THT: Plot Holes, Plot Armor, and Other Things a 2nd Year Film Student Could Do Better

[Cranberry]

Looks like our old hate thread was lost in a forum glitch that randomly deleted a number of topics across multiple forums. This is the new thread! If anyone has a suggestion for a catchier title, I'd be happy to change it.

If you're discussing an episode and you find yourself swerving away from the topic of that episode to complain about the show in general, bring that here!

[Umbelina]

I think we can answer that question pretty easily.

What do we hate about the show?  The showrunners/writers.

[Anela]

I thought something was missing from my front page, but I can't figure out if a forum disappeared, or if the look just changed slightly.

[AnswersWanted]

Oh no...so much beautiful, glorious hate, lost to the interwebs forever...a moment of silence please...heh. 

[chocolatine]

This entire season.

[AnswersWanted]

Just when I thought I couldn't stand Bruce Miller any less, he goes and does this.

Okay, just...this is real, guys. Somehow, this is real...

The Handmaid's Tale's Showrunner Shares What Keeps June Alive

I...I've gone choleric again, I think I popped a blood vessel from internally raging so hard. 

Quote

Miller said June’s survival is partially because Gilead is short on fertile women, and also because she knows how to ally herself with powerful people. But in the end, the main reason June survives is because we already know she survived.

So now he's back to claiming there is a shortage of handmaids even after we saw a goddamm massive hoard of them in DC, sure.

Yeah...fine.

Oh, and he also claims that: 

Quote

I think June is very wise as a character to take chances, but take the smallest chance she possibly can. So, she tries to reinforce herself with coverage, and she’s got in this season...last season, she had Fred and Serena, who were both her adversaries and her protectors. Aunt Lydia, who’s both her adversary and her protector. And this season she has more people, Commander Lawrence, who’s both her adversary and her protector, and Marthas as well.

...was he high when he gave this interview?

Just feeling all the good vibrations he forgot what show and character he was supposed to be talking about? 

June is very wise...?

She takes small chances...?

This is madness!

This has to be the most trolling interview he's given to date.

They should have just put up a picture of him with both middle fingers up, laughing, surrounded by money. 

But I can't even get worked up about that too much, because this mf-er actually said this next:

Quote

“We’re telling the story about the person who survived to tell us our story. When we start the series, we hear her talking to us, she’s talking to us from the future,” Miller told io9. “She’s telling the story in retrospect. We know she went through it. So, no matter how she navigates through she is going to make it through because that’s the story we’ve been given to tell.”

...so lemme get this straight.

Bruce Miller is basically telling us that since we know June "survives", supposedly, we just need to chalk everything up to happenstance,  it doesn't really matter what's written on the show or how many times she fucks up royally or how many times she openly breaks the rules.

She is going to live because it's already been predestined and therefore no other outcome can reached, bullshit writing and plots be damned. 

He is literally and figuratively incapable of writing anything that could interfere with June's survival.

It's just not POSSIBLE.

Now in the book: 

Spoiler

Atwood only made it clear the narrator made tapes that were eventually discovered in the future. We knew she had to have made them after the van had come to take her away, but there was no clear, definitive moment that told us she did in fact escape Gilead and "survived". 

Dear sweet teenage jesus on a moped, mother Atwood must be crying blood tears right now. 

I never thought he would actually give us such a shitty, fucking copout, this really surprised me.

He is officially the worst.

At what exactly? I am just going to say "all the things", full stop. 

Edited July 12, 2019 by AnswersWanted

[Umbelina]

As I said, the writers/showrunner sucks.

It's a real pity this historic novel is in his hands.  He doesn't get that he needn't make June stupid, or set up a "Perils of Pauline" like show. 

While I agree that last season she was pregnant, thus pretty protected, and then Emily's out of the blue savior (or plot armor) saved her, and then saved June as well? 

There is absolutely no need to constantly put June in idiotic situations, like the school this season. 

Maybe there are signs of hope and glimmers of a real story to be told this season, but in his hands?  It will probably be blown. 

I wish the interviewer had asked about all the other ridiculous "saves" of this guy.  Serena, Fred, Moira, Emily, Janine, Luke, Nick...basically the entire main cast except for Aunt Lydia has had repeated plot armor saves.

It's very difficult to take him seriously, or not to dislike him.

Edited July 12, 2019 by Umbelina
added stuff

[AnswersWanted]

In that interview Miller sunk to a whole new low for me. 

Even if I still had any hope for this season to somehow make a miraculous come back, and I absolutely do not, but it I did this interview would have dashed it all to bits and pieces. 

In fact I would be furious for an entirely different reason.

For him to practically say "fuck it, she lives because the story says so, the end", to me he might as well be telling me to shove it.

I'd be the one still trying to give his ass the benefit of the doubt, trying to trust the process and his end game, but this is how he'd repay my good faith and viewership loyalty? GTFO with that mess.

 Miller clearly has no respect for the audience, I'm convinced of that.

It's one thing if he felt people don't agree with his vision or his take on Atwood's work and he defended himself against the criticism, but he wants to basically wash his hands of his own writing choices and decisions, and is unabashedly saying anyone who has an issue with the terrible plots needs to chill by implying the method to his madness is that he's working with a predetermined ending, and that isn't even true. 

He has personally made or directly been involved in all the major decisions for this show, even when using Atwood's direct writings, but especially now he is the main head writer in control.

No wonder the writing keeps punking us, because this jerk is a punk. 

[chaifan]

On 7/10/2019 at 8:33 PM, Cranberry said:

Looks like our old hate thread was lost in a forum glitch that randomly deleted a number of topics across multiple forums. This is the new thread! If anyone has a suggestion for a catchier title, I'd be happy to change it.

If you're discussing an episode and you find yourself swerving away from the topic of that episode to complain about the show in general, bring that here!

Suggestions for this thread title:

A)  "Hey!  Bruce Miller!  Are you reading this?"

B) "The Margaret Atwood Originalist Fan Club"

C) "Oh, Please, Not Another Elizabeth Moss Close-up!"

D) "Plot Holes, Plot Armor, and Other Things a 2nd Year Film Student Could Do Better"

[chaifan]

Thanks @Cranberry!  I'm honored!

[Umbelina]

Great title!

Bruce Miller just sucks as a showrunner/writer, and he doesn't seem to realize that.

Plot Armor and Plot Holes are constant, and they have happened with every single core character on screen except Aunt Lydia.

It's just horrible writing, because he doesn't need huge 'PERIL!!!' scenes and most of the time they make no sense anyway.  Worse than that?  He sets it all up, we have a "cliffhanger" all the damn time, and there is absolutely no resolution or even slightly satisfactory resolution of that peril.  It is often handwaved away with a brief comment by someone.

For example, Fred and Serena have incredibly well done scenes while June listens in hiding in that house.  They are terrified!  It's all falling apart!  They are in a great deal of danger now, and they fight believably.  Ditto Nick, who we see roughly hauled away by Guardians.  To add insult to injury in all of this, Bruce Miller (once again) makes his lead character completely stupid by delaying Hannah's leave-taking, which doesn't ADD tension at all, it just makes people want to slap her.

So, he successfully entertained us (I was entertained for the most part) and I was waiting to see the next episode and the horrifying consequences for Fred, Serena, and Nick.  What would happen?  How will they get out of this seemingly unsolvable mess?  Will this be the time Fred hangs, and Serena goes to work at Jezebels?

Nah.  Zero pay off.  In the next episode there is a very short hand wave statement from Fred.  All fixed!  No problem! 

I mean seriously WTF?  You don't bait and switch an audience, you don't get to do things like this and have no payoff! 

Bruce does this crap all the damn time, generally with June, while simultaneously making her do idiotic things (like make love to the wall at the school.)  WHAT?  No chance, not any chance, unless you want us to believe your lead character is as brain damaged as Janeen.

The saddest part of all?  Gilead is inherently dangerous, the perils exist, and in a much scarier way, in day to day "normality" there.  You don't need these contrived BIG PERIL OH NO WHAT WILL HAPPEN?!? stories.  Every step, every look, every sigh, every word is a danger for women there. 

If written correctly that is enough.  If he must do his cliffhanger BIG PERIL scenes, make them rare, and give them their damn pay off, resolution, follow through.  (Fred's disastrous trip to Canada anyone?)

I still see more signs of hope in Season 3, or at least the stuff I want to see, the world of Gilead, the wars, the power structure, the inside peek at the Aunts, and I love that June has crossed over to Emily/Moira/Janeen/Suicide Bomber space. 

If only they could do it right.

As the title of this thread says, it's all RIGHT THERE already, how is it possible that Bruce Miller keeps fucking it up in every possible way?  I generally don't believe that average viewers could write a better story than showrunners, I tend to think of that as hubris a bit.  In this case?  Many people could, even now, this is salvageable, but with him at the helm? 

It's a long shot.

[alexvillage]

On 7/11/2019 at 11:58 PM, AnswersWanted said:

Just when I thought I couldn't stand Bruce Miller any less, he goes and does this.

Okay, just...this is real, guys. Somehow, this is real...

The Handmaid's Tale's Showrunner Shares What Keeps June Alive

I...I've gone choleric again, I think I popped a blood vessel from internally raging so hard. 

So now he's back to claiming there is a shortage of handmaids even after we saw a goddamm massive hoard of them in DC, sure.

Yeah...fine.

Oh, and he also claims that: 

...was he high when he gave this interview?

Just feeling all the good vibrations he forgot what show and character he was supposed to be talking about? 

June is very wise...?

She takes small chances...?

This is madness!

This has to be the most trolling interview he's given to date.

They should have just put up a picture of him with both middle fingers up, laughing, surrounded by money. 

But I can't even get worked up about that too much, because this mf-er actually said this next:

...so lemme get this straight.

Bruce Miller is basically telling us that since we know June "survives", supposedly, we just need to chalk everything up to happenstance,  it doesn't really matter what's written on the show or how many times she fucks up royally or how many times she openly breaks the rules.

She is going to live because it's already been predestined and therefore no other outcome can reached, bullshit writing and plots be damned. 

He is literally and figuratively incapable of writing anything that could interfere with June's survival.

It's just not POSSIBLE.

Now in the book: 

  Reveal spoiler

Atwood only made it clear the narrator made tapes that were eventually discovered in the future. We knew she had to have made them after the van had come to take her away, but there was no clear, definitive moment that told us she did in fact escape Gilead and "survived". 

Dear sweet teenage jesus on a moped, mother Atwood must be crying blood tears right now. 

I never thought he would actually give us such a shitty, fucking copout, this really surprised me.

He is officially the worst.

At what exactly? I am just going to say "all the things", full stop. 

So, June survives because she is fertile and then the handmaid who had three kids and is pregnant gets shot? Is that what happened? yEah, it makes total sense.

👏👏👏  your whole post.

June survives because she is not only June, she is a main character who knows she is the main character.

At this point I guess it is fair to speculate if Miscavige has something on the showrunners. Or maybe it is Hubbard himself. Who knows? Tethans, cultists, the hole...Do we have to start a "save Miller" campaign to see if he gets his sense back?

[kieyra]

I’m disconnected from most of social media because I can’t handle the alternate timeline we’ve slipped into now. I do see that some typical mainstream sites (like A.V. Club) are calling bullshit on this show as much as we are. But the typically “woke” (I think?) Vulture site seems to be treating it like it’s still a finely crafted prestige drama. It calls the shooting scene at the end of Unfit, specifically the cheezy “bonnet’s-eye view”, one of the best scenes of the series. 

I guess my question is ... what does the twitterverse think of it?

Are protestors still using Handmaid costumes for women’s rights marches? 

Have people generally figured out that the show has jumped the shark? Or is it one of those things like TWD or GoT that started so big that people will stick with it forever just because of the OMGWTF moments?

[Slovenly Muse]

Ok, I JUST started watching Season 3 about a week ago (for some reason I had a really hard time psyching myself up for it), and I'm all caught up now. My first impressions of the season were that the writing was VERY weak, full of holes and dumb decisions to the point of being nearly nonsensical. I did some IMDB research to see who the hell was writing this stuff, and I discovered a couple of things.:

First, the season has more female writers credited than I expected. I'm not sure how this compares to previous seasons, but nearly all the episodes this season have at least one female writer credited. So that is progress! (But that doesn't change the fact that Bruce needs replacing ASAP, because he doesn't have the vision to continue this show.)

Second, none of the writers I looked at had any writing credits for prestige dramas. In fact, most of the writers were fairly new to the industry, and had only two or three previous credits that were all mostly network popcorn-television aimed at teenagers, like "Supergirl," "Eureka," "The 100," "Alphas," and "Moonlight" (The vampire detective show, not the famous "Moonlighting"). Most, I assume, worked with Bruce when he was a producer on some of those shows. I'm glad female writers are being given this boost, and I hope putting Handmaid's Tale on their resume will launch them to better things, but no wonder this show is struggling to find nuanced messages, meaningful twists, and a consistent voice, when most of the episodes are written by someone who came from a kid-friendly kooky superhero-type show and was told, "Make this sound like Margaret Atwood."

I have nothing against kid-friendly kooky superhero shows. Those are some of my favourite shows! But a prestige drama like The Handmaid's Tale, which has a responsibility to portray an extremely relevant, urgent social issue in a sensitive and realistic manner, has a whole different set of requirements, and it's obvious that most of the writers are out of their wheelhouse. I blame Bruce, of course, since it's his job to give the writers a strong and consistent vision to work towards, and plot-wise, this thing is endlessly spinning its wheels and gives them little to work with.

On the OTHER hand, for a show that has received so much awards attention, I find it hard to believe they couldn't attract more established, experienced writers, who could craft a real point of view on these issues. Or maybe Bruce pushed to hire more female writers, and this is just a reflection of the sad state of the availability of female writers in TV. In either case, it explains so much about why this season isn't working for me (apart from the general lack of logical consistency with season one... you know: THE NOVEL). Part of me wants to see the show find its footing and recover, but most of me just wants Hulu to put this beast out of its misery, before it becomes too much of a punchline.

[Brn2bwild]

1 minute ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Second, none of the writers I looked at had any writing credits for prestige dramas. In fact, most of the writers were fairly new to the industry, and had only two or three previous credits that were all mostly network popcorn-television aimed at teenagers, like "Supergirl," "Eureka," "The 100," "Alphas," and "Moonlight" (The vampire detective show, not the famous "Moonlighting"). Most, I assume, worked with Bruce when he was a producer on some of those shows. I'm glad female writers are being given this boost, and I hope putting Handmaid's Tale on their resume will launch them to better things, but no wonder this show is struggling to find nuanced messages, meaningful twists, and a consistent voice, when most of the episodes are written by someone who came from a kid-friendly kooky superhero-type show and was told, "Make this sound like Margaret Atwood."

If you think about it, how many of the prestige dramas we've watched over the years were written by women?  The ones who did/do write them tend to be the showrunners, so they wouldn't be available for shows like this.  There may not have been enough women with significant prestige drama experience.

[Slovenly Muse]

4 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

If you think about it, how many of the prestige dramas we've watched over the years were written by women?  The ones who did/do write them tend to be the showrunners, so they wouldn't be available for shows like this.  There may not have been enough women with significant prestige drama experience.

Yes! That's what I was getting at with "the sad state of the availability of female writers," but you put it so much better. If this is a reflection of WHO they could get when looking for women specifically, it says a lot about the kind of writing jobs women can get in the industry, and how few women writers there are compared to men. BUT, many of this season's writers worked on shows where Bruce was a producer, so it ALSO looks like he didn't cast a very wide net, but just picked up people he already knew. So it might be a little of this, a little of that.

[Umbelina]

22 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

If you think about it, how many of the prestige dramas we've watched over the years were written by women?  The ones who did/do write them tend to be the showrunners, so they wouldn't be available for shows like this.  There may not have been enough women with significant prestige drama experience.

Not surprisingly, Vince Gillegan has hired several amazing female writers, I'm so used to listening to the DVD commentaries, and most of the time, when a woman is there (often) it's a female writer or editor or director (or actress of course.)

[alexvillage]

5 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Or maybe Bruce pushed to hire more female writers, and this is just a reflection of the sad state of the availability of female writers in TV. In either case, it explains so much about why this season isn't working for me (apart from the general lack of logical consistency with season one... you know: THE NOVEL). Part of me wants to see the show find its footing and recover, but most of me just wants Hulu to put this beast out of its misery, before it becomes too much of a punchline.

Or maybe he wanted t hire them but is the controlling type that doesn't really care about the ideas, only the appearances. For what I have seen/read about him and his excuses for the poor job he does, he is the mansplaining type, the clueless type. 

[red12]

This video basically encapsulates 90% of why I cannot with this show anymore. It covers more than privilege even though that is the main thrust of it.

[Umbelina]

(Note, the above video contains book spoilers, the only spoilers I've tagged in this are book spoilers, which honestly, I think just about everyone knows about anyway by now...)

She kind of lost me with "Does Massachusetts border Canada?" and "I haven't read the book."  I was also bored with her recap of the whole series, but I can see why she put it in there, this is obviously also for people that haven't read the book or watched the show as well.

I agree with her that the show made a huge mistake in ignoring the significant issues of

Spoiler

race and "the Children of Ham" being shipped off to the colonies (including crop growing colonies as well as cleaning up Nuclear Waste colonies.)  Having Gilead not be full of racists

is offensive to me, and in my opinion was a direct response to "Oscars So White."

I disagree that Emily has had more story than Moira though.

I also agree with her that the stories for June have become ridiculous, but I don't think that is "White Woman Privilege" but rather, "she's the star of the show and we are crap writers who only know how to do PERIL, but not how to resolve it and keep our lead character alive."

As far as the treatment of Natalie?  She was a guest player, much like Nick's wife.  Guest characters (someone coming on for several episodes but then is gone) don't get a lot of screen time or character development.

Are the optics bad that "June gets black people killed?"  Probably.  Does that mean black people can't be villains or heroes or die?  Either this show can attempt to be colorblind or not.  If they are?  Black people can also be snitches, or doing the brave dangerous work of being in the resistance (as the Muslim man was.)  It's not just black people hanging on the walls or being killed in this version of Gilead.

It was a huge mistake to make Gilead

Spoiler

"color blind"

and along with the terrible writing?  They've created more issues than they were trying to avoid.  This could have still been an integrated show, we could have seen the same flashbacks of Moira, we could have seen Moira in the

Spoiler

Crop Growing colonies,

We could have seen Black resistance there, we could still have seen her transferred to Jezebels, and escape.  We would have still had Luke, but added in

Spoiler

racism as a reason they were taking June's child away (but then again, no Commander's family in Gilead would raise a black child.

The entire point of the book was that the

Spoiler

WHITE race was dying out.  POC were thriving in other places and didn't have birth rate issues.  Gilead was straight up Nazi, or White Supremacist,

cloaked in God. 

Leaving that out in order to appease backlash over racism on the show backfired. 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Umbelina
added spoiler tags

[red12]

Umbelina, I absolutely agree the video has rambling parts and I tuned out for much of the recap. The core that I agree with though is that colorblind doesn't work in the context of this work especially when much of the oppression and violence specifically calls back to actual experiences of black people in this country. 

Also, many times attempts by white writers at colorblind with no knowledgeable black people involved still include racist imagery because unconscious bias is a thing. An example for me is the treatment of Luke's black ex-wife in the first season. 

No one expects black actors to never get opportunities to play villains or victims. But, stuff like making one of the few black background characters a former crack addicted sex worker who loves Giliad and rapes because free room and board? That's just lazy and shitty.

I understand there is no perfect work but, these writers don't appear educated at all about the context of the story they are telling nor do they seem to care.

[Umbelina]

I agree with that.

The important story Atwood told about Racism and Misogyny going hand in hand was left by the wayside, and I was pissed from the beginning (which I could verify if this whole thread hadn't been wiped out.)

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and their idiotic intention to avoid backlash from the Oscars So White issues, along with randomly throwing guest actors into the story who die, and some of whom are black?  What will this backlash do?  Have them only cast black actors in minor stories where they don't die?  It's a vicious circle when they go down that road.

For example, I'll use two characters she talked about in the video.

Character description for roles:

Handmaid:  Compelling actress who seems to be true believer, several pregnancies, snitch, will be ostracized after her snitching is revealed, go a little crazy by that and the fears that this baby is a girl, shoot a guard, and die in the end.

Resistance Driver:  Secret Muslim Econohusband with wife and child who helps the resistance, things go wrong, as they do, and he needs to bring June back to his home because the connection point is compromised.  He will need to make the choice of letting her die, or saving her.  In the end, off screen, he is caught and killed.

Is the answer supposed to be that the casting director and showrunner should be damn sure that no person of color is even considered for those roles?

Nick's wife also came in for a short term role, to die in the end (and if we go with that "because of June" crap that is said in that video and elsewhere, instead of "because of GILEAD" that it is?)  I guess they are damn lucky they hired a white girl for that role, or we would have more "proof" of their racism.

It's a double edged sword here...all because they didn't address a serious issue addressed in the book, and they COULD have done that, look how quickly we are in Canada, and we WERE at a colony, at least one kind, and then there are freedom fighters who certainly would include POC, as well as all the flashbacks.  This could have told the story without having an all white cast...but they chickened out.

ETA I would have loved to see the

Spoiler

crop growing colonies

by the way, but again, imagine the images of

Spoiler

black people working in the fields,

again the showrunner chickened out.   Personally, I think it should have been told, along with stories of heroism and resistance.  But no, let's all pretend that racism doesn't exist, and didn't exist in Gilead or even the USA...EVER. 

sure.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Umbelina
tagged book thing

[Joana]

I can absolutely see why their decision to present Gilead as some sort of a post-racial society would be so controversial, but IMO, once they made it, they should have stuck with it in spite of the criticism. If inserting flippant throwaway lines about "a couple not wanting a handmaid of colour" is their idea of tackling the racial issues, they really should not have even bothered. 

I can't help but think how bizarre it is that June is somehow involved in the deaths of THREE black persons by now. I really don't think it was done on purpose (because, really, what kind of message would it send?!), but then again, I can't imagine they're not aware of just how it might come across. So, I'm really confused about that one.

Natalie's storyline was executed incredibly poorly, there's no doubt about that. She was basically this season's Eden, and while with Eden 1.0 there was at least a half-assed attempt to show us some of her backstory and an insight into her personality, all of that was completely lacking with Natalie. We have zero knowledge about her motivations. Why did she snitch on June? Because she was brainwashed by Aunt Lydia? Because she was a sadistic bitch who secretly reveled in other people's misfortune? Because she was genuinely concerned that June's non-plan would get her killed and wanted to save her life? We don't know and now we never will.

What I disagree, though, is the comparison to Janine's situation in S1. One was about to jump off a bridge, the other was wielding a gun. That's a pretty big difference. Yes, pregnant handmaids are incredibly important and valuable for Gilead, but I don't think they're important enough to be allowed to go on a shooting spree. She could have killed everyone in sight and then shot herself. What good would her pregnancy be for then? It's understandable why the guardians had to react, but unceremoniously dragging her body across the store like that was a total overkill and wholly unnecessary. 

[Umbelina]

On 7/10/2019 at 5:33 PM, Cranberry said:

Looks like our old hate thread was lost in a forum glitch that randomly deleted a number of topics across multiple forums. This is the new thread! If anyone has a suggestion for a catchier title, I'd be happy to change it.

If you're discussing an episode and you find yourself swerving away from the topic of that episode to complain about the show in general, bring that here!

Thanks for this thread!  I'm sorry the other one is gone.

What do you think about tagging it "book talk" so we don't have to spoiler tag the issues of race as being handled by these writers?

[Umbelina]

21 minutes ago, Joana said:

I can absolutely see why their decision to present Gilead as some sort of a post-racial society would be so controversial, but IMO, once they made it, they should have stuck with it in spite of the criticism. If inserting flippant throwaway lines about "a couple not wanting a handmaid of colour" is their idea of tackling the racial issues, they really should not have even bothered. 

Seriously!  What the hell was that?

Also, by the way, it wasn't just Gilead that was colorblind, apparently the entire USA was as well, before Gilead took over. 

21 minutes ago, Joana said:

Natalie's storyline was executed incredibly poorly, there's no doubt about that. She was basically this season's Eden, and while with Eden 1.0 there was at least a half-assed attempt to show us some of her backstory and an insight into her personality, all of that was completely lacking with Natalie. We have zero knowledge about her motivations. Why did she snitch on June? Because she was brainwashed by Aunt Lydia? Because she was a sadistic bitch who secretly reveled in other people's misfortune? Because she was genuinely concerned that June's non-plan would get her killed and wanted to save her life? We don't know and now we never will.

It was a great role, a meaty role that she really nailed.  I think most up and coming actresses of any color would have loved to play this part.

Most of the stuff we learned about Eden came after her death though.  Her family visited and there was that whole horrible scene with her dad, and then June found her bible while packing up her things, and she and Serena saw that Eden was reading and writing both (obviously against the rules) and was very devout.  Those were the scenes, as I recall that fleshed her out more, and she was already dead.

We didn't really get to see her love affair with that guardian either, frankly, I mostly remember that she liked the color yellow, and was raised on a farm.  She wasn't fleshed out either, which was especially odd in the love affair part, since she ends up dead from that, and all we saw was a chaste kiss, and him complimenting her a few times.

I do hope we see more of Natalie's story, which, with this damn show's love of flashbacks is certainly possible.  Aunt Lydia or another handmaid who knew her back in training or something, hopefully with Ashleigh LaThrop actually appearing in scenes, rather than, as with Eden, people just talking about her.  After all, Natalie now has several babies out there, so she was handmaid to some of Serena's friends...there are ways.

Either way, she did a great job, and hopefully more work will come for her.

ETA

Thanks for the "book talk" tag @Cranberry!  I'd remove my previous spoiler tags if I had the slightest clue how to do that.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Umbelina
clarity

[Umbelina]

It starts off poorly, "June blames OfMathew, another lady of color on the show, for NO REASON."  Umm, hello?  She was a snitch and her snitching directly led to that Martha, Francis, being hung.

Maybe it will get better as it goes along...

Right now it feels like two oblivious white chicks who brought in a black chick to balance out their ignoring race issues on this show for so long. 

Either way, obviously this issue, long ignored, is now exploding in the face of the white male "colorblind" showrunner trying to write about women and people of color.

Which?  Is good.

ETA

The guest commentator is fabulous so far.  Which almost is making up for the other two.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

From links at the bottom of the above interview.  This is just a sample, there are more.

By the way, I adored the guest on that show, the two others?  Not so much.  I liked so much of what she said, for example, the perspective that as a black child, you learn early on to cooperate with police, as partially motivation for Natalie's snitching, that wasn't address, and especially that Bruce Miller CAN NOT FIX THIS and has too much of an ego to hire people who could...(see the video a year ago with him about this here:  https://tv.avclub.com/the-handmaid-s-tale-showrunner-bruce-miller-says-theyre-1825535699)

'The Handmaid's Tale' Still Hasn't Fixed Its Race Problem And probably never will

A must read: 

Another article by the same writer:

Respect, Just a Little Bit: On White Feminism and How “The Handmaid’s Tale” is Being Weaponized Against Women of Color

Quote

Miller’s conceit was that Atwood’s handmaid, named June in the TV series, has a best friend, a husband and a daughter who are black. An intriguing, potentially profound choice — in the right hands. Miller’s dilemma is that he never conceived of a way to integrate these black American characters into Atwood’s fundamentalist society. Finally exasperated, oblivious or both, Miller threw up his hands and chose not to explore racism in Gilead at all. Miller lets race ride, and despite the great talent on the screen, both behind and in front of the camera, the show, founded on this bedrock of disbelief, suffers greatly for it. A fundamentalist Christian American society conceived without racism might as well have dancing unicorns, winged horses, and magic flying carpets. It is the stuff of fantasy, child’s play.

We need to invite him here!

Quote

Ofmatthew is presented without irony, and she’s annoying as fuck —she’s the the student in high school who rubs it in, reminding you when you fail the test that there was plenty of time to study and that she began reading the asssignment three weeks ago. I prayed that this character would reveal an ironic, nuanced side, as I just couldn’t imagine that Miller & Co. would serve us this abominable black person after we’d been starving for authentic representation on the show for years.

I don’t need Cleopatra Jones, by the way, for me to be satisfied with a black female character, karate-chopping and shooting her way to glory. And I don’t want to suggest that every black woman must be portrayed heroically, because that means falling into a different trap. There are black women all over the world who are addicted to religion, who have been brainwashed or who use the church to mitigate their own pain and to harm others. But I wanted someone I could empathize with, root for, created with the same sensitivity afforded characters like Emily and Janine. Given the history of enslaved black women in this country and black women who have had to protect their children from everything from malnutrition to street violence to police brutality, I found it incredible that Bruce Miller found the one black woman in the world who seemed delighted to give her children away. (There are suggestions that Ofmatthew is traumatized, but she never reveals herself, she never lets her guard down. She is a pariah amongst the other women: the moment anyone tries to connect, she goes into “Stepford” mode.)

He also recommends the podcasts of Vegan Warrior Princesses Attack! So I'm linking one here:  https://podcasts.google.com/?feed=aHR0cDovL3ZlZ2Fud2FycmlvcnByaW5jZXNzZXNhdHRhY2suY29tL2ZlZWQvcG9kY2FzdC8&episode=aHR0cDovL3ZlZ2Fud2FycmlvcnByaW5jZXNzZXNhdHRhY2suY29tLz9wPTM0MTY&at=1563494819866

They talk about many problems in the show, religion, age, race, and the way they're portraying homosexuals. 

ETA

These women are great by the way, I'm still listening and now they are going to town on how ridiculous June's character is being written, and I'm (literally) laughing out loud in places.  Like now.  Ha!

Edited July 19, 2019 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

Why did we never see Fred even react to learning that Nick fathered June's baby?

This control freak who thought of June as his property would have gone ballistic that she'd even had sex with another man.  Then his WIFE tells him (so she knows, and has been lying to him for a very long time) and he, doesn't react to finding out she KNEW?  That's he's basically the laughingstock of his house?

[alexvillage]

15 hours ago, Joana said:

I can absolutely see why their decision to present Gilead as some sort of a post-racial society would be so controversial, but IMO, once they made it, they should have stuck with it in spite of the criticism. If inserting flippant throwaway lines about "a couple not wanting a handmaid of colour" is their idea of tackling the racial issues, they really should not have even bothered. 

Yes, absolutely right. And if they wanted to include people of color, particularly black people, they could have kept an All White Gilead, given the resistance black leadership and actually done something with that story. Instead, they decided to focus on the handmaid telling a tale that is so boring and repetitive, while having so little in common with the original intent of the book and even with what I thought was the original intent of the show. In fact, each episode seems to have little to do with the previous one.

The show runners are a messed up group of bad-at-their-jobs people who hire bad writers. The result is what I no longer watch, but that seems to be in a fast nose dive.

[kieyra]

On 7/17/2019 at 12:56 AM, Slovenly Muse said:

Ok, I JUST started watching Season 3 about a week ago (for some reason I had a really hard time psyching myself up for it), and I'm all caught up now. My first impressions of the season were that the writing was VERY weak, full of holes and dumb decisions to the point of being nearly nonsensical. I did some IMDB research to see who the hell was writing this stuff, and I discovered a couple of things.:

First, the season has more female writers credited than I expected. I'm not sure how this compares to previous seasons, but nearly all the episodes this season have at least one female writer credited. So that is progress! (But that doesn't change the fact that Bruce needs replacing ASAP, because he doesn't have the vision to continue this show.)

I went down this same rabbit hole myself last week, and was also surprised to see any female writing credits. But I was also surprised to see that Miller's own resume is extremely thin, aside from The 100 (which explains how he scooped up some other CW/genre writers).

I don't know how he got this gig at all; or the money to make the show look, on the surface, like a prestige drama. 

(But those juvenile ending shots of June gazing into the camera with steely resolve and 1980s pop songs make more sense when you're thinking in CW terms.)

Edited July 19, 2019 by kieyra

[chaifan]

I don't have as big as a quibble over the elimination of the race plot from the book.  (I think this has been discussed so many times in various threads I don't see it as a spoiler, so I'm not marking it.  If mods disagree, feel free to add a spoiler tag.)  I think it was almost necessary from two perspectives:  first, time.  That would have been a whole plot line of its own, and there just isn't enough time in 10-13 episodes a year.  Putting it in and giving it only a cursory mention would have been worse in my opinion.  Second, as the first season showrunners noted, eliminating that aspect of the book allowed for more diverse casting.  The story has been shifted to today's time (vs. the 80's) and I think diverse casting helps reflect that.  Also, Atwood was very much on board for the first season, so I have to believe this all had her blessing.

I don't think the change was meant to portray Gilead as color blind, so I'm ok with the Aunt's comment that a family didn't want a black handmaid.  I don't think Gilead has to be 100% racially split or 100% colorblind.  It reflects where we're at today - some people are racists, most (I think, I hope) aren't. 

As for how minority characters are treated on the show, I think there's no perfect solution that would make everyone happy.  If no black characters died, then people would complain that they're all being given extra special plot armor because of their race.  Kill them off, and people complain they are being targeted because of their race.  It's a no win situation.  I'm not saying things are perfect or that the writers couldn't do better in this respect.  I would like to see a black commander and/or high ranking wife (or have we seen one, and I've forgotten?)

[Ashforth]

23 hours ago, chaifan said:

I don't have as big as a quibble over the elimination of the race plot from the book.  (I think this has been discussed so many times in various threads I don't see it as a spoiler, so I'm not marking it.  If mods disagree, feel free to add a spoiler tag.)  I think it was almost necessary from two perspectives:  first, time.  That would have been a whole plot line of its own, and there just isn't enough time in 10-13 episodes a year.  Putting it in and giving it only a cursory mention would have been worse in my opinion.  Second, as the first season showrunners noted, eliminating that aspect of the book allowed for more diverse casting.  The story has been shifted to today's time (vs. the 80's) and I think diverse casting helps reflect that.  Also, Atwood was very much on board for the first season, so I have to believe this all had her blessing.

I don't think the change was meant to portray Gilead as color blind, so I'm ok with the Aunt's comment that a family didn't want a black handmaid.  I don't think Gilead has to be 100% racially split or 100% colorblind.  It reflects where we're at today - some people are racists, most (I think, I hope) aren't. 

As for how minority characters are treated on the show, I think there's no perfect solution that would make everyone happy.  If no black characters died, then people would complain that they're all being given extra special plot armor because of their race.  Kill them off, and people complain they are being targeted because of their race.  It's a no win situation.  I'm not saying things are perfect or that the writers couldn't do better in this respect.  I would like to see a black commander and/or high ranking wife (or have we seen one, and I've forgotten?)

I believe we did see a newly promoted Black Commander in S2 and Fred congratulated him because his wife was pregnant. I think this was during the Eden episodes, maybe the wedding ceremony one in which she was married to... who was that guy? The one who was June's babydaddy and secretly a huge bigwig and then disappeared without a trace? Big bushy eyebrows... Nick! That's it! Nick.

[Umbelina]

After reading those articles I linked above, I really see their point though.

Miller didn't just make this world "colorblind" and it wasn't even just a Gilead thing.  He set this show in modern day USA, and made the USA "colorblind" as well.  Which is frankly, ridiculous, and insulting, and they cite several areas where this blows up in his face.

Basically he's a white male writing about female oppression, and trying to avoid racial issues, while, at the same time, writing in a "sassy, great white character" who defies all the rules, rules which, but his earlier cannon should have her killed several times over, and then keeps writing in black characters to act as her servants/subjects or be killed, in part, due to "defiant June's" actions.

There IS no defiance in Gilead.  It gets you killed. 

WHY are all these women so intent on helping June at peril to their own lives?  Why was her baby the important one to save? 

Anyway, I highly recommend listening to a few of those above, or reading them.  They say it all much better than I am trying to do.

To compound matters, Miller DOES write in black characters, but mostly to kill.  Natalie could have been a great story, why was she so compliant, was it cultural conditioning?  What made her into a snitch?  (One of those above talks in depth about being told from a very young age never to argue with a cop for example.)

Basically, Miller has no idea how to understand the feelings of the oppressed, be they women or POC, and it shows, over and over again.  Indeed, he's making things worse with his choices. 

They also talk a bit about Emily, saying they've given her 4 or 5 different handmaid's stories, that should have been spread out, and that she's another example of his terrible biases and lack of vision here. 

They also talk in depth about his endless focusing on the oppressor's stories, instead of the oppressed, which they point out COULD work, if it was about the power structure in Gilead and providing us real answers, but it's not.  He just seems to be much more interested in the characters with power.

I need coffee...but I really recommend those articles above.

[mamadrama]

I hate June this season, and because of that I find myself rage watching instead of hate watching.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Are you making this face when watching?

[mamadrama]

21 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Are you making this face when watching?

Absolutely. 

Last week my 8 yo daughter and I tried to make a drinking game (Coke)out of the viewing. We were meant to take a drink every time they did a close up on June's face. 15 minutes into it and we were both facing bladder infections. 

[AnswersWanted]

I don’t want to merely rant in the episode thread while this blessed oasis sits idly by, heh. 

And really this complaint is about the current episode but it really goes for this whole season. 

June is plot lucky, period.

She just can’t lose, it’s not even possible her plan won’t work, the show clearly is going to make her a winner. 

The very fact they had her trying to break into Lawrence’s file cabinets and she was caught, but it was by Mrs. Lawrence who was manic but still just lucid enough to assist June in her search of finding files that it’s a total stretch Joseph would even have in the first place, yeah, no, to me it’s a cheap attempt to try and wrap up a shitty season with a high note for the “hero”. 

As far as I’m concerned this recent episode might be the worst to date, it had the desperate air of a poorly written fanfic that just “has to have a good ending”.

I’ll pass. 

I have never needed my stories baby fed to me as basic fodder, either write with forethought and creative intentions or fuck all the way off. 

[Joana]

It's really unbelievable how incoherent this show has become. There are wild swings literally from one episode to another. 

Fred is about to be put on the Wall for his staggering incompetence. -> Fred is the second most important person in the country.

Washington is an ultra conservative place. -> They hold swinger parties and the Wives there act like the Sex and the City gang.

Commander Lawrence is untouchable. -> Commander Lawrence is humiliated in the most brutal way.

Commander Meloni is super pious. -> Commander Meloni is gay. OK, I see where they're going with this, but there was a time this show was above tired tropes. Or so I thought.

Aunt Lydia almost beats Janine to death. -> Aunt Lydia fights tooth and nail to defend Janine in the face of the most powerful person in the whole country.

And that's without even getting into June's storylines. I really want to see this show through, but man, they're making it so difficult. 

Also, I really, really hate that you just know Janine is going to die a tragic/heroic death saving those children.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Joana

[kieyra]

Wrong thread.

Edited July 25, 2019 by kieyra

[Quickbeam]

Sorry, I thought this was the episode thread....

Edited July 25, 2019 by Quickbeam

[greekmom]

One thing that really bothers me and was never addressed in the book is the fact that the wives are all for being celibate for the rest of their lives.  I mean there are circumstances where couples have dips and valleys in their sex lives but one would think that most wives wouldn't want to be absent from it for the rest of their lives.

(and bonking your drivers on the side ala Washington wives) doesn't count. 

[chaifan]

8 hours ago, greekmom said:

One thing that really bothers me and was never addressed in the book is the fact that the wives are all for being celibate for the rest of their lives.  I mean there are circumstances where couples have dips and valleys in their sex lives but one would think that most wives wouldn't want to be absent from it for the rest of their lives.

(and bonking your drivers on the side ala Washington wives) doesn't count. 

I look at the wives celibacy sort of like the ban on reading - they weren't consulted, they didn't have a say in it, or if they did, it was posed in a way that they didn't really realize what the end ramifications would be for them.  So I don't think they're "all for it".  It is what it is, and those who manage to work around it can and do.

Technically, the commanders are also quasi-celibate, as they are only supposed to perform the monthly ceremony with the handmaids.  Yes, there is Jezebel's, but from what we saw of it in season 1, it couldn't possibly be open to every commander (just a numbers game here).  So it's for the more elite commanders.  And everyone else is limited to sex during marriage, just for procreation purposes.  I have to guess no one else signed off on this in the creation of Gilead.

[alexvillage]

10 hours ago, chaifan said:

I look at the wives celibacy sort of like the ban on reading - they weren't consulted, they didn't have a say in it, or if they did, it was posed in a way that they didn't really realize what the end ramifications would be for them.  So I don't think they're "all for it".  It is what it is, and those who manage to work around it can and do.

Technically, the commanders are also quasi-celibate, as they are only supposed to perform the monthly ceremony with the handmaids.  Yes, there is Jezebel's, but from what we saw of it in season 1, it couldn't possibly be open to every commander (just a numbers game here).  So it's for the more elite commanders.  And everyone else is limited to sex during marriage, just for procreation purposes.  I have to guess no one else signed off on this in the creation of Gilead.

This concept is, in the book, another one of Margaret Atwood genius playing. It is a not so veiled analogy to the world in the 80's. Puritanism has always plagued this part of the continent and even tough she is Canadian, she understood the rise of the evangelical purists, and the hypocrisy behind them. To a certain extent, some places in Europe followed the US in this quest, not as much as in the religious part, but in the adjacent issues that came with it. 

[AnswersWanted]

This is a gripe I have about the whole kids' rescue/escape, and that is just what is the long game here?

The resistance obviously have been too smart to try and pull off something of this scale, and frankly it's an incredibly shortsighted move all things considered. 

Yes, they would get out 52 kids, but how many more will be left behind and they will surely suffer for this.

 They'd be put under lock and key and held under even stricter watch, there's no way Gilead won't lose their shit over this. 

And speaking of that, once the regime realizes what's happened they wouldn't hesitate to begin slaughtering people, determined to get to the bottom of how this could happen and who helped. 

Also also, how tough of a spot does this put Canada and the US in?

They have no clue what June has planned, they certainly haven't signed off on it or have prepared for it, and they just got Serena and Fred, these kids are going to throw everything off if this happens.

They think they have bargaining chips and an in into Gilead intel, but if those kids arrive Gilead is going to make sure Canada and the US know that they're fucking around with fire. 

Gilead, supposedly, can still intimidate a lot based on their power and nukes and whatever else, they would not just hand wave the fact that their neighbor to the North has taken in their "stolen kids". 

I doubt the show cares about any of this, but honestly this plan, should it succeed, would destroy a lot of progress that's been made, both in Gilead and across the border.

Gilead will be enraged and ready to take action, that's a deadly thought for a country that still has so much fire power and so many people still enslaved and helpless within its' borders. 

[Umbelina]

Yes, June should have definitely called ahead and asked to speak with the Canadian government or the USA.

Oh, wait.

The resistance is all in on this now by the way.  They have signed off on this.

What's Gilead going to do?  Bomb their own children?  

Freedom fighting IS messy, it's never a sure thing, people do die, which is a sure thing.  That doesn't mean it's best to just sit around and bemoan it.  If you are brave enough, you do something.  The Martha's are brave, as are many handmaids including June, as are all the citizens still fighting Gilead in wars.  The pilot and guy at Jezebels are probably just greedy, but it takes all kinds.

Many died during the slavery underground railroad as well, but they kept trying, and they did take whole groups when they could.  Revolution takes all kinds of people, and overthrowing tyranny is always messy and dangerous.  People do risk their lives to help others and to be free.

[mamadrama]

3 hours ago, AnswersWanted said:

This is a gripe I have about the whole kids' rescue/escape, and that is just what is the long game here?

The resistance obviously have been too smart to try and pull off something of this scale, and frankly it's an incredibly shortsighted move all things considered. 

Yes, they would get out 52 kids, but how many more will be left behind and they will surely suffer for this.

 They'd be put under lock and key and held under even stricter watch, there's no way Gilead won't lose their shit over this. 

And speaking of that, once the regime realizes what's happened they wouldn't hesitate to begin slaughtering people, determined to get to the bottom of how this could happen and who helped. 

Also also, how tough of a spot does this put Canada and the US in?

They have no clue what June has planned, they certainly haven't signed off on it or have prepared for it, and they just got Serena and Fred, these kids are going to throw everything off if this happens.

They think they have bargaining chips and an in into Gilead intel, but if those kids arrive Gilead is going to make sure Canada and the US know that they're fucking around with fire. 

Gilead, supposedly, can still intimidate a lot based on their power and nukes and whatever else, they would not just hand wave the fact that their neighbor to the North has taken in their "stolen kids". 

I doubt the show cares about any of this, but honestly this plan, should it succeed, would destroy a lot of progress that's been made, both in Gilead and across the border.

Gilead will be enraged and ready to take action, that's a deadly thought for a country that still has so much fire power and so many people still enslaved and helpless within its' borders. 

I've been griping about this, too. The logistics alone are crazy. 

I've worked with resettlement of refugees and it is NOT a easy, organized process. It's not like babies and kids come in and the community is all, "Oh, sweet little kids! I'll take 10!"There's an actual process involved. We have provided temporary housing to refugees from Bosnia, Kosovo, and Iran in the past and I know what I'm talking about. For that number of people, they'd need folks ready and waiting on the Canada side to process them and organize their needs. I can almost guarantee that the writers and showrunner have never worked with refugees. 

I'm starting to doubt that they've even worked around children. Anyone who thinks that it will be easy to get 50+ children up in the middle of the night to sneak them across town and load onto a plane in a stealthy manner probably does not have a lot of experience with kids in general. It's a bit like herding cats, even with the good ones. Look at how difficult it was for June, a single adult, to get across town using the Martha network. A diversion had to be created and she had to dodge guards, flashlights, dogs,etc. And, again, she was alone. All it takes is for ONE child to call out in fear or confusion and suddenly the whole household is awake and calls are being sent out across town. Just one. 

I think the show is enamored with the plot like-Marthas and a Handmaid rescue 52 kids! But I've seen zero thought going into the process. I HAVE seen people defending the idea by saying "well they probably", but that doesn't cut it for me. We shouldn't have to make up our own explanations and plot points to fill in the gap. There's ambiguous and then there's just plain old bad writing. 

[Umbelina]

Well, hopefully they show us "the rest of the story" in the finale.  I didn't really expect them to give it all away.  

It could be a complete mess, or unbelievable, or both, but I've been impressed (finally!) the last few episodes, so I'm hopeful.  As long as they don't have it all run smoothly that is, which WOULD be unbelievable.

[AnswersWanted]

I don't expect June to have connections, or to be thinking ahead to such a degree.

We've already established that she has shit all skills when it comes to laying out a plan or focusing on potential long term consequences.

What I would expect, however, are the people with connections to know that this plan is pretty much a humongous game changer that could prove far more costly than what it's actually worth.

Let's be clear, June came up with this so called "plan" thanks to a half baked, delirious idea she thought up during a hospital stay one day. 

She can have all the dreams and delusions she wants to, the resistance really had no reason to implode their current set up because one handmaid thinks 52 kids is worth it.

They did so because of the plot, nothing more. 

Weighing all the variables is exactly what keeps freedom fighters and resistance movements going, the ability to know when some things, and yes that does include lives, can't be spared for the sake of the larger picture, for the larger group to survive and make it out. 

Do you try to get 52 kids out only to ensure 500 or 5,000 suffer in their stead and potentially lose their own chances at freedom if you have long term goals? Do you do for the few at the expense of the many? 

In what way has the resistance been doing nothing? They have done a lot with what limited resources they have, and inspite of how many of their group ended up dead just this season. 

They have been playing the long game, they have been getting supplies in, many desperately needed like medications that have been banned, and people, and letters, out when possible, they weren't just standing about twindling their thumbs until June suddenly came along to give them her supreme guidance.  

These Marthas' and whomever else have been fearless badasses long before June joined the charge, and her idea isn't what makes a resistance movement or defines what it's supposed to be.

It's a kamikaze ploy that ends up with a lot of important bodies to the cause lost and they're irreplaceable. 

June's plan fundamentally is flawed, it's the ultimate suicide mission and it still wouldn't get those kids out. So what's the point? 

Why wouldn't Gilead get bomb happy at this point? Frankly they have nothing to lose, they need to display a show of force because shit is getting real and they'd be worried about more targeted attacks.

They know Canada has Serena and Fred, they also think they somehow got Commander Keller as well, and now they're facing losing 52 kids? They'd be ready to go HAM. 

Plus there's nothing that says they'd have to worry about bombing the kids themselves, they would have plenty of targets and the US and Canada would be all too aware of that, and so would the rest of the world as a matter of fact. 

Now I am well aware this plan is solely the show's idea of moving its plot forward and giving June further "badass" status, so I've no doubt it "can work" on the show. 

But realistically the idea is shit, it wouldn't work, and it'd decimate an entire helpmate network that's already struggling as is. 

@mamadrama, I wish I could give your post a whole box of chocolates, heh. 

The logistics of this "plan" are truly nonexistent. 

The underground railroad did not work independently from those in the North, that's the only reason it was so successful.

They had those connections, those safe houses, they had those hidden agents, the abolitionists, all throughout the south helping to guide them and protect them along the way, and most importantly they did have men in power, holding powerful positions who were willing to do the right thing and help get people to freedom. 

Gilead has practically none of that, that we've seen so far. Canada nor the US seem to have many, if any, boots on the ground in Gilead itself, and they basically have done shit all except wait for any potential escapees to come to them, they hardly are lending a helping hand getting them out as part of a large scale operation. 

The idea June and her crew could just load up a plane with these kiddos and drop it into Canada's lap like this is absurd.

It's not about right or wrong, imo, it's just fictional bs for a world that claims to be based on reality. There is absolutely nothing realistic about it. 

We are talking a general diplomatic nightmare just from the onslaught, we're talking closed borders, mass murders, potential threats of military retaliation, the list goes on and on. 

And you are so right about the kids themselves being one of the largest and honestly most insurmountable challenges about the whole idea. 

Truthfully they'd need to drug those kids, as you said just the slightest bit of fussing, crying, talking, or really any unnecessary noises couldn't be risked. 

These kids are young and obviously inexperienced, telling them to be quiet is just not good enough, telling them to go with complete strangers they don't know is also rubbish, some of these kids will be too young to have known any other life, or parents, they can't just be ripped out of their homes without protest. 

But if they were drugged then walking with them would become impossible so they would then need to use some type of vehicle big enough to carry them, well there goes the plan before they even get started.

No vehicle,  especially one of the necessary size, could make such a stop and go journey all across Gilead, in the night, without raising all the red flags. 

They might get to the first house if they were lucky and then be surrounded within minutes. 

One thing the underground railroad didn't have to account for, among many things, were guard patrols with assault rifles on every corner. 

Personally I an confident that if the show wants this idea to work they will make it so, they are not above writing shit to just happen for "reasons", that's been the whole season. 

It doesn't change the fact it'd literally be impossible to pull off the way they seem to imply it can be, but we've seen June take down a full grown man with a pen already, what's 52 kids on a plane?

Like snakes but only even more unbelievable. 

[alexvillage]

2 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I can almost guarantee that the writers and showrunner have never worked with refugees. 

Or listened to women. Or read history. Or understood the meaning behind the masterpiece they decided to steal the name of to completely sabotage.

I will say it again: this whole plot is an perfect analogy to the whitewashing of the history of slaves in this country. Harriet Tubman created a whole system to save slaves and former slaves, it was messy and frustrating. Then a bunch of white man got credit for "working things out" via laws that had loopholes still hurting people today. 

June is basically the old white privileged man in this story. The writers don't get it.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, alexvillage said:

Or listened to women. Or read history. Or understood the meaning behind the masterpiece they decided to steal the name of to completely sabotage.

I will say it again: this whole plot is an perfect analogy to the whitewashing of the history of slaves in this country. Harriet Tubman created a whole system to save slaves and former slaves, it was messy and frustrating. Then a bunch of white man got credit for "working things out" via laws that had loopholes still hurting people today. 

June is basically the old white privileged man in this story. The writers don't get it.

That's the crazy thing-they really DON'T get it. They seem to be totally oblivious. Not only do they not see these issues, they're busy patting themselves on the back for how creative this all is.