, and even if he did, there were 2-3 people that would have been targeted prior to Kenny. I think he really couldn't stand the thought that people won't like him. For all his bravado, I think Kenny was one of the least secure people to appear on these shows.

I agree. When anyone comes forward with a sexual assault accusation, it's an almost guaranteed result that her accuser will do what he can to discredit her. Perhaps after being assaulted, the victim simply doesn't have the stomach to have everything she's ever done dragged out in public in an effort to make her look not credible.

Agreed.

It's been awhile since I read it, so I don't remember specifics, I just remember Holly giving the impression the other girls really had it out for her, and Hef encouraged it. I don't know if Holly took this personally or if she thought it was some kind of initiation since she was the newest member of the squad. Also, Holly acted pathetically grateful to everything Hef did, and the other girls who were accepting his "gifts" as their just due thought she was showing them up. At least that is the impression I got. Also I thought the late 90s GFs had way more freedom than what the GND would eventually have. I think the door was a lot more revolving and it wasn't always Hef kicking a girl out- a fair bit one of the girls just got bored, or got a better offer elsewhere. That seemed to be the impetus for Hef to limit the girlfriends' job opportunities and chances to mix with other people outside of the Hef sanctioned Playboy world. I do recall one of the girlfriends was "Tiffany" and I can't remember now if her name was actually Tiffany or if that was the alias Holly gave her (Holly used fake names for most of the women that weren't easily identifiable from the show). but omg Tiffany was a bitch right out of the Revenge of the Nerds movies. ETA: It's Tiffany Holiday and her alias in the book is "Vicky". And Tiffany....yeesh. While Hef's personal aesthetic has always been kind of trashy, her look was way over the top. On her best day, she looks like she is wearing a Pam Anderson mask- like she should be cute, but something is just off. She might have been pretty without all the fillers. I didn't. I thought he was just a friendly old man that liked young women and was willing to pay for it. Which is technically true, but only on a very superficial level.

By multiple accounts other than Holly, that 7 girlfriend harem was absolutely vicious to each other. I remember in the late 90s/early 2000s hearing rumors about one girlfriend putting Nair in another girl's shampoo. I can also see Hef grinning over these women figuratively slugging each other out for his attention and approval. Gross.

The always victim thing came from how I viewed her talking about the other girlfriends, not Hef. If Holly's book can be believed, the original girlfriend harem (so before Bridget and Kendra) were always picking on her, to Hef's delight. Holly never said anything mean to them, but they were always insulting her and trying to make Hef mad at her. It's a theme throughout the two books I read- Holly is nice, the other women she has conflicts with are mean. I am going to call bullshit on that one. The other women may have been the instigators the majority of the time, but I refuse to believe Holly never said anything rude, as evidenced by her petty tweet about Kimberley Hefner. As far as Hef goes, I think he's a creep who got off on controlling and degrading women. I don't think he forced any of them to live there or forced them to stay. Holly could have left any time and that's on her that she stayed. She stayed either because she thought there would be a payoff in it for her or she thought the perks of Mansion life outweighed putting up with Hef, at least for many years. That doesn't mean Hef is excused for being a creep in the first place.

Did Holly say that was why she specifically chose not to leave, for fear of retaliation? I got the impression Holly was just very overwhelmed at the prospect of starting over, and it was more fear of the unknown that made her stay in an emotionally unhealthy situation, and that the impetus to move on may have been the thought that with Kendra and Bridget each getting serious about moving on, her hand may be forced anyways and better to just get it over with. I think Holly is guilty of some revisionist history about her past in general, but I don't see her like, making up all this stuff about Hef just to stay relevant. First of all, from her books, the examples she gives are pretty specific, and she's also opening herself up to a lot of judgment for putting up with it. Second, she's been pretty successful in her post mansion life, both financially and professionally, so I don't really see an incentive for her to lie about things now. I think she probably considered herself a loser for staying as long as she did and blamed herself for allowing everything to happen and actually begging for more, and she's still processing how the situation went down and how it continues to affect her life now, and I just don't see the problem with that. I think Hef is far from an innocent, benevolent old man who just had his kinks here and there. If he was kind to some people, great. That doesn't mean it's impossible he was very cruel to someone else, it just means he knew what he could get away with doing.

What was weird about the judgey comment was it was made after Holly left the mansion, so there really was no incentive for her to take Hef's side. I like Holly (and I believe she's telling the truth about her experiences at the mansion), but it was a completely classless comment, and about a situation that did not involve her. That is why I tend to be so skeptical when Holly always makes herself out to be the victim of other women bullying her- I don't doubt they did, but I don't believe Holly when she says she never instigated anything. And that isn't even really judging her- I certainly made my fair share of petty, catty comments in the past, and most people have as well. I would have preferred Holly just to admit, yes, I wasn't always the bigger person. Instead, she is always the persecuted one. That doesn't make me doubt that she's telling the truth about what happened during her time at the mansion (with Hef specifically), but I do think it hurts her credibility in general when she never wants to admit to any wrongdoing.

Hee, yeah, I wouldn't put much stock into anything Renee says. Regarding Kimberly, I don't think that she can conclude Holly is a liar just because she never witnessed it, but I did laugh because I remember back in 2009 Holly tweeted (in response to Kimberly and Hef's looming divorce becoming contentious and Kim suing Hef for not following some of the terms of the prenup) something about hating "spoiled Beverly Hills wives" for suing their ex-husbands when they need money instead of getting a job. Hey Holly, turnabout is fair play and all...

Wondering this too. I remember Travis saying his dad was a jerk who didn't like him (Travis) but I don't remember anything else. Javi seemed very close to his dad but that doesn't always mean anything...

I thought this was the beginning of the end for Jackie/Shauna. Jackie is explaining that she wasn't trying to abandon Van, she just wanted to get Shauna away from the potentially exploding airplane (generally not a bad idea, it wouldn't help Van if all three of them burned up, and it didn't seem like Shauna was making any headway getting her loose) and Shauna didn't exactly tell Jackie to stuff it but she didn't seem too impressed or interested in reassuring Jackie, which Jackie clearly wanted her to do. I can't tell how realistic Jackie's character was after the 9th or 10th episode. I understand in the beginning, Jackie was not willing to learn any survival skills because she didn't want to concede, even to herself, that they were going to be there indefinitely, but you'd think after many months of not being found, of clearly noticing she was regularly overruled and ignored, she'd start to adjust her attitude. No one is saying she has to say prayers to the dirt gods, but maybe don't openly mock the two people who have a lot more influence than she does? Don't shout at the group over how fucked up they were? (I mean, fair point, but you're outnumbered here, Jackie, and there is no authority you can run and complain to anymore. Even in high school in the 90s, there was discussions of mob mentality and how quickly things could get scary). On the other hand, I find it kind of unrealistic how in other survival/apocalypse shows, the characters always become excellent sharp shooters and hunters, and develop all kinds of skills with ease, as if they had been Navy SEALs their whole lives. So maybe a teenage prom queen stranded in the woods for months and not noticing the changing social hierarchy around here (or not caring), and not deciding to develop any skills of her own is somewhat realistic.

Agreed. A very rich man wanting to turn women into performing monkeys for his own amusement, and a group of women willing to be degraded because they were getting some sort of compensation for it are not the same thing- this was never an even power dynamic in place.

That's why I hate him. Since he viewed these women as so ornamental and like basic human blow up dolls, who CARES if they live with him for a few years, working or going to school, bank their allowances, and then swan off? (This assumes they were still doing their duties of escorting him to his various events and participating in sex nights). There would have been another young woman ready to take her place in a heartbeat. You can't tell me he was emotionally attached to his late 90s harem of women. But no- these women had to be dependent on him, to the point where they were potentially locked out if they missed curfew. I don't think it was a bleached blond D cup woman polishing his knob that really got him off- it was the power and control.

Oh, I don't mean these women think they're ugly. But a lot of them are super insecure. It's not enough for them to know they're hot just by looking a mirror. They need to be admired. It reminds me of that scene in Shallow Hal, where Hal asks his friend how he would feel dating someone who he considered the hottest woman in the world, but that everyone else thought was ugly. He said he wouldn't care, because he would know she was hot. I think it's the opposite for these women- they think they're hot, but they still need to hear it from everyone else. Frequently. Whereas a confident beautiful woman (or hell, a confident average looking woman) would be like fuck what these guys think, I know I'm hot. ETA: I was just lazy using the word "hot". I am fully aware that a lot of women take confidence from things completely unrelated to looks. An average looking woman might think, yeah I'm average looking, who cares? I'm awesome in every way that counts :).

Who was that character? The above you describe is actually not as bad as what I was thinking. At least she's looking at her looks as a way to make money to support herself, not as a way to attract men to make her feel better about herself. I think it's most frustrating for me to see a woman who's self worth is completely dependent on how men see her.

Right to both. OK, I don't know what went through the average woman's thought process who posted a submission to Playboy back in the day (do people still do that now?). Maybe it was mostly, hey, I already know I am smoking hot, maybe I can get paid for it, but going off of a lot of early 2000s MTV programming (I am looking at you, I Want a Famous Face, aka, I Want a Boob Job So My Boyfriend Will Spank it to Me Instead of Carmen Electra/Jessica Simpson/Britney Spears) the women who aspired to be in Playboy/Maxim (those were the big 2) were super sad. They were all attractive women, but basically had no self esteem and relied on attention of men to momentarily feel better about themselves. And instead of like, trying to develop other parts of themselves they could be proud of, their thought seemed to be, yeah, men pay attention to me, but think of how much MORE they would pay attention to me if I could say I posed for Playboy/Maxim. The women seemed completely aware they'd be looked at as a trophy or status symbol...and they were 100% okay with that, because they'd be sought after.

It is really sad. I mean, I get it in a way, the competition is totally fierce, In its heyday, probably thousands of women were submitting photos on a daily basis. And the ones who bothered to submit were already probably used to being one of the most attractive women in the room at any given time. Even not getting cut right off the bat was probably a major feat. So I get the ego boost thing, but at the end of the day, other than bragging rights, the majority of the women probably didn't get much out of it. Maybe some women thought it would launch their careers or snag them a rich professional athlete husband (the latter at least, seems to happen with some regularity), but mostly it seemed to be a way for women with low self esteem to get validation.

Interesting! I am guessing Callie is the theory the actress would never have thought of, but the phrase "spot on" makes me think it's something a little more intriguing than "random Yellowjacket that never even had one line Season 1". But maybe that is it. Spoiler tagged just in case:

I'm bothered by her comment, if things were truly this bad, why did she stay? I realize she was talking about Holly specifically, but that's a pretty insensitive comment to make. Lots of women worse off than Holly stay in toxic relationships, for a myriad of reasons. I don't think it matters, honestly. Unless Holly is making up everything in her book, Hef's behavior checks a number of boxes of emotional abuse- he was controlling, manipulative, he isolated her and wouldn't allow her to work while she lived in the house, and he put her down and seemed to enjoy and encourage the other women bullying her. If it happened, then it happened, whether or not Holly had incentive to keep it quiet or not. Her theoretically deciding that putting up with the abuse in silence was worth it because she got what she wanted doesn't erase the abuse from happening, and it doesn't preclude her from talking about it now.

I agree. If Hef said, sure, Holly, you can live here for free, but in exchange, I am going to say what you wear, how you style your hair, who you are allowed to talk to, what jobs you're allowed to take (spoiler alert: none), and in addition, you are required to perform sexually on command, take heaps of verbal abuse from the other women living here, and deal with me calling you ugly and cheap whenever the mood strikes me, and if you don't like it, there's the door...sure, people can judge Holly for not saying, fuck this, but that doesn't mean Hef isn't a jerk for wanting to put someone in this position. The fact that women are in such bad financial straits or so desperate for validation that they will put up with this doesn't mean it's totally moral on Hef's side, because, hey, they could have said no. And I doubt the terms of living in the house were expressed that explicitly anyways. And people tend to follow the sunk costs logic- Holly probably already felt that she had left her pride at the door during the first sex night, and it was a more attractive option to learn how to navigate this world rather than wind up homeless in LA with the few hundred bucks in her pocket she managed to scrape together, or return home to live with her parents, broke and demoralized.

Exactly. I am sure Holly didn't even come up with the title, and I doubt she was trying to "slip something past" the readers. However, those that have been Playmates seem to be fiercely protective of their titles, and quick to point out that those that have been Web girls, or part of the college searches, or were in group spreads are NOT playmates. I guess in the Playboy hierarchy there is a difference, but no one outside of that world is going to consider it a dis that a woman "only" achieved Web girl status and not Playmate status. Case in point, what Holly's book title is isn't that relevant to the topic but Candace still had to throw that in there. But whatever you want to hang your hat on, Candace. There seems to be a ton of verifiable evidence that Hef treated some of the women poorly. The fact that the women chose to put up with it, and maybe wouldn't have if Hef like, worked at Payless, does not make it okay.

Wow, stay classy, Candace. You know what this world needs more of? People excusing powerful men for exploiting women, and victim blamers. Unless I missed it, Holly never said she was kept captive in that mansion. I don't think she's ever tried to claim it was physically impossible for her to leave. She can still be a victim- it doesn't mean she's a helpless victim with no recourse. If Candace has nothing but affection and fond memories of Hef, she is certainly free to share her own experience, but she can keep her speculation about how other people feel about him to herself. It's people like Candace that make it so easy for men to mistreat women. Also like her "burn" about Holly not being a playmate or a bunny. As if show titles never include misnomers.

Using the word "colored" is, I mean, even for a "not well" school area pretty shocking, but I am betting Cate, Maci, and Amber have at minimum said some inadvisable things (relating specifically to race, ethnicity, or other cultures) and this ganging up on Mackenzie is much less about moral outrage and more a convenient excuse to ostracize someone.

I personally cringe when I think of things I said and did at 23. I mean, I never "dated" an 80 year perv but I did lots of things Holly would probably consider beneath her. Yeesh, am I glad I was never on TV. I don't think it has to be mutually exclusive- Hef could be a jerk with predatory tendencies, and Holly could still be an adult that makes horrible decisions at times, and has a bit of a victim complex. Reading Holly's book- she's always the injured party, and she never did anything to instigate any drama ever. I mean, come on, Holly, NO ONE is that mature. I think Holly has done very well for herself, but I think that's mainly the product of hard work and a lot of luck- I don't think this was a long con for her, but she jumped on opportunities and was able to parlay that into a long lasting 15 min of fame. I certainly give her credit for what she has accomplished and I have zero problem with her calling out someone who has exploited women and manipulated them for his own amusement. I do agree Holly always recalls things in a way that paints her in the most favorable light.

I've only read Holly's book, but the allowance she got was a "beauty" allowance of $1,000 a week and it was meant to be used for salon appts and clothes. Hef didn't demand receipts but he did ask his staff to keep an eye on what the girls were buying and if they were getting blowouts/waxed/whatever- he did not want the girls hoarding their allowance, and if he got the vibe they were, they were either cut off or asked to leave. She said she was able to save a little each week, but it really wasn't like an income where she was free to spend or save it how she liked. Hef also said she could not accept the modeling/promotional gigs she was offered while she was living in the mansion. It's true she had no bills to pay, but she also had no way to earn her own money. The girls also did not receive any money from at least the first few seasons of GND.