S17.E25: Katie Porter, Heidi Heitkamp, Kevin Williamson, Michael Smerconish, and Eric Klinenberg

[Guest]

Airs August 23, 2019

Quote

Katie Porter, Heidi Heitkamp, Kevin Williamson, Michael Smerconish, and Eric Klinenberg

[Caseysgirl]

Katie Porter - my hero!

[Milburn Stone]

I appreciated the logic of Williamson's positions. If behavior is bad enough to be a crime or the subject of a lawsuit, prosecute it as a crime or litigate it as a lawsuit. This banishing-for-life-without-due-process business makes no sense. If as a society we decide that abortion is murder, treat it as murder. If as a society we decide that abortion is birth control, leave it alone. It seems he happens to believe that abortion is murder, a position with which I 100% disagree, but he's not saying his position is "right," just that it happens to be his position. The logic itself is unassailable.

[UYI]

Katie Porter is ❤️ .

And there was definite Meghan McCain shade going on during her interview, on both her AND Bill's parts. 😄 

(For those who don't know or remember, look up Meghan MCCain's appearance on this show in 2009. You'll understand afterwards.) 

Edited August 24, 2019 by UYI

[DoctorAtomic]

4 hours ago, UYI said:

Katie Porter is ❤️ .

Good for Bill for having her back on. 

So this week Bill says shaming works, but last week was complaining about people shaming on the internet. So which is it? 

[wknt3]

Another hit and miss week. Loved Katie Porter and it proves that Bill's ego isn't too fragile to bring back a guest that gets the better of him if they're funny enough and generate enough buzz/internet traffic for the show. And we actually got 2 women this week! Thought the panel was strong although the conversation was more interesting on Overtime when the audience rather than Bill was suggesting the topics. And New Rules was great - lots of cheap laughs, but still funny in the service a serious point and delivery that reminds you how good a comedian Bill can be and how he got here in the first place. OTOH you had all the usual tics that make it so hard to fully enjoy the show - the complete lack of preparation and being ready with a followup question, the stupidity like rooting for a recession, the lack of any sort of intellectual consistency and the idea that he truly understands America because he does shows in red states. It's so frustrating - I wish he'd either completely suck so I could just skip the show entirely until HBO decides to replace him or get his head out of his ass and do a little bit of work to do the consistently great show he's capable of doing!

[DoctorAtomic]

Was the interview in a different position on the stage? 

[deirdra]

This time Bill had Katie on in a separate interview (front part of the stage, where he starts every interview after the monolog, before the panel) so that she could not continuously out-wit him and test his skin-thickness like she did when she was a panel member.  She's a great guest as an interviewee, panel member and on Overtime and teases Bill rather than sucking up to him.

I'm not sure that Williamson 100% thinks that abortion is murder, though that is what Republican Catholics are expected to say.  He seemed to be trying to make the point that even most pro-choice people believe abortion at X days is fine but at X+1 days is murder and cannot be allowed, asking - so is it or is it not murder?  Mr. Free Speech (Bill) kept stopping Williamson from completing several lines of reasoning and only wanted to let him talk about the things Bill agrees with, which is what Bill routinely accuses others of doing.

Edited August 24, 2019 by deirdra

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, deirdra said:

I'm not sure that Williamson 100% thinks that abortion is murder, though that is what Republican Catholics are expected to say.  He seemed to be trying to make the point that even most pro-choice people believe abortion at X days is fine but at X+1 days is murder and cannot be allowed, asking - so is it or is it not murder?  

6 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

 If as a society we decide that abortion is birth control, leave it alone. It seems he happens to believe that abortion is murder, a position with which I 100% disagree, but he's not saying his position is "right," just that it happens to be his position. The logic itself is unassailable.

That's a pretty specious argument. We're talking about something in the process of coming into existance. Perfectly logical to base an opinion or law on the stage of development it's at. It's not logical, it's dishonest and another attempt to turn a zygote into a person, whuch is already the anti abortion positiin.

[DoctorAtomic]

You can have a medical standard for abortion that is science based, so I don't think his argument was much of anything. 

I also thought his  reason for the electoral college was wrong. 

I'm still not clear on why boycotting is wrong? 

Edited August 24, 2019 by DoctorAtomic

[Jadzia]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm still not clear on why boycotting is wrong? 

I was rolling my eyes at the panelist who seemed to agree with Bill that boycotts are wrong but then said “we need to let the free market decide.”  Umm, isn’t that the point of a boycott, to not spend your money with a company you disagree with? That is absolutely how the free market works. 

[sugarbaker design]

12 minutes ago, Jadzia said:

I was rolling my eyes at the panelist who seemed to agree with Bill that boycotts are wrong but then said “we need to let the free market decide.”  Umm, isn’t that the point of a boycott, to not spend your money with a company you disagree with? That is absolutely how the free market works. 

You and me both, Smerconish was nodding his head during Bill's tirade, then said 'Change the channel'.  That's boycotting dude.

[DoctorAtomic]

Which is basically what Killer Mike said last week. I mean, isn't it the essential definition of free speech? 

I take Bill's point that Twitter doesn't really have the pulse of the public at large - because most people are busy working. 

At the same time though if someone is calling for a boycott of whatever, you can also say, go ahead, grow and grow the fuck up while you're at it. 

I think Bill's point is that Twitter doesn't really lend to an actual argument. I rip my own colleagues - that I actually like - a new asshole on the regs. But that's to their face, and they've told me to fuck off on occasion. 

So I guess just saying something and walking away can be annoying. It's a nuanced issue and Bill just doesn't do well with that. 

[link417]

I agree with all the posters who have said that boycotting IS the free market deciding — how many calls for boycotting have we seen that did not amount to anything because not enough people wanted to join in? There ya go, free market. IMO, Bill & Smerconish are against any boycotting, period, lest they wind up on the business end of one.

The only legitimate point in the boycott issue, that was only briefly brought up at the end of the boycott discussion, was the problem of astroturfing, where the public is manipulated into thinking there is an actual grassroots movement when really it’s one person or one organization deliberately trying to create that illusion. Bill brought up the fact that not only can other members of the public be fooled, but advertisers can be fooled, too, and can pull their ad buys as a result of the fake movement.

I don’t feel like not boycotting is the answer to astroturfing; it feels a bit like (though not 100% analogous, I know) saying that not voting is the answer to foreign interference in elections. And I feel like if a person or organization is the target of astroturfing, the person’s/organization’s fans would mount a counter protest. I just can’t believe that an astroturf campaign can hold up against actual, impassioned fans. Again:  free market.

Edited August 25, 2019 by link417
Duplicated words

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't get why Bill is so concerned anyway. Despite the legitimate criticisms of Bill's pov, the guy works. He's a showbiz lifer. If the show ended right now, Bill is still going to have a career for as long as he wants. 

You'd think Mr Politically Incorrect would be in favor of this. 

[deirdra]

Bill should embrace individuals who boycott things based on their own experience or research. That is what free marketers and libertarians like me do.  I also understand the problem of people deciding to boycott things based on fakenews social media hysteria (not me).

[Tachi Rocinante]

I took his point to mean that boycotting has become a bullshit knee-jerk reaction and has replaced intelligent civil discourse.

[smores]

On 8/24/2019 at 7:18 PM, Jadzia said:

I was rolling my eyes at the panelist who seemed to agree with Bill that boycotts are wrong but then said “we need to let the free market decide.”  Umm, isn’t that the point of a boycott, to not spend your money with a company you disagree with? That is absolutely how the free market works. 

Bill doesn't like boycotts because they are essentially what led to him being booted from ABC and also what wounded his special little snowflake soul when he was dis invited from speaking at Berkeley.  So since it affected HIM, boycotts are BAD.  

But, it is the free market deciding what stays and what goes.  It is also people just turning the channel if they don't like something.  It is also a form of protest, which a fundamentally American principle, one that you would think Bill would be behind.  

[b2H]

Watched the rewind of the show on Saturday.  Happy to see Katie back on.  She recognizes what a slog it is to campaign and win an election in a district that wasn't even heavily in her favor.  She's making her chops with the recognition of her committee work, especially on Jamie Dimon - if she can convert him to a different way of thinking, what else could she be capable of?  Would that more of our Congresscritters were so driven?  Just ask the question, already.

Williamson - if that's the last I see of him, it'll be too soon.  He was a lunatic, in my mind.  I listened to him for the duration and that's 15 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

The panel was great.  Not too much shouting over each other.

I thought the New Rules idea was great, but was over-thought.  I got to the point where I couldn't remember exactly why Bill was trying to kiss up to Trump.  Overdone - stick a fork in it.  Half of it would have been enough to make his point.

[scrb]

Did they talk about Mark Halperin in the context of a boycott?

Because if they did, they shouldn't have.  I think the companies which had contracts with Halperin for book and TV deals cut him off when the revelations came out.

I don't think there had to be some number of people threatening to boycott those companies which employed Halperin.

Yeah if the worst thing he did was to  try to force women to go out with him, he shouldn't have his career ended.  But there's no way to determine how far and bad he took things, unless someone files a civil suit at least and facts come out or at least people testify under oath.

[UnknownK]

On 8/24/2019 at 8:35 PM, sugarbaker design said:

You and me both, Smerconish was nodding his head during Bill's tirade, then said 'Change the channel'.  That's boycotting dude.

No its not. If I don't like a show or the people on it and change the channel that is not the same thing as making a public plea that other people change their channel in support of my ideas against specific shows and people.

The issue is people get offended by the littlest things these days (and if what Bill says about college students being the worst offenders of this it will only get worse in the future). The twitter universe is just for people waiting for a comment they don't like to publicly pounce on a person and try to destroy them. 

Bill lost his original show (one that I used to watch btw) for making one comment some people didn't like even if it was true.  Nobody made a big deal out of his comment until days later when some of the right wing media picked it up to make made a big deal out of it. The show got canceled by people who didn't even watch the show but who made advertisers boycott the show so it would eventually get canceled.

[UnknownK]

54 minutes ago, scrb said:

Yeah if the worst thing he did was to  try to force women to go out with him, he shouldn't have his career ended.  But there's no way to determine how far and bad he took things, unless someone files a civil suit at least and facts come out or at least people testify under oath.

There is no fact finding or degrees of badness in the #metoo movement so even doing something not illegal will get you tarred and feathered in the media and out of a career. I don't see why anybody would admit to doing anything wrong in this climate no matter how small.

[Guest]

Back to discussing the show, please.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I finally got around to watching this last night and as to Williamson, he just came off as a smug, condescending asshole.