SparedTurkey

Ahh I was never part of the fandom at the time, so I had no idea there was a fan backlash over Buffy rejecting Spike. And while I got that I was supposed to see it as a love story come season 7, I just refuse to. Otherwise the show would be unwatchable. And I much prefer my interpretation I gotta say though, I liked Xander when he was with Giles/Willow/Dawn..basically everyone except Buffy. Well, I liked him when he was just being Buffy's friend, because when she said "no, I don't want to date you", he really has no other choice but to accept it. I really, really hated that side of him. Yes, Angel was a vampire, but does that mean that automatically Buffy should date Xander because he is better? No it doesn't. I just hate that sense of entitlement. And while Angel was a jealous prick about Xander at times, (which is another unattractive quality) I guess the only difference is Angel never harmed Xander through it or ever intended to cause him harm, whereas Xander didn't have that level of awareness(?)/Self-Control(?). Essentially, I think they both have problems though, and I was glad Buffy ended up alone at the end of the series because all he love interests sucked. (never read the comics)

*whispers* I got it hehehe Bear with me, because I haven't watched the later parts of season 6/7 in a few years. But I think assuming that Buffy was in a healthy frame of mind is really what is preventing you from 'getting' the Buffy/Spike thing. She wasn't (and I don't know she really was recovered by the end of season 7 either, for what it is worth). So even though a season 3 Buffy knew Faith needed help, I don't know that her not getting help herself means she learnt nothing from the past, just more that she wasn't mentally 'with it'. And she did have that one moment with Tara, where she knew it was bad, or was making her feel bad, but wasn't able to stop it. Which, I mean, look at alcohol/drug abuse. Sometimes there is a flicker of recognition that it is bad for you, but you can't always help. Now, I want to put a disclaimer that I am in no way a shipper of anyone on this show, am not at all advocating the Buffy/Spike thing and I agree that the season 7 'I loved him thing' was not on (or one of the writers just dancing to their own tune). I'm not saying Buffy/Spike was a great love affair or should be. I agree it was abusive and was intended to be so in season 6. I'm hopefully trying to make season 6 more....palatable(?) which is easier if you view it as a symptom of depression/mental illness rather than as an epic love story.

Heeey there CoStar. While I have no real side in this debate, but I have a thought (that obviously you will appreciate ;) hehehe) I don't get into the vampire = serial killers but I posit you this: While Buffy wasn't particularly the kind of groupie that seeks out serial killers, she was very depressed. Perhaps it was her depression that turned into self-destructive sexual behaviour. Though not every depressed person acts out in such sexually destructive ways, some do. And, the behaviour of depressed people doesn't always make sense. And while she had friends, what was she going to say to Willow/Xander/Giles/Dawn/Anya? "Thanks for bringing you back but I wish I was still dead?" Doubtful. I think that is what is meant when people talk about it as 'realistic'. So maybe if you think she is crazy, the Buffy/Spike thing makes more sense?

Glee - Mash Off (well, just after the dodgeball game anyway) because, well, a straight white male outing a latina girl will never look good or be justified (despite reactions after that episode anyway). I Kissed A Girl - The follow up episode, where said straight white dude leads a sing-a-long so that he may properly express how important it is for the gay latina girl to be out and accepting of herself because otherwise, she might just die. Blegh. Also, this episode had the honour of all the Glee girls singing 'I Kissed A Girl' by Katy bloody Perry as a lesbian anthem. Because nothing says lesbian pride like an ode to bi-curiousness (in place of a much nicer lesbian-esque song, titled 'I kissed a girl' by Jill Sobule).

I would say the show will end with Don't Stop Believing - but if it were up to me I'd have the version from the pilot playing over a montage, rather than a 60th incarnation. Slightly different topic but... I miss the way songs were arranged and changed in the earlier seasons. Songs like You Keep Me Hanging On, even 'Like A Virgin' and 'Poker Face' weren't just carbon copies of the originals.Mercy and Rehab in the pilot (or second episode) were awesome. Of course some were like the originals and that was fine, but it seemed like they put more of an effort into the earlier seasons with their songs and how they were arranged. From what little I saw of the later seasons, they really could have just played the original and filmed the cast lip-synching.

Not necessarily. Kids fall down and bruise themselves all the time. When I was young I bruised like a peach when I bumped into tables and my school never called anyone. I certainly wouldn't be jumping to the police over it. And depending on what the kid says, I probably wouldn't be calling the school. It's just a bruise after all. Obviously, if the kid started acting a bit dopey/concussion-like then yes, I'd see a doctor. Or if the kid suggested there might be something untoward happening, I'd follow that up. But as a general rule, nah. And if the kid was fine I wouldn't need a note - I'd be able to see the bruise after all!

I completely disagree. I found him arrogant, selfish and childlike. He couldn't handle it when someone deigned to disagree with what he wanted. And doing the right thing by his faith means nothing when he refuses to do the right thing by his wife/wives/children/family/Don. There is a line in a 5th season episode I just watched, when he wanted to reseal and Barb just couldn't go through with it. He said to Barb, to paraphrase, that he was sick of people ignoring what he wanted, when he always compromised for them and what they want. I don't think Bill compromised ONCE in the entire show. Everyone bowed to him, when he flitted from Home Plus, to the casino, to the Senate. When anyone disagreed, they were told to get onboard. No buts. He threw tantrum after tantrum. He felt he had to compete with Don over whose life was the hardest, after Don had almost been murdered, because it is all about him. Bill may not be as bad as Roman, or Alby or even Frank but he isn't so different in his general attitude. And my god, his hissy fit over Barb taking a spiritual journey makes me nuts. What a child. Trying to make her the bad guy? Giving ultimatums over whether or not she loves her family, just because she feels she has the priesthood. Come on. Yes Barb is a slightly fussy, messy control freak on occasion but she kowtowed to every single thing Bill wanted for their entire marriage. She even divorced him. I really wanted Barb to go live with Sarah and Teeny. Some of the things Bill said to her verges on emotional abuse in my opinion. I never fully understood if the audience were supposed to root for him. Watching the show, I also thought no. But listening to the Inside the Episodes, it seemed like they wanted people to root for him. All I was rooting for is for the wives to divorce him and run. Or just for someone to say no and not give in. Although I did appreciate from a storytelling point that Ben turned out as much of a pompous ass just like his father.

In watching Season 5, I have no idea what the showrunners were going for. They did a complete 180 on Nicki and made her so unlikeable and so unrootable. The things she said and did to Barb, particularly around the wedding were just awful. She became so self-righteous and judgemental in the worst possible ways. In the earlier seasons she was hard, cold but had moments where she was sweet. The way she treated Cara-Lynn over the Mr Ivey thing was despicable. For all her talk of safety net, support for abused compound women and acceptance of her own crappy childhood she couldn't extend her compassion to her own child. To try to throw Cara-Lynn in a boarding school followed by the horrendous midnight chat, calling her daughter a liar and a manipulator just ruined her for me. And yet just three seasons ago she was just lovely to Sarah over her miscarriage. It feels almost like the showrunners changed Nicki just for the actress to have some more meatier stuff to do (which, I mean, I love Chloe and always thought her performances were great). It seems like Nicki's character mirrored the show's decline into throwing everything at the wall.

Haha! I was asking if it was true Shemar is taking time off from CM....because I would make an effort to watch those episodes if that is the case!

Normasm - are you serious? Not a word of a lie? Not making that up? Because that, is not the worst news I've heard hehehe

I've been rewatching the series and I realised I go through different stages with the wives. For seasons 1+2 I was very much Free!Margene. Season 3 I was very much Free!Nicki! while in the 4th and 5th season I was very much Free!Barb! (Though I have to admit that I was always Free!All!Wives at all times really, but you know) However, at no stage was I ever on the Bill train. He is such an insufferable little shit. I couldn't imagine putting up with him - he is such a misogynistic child! I was always always on the Free!Don! train. He was half as arrogant, if a little dumb, and I couldn't see why he stuck with Bill for so long and continually took hits for him. I did wish that Sarah and Heather had ridden off to BYU together. That said, I liked her relationship with Scott in that it didn't resemble Bill's relationship at all and Scott actually seemed to respect her, even when she got a bit crazy over babies in season 4. I was a little concerned for Heather at the end of the series though. I hope she didn't turn into Barb 2.0. I liked the idea of season 5 but it was so poorly done. There is no way the press/citizens would not be camped out on the Henrickson property for a million years. There is also no way that no one went to their open house. I miss this show - even when it was overdramatic in seasons 4-5, the acting was good enough to make it a great show (From the wives, to Bill to all the second tier players - Adeleen, Alby, Lura, Lois etc.)

Didn't Elle hand over her gun and credentials to Hotch in her last episode? You know, the official television version of a resignation? hehehe

I'm not going to compare the two, because I do like both, but these are my reasons. I think Mariana is damaged, not as much as Callie obviously, but enough to affect her. I think her birth mother screwing with her, dangling a carrot before asking for drug money, plays into her abandonment issues. I think it was coming through with the selling of the drugs (and also comes into play in storylines in the later seasons). I think having Callie be lead by necessity makes the writers come up with new and exciting stories for her all the time, whereas because Mariana is supporting, doesn't get so much. Mariana also gets some more interesting racial stories in later seasons. (and I'm happy those storylines go to Mariana, because Jesus is not the most subtle of actors). I think Mariana can be interesting, but she is more a slow burn than Callie. I sometimes feel like they are going the Joey Potter/Mary Sue route with Callie and there is just *so* much crap being piled on at every stage and she is just so gracious about it all which isn't so much engaging (for me). That said, I like the two girls and I like that they aren't dealing with the same issues so it isn't repetitive. And, in the later seasons they do develop a really sweet sisterly relationship. Re Brandon/Callie: It is the grossest relationship on an otherwise good show. There is just no chemistry between the two actors. I don't know if it is a network-mandatated thing (because ABC Family has some weird thing about propping up gross relationships) or the show really thinks its great. But, unfortunately, I can see them drawing the relationship out for the duration of the show. All I can say, is that be ready to fast forward every now and then. (I certainly don't watch for Brandon. I watch for Stef/Lena, Judicorn, Callie and Mariana).

Very true - and I would take a shooting any time. Don't get me wrong, I think the story was well done, well acted and served the basic point of getting rid of Elle. (Although, I do think that it was a slight misfire if only because it meant Elle could never come back, and I would have liked to see Elle and Prentiss team up). And I am happy Foyet died, rather than being captured, as it spared us from numerous episodes where he escapes/taunts Hotch etc. which I could see happening conveniently around the time of sweeps and/or season premieres/endings.

I think that may be real life impacting though, rather than a personal JJ character choice. By not having any picture of Will there (not sure of the actor's name) the show wouldn't have to pay him for using it if it winds up visibly on screen, which I think is a standard contract term. Whereas with Rossi - well, it's his own family and I'm sure he is very well compensated. Similarly, as JJ's son is AJ Cook's son, no issue there. I'd imagine Hotch's desk doesn't have any Hayley pictures and neither would Reid's have pictures of Jane Lynch.

Zannej - thanks for the FBI IA/OIG explanation - I'm not from the USA, and while I know I could google, and probably should have, I feel like if the show isn't going to go into detail well....(they probably would have in an earlier season ;) ! ) Re: Hotch - I think there is a crucial difference when he killed Foyet, namely that it wasn't after the bus shooting, or after the knife attack. If it was after either of those, I would have side-eyed the show if Hotch had remained. I would have classed it as similar to Elle's shooting of the rapist (however justified, or right it may be to prevent a further killing) as being wrong and illegal. But, Hotch killed Foyet because Foyet had just killed Hayley and was lying in wait for Hotch (attacking first) and I assume was looking for Jack before Hotch arrived. I purely base my opinion of Hotch's actions on that episode. While I would have preferred Hotch beating Foyet unconsious, for no other reason than it would put him in jail for the rest of his life (which is the punishment I agree with, over the death penalty) I am okay with it because it was self-defence/protection of a third party. Although Hotch and Foyet had a history that no doubt had an impact, I think in the circumstances that impact would have been tiny. (And I agree that beating someone to death seems incredibly personal/vengeful but it was all Hotch had left) Conversely, while I agree with Cobalt Stargazer that Elle was shot because of Gideon (who never assumed responsibility) and had a severe level of PTSD, so I can understand why she shot him - particularly in light of him taunting her - but I can't accept/agree with it. There was a large degree of premeditation that shows she knew what she did was wrong but did it anyway. I get that she was abused, assaulted and nearly murdered, and didn't want anyone else to go through a similar experience, but at the end of the day, it wasn't self-defence it was murder. And that is why I am okay with Hotch killing Foyet, okay will Elle being removed from the BAU/FBI and not okay with Gideon. I just hate hate hate '25 to Life'. I feel like that was the first episode of the series that I just cannot watch. I also thought it did Morgan a huge disservice, and I don't even like him. I'm sure this will shock everyone, but Erica Messer wrote it, so maybe it was a sign of things to come (and yet EM wrote one of my favourite Alias episode ever, with Deborah J. Fisher). Come season 5 - I thought Morgan was way too arrogant, pre/during/post taking over unit chief position, and I didn't like him with anyone, except Hotch. I didn't think he worked well with anyone on the team unless he was in charge, except maybe Garcia. It seemed like he got too big for his britches.

Colbalt Stargazer: After this I should be quiet too after this ;) I know I saw it on this show, particularly with Elle, but I think that the difference was that there was some kind of punishment/investigation. While Elle's shooting was declared a 'clean shoot', I liked it in that Hotch was clearly pissed and flat out refused to let her stay in the BAU. And would have pressed for an investigation if she pushed the issue (which, in light of the previous clearing, probably would not have resulted in anything of consequence happening). Whereas, while that episode was airing, in many other procedurals their main characters were beating up perps and those shows were portraying them as heroes for it. SVU, CSI, NCIS - most main characters regularly ignore criminal laws and procedures because gosh darn it, their gut says they are right. It doesn't matter if what they do is illegal - they are the good guys! Sometimes it makes for good television, but when it is repeated so often, the main characters turn into hypocrites and I don't like rooting for them. I liked that this show (at least in the earlier seasons) was different in this respect. I don't mind anti-heros, but no procedural has set out to have one (maybe The Mentalist, but even that is iffy). Similarly, with Hotch, while he beat the life out of Foyet, that I could actually see/accept as both self-defence and the defence of Jack (I'm not saying I liked the storyline, because it was pure hollywood in having a serial killer target the FBI in such a personal manner, but that may be a separate UO). But at the same time, it was investigated by Strauss and whatever the FBI version of Internal Affairs is. Yes, cleared because he is the main lead, but at the same time he wasn't just getting patted on the back and a key to the city. I'm not saying Gideon killed Sarah Jean, but I do think his actions were legally, ethically and professionally wrong and I wish the show had not portrayed it as something honourable and that there was some kind of fallout - whether Hotch/Strauss cracked it at him or there was a reference to him meeting with the FBI IA or just some kind of blowback. Similarly, Morgan should have been fully raked over the coals for the Slow-Clap episode. Also, to show I'm not just picking on characters I don't like - Reid's Vegas case should have resulted in some kind of professional standards inquiry. Also, as much as I love Prentiss and don't mind Demonology (if for no other reason than I like watching PB act, and this was a good episode for that) she shouldn't have been near that case with a 10 foot pole (even if Rossi encouraged it).

This is true, but then again, if I wanted to watch flawed LEOs who take matters into their own hands, I'd watch Law and Order: SVU. I expect better from this show. Again true (I think Hotch spells this out to Prentiss also) but even if they didn't want to explicitly state it and deal with it, as the boss, Hotch could have/should have made Reid see a psych. It was affecting his work, it was affecting the team. It's not like they couldn't have worked around the drugs if the FBI wanted to know why - he'd just been kidnapped, so PTSD was a valid/true reason to see a shrink. Considering how guilty Hotch felt over Elle's shooting/breakdown I think it was OOC for him to ignore it. And considering how willing he was to let Elle go once she had shot someone and refusal to keep her in the BAU, I could see him taking a similar attitude with Reid.

@Zannej - I thought there was some reference to her picking up/luring the girls for her husband. And I think there was some suggestion that she knew the girls were/being killed and was more willfully blind to situation in comparison to other wives who legitimately didn't know what there husbands were up to. I understand what you are saying about Sarah Jean's thought process but at the end of the day, it's not the state's problem. And to be fair, while she would have been criticised, I don't think the boy would have suffered much. Change his name, seal records, move and he's fine. I mean, I've never heard of any of Charles Manson's kids (except the one arrested for murder, but you know, not really the same thing). You're right though, the Governor may have chosen to do nothing anyway - but at the same time, I have no sympathy for Gideon feeling guilty and/or sad because he really brought it on himself. I guess maybe he liked Sarah Jean because they were both self-made martyrs. Cobalt Stargazer: While I think that Nathan Harris would have committed the crimes he was fantasising about if unchecked, he was checked. And perhaps he wasn't a sociopath/psychopath because he knew it would be wrong and got help (and yes, Hollywood conceit, but great episode). At the end episode though, he wasn't cured and he was in for a lifetime of second-guessing and worry. And I think the difference between Nathan Harris and Sarah Jean is that, while they both wanted to die, he tried to kill himself, whereas she martyred herself for no reason and used the state to do it. Also, if an adult is acting like a child, there is something wrong there and I have much less sympathy for the adult. Yes her life may have sucked afterwards, but that is on her. It's her actions that made her life the way it was. But it isn't the state's responsibility to cater to her whims. I guess Zannej, my issue is, like you said, that Gideon chose to let her die for a crime she didn't commit. At the end of the day Gideon is a federal agent and was acting in that capacity. He wasn't her friend. He has a higher/more important duty. It's not up to him to choose whether to go along with a serial killer's wife or to follow the law. His job is to uphold the law. While I know cops/LEO's are human and make mistakes, I think Gideon really screwed the pooch here. His duty wasn't to Sarah Jean, and even if no one listened to him he had an obligation to try. If it helps, I would also have thought poorly of Reid if he had of let Nathan Harris bleed out because Nathan told him he really wanted to die. Also, I hated the Reid on drugs storyline because there is just no way Hotch would have let it go. Gideon was fairly self-absorbed and not much of a people person, so I can see it (Also why I think he was a crap mentor). When the newbie on the team is taking more of an issue with it, you know Hotch would have gotten involved. I guess it was lucky they had a case (New Orleans?) where Reid's friend was, who could dispense life-changing advice. I mean, if a defence lawyer had ever caught wind of it - there goes a dozen convictions (of course, this was back in the series when Reid was important and often help to solve a case, not just sway in the background).

A slightly different topic - I liked Dawn. I didn't like that the writers didn't always change her lines from the 8 year old they initially imagined her to be, but that isn't MT's fault. I get that it messed with canon to a degree, but ultimately, it didn't change the previous 4 seasons for me. I preferred Dawn in season 6-7 (because by that point they were writing for a teenager, not a child) because she was whiny and needy and sometimes nice and on point. I also loved her relationship with Tara.

The whole point of Morgan and Elle running around was to prove she didn't commit the crime. They found the evidence. IMO Gideon had a responsibility to at least try to get a stay of execution. No he didn't convict her or set the time and place for it. And he can't arbitrarily decide anything. But the governor of the state can. And considering there was evidence suggesting she didn't do the crime means that Gideon should have done something. He has a duty to uphold the law. Regardless of whether or not his actions succeed. If Sarah Jean wanted to die, she can go ahead. But not at the state's expense and for a crime she didn't commit. Admittedly, I'm surprised Hotch didn't try anything, but then, I guess the episode wasn't about him. Of course this is moot if she was being executed for her other actions. @ForeverAlone - you expressed my thoughts much much better than I did.

@FurryFury - did you watch the first 10 episodes of season 1? I agree with you that the show looks a bit more down to earth - I particularly like it that the characters wear the same clothes throughout the series. I like Callie also, and I feel like the actress gets better (or more confident with the American accent) in the later seasons. Admittedly, I'm watching for the parents because I love the nice, normal relationship. It reminds me of Roseanne/Dan Connor and Virginia/Burt (from Raising Hope) in that they are happy, in love and respectful (though some drama seems ridiculous at times and I guess you have to handwave it as a tv thing). I'm glad that the cheating thing has never been the story (fingers crossed it never will be). I remember being wary of this show when they advertised it initially as including the ex-husband as Stef's new partner. I thought/assumed they would go the cheating route and I have been pleasantly pleased they never did. Also, I hate the Brandon/Callie thing. So very very much. I will disagree with you in that I like Mariana. I think she has issues and at the moment the actress is doing a good job of acting like a spoilt teen but also moments that show she is nice, kind and generally hurting (more in later seasons). In a way, I think she is more realistic than Callie, who has heaps of crap piled on her, but remains the same polite, loveable Joey Potter-esque teen. I expect teens to act selfishly, be nasty sometimes and frankly, stupid (Youths!). Similarly with Jesus, he is selfish etc. Although I will admit I get bored with how he is constantly in a romantic drama (though I guess for a good looking teen, it isn't out of the realm of possibility). I would like it if there was a new storyline for him, but I guess in light of the actor's personal issues, it might not happen. The one thing I find completely ridiculous is the time period. In season 1 the show specifically states that Callie was with the Fosters for 2 months before she ran away. Now, that is unbelievable that in that small time period, Stef gets shot AND recovers from a bullet wound/major abdominal surgery (not to mention is back at work) AND they are able to plan a wedding (unless Lena had a Big Book of Wedding Planning ala Monica Geller, which, yeah, maybe) AND decide on adoption for 2 new kids they knew for 8 weeks!. Plus everything else happening in that season. By season 2, they say its been 6 months all up - which just seems too short. I guess they have to/want to keep Callie as young as possible for as long as possible, considering her foster story is the centre of it, but my god. Maybe in the Fosters, they have 72 hour days (not unlike PLL - another ABC Family show with severely bizzare timing issues).

A comedy? Awesome. Paget was hilarious in Andy Richter Controls the Universe, so I'm glad she is doing comedy again.

I don't think Nathan Harris was glorified, but the difference there is that Harris hadn't actually killed anyone. He, technically, wasn't a 'bad guy' and there may be an argument somewhere that in knowing he had to get help may ultimately prevent him from ever committing a crime. Certainly you can be sympathetic to someone who isn't a serial killer/murder/rapist and is more afraid of his own mind. The thing with Sarah Jean, and it has been awhile since I watched the episode, but was she given the death penalty just for murdering her son, or her role in her husband's activities? Because honestly, when I watched it, it was clear to me she knew what her husband was doing and should have been punished for that. I agree with normasm that she wasn't heroic, she was an enabler for a monster. And given her role in the crime, being glorified - having the lead character sympathise and cry over her - was just too much. And just because she wanted to protect her son that makes her a saint? But ultimately, given she didn't kill her son (and i am presuming here that that was her death penalty crime), I thought it was ridiculous that Gideon would let her die for it. Letting her martyr herself for no good reason is a joke. To protect her son? Please. It's not like the public would crucify the child, and if his adoptive parents were any good, the kid would have been fine. And I thought it was a really shitty thing for Gideon to let happen.

Me too! Me too! Me too! Me too! Riding the Lightning is not my favourite episodes, in fact, it would be one I disliked the most. Just seemed as though it was nothing but an opportunity for MP to overact and have some man!pain!. And I never thought Sarah Jean(?) was particularly sympathetic or worthy. At least Hotch shows some degree of sympathy/empathy for his team i.e. cleaning Elle's blood of the walls. I doubt Gideon would have even thought of it (Though I could imagine Rossi paying for someone else to clean it, hehe). But yes, Gideon's arrogance was sometimes so irritating to watch I had to fast forward. I found Rossi similarly irritating, but I didn't think JM overacted what he was given to the extent of MP. MP, who had/has the same kind of unwatchable over-acting tics in Homeland also.