S09.E11: Secrets of the Past

[Crazy Bird Lady]

23 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

I agree he [Jamie/ Sneery] is awful, but this seems like a massive reach. How exactly can he keep her from her family when she works for her father??? I don't think he's a mustache twirling (if he had any hair) villain so much as a petulant passive aggressive asshat. 

You might be surprised at how effective manipulative abusers can be at isolating their partners from family and friends. I've seen it happen.

https://www.webmd.com/women/features/domestic-abuse-recognizing-potential-abuser-feature#1

"Abusers try to isolate you: Abusers want to wear away at your support network. To do this, they may discourage you from being with family and friends or may even initiate conflict with them, causing them to avoid both of you." 

Yes, Farley, Elizabeth is extremely insecure. Sneery knows how sensitive and defensive she is about "nepotism" and about the stigma of "being lazy" or "being a failure" and ending up 'working' for her (strangely over-protective) father. 

But ILOVEPIE, you responded to my comment quoted below: 

23 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

On 8/27/2019 at 10:32 AM, Crazy Bird Lady said:

Like most spousal abusers, the first horrible thing Sneery did was decide to keep Beth away from her father (his 'rival') as much as possible.  He ridiculed her for working for her father, making Elizabeth too embarrassed to contact her family. 

Any real "couples counselor" (or psychologist) could tell you that -in abuse situations-

Your partner cuts you off from family and friends:

     Keeps close tabs on where you go and whom you go with

     Makes you ask for an OK to see friends and family

     Embarrasses you in front of others, and it makes you want to avoid people.

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/mental-domestic-abuse-signs#1-2

Edited August 28, 2019 by Crazy Bird Lady

[LuvMyShows]

1 hour ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

But ILOVEPIE, you responded to my comment quoted below:

Any real "couples counselor" (or psychologist) could tell you that -in abuse situations-

Your partner cuts you off from family and friends:

     Keeps close tabs on where you go and whom you go with

     Makes you ask for an OK to see friends and family

     Embarrasses you in front of others, and it makes you want to avoid people.

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/mental-domestic-abuse-signs#1-2

I don't get the sense that anyone is doubting that this is true phenomenon, just doubting that Beth would fall prey to it.  Just because it can happen to people, doesn't mean it will happen to every person that it is tried on.

[gonecrackers]

I don't think Jamie is there, yet. If they stay together, though, I do think he has that kind of potential. Granted she's obnoxious, but he already seems to just be breaking her down.

Edited August 28, 2019 by gonecrackers

[Crazy Bird Lady]

2 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Any real "couples counselor" (or psychologist) could tell you that -in abuse situations-

Your partner cuts you off from family and friends:

     Keeps close tabs on where you go and whom you go with

     Makes you ask for an OK to see friends and family

     Embarrasses you in front of others, and it makes you want to avoid people.

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/mental-domestic-abuse-signs#1-2

You quoted me in that one, actually. Then, you commented:

2 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

I don't get the sense that anyone is doubting that this is true phenomenon, just doubting that Beth would fall prey to it.  Just because it can happen to people, doesn't mean it will happen to every person that it is tried on.

I agree that it won't happen to every person it's tried on. Abuse requires the abuser to find something in his/her target that they are already extremely insecure and (usually) very embarrassed about --then exploit the hell out of it, wearing their "loved one" down until they're afraid not to follow the abuser's 'rules'. 

I did acknowledge, up-thread, that although we never see Elizabeth talk to her father or her family on TV, it could be because of MAFS 'production' editing for maximum drama.

But I do think it's a big red flag that we never see Elizabeth on the phone with her father that she's supposedly super-close to --especially since he's also supposed to be her boss! (And I remember one of those times when Jamie kept chasing Beth from room to room, angry and belittling her, he said something like, "Oh, you want to be alone so you can call your Daddy?")

Edited August 28, 2019 by Crazy Bird Lady

[Ilovepie]

4 hours ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

But ILOVEPIE, you responded to my comment quoted below:

12 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

14 hours ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

Like most spousal abusers, the first horrible thing Sneery did was decide to keep Beth away from her father (his 'rival') as much as possible.  He ridiculed her for working for her father, making Elizabeth too embarrassed to contact her family. 

 Any real "couples counselor" (or psychologist) could tell you that -in abuse situations-

Your partner cuts you off from family and friends:

     Keeps close tabs on where you go and whom you go with

     Makes you ask for an OK to see friends and family

     Embarrasses you in front of others, and it makes you want to avoid people.

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/mental-domestic-abuse-signs#1-2

Edited 4 hours ago by Crazy Bird Lady

I agree this can happen, but I don’t believe it’s happening here. How exactly has Jamie cut Elizabeth off from her family? I don’t see how that’s possible when she works for her dad. Yes, he derided her for it, but that’s not cutting her off. Nor have we seen him attempting to limit her interaction with them either. I guess I just don’t know how this scenario you are describing applies to these two. 

As far as mental abuse, I think it goes both ways here. They have both said demeaning and damaging things to each other. I think he’s worse because while she says things she may or may not mean in the heat of the moment, he deliberately says hurtful things as a means of revenge.

The bottom line is they are a terrible match.

[Crazy Bird Lady]

6 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

I agree this can happen, but I don’t believe it’s happening here. How exactly has Jamie cut Elizabeth off from her family? I don’t see how that’s possible when she works for her dad. Yes, he derided her for it, but that’s not cutting her off. Nor have we seen him attempting to limit her interaction with them either. I guess I just don’t know how this scenario you are describing applies to these two. 

As far as mental abuse, I think it goes both ways here. They have both said demeaning and damaging things to each other. I think he’s worse because while she says things she may or may not mean in the heat of the moment, he deliberately says hurtful things as a means of revenge.

The bottom line is they are a terrible match.

We definitely agree that they're a terrible match!  The MAFS "experts" should be fired for putting together "Mr. Picky" and "The Free Spirit"! 

As for the rest, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I'm still quite open to the possibility that 'production's' editing is responsible for why we never see "Big Red" contacting any of her family, even Daddy Dearest --ever.  But IF Big Red really has cut off contact with her family, I'm sticking to my guns that it's got to be because of Sneery's (very) deliberate ridicule, shaming, and interference... which is definitely a sign of (at least) verbal abuse.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

But I do think it's a big red flag that we never see Elizabeth on the phone with her father that she's supposedly super-close to --especially since he's also supposed to be her boss! (And I remember one of those times when Jamie kept chasing Beth from room to room, angry and belittling her, he said something like, "Oh, you want to be alone so you can call your Daddy?")

There are a million things we never see. Jamie and Elizabeth are one fourth of a show that focuses on their interactions with each other. They are at their most volatile when they are alone together, closely followed by situations in which they interact with the other couples. We really don't see anyone else at work so I'm surprised we don't see Elizabeth at work with her daddy either.

Sure, it's possible that Jamie is isolating Elizabeth from her family as part of a pattern of abuse. But it's equally possible that he isn't and Elizabeth being coddled by her daddy is just not as interesting as other footage the editors have available to them. I don't see a red flag at all on this one.

I agree - they are a terrible match. But I also don't like either one of them and struggle to envision the person who would be a good match for either Jamie or Elizabeth.

[Retired at last]

We see very little of their regular days - just when the cameras are on them. We don't see anyone at work, thank goodness, so we have no idea how Elizabeth and her father are handling this (also very happy NOT to see). Since I think that Matt is the only one without a real job, we don't see him all day, either, so no one knows what/who he does. From the limited amount of couple interaction we see, I think we all see that Jamie and Big Red are not good together. Period. We don't even know if they spend any time with their "spouses" when the cameras aren't on, as we suspect that Matt and Amber spend very little time together off camera. I am just glad we don't have too many more episodes to watch, and although I said it last season, I think I am done. The more production and bad edits for drama, the less interesting this is to me.

[Ilovepie]

6 hours ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

As for the rest, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I'm still quite open to the possibility that 'production's' editing is responsible for why we never see "Big Red" contacting any of her family, even Daddy Dearest --ever.  But IF Big Red really has cut off contact with her family, I'm sticking to my guns that it's got to be because of Sneery's (very) deliberate ridicule, shaming, and interference... which is definitely a sign of (at least) verbal abuse.

I think my sticking point was the wording - "The FIRST horrible thing Sneery did was decide to keep Beth away from her father." This implies it has already happened, when in fact it is pure conjecture. Is it possible? Sure, but there is absolutely no proof that this has happened, and in fact, we know she works for her father, which makes it even more impractical.

I do agree he is verbally abusive, but again, she is not much better......

[gonecrackers]

Jamie was nasty toward Liz with regard to her working for daddy. It's one thing to question or take interest, but he was, again, mean in his way about him. That nasty, mean way about him follows through in other arguments - calling her a c**t isn't acceptable in any circumstances, but he barely knew her at that point. It does make me wonder what he'll be saying (or doing) if they stay married 10-20yrs (no, no, noooooooo!!!).  The 'experts' have no business trying to help these two do anything anymore but pack & file for divorce.

[Crazy Bird Lady]

2 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

I think my sticking point was the wording - "The FIRST horrible thing Sneery did was decide to keep Beth away from her father." This implies it has already happened, when in fact it is pure conjecture. Is it possible? Sure, but there is absolutely no proof that this has happened, and in fact, we know she works for her father, which makes it even more impractical.

I do agree he is verbally abusive, but again, she is not much better......

Oh.

I actually do think it was the first thing Jamie decided with respect to Elizabeth. Remember after the wedding when her father had that "little talk" with Jamie,  basically a warning, saying, "She's still my girl and I've got my eye on you!"??  Well, right after that, Jamie made a "talking head" comment (and I certainly don't recall the words) but it was something to the effect of "I'll have to do something about that..." And I completely agree with everyone, that Daddy Dearest came off as creepy --but something about Jamie's "talking head" response didn't set right with me, either. 

I think that's how her father and the relationship between Beth and her father first became a "thing" between them. In the beginning, I didn't think much about it beyond agreeing that the old guy is weird. But later, when they had their first ugly argument, Jamie kept battering at her (verbally) about her father, and her working for her father, and what was her Daddy paying her to do, etc. And it was definitely way over-the top...

Edited August 28, 2019 by Crazy Bird Lady

[Crazy Bird Lady]

On 8/26/2019 at 5:07 PM, humbleopinion said:

 What was the end of the story?

Did she have abdominal surgery to remove it from her stomach?

Did her mother have to collect her poos for a couple of days and searched for the quarter until it was passed?

Did the doctor  grab the coin with an endoscope's basket from her stomach?

Iris is all about the dramatic prelude and buildup...and Keith aptly punctuated the lame story well...lights out for him....

Actually, Humbleopinion, I've seen a quarter removed from an 8-year-old kid's esophagus. It was done by endoscopy. Of course, that might not have been what happened with Iris, but it seems like a pretty good bet.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Crazy Bird Lady
typo

[Ilovepie]

1 hour ago, Crazy Bird Lady said:

I actually do think it was the first thing Jamie decided with respect to Elizabeth. Remember after the wedding when her father had that "little talk" with Jamie,  basically a warning, saying, "She's still my girl and I've got my eye on you!"??  Well, right after that, Jamie made a "talking head" comment (and I certainly don't recall the words) but it was something to the effect of "I'll have to do something about that..." And I completely agree with everyone, that Daddy Dearest came off as creepy --but something about Jamie's "talking head" response didn't set right with me, either. 

I think that's how her father and the relationship between Beth and her father first became a "thing" between them. In the beginning, I didn't think much about it beyond agreeing that the old guy is weird. But later, when they had their first ugly argument, Jamie kept battering at her (verbally) about her father, and her working for her father, and what was her Daddy paying her to do, etc. And it was definitely way over-the top...

I think at the point the wedding occurred, I was with Jamie that the relationship between Liz and her dad is too much. Between the car tags at the reception, the inappropriate conversations between him and his new father in law, plus the weird breakfast, I was thinking he responded pretty well considering how creepy the dad was being. I think he had every right to be concerned about who Liz's priority would be, and to me, he isn't wrong that it should be her husband and not her dad. But he lost me when he attacked her about working for her dad and not finishing college just because he was mad she asked about his parent's divorce. It's only gone downhill since then and I think he's a total creep. But again, she's no prize either...........

[LennieBriscoe]

I don't think Jamie is an abuser in the way it's defined herein. I furthermore don't believe Big Red would tolerate abuse one iota, and certainly not on a show where she has the opportunity to inform the "experts" as well as the entire viewing audience. And though her hair color is enhanced, I don't think she is elsewhere. She's simply zaftig. 

But come to think about the couples' employment situations: Why is it important to anyone  that Elizabeth be a "successful businesswoman"? Whatever happened to Matt's "car detailing" plans? Why haven't we seen more of Keith and music beyond the record albums Iris gave him? What does Jamie do, again? What kind of agreement did Amber have with her school district, given that in RL classes are back in session? 

[lh25]

On 8/26/2019 at 10:27 PM, Jassie99 said:

And I clearly saw off the bat that Greg was joking so again I think it was a bit reaching in the edit.

I really thought Deonna was in on it as well.  It looked to me like she was hiding a smile behind her wine glass.

On 8/27/2019 at 5:24 AM, NowVoyager said:

Um. Did anyone else notice that when Jamie cashed in one of his anniversary sex coupons he walked into the bedroom with a dog leash?!

Yes, and I don't even want to know!

[sasha206]

On 8/28/2019 at 4:16 PM, gonecrackers said:

Jamie was nasty toward Liz with regard to her working for daddy. It's one thing to question or take interest, but he was, again, mean in his way about him. That nasty, mean way about him follows through in other arguments - calling her a c**t isn't acceptable in any circumstances, but he barely knew her at that point. It does make me wonder what he'll be saying (or doing) if they stay married 10-20yrs (no, no, noooooooo!!!).  The 'experts' have no business trying to help these two do anything anymore but pack & file for divorce.

I think he was nasty toward her about her working situation because he probably doesn't believe she really does any work.  She could barely articulate what she does for her dad.  

But yeah, he's a fucking jerk and calling her the C word was unacceptable!  Both of them are passive aggressive assholes.