SparedTurkey

Not a current topic, but considering it is the anniversary of Glee's pilot episode airing or whatever, I thought I'd ask - now the dust has settled how d you think it didwhere do you think this show will end up being regarded as a depiction of LGBT themes? I mostly paid attention to Santana/Brittany and definately stopped after season 3 (with the odd exception for obvious reasons). I think they may have done an okay-ish job with Santana when all is said and done but that was definately unintention. Unlike many shows, she did end up with the girl of her dreams (lookinFaking it). I grew to dislike Kurt and the story they were telling about him - though it was much much better in the first 13 episodes. And I really didn't like that his main adversary was a closeted gay teen. I thought that was the wrong message. Thoughts?

Seriously? Yes, if you read my posts, clearly I am just like a republican who only believes in 'real' rape. Whatever that may be. Or perhaps, upon rereading the conversation and what I actually wrote, you'll see I merely declined to engage with the proposition that the 'male gaze' is 'rapey' preferring to use that word (if I have to, considering it is not a real word even though I didn't actually make it up) and all variations thereof when discussing sexual violence.

Of course any discussion of 'male gaze' is related to objectification and it should be. However the last part of that sentence is deliberately inflamatory and designed to imply men are getting the rawest deal out of it. Men have been the cause of it and have been objectifying women for ages and being called out on it now should happen. Not every instance of female nudity is the result of the male gaze - but most is. If pointing that out makes people uncomfortable - good. They may eventually realise there is a problem and it may change. Although I won't get my hopes up. I prefer to use terms like 'rapey' in discussions of actual rape so I will be leaving that alone. Perhaps it is representative of puritanical American values - you know, like the ones that inspire people to tell Kim Kardashian to put her clothes back on?

As someone else pointed out that is completely side-stepping the point. No one is arguing that all white male leads should die. The point is the female and/or POC characters are usually not as developed as the leading white male and their deaths are just used to further his story or his character. Find a show where women and POC are written well treated equally and you'll find less complaining when anyone is killed - like Spartacus. That is...completely ridiculous and deserves all the calling out it gets. It's not censorship to say you don't like something, to explain why or to encourage people to be better. Male and female naked bodies are not equal and have never been viewed as such. Pecs don't equate to boobs and won't until people stop viewing women as either a Madonna or a Whore. I don't particularly like any Kardashian but they can wear or not wear whatever they want and can take whatever pictures they want. They aren't making anyone look at it. So men are offended by the term 'male gaze' now? Good to know. I'll add it to the list of things oppressing them on a daily basis.

Rewatching the first season a few things stand out: 1) Bill was always an arrogant, chauvinistic tool from the pilot to the end. He never grew or changed. He just was the same thing from beginning to end. He didn't have any respect for any of his wives. In that respect he is as similar to any of the Compound men. Ben however, wasn't always an ass. He was just a normal teenage boy in the beginning but eventually changed to becoming just like Bill. Not a positive. 2) After watching how paranoid they were about being revealed as polygamists in the first season there is just NO way they would run for Senate. They were terrified Pam + Carl knew about them and immediately went on the offensive. And that was just when they were worried about opening a second store 3) Barb and Marjie irritated me always, but I always wanted them to run away and be free from the beginning. And to take Nicki to counselling because of course she was damaged after being Roman's daughter, JJ's ex and then sold like chattel to Bill. And for Sarah to run away to university with Heather. Heather always deserved a better Henrickson than Ben. 4) There is just NO way they would escape criminal/legal consequences after their Senate run. Nicki for sure would be investigated for her part on the Roman trial. No WAY would that be left alone. Margie's age wouldn't be able to be swept under the rug with a new ID - the media would have found that out within a week.

I wish there were people around for a rewatch. This was a very well made show for the most part. He truly is. And got worse with every passing season. I couldn't ever tell who I felt worse for out of anyone around him. Except Frank. And you could tell Ben was just going to turn into the spittig image - it would have been good to see more of Barb's reaction to that. Rhonda was hilarious...and sad. I wonder how true to life that was. I have a soft spot for Nikki...before they made her ridiculous. I do with Barb and Margene had left together - much like Sarah. There is absolutely no way Bill would have gotten through an election campaign without the polygamy leaking. No way at all.

They did Monica Reyes dirty in this episode. There is no way the character last left in 2000 would have followed CSM without nasty nasty blackmail in play. No. Way. She loved Scully way too much, delivered William among possible-nasty aliens/their followers, helped spring Mulder from prison....I can only assume she had a reason - like she knew CSM was onto Williams' whereabouts and joined him to spy/save William when needed. That's the only way I can reconcile it. That and they were banking on a season 11 because there is no way Scully would hear her confession of working for CSM and still call her a friend...let alone a trusted one. Thats my hope anyway because if not...that would be exactly the role for Marita...who was turned away because they 'didn't have a part for her'.

I think Stef has been shown to change a little, especially since the convo with Lena in the last finale. She has been more responsive to being challenged - about the mastectomy and this episode about her anger. In an earlier season she wouldn't have listened to anyone about much. I don't mind her not listening to the kids' opinions because they tend to be wrong. And even though Jesus looks 23 and is hanging out with a 30-year-old looking friend, he is still only supposed to be 15? So I'd be pissed if I was his parent coming home drunk....of course I hold an unpopular opinion of thinking the show lets Brandon get away with too much, considering the pot episode (which did Stef know about? Because if not that at least shows some continuity with Lena how being too critical). And I would be more pissed he was knowingly going back to Gabe with all those consequences at play. And really, Callie's bill support is going to blow up in her face. And they dont have enough reason for why she is throwing Rita under the bus for the lady from The Practice. Shes not more charismatic that Rita and Rita has proved her knowledge and her metal - which is why Callie I assume organised a fundraiser for her not 2 weeks ago in this timeline? I still love Mariana, dislike her taste in men. Not interested in the whole trigger thing - but to the poster above I assume this episode included a warning about suicide because it directly showed a suicide attempt and they are legally required to put out a warning about that. At least they are in Australia.

Maybe I don't know anything about having a sibling - but if one of my parents had just died (leaving aside any notion of suicide) and my sibling told me I was the reason for it...well, I would have nothing more to do with that person ever. I don't care how sad they are. That said, this is the kind of story they should have for Henry. Not a distract-Elizabeth-from-her-job. But something grounded and more relatable than being Captain Arm-Candy-Most-Feelingist-Best Spy-Ever etc. Although not loving that Henry knew about the 'Queen Elizabeth' nonsense and never said anything to anyone about it. In saying that, Stevie redeemed herself for me for not only being on Bess' side during that, but talking to her afterwards and then calling Uncle Whats-his-face? I also love Blake. And Nadine. Which can stay. The rest, if they sing, maybe.

I do appreciate that whatever ridiculous storyline happens on this show no matter how soapy or dumb...I love and really appreciate that on the show and in all media stuffs, that Sherri Saum and Teri Polo never ever give interviews or ever seem in photos for the show, and at media events - that they are ever uncomfortable with each other, need to pretend they are straight or anything dumb. After growing up during the late 80's/90's and watching every single homosexual-character playing actor ever take great pains to assure their 'fans'/'audience' know they weren't gay or at all interested at all ever....if nothing else (which it is) this show is a lot different....and worth being acknowledged. That said....More mum storylines!!!!! (sans cheating...it's just been done)

This thread may get moved but oh well - here is my two cents. Why not and why does it matter? Marraiges aren't forever. A year here or a year there. Completely doable. Look at Hollywood. Plus, if the reason for the divorces were the time constraints of both jobs then its pretty easy to imagine a few divorces. Plus wasn't Kate like mid-late 30s? I didn't see her with much cleavage unless you mean her dress for Ellie's wedding? I didn't think she was ever unprofessional. So, I don't like Will. I think it was a mismatch. Kate was much much better. I think he was - and I think Richard Schiff thought so at the time also. I vaguely remember the some agreement at TWOP being that he had done it on Jed's order. I personally wonder if the original storyline was for it to be CJ but it got changed at the last minute. And no, it definately was not Andi. If Toby didn't have clearance for the information she sure as shit didn't either. Maybe the brother's widow, but how would she have known it existed?

First - the scenario I suggested has nothing to do with with 'shaming' a woman for having an abortion - just the opposite. Regarding a happy medium, yes it is possible and largely comes down the most common refrain in this thread - variety. Sure it is dramatic to have a slow song over an actress crying, or having a dramatic discussion about her options etc. It however, is not the only experience. Why was Claire in Please Like Me written the way she was? Because Josh Thomas knew he knew nothing really about the subject and, wait for it, asked and researched. That's why it was different than most other depictions. We don't have to be satisfied with the one abortion trope getting repeated over and over just because its 'dramatic'. Put it this way - if abortion was treated in the same was as a white male on television, you can bet we would have had a number of different portrayals of the experience.

For what it is worth, Australia (and as far as I can tell, England) hasn't made abortion a political issue in the same way America has. Australia never decriminalised abortion and the last big debate I remember was in the 2000s about whether we would let people have access to RU486 (we did, eventually). But we don't have an Australian version of Roe v Wade that every political candidate has to go through. Our abortion clinics aren't blown up or shot at (though, we do also have better gun laws than America does but yeah). And there was no scandal about Please Like Me's storyline. Yes. As other people have pointed out fictional women are the creation of a writer's room (usually men) and their response to a pregnancy is to make whatever point the writer's want. And it's too much of a trope at this point for them to discuss abortion but not actually have a character go through it so as to not make the audience turn on her. Having their cake and eating it too And you know, it would be nice to see it happen to someone, as a B story, where they find out they are pregnant and just get an abortion. No hand wringing, no soul searching - because trust me. Not every woman feels regret or needs to discuss whether or not she made the biggest mistake of her life. That is a story I would like to see.

I dont really blame him for the response way back when the contracts at the time of the pilot were being signed, considering he was right at the time it was contracted - he was, technically (and however small it was) a bigger "star" than she was. It was, however, shitty for him to then follow through with all that crap about Demi Moore and whatever when she was renegotiating - especially when they were both done with the show but left her contracted through seasons 8&9 when he was free and clear. He should have taken a leaf out of the Friends booklet. That said, good on Gillian Anderson for standing up for herself now, especially that she knows what she is worth and is not afraid to say it - before signing. They both made The X Files and there is absolutely no reason why Fox or whever should have even thought one was not worth as much as the other. But more on topic - with every special, trailer or spoiler I get even more excited. I feel like this is going to be awesome.

Does anyone know if the original idea for the leak story was for it to be CJ? It seemed more than implied at the end of season 6. Or was it just to infer a CJ/Greg Brock affair? It does seem like it suddenly switched gears when Toby decided to 'get a lawyer'. Also, I love Margaret. I love that she was exactly the same assistant for CJ as she was for Leo. Her disdain when Babish ignored her directives was classic Margaret. I always wished that if I were in a position to have an assistant that it would be one like Margaret. Plus, her analysis of CJ's handwriting was hilarious and a slight callback to her assertion that she could forge both Leo's and the President's signature. I also felt like Kate could do better than Will - but I liked him much better when he was running the campaign for the dead guy than when he was in the White House. Also, if he was so smart why the hell did he hitch his wagon to Russell?

I don't like the overwhelming need to put the blame on the actress for JJ's rise to stardom and subsequent decline of the show's quality. I don't care if people don't like the character or how she has changed - I don't particularly either. But I don't think it is fair to blame the actress who has nothing to do with writing or producing the show. Would she like the changes and more screen time? I imagine absolutely -if for no other reason than it would be more protection than being summarily fired for not being young enough. But blaming her for the decline of he quality of the show - when it has been 11 years and the writers have been there for a huge number of years and don't have any original stories? Not fair. Unless AJ Cook has been secretly writing and executive-producing the show for the last 6 years - not her fault. Also there is a disproportionate level of vitriol aimed at JJ/AJ Cook that is not levelled at Morgan/Shemar (who has been doing the same thing since day 1) or Hotch/Thomas (who also directs the show on occasion) or Matthew Gubler(who has written episodes since season 5). Plus, Prentiss used to bust down doors with Morgan - not much of a difference. I'm not saying people need to love JJ. I don't like Morgan, Garcia or Gideon. I preferred JJ before season 6. But I am saying the actress does not deserve the blame for the way the show is going/how her character has been written.

I liked Prentiss/anyone. I liked her with Hotch, Reid, Rossi, Penelope, Jordan. I thought she made Morgan tolerable. Not saying I wanted her to hook up with anyone, but it was nice. A solid representation of a working female character - able to get shit done without doing something she didn't want or 'allowing' it to happen or having to be 'in love' with someone. Also one of the only team members to stand up to Gideon. For whatever reason they thought he could do no wrong and I liked that she pointed out when he missed something.

I love the Maine shirt, the jeans and an blazer. Even more I love Mulder without Scully and Scully without Mulder. Where Scully runs through all paranormal theories she can think of and Mulder asks if the doll has a string in the back. It is not the best episode at all but it is funny. And more than anything I love Stephen King's first draft, where Mulder and Scully are even more obviously having it off than anything....before 1013 got their mitts on it. I know this ep gets a bad rep in fandom, but still. I will watch it.

Well - to be fair - if he was up front about how he didn't want kids I think that makes him less of a deadbeat dad. And I don't think he would have been backwards in coming forward. Perhaps the wife should have gone and had a baby with someone that wanted to have kids. Otherwise - she knew what she was getting. I swear last year this show would have had Ivan living out his new life in the USA as a proudly gay man. I like that this time it didn't end up such a fairytale. It couldn't have. There was too many issues there. Also, I'm with those who doesn't think Elizabeth took her brother fly-fishing just to get info from her brother. I think it was a legitimate trying to repair damages thing but she couldn't let go what she learnt talking to him. Also - loved her secret service's WTF look when they put their fishing lines in the car. I'd like an episode from their point of view. I reckon they would be gold. I also liked that the ep had nothing with the two co-worker relationship crap. Made the show much much better. Also - shouldn't Ostrov be Ostrovna? Don't Russian women have a feminine ending to their last names?

I do not understand how Professor Arm Candy has a higher clearance than M-Sec. That just does not ring true at all - particularly when it involves bringing home ostracised Russian-Oliarch daughters and the potential impact that may have on current state affairs. There is no way she wouldn't be told if she asked. That said - I love that their marriage isn't suffering for it. That would be boring and something I have seen before.

....... So she's been making out with her dad for most of her life? I know this show is messy and jumps with timelines - but no. Nope. No. It's not Game of Thrones

Oh please. A baby needs one loving parent. Any more is a bonus, gender be damned. I'd rather see Finn become a parental figure - because the relationship is there and it would be funny - rather than damn another male character for 'political reasons'. Or because Rollins slept with the father. Hell. Amanda can do it alone - if Olivia can with all her baggage what stops her? Course, after this episode, Rollins should just give away any idea of getting anyone from Altanta to help her. And yeah, if Olivia and Stabler were never fired - or Amaro - there is no way she should be.

To be fair though.....who in the world would want to deal with Dawson. Ever?

Phil and Claire are one of the oldest romantic tropes in the book - someone uptight with someone messy. But Phil is too attentive, too involved with his kids and doesn't screw up on the regular to be considered as an example of a bumbling trope. Worth considering what the reaction would be if it was Claire that was the messy one. Doubt it would be as positive as the feedback Phil gets.

Oh don't get me wrong - I love that this show isn't realistic. I don't want it to be. I watch it, still watch it, will watch it. But I don't see it at all as even near to real life Secretary of State/Washington DC politics. It would be nice if it was - but I think Washington has said Veep is closer than any other show - like House of Cards and The West Wing etc. Plus, in the world being constructed here - I can accept that the Russian Black Widow has become the Russian Eva Peron. I love it even. Would Putin's wife (or mistress/girlfriend/whoever he has going on) ever become the leader after his death? No. But in this show, with their dictator - okay, I'll go with it. I agree it adressed real world politics - but in a totally fictional way not grounded in reality at all. Greek Financial Crisis - real. Elizabeth fixing it - in real life it would be in her dreams. Genocide - real. Elizabeth convincing western powers and the African Union to get involved - yeah right. This show is pretty much a liberal fantasy of how the Sec. of State should act. And I love it. But there is no way Elizabeth would ever become Mdm Sec. in real life. There is no way her staff would still have their jobs - any of them. I don't think the show has to be full-on realistic to be entertaining or great watching. But it's just not realistic and never has been and for that reason, I am not bothered by Russian Eva Peron/Black Widow and will be really happy watching Elizabeth take her down AND that wanky little Sec. Defence dude. At least with this Russian stuff - they created their own Russia to do it and had the continuity built in to do so - many shows wouldn't even bother with those details.