S02.E08: Episode 8

[Bort]

Quote

Red tape hinders Holden's plan to narrow his suspect pool. A weary and heartsick Bill tries to connect with his son. Wendy rethinks her relationship.

Airdate: August 16, 2019

[AmandaPanda]

Way to go Bill on talking about fishing and holding the flopping fish in your hands. Totally the thing to say to your child who just was involved in a murder. 

[Irlandesa]

One choice I found interesting about this episode is that Sammy Davis Junior and Frank Sinatra were singing Candyman and The Houston serial killer they interviewed earlier in the season went by the nickname The Candyman.

[Portia]

Ooh, I'd forgotten what Wayne Williams said when asked if he knew why he was being stopped. Chilling. Hey, did anyone besides me spot the Williams Easter Egg a couple of episodes back? The agents and cops were suddenly beset by a mob of reporters. One man with a camera around his neck briefly turned so his face was clearly visible, and I paused the show and yelled, "That's him! That's Wayne Williams!" Once again the show creators have taken great pains to find an actor who resembles the real criminal to an eerie degree.

[swanpride]

Honestly, along with the sorry excuse why he was on the bridge in the middle of the night, the fact that he didn't have an alibi for ANY of the killings (not even for those he most likely didn't commit...I suspect the two girls were killed by someone else) makes him even more suspect. Sure, one might not necessarily know what one did a year or two ago, but people have family events, they have important meetings, it is pretty unlikely that with so many dates there wasn't a single one on which he was busy elsewhere.

Btw, I found it somehow odd that the show cast doubt on the assertion that the killer must be a black man, because that is the one thing which is pretty obvious. In the beginning a white man who is known in the community might have managed to slip by unnoticed, but once the bodies piled up, there is no way that the alerted adults, many of whom thought that the Klan was responsible, wouldn't have paid close attention to any white man they saw in their neighbourhood.

[Cheezwiz]

Holden is such a dolt sometimes. I'm glad Tench told him off.

Really wishing they had brought Jim Barney permanently onto their team instead of Gregg. He's really been using his brainpower, and is also talented at interviewing.

Well, Dr. Wendy's romance sure fizzled quickly. They are both compartmentalizing parts of their lives and neither will admit it.

L'il Tench Jr. continues to be creepy as all get out, and Mom seems to be going off the deep end with him. A shame, because if not for their little Damien in training, the Tenches seemed to have a solid relationship.

[swanpride]

I thought the reasoning why they didn't want Jim Barney in the team in the first season was fairly idiotic. Having a more diverse team is actually a good way to trigger certain reactions from the interview partners.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, swanpride said:

I thought the reasoning why they didn't want Jim Barney in the team in the first season was fairly idiotic. Having a more diverse team is actually a good way to trigger certain reactions from the interview partners.

I think it's now acknowledged that it's good to have women (like Wendy) in interviews because killers often react to them in a helpful way. But never underestimate how logical white guys think it is to stick with other white guys as default. 

[swanpride]

Not really considering that there is now an effort to side-line Wendy from the interviews, too. But yeah, I guess it was a pretty realistic portrayal of internalized racism. Holden is most likely not even aware of it.

[tennisgurl]

I totally get why people are so convinced that its the Klan killing the kids, but its still frustrating to see so many people so hung up on it being one kind of person when we know thats not really what was probably happening. Yeah Wayne Williams was never officially charged with the child killings, and its possible he didn't do all of them, but I think its pretty likely that he committed most of the murders. 

In a way, its kind of like the case last season in the small town with the woman being killed. Local law enforcement was just convinced that it had to be some kind of drifter who committed the crime and not someone from their town. Even though the black community in Atlanta has much better reasons to suspect the Klan for the killings, because the Klan is full of evil garbage people who really do hurt innocent people, its still the idea that nobody likes the idea that someone in their own community could be capable of something so horrible, and kind of just refuse to even consider it.

Well that relationship sure fizzled out, huh Wendy? They were so different and lived such different kind of lives, it was probably inevitable, even if really I am pretty sure Wendy probably realized it was over the second the magazine quizzes were brought out 😉 

Bill taking Brian out to hang out was a good idea, but it probably wasn't a great idea to tell him about dying animals, which is of course the only thing that gets Rosemary's baby's attention. 

[Atlanta]

9 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

Really wishing they had brought Jim Barney permanently onto their team instead of Gregg. He's really been using his brainpower, and is also talented at interviewing.

The agent he's based on (Judson Ray) does become a profiler so maybe he'll be an official part of the team next season.

[swanpride]

Btw, the case with the "drifter" and the mother and the child...is that a real case? One which was solved? Or never solved?

[Clanstarling]

On 8/20/2019 at 1:40 PM, Irlandesa said:

One choice I found interesting about this episode is that Sammy Davis Junior and Frank Sinatra were singing Candyman and The Houston serial killer they interviewed earlier in the season went by the nickname The Candyman.

Yeah, that kind of threw me. Any song but Candyman. But response was for a different reason - I couldn't stop thinking of the "don't take candy from a stranger" saying about avoiding kidnappers. Seemed a tad inappropriate under the circumstances.

On 8/22/2019 at 6:30 PM, Portia said:

Ooh, I'd forgotten what Wayne Williams said when asked if he knew why he was being stopped. Chilling. Hey, did anyone besides me spot the Williams Easter Egg a couple of episodes back? The agents and cops were suddenly beset by a mob of reporters. One man with a camera around his neck briefly turned so his face was clearly visible, and I paused the show and yelled, "That's him! That's Wayne Williams!" Once again the show creators have taken great pains to find an actor who resembles the real criminal to an eerie degree.

Yes, I noticed it too. Then I decided maybe I was making too much out of it.

[mledawn]

Loved Bill giving a bit of a smack down to Holden about why he's going back and forth so much AND how he's on Holden Duty. Man, Holden is just soooooooo self centred.

Bill, has spent all that time in hotels and never figured out to use the clips on the pant hangers in the closet to hold the curtains closed!? I travelled a lot for work and used to pack four or five binder clips for that purpose, but if I forgot, I used the pants hanger. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk!

I actually watched the scenes with Wendy and her gf, and good for Wendy!

[Roseanna]

On 8/23/2019 at 9:17 AM, Cheezwiz said:

Well, Dr. Wendy's romance sure fizzled quickly. They are both compartmentalizing parts of their lives and neither will admit it.

Wendy had done the compartmentalizing consciously and she admitted it her lover. No doubt she had no choice to succeed profssionally, but compartmentalizing also helped her to research sociopaths as she could mentally take a distance from them.

Her lover criticized Wendy for lack of honesty but her own doing the same was revealed when she talked to her ex-husband. Plus, whereas she told Wendy that she had chosen her own lifestyle to be free of conventions, the convesation revealed that she had made her ex to believe that working as a bartender and living in a shabby apartment was only temporary. 

Again, it was quite natural that she couldn't tell her husband about her sexuality for then she probably couldn't meet her son. But she had also criticized Wendy putting her career before "living honestly" whereas she had lied about her vision in life either to her ex or Wendy - and that lie wasn't at all "necessary" and so could Wendy trust her at all?

In the conversation with her ex, she also said that she wanted present to her son a person who "was not important". That no doubt hurt Wendy who (as she knew) listened to the conversation. Yet, Wendy probably would have understood that this lie was necessary if there had been others thing.

In any case, Wendy had been honest both in the relationship and what she told about herself to her lover. She had made some clumsy mistakes like asking her lover to move to her spare room (although her supposition that she then would have her own space told much about herself) instead of asking her to live with her but she apologized and tried to learn to be open. 

Although Wendy did wrong to leave her lover without a word, her reaction was understandable. 

[swanpride]

What I disliked about her lover above all was how controlling she was from the get go and how she constantly put Wendy in awkward situations. Starting with the first date. On the surface acting as if Wendy wasn't overdressed seems like a nice gesture, but in reality it is really rude to agree to a date and not bothering to tell your date "wear something easy to move in" at least. Wendy obviously disliked Bowling, but she was ready to adapt to her date and make the best out of it, even though doing that in an evening dress is really awkward. Then the whole "let's do the quiz, never mind that you are busy working" which really reminded me of Holden barging in on his girlfriend and demanding her attention, no matter that she had to learn. And then there was the thing with the cinema. On the surface, Wendy constantly bitching about being there on time and this not ending in a big row can be credited to her girlfriend deescalating the situation, but again, if you look deeper, the film was apparently something Wendy wanted to see, and yet never did, because her girlfriend first ensured that they were late, then took extra-long for parking and then distracted her into doing something else.

Not that Wendy was totally without fault, she was so lonely I think she would have tried to make ANY relationship work, no matter how bad of a fit the other person is. But a relationship is also a two way street and while Wendy was honestly trying to make it work, her girlfriend was not.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, swanpride said:

What I disliked about her lover above all was how controlling she was from the get go and how she constantly put Wendy in awkward situations. Starting with the first date. On the surface acting as if Wendy wasn't overdressed seems like a nice gesture, but in reality it is really rude to agree to a date and not bothering to tell your date "wear something easy to move in" at least. Wendy obviously disliked Bowling, but she was ready to adapt to her date and make the best out of it, even though doing that in an evening dress is really awkward. Then the whole "let's do the quiz, never mind that you are busy working" which really reminded me of Holden barging in on his girlfriend and demanding her attention, no matter that she had to learn. And then there was the thing with the cinema. On the surface, Wendy constantly bitching about being there on time and this not ending in a big row can be credited to her girlfriend deescalating the situation, but again, if you look deeper, the film was apparently something Wendy wanted to see, and yet never did, because her girlfriend first ensured that they were late, then took extra-long for parking and then distracted her into doing something else.

Not that Wendy was totally without fault, she was so lonely I think she would have tried to make ANY relationship work, no matter how bad of a fit the other person is. But a relationship is also a two way street and while Wendy was honestly trying to make it work, her girlfriend was not.

This encapsulates my problem with Wendy's lover. She was always testing Wendy, and judging her as inadequate. She also was a huge asshole by deliberately making them late for the movie, when Wendy clearly stated what she liked about going to the movies.  I may have over related to that one, as I've been in Wendy's position (regarding be on time) more than once - but at least the people I was with weren't deliberately making us late and then pretending it was some kind of an object lesson in flexibility.

I have no problem with Wendy leaving without saying a word. I fully support any woman (or man) for getting the hell away when they are in emotional turmoil. She may have been subdued as always, but I think she was deeply hurt by her lover's dismissal of their relationship. It may have been a valid tactic, but recognizing that comes with a little time and perspective - and perspective then includes the lover's dismissal of Wendy's needs and her hypocrisy. 

[MaggieG]

I enjoyed the montage of them sleeping/on the stake out. I especially liked them slapping away the bugs and then having the bugs in the car. Also Tench waking up Holden with the loud radio.

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, swanpride said:

Not that Wendy was totally without fault, she was so lonely I think she would have tried to make ANY relationship work, no matter how bad of a fit the other person is. 

Wendy had had only one long relationship, with her professor who had an upper hand because of profession and age and, as we saw in S1, was a good manipulator and a snob, valuening only the academia and knowing better than Wendy what was best for her.

Wendy had no time to visit gay clubs, so she was overjoyed to find a new lover. Her hobbies, habits and surroundings were unfamiliar to Wendy, but she tried her best, only making a slip once by talking about mothers whose children have problems (I don't remember the term she used), but apologizing at once she realized that her lover could believe it was meant to criticize her leaving her child.

The second time was in the farewell scene when Wendy called her lover a bartender who takes relationship advice from magazines. That was snobistic and deliberately crude.

Yet, it's not people who have good education and profession who can put down at those less fortunate, it can also happen the other way round. Wendy's lover did just that many times, f.ex. she said after Wendy had failed in her second interview that she had studied sociopaths "from books".

To her, Wendy's professional success was "nothing" because she didn't "live honestly" like she did - which was shown to be a sham in the discussion with her ex: perhaps she was simply too lazy to look for a better job and apartment? Of course it may be that she was really pleased with her life but couldn't say it to him - then fine, it was her own business. But why did she then criticize Wendy's way of life? Why couldn't she be value Wendy's success and support her when she had adversities?

[cpcathy]

1 hour ago, MaggieG said:

I enjoyed the montage of them sleeping/on the stake out. I especially liked them slapping away the bugs and then having the bugs in the car. Also Tench waking up Holden with the loud radio.

I laughed all the way through that montage, but, what did Holden drop outside the car window? Forms?

[bosawks]

I never really liked the Bill/Nancy/Brian storyline but that sink full of dirty dishes made me sad.

[shrewd.buddha]

On 8/27/2019 at 12:53 PM, Roseanna said:

the farewell scene when Wendy called her lover a bartender who takes relationship advice from magazines.

Wendy came off pretty harsh. Where is the evidence of Dr. Carr's extensive education in psychology? I understood that Wendy was very lonely - the phantom laundry room cat - but it seemed as if she jumped at the first lesbian she came across in VA. Dating a bartender never seemed like a realistic fit, just considering the hours, lifestyle, etc. 

On 8/23/2019 at 2:17 AM, Cheezwiz said:

Holden is such a dolt sometimes. I'm glad Tench told him off.

Holden is oblivious to many things but he was correct about Bill not being of much help in Atlanta. Bill has a difficult situation but his part time appearances are not helping his wife or the FBI. 
Bill's blowup at Holden could have been avoided if Bill had given him the same trust he gave Wendy Carr. It was basically a jerk move to unload on Holden in an outburst. Holden shouldn't be expected to be a mind reader. 

The bureaucracy, politics and personal agendas in Atlanta are frustrating but interesting to watch. I would prefer the show lean more into those type of things instead of Bill and Wendy's manufactured personal dramas. 
I can understand that the showrunners want to give their main characters dramatic scenes but some of it feels forced. 

[Claude]

On 8/20/2019 at 1:40 PM, Irlandesa said:

One choice I found interesting about this episode is that Sammy Davis Junior and Frank Sinatra were singing Candyman and The Houston serial killer they interviewed earlier in the season went by the nickname The Candyman.

Even more than that was the irony of singing a song about a "Candyman" at a benefit for children being abducted and murdered by a possible pedophile. The song title already had (unintended) drug overtones - a euphemistic term for a drug dealer, which added another layer of irony as some of the boys may have been lured in by the promise of drugs. I'm wondering if Sammy Davis Jr. actually sang that song at that benefit. Yes, it was one of his biggest hits but you would think someone might have thought it was inappropriate in that context. True or not, it was great touch by the writers.

[jeansheridan]

On 9/2/2019 at 1:07 PM, bosawks said:

never really liked the Bill/Nancy/Brian storyline but that sink full of dirty dishes made me sad.

On another show that would be such a cliche but it worked here. Nancy was so careful to keep a perfect house in case the social worker came. Her fatigue, his fatigue...You feel it with almost no screentime. 

Also you can see how conditions are being created to being out the worst in Brian. Now he has an absentee father, a clingy mother who is secretly relieved he isn't related to her, rejection from community...Brian may be doomed. 

This was Holden's most human episode. The stakeout brought out the best in him. All that bonding!